throbber
Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 1 of 207
` 963
`NACMBAN1
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
`------------------------------x
`
`UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
`
` v. 22 CR 673 (LAK)
`
`SAMUEL BANKMAN-FRIED,
`
` Defendant. Trial
`------------------------------x
`
` New York, N.Y.
` October 12, 2023
` 9:30 a.m.
`
`
`10
`
`Before:
`
`11
`
`
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`HON. LEWIS A. KAPLAN,
`
`
` District Judge
`
`
`APPEARANCES
`
`
`DAMIAN WILLIAMS
` United States Attorney for the
` Southern District of New York
`BY: DANIELLE R. SASSOON
` NICOLAS ROOS
` DANIELLE KUDLA
` SAMUEL RAYMOND
` THANE REHN
` Assistant United States Attorneys
`
`COHEN & GRESSER, LLP
` Attorneys for Defendant
`BY: MARK S. COHEN
` CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL
` SRI K. KUEHNLENZ
` DAVID F. LISNER
`
`Also Present:
`Luke Booth, FBI
`Kristin Allain, FBI
`Arjun Ahuja, USAO Paralegal Specialist
`Grant Bianco, USAO Paralegal Specialist
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 2 of 207
` 964
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
`(Trial resumed; jury present)
`
`THE COURT: The defendant and the jurors all are
`
` 3
`
`present, as they have been throughout.
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
`Ms. Ellison, you are still under oath.
`
`Mr. Cohen, you may proceed.
`
`MR. COHEN: Thank you, your Honor.
`
` 7
`
`CAROLINE ELLISON, resumed.
`
` 8
`
`CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
`
` 9
`
`BY MR. COHEN:
`
`10
`
`Q. Good morning, Ms. Ellison?
`
`11
`
`A. Good morning.
`
`12
`
`Q. I want to just briefly touch on what we were speaking about
`
`13
`
`yesterday?
`
`14
`
`A. Yes.
`
`15
`
`Q. That's the difference between the fiat@ account and the
`
`16
`
`info@ account.
`
`17
`
`A. OK.
`
`18
`
`Q. Now, the fiat account was an account that received fiat
`
`19
`
`dollars, British pounds, so on, correct?
`
`20
`
`A. Are you referring to the bank account?
`
`21
`
`Q. Yes. I didn't mean to interrupt.
`
`22
`
`A. You're referring to the bank account?
`
`23
`
`Q. Yes.
`
`24
`
`A. Which bank account?
`
`25
`
`Q. The Alameda bank account or the North Dimension bank
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 3 of 207
` 965
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`account.
`
` 2
`
`A. Yes. Alameda and North Dimension both had several bank
`
` 3
`
`accounts.
`
` 4
`
`Q. Those are the accounts that received the fiat deposits,
`
` 5
`
`correct?
`
` 6
`
`A. Yes. At times they received fiat deposits for at least
`
` 7
`
`some FTX customers.
`
` 8
`
`Q. Now, explain to us what the term fiat underscore -- FTX
`
` 9
`
`underscore fiat referred to.
`
`10
`
`A. That referred to Alameda's account on FTX that tracked the
`
`11
`
`fiat deposits that Alameda was receiving in its North Dimension
`
`12
`
`bank accounts.
`
`13
`
`Q. That was on the Alameda account on FTX, correct?
`
`14
`
`A. That's right.
`
`15
`
`Q. The info account?
`
`16
`
`17
`
`THE COURT: Excuse me. Let's try to clarify a little.
`
`When you talk about the FTX underscore fiat account,
`
`18
`
`are you talking about a bank account or an account on the books
`
`19
`
`and records maintained by FTX, or both?
`
`20
`
`THE WITNESS: I was referring to an account on FTX,
`
`21
`
`not a bank account.
`
`22
`
`THE COURT: Let's try to be clear.
`
`23
`
`Q. You meant a ledger entry, correct?
`
`24
`
`A. Yeah.
`
`25
`
`Q. Now, the info@ account was Alameda's account for trading on
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 4 of 207
` 966
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`FTX, the exchange, is that correct?
`
` 2
`
`A. It was our main account for trading on FTX, yes.
`
` 3
`
`Q. Fair enough. It was a main account and it also had sub
`
` 4
`
`accounts.
`
` 5
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
` 6
`
`Q. And it had about 200 subaccounts?
`
` 7
`
`A. I don't know the exact number.
`
` 8
`
`Q. Ballpark.
`
` 9
`
`A. Yeah. It had at least dozens of subaccounts, I would say.
`
`10
`
`THE COURT: Again, just for clarity, the info@ account
`
`11
`
`was an account in the sense of a customer account with FTX,
`
`12
`
`right?
`
`13
`
`14
`
`THE WITNESS: That's correct.
`
`THE COURT: Not a bank account and not a ledger
`
`15
`
`account on somebody's books. Yes?
`
`16
`
`17
`
`THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right.
`
`THE COURT: OK.
`
`18
`
`Q. So when Alameda made trades on the FTX exchange, they would
`
`19
`
`be reflected -- to follow up on your Honor's question, they
`
`20
`
`would be reflected in the info@ account?
`
`21
`
`A. Most of our trades, yes. We also do trades on other
`
`22
`
`accounts at various times.
`
`23
`
`Q. And you also did trades on other exchanges?
`
`24
`
`A. That's right.
`
`25
`
`Q. Now, I want to go back, Ms. Ellison, to some of the
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 5 of 207
` 967
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`testimony you gave here on Tuesday about sort of the early
`
` 2
`
`days. I don't intend to repeat all of it, but there are a few
`
` 3
`
`things I would like to go over with you, if that's OK.
`
` 4
`
`A. Yup.
`
` 5
`
`Q. You testified that you joined Alameda in about 2018, is
`
` 6
`
`that correct?
`
` 7
`
`A. That's right.
`
` 8
`
`Q. And you testified that sometime after you joined you
`
` 9
`
`learned that there had been prior issues at Alameda, correct?
`
`10
`
`A. That's right.
`
`11
`
`Q. And you were concerned with the defendant not telling you
`
`12
`
`about them, correct?
`
`13
`
`A. Yes, I was.
`
`14
`
`Q. And one of the issues you mentioned was that there had been
`
`15
`
`disputes among the various people at Alameda, correct?
`
`16
`
`A. That's right.
`
`17
`
`Q. Is it fair to say, Ms. Ellison, that after you had been at
`
`18
`
`Alameda for a time you came to understand more about what had
`
`19
`
`happened?
`
`20
`
`A. Yes, that's fair to say.
`
`21
`
`22
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. Relevance.
`
`THE COURT: It has been answered. Overruled.
`
`23
`
`Q. Did you come to a view that Sam had been correct about many
`
`24
`
`of the issues he first talked to you about?
`
`25
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. Relevance.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 6 of 207
` 968
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`THE COURT: What's the relevance, Mr. Cohen?
`
`MR. COHEN: Your Honor, can we come up to the sidebar?
`
`THE COURT: We are not going -- yes, but we are not
`
` 4
`
`going to do this on every question.
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`MR. COHEN: I would prefer not to.
`
`(Continued on next page)
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 7 of 207
` 969
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
`(At sidebar)
`
`MR. COHEN: It's one more question, first of all.
`
`THE COURT: Always good to know.
`
`MR. COHEN: The implication or the inference that the
`
` 5
`
`government sought yesterday in its examination about this topic
`
` 6
`
`was that Mr. Bankman-Fried had a pattern of being reckless and
`
` 7
`
`deceitful that went back even to the early days of Alameda.
`
` 8
`
`What this witness I believe will answer, certainly if
`
` 9
`
`she is consistent with the 3500, is that after she came to
`
`10
`
`understand what had happened, she believed he was right about
`
`11
`
`the dispute.
`
`12
`
`MS. SASSOON: This information was elicited yesterday
`
`13
`
`or Tuesday from the witness with respect to her relationship
`
`14
`
`with the defendant and his failure to disclose to her the
`
`15
`
`financial state of Alameda when she joined or when she
`
`16
`
`apologized after for concealing from her, not the merits of any
`
`17
`
`underlying dispute that gave rise to Alameda being in a worse
`
`18
`
`financial situation when she arrived which had not been shared
`
`19
`
`with her.
`
`20
`
`Her view on that situation, whatever view she formed,
`
`21
`
`was formed on hearsay conversations with the defendant, no
`
`22
`
`firsthand knowledge of what actually occurred. It's
`
`23
`
`irrelevant, it's based on hearsay, and the pending question is
`
`24
`
`vague because I think the question was: And what was your view
`
`25
`
`about the things that were talked about. Who even knows what
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 8 of 207
` 970
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`that is referring to.
`
` 2
`
`MR. COHEN: The issue with that proffer is that's not
`
` 3
`
`what she elicited. She elicited testimony about a dispute
`
` 4
`
`between employees. It wasn't just about the financial
`
` 5
`
`situation of Alameda. That just wasn't -- could have been
`
` 6
`
`limited that way, but it wasn't.
`
` 7
`
`So we are left with the implication that from jump my
`
` 8
`
`client was misleading her about fundamental things that,
`
` 9
`
`according to the 3500, when she came to understand it, she
`
`10
`
`didn't believe he was misleading her. That's fair cross, your
`
`11
`
`Honor.
`
`12
`
`MS. SASSOON: Your Honor, the appropriate way to
`
`13
`
`address that was to make an objection and ask for a limiting
`
`14
`
`instruction that it wasn't being offered for the truth. To now
`
`15
`
`get into the underlying merits of that dispute and any view she
`
`16
`
`formed based on self-serving hearsay statements from the
`
`17
`
`defendant is irrelevant and based on hearsay.
`
`18
`
`MR. COHEN: Your Honor, we are not limited to the
`
`19
`
`government's theory of the case. We are allowed to put on a
`
`20
`
`defense. We are allowed to cover topics that have been covered
`
`21
`
`before and to put our view of what happened across.
`
`22
`
`I have to say, I can't think of a trial I've done
`
`23
`
`where we are being told we have to limit our cross to only what
`
`24
`
`was on the direct.
`
`25
`
`THE COURT: I can't think of that actually occurring
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 9 of 207
` 971
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`in this case.
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
`MR. COHEN: Then I withdraw that remark.
`
`THE COURT: And properly so.
`
`I will allow the one additional question and the
`
` 5
`
`question pending, but that's it.
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`MR. COHEN: That's all I wanted to do.
`
`THE COURT: All right.
`
`(Continued on next page)
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 10 of 207
` 972
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
`(In open court)
`
`MR. COHEN: Would you read the question back, please.
`
` 3
`
`yes, sure.
`
` 4
`
`(Record read)
`
` 5
`
`A. Yes, I did come to that view.
`
` 6
`
`Q. Now, on Tuesday you gave us your views -- some of your
`
` 7
`
`views about Mr. Bankman-Fried. I want to just talk about a few
`
` 8
`
`of them. You described him to us. You told us he was
`
` 9
`
`ambitious and driven.
`
`10
`
`Do you recall that, Ms. Ellison?
`
`11
`
`A. Yeah. At least I recall saying that he was ambitious, but
`
`12
`
`I would also agree that he was driven.
`
`13
`
`Q. We can stay with ambitious. He worked very hard?
`
`14
`
`A. Yes.
`
`15
`
`Q. You worked very hard?
`
`16
`
`A. Yes, I did.
`
`17
`
`Q. Gary and Nishad also worked very hard?
`
`18
`
`A. Yes. I agree with that.
`
`19
`
`Q. You were all ambitious in your way, correct?
`
`20
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. Form.
`
`21
`
`Q. Were you ambitious, Ms. Ellison?
`
`22
`
`THE COURT: Overruled.
`
`23
`
`A. I didn't think of myself as ambitious before I started at
`
`24
`
`Alameda, but I think I became more ambitious as Sam encouraged
`
`25
`
`me in that.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 11 of 207
` 973
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`Q. After all, you and Sam and Gary and Nishad built two
`
` 2
`
`companies within three years, correct?
`
` 3
`
`A. That's right.
`
` 4
`
`Q. And prior to 2022, both of those companies were worth
`
` 5
`
`billions of dollars, correct?
`
` 6
`
`A. Yes.
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection.
`
`THE COURT: Sustained.
`
` 9
`
`Q. You also told us, Ms. Ellison, on Tuesday that you had --
`
`10
`
`you come to a view, based on your interactions with Sam, about
`
`11
`
`his view of risk.
`
`12
`
`You recall that testimony?
`
`13
`
`A. Yes, I do.
`
`14
`
`Q. Would it be fair to say that when it came to risk, business
`
`15
`
`risk, you were more conservative than he was.
`
`16
`
`A. Yes, that's fair to say.
`
`17
`
`Q. In your view, he was willing to take more business risk
`
`18
`
`than you were?
`
`19
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
`20
`
`Q. Did you have a view about Gary's willingness to take risks
`
`21
`
`from a business perspective?
`
`22
`
`23
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. Foundation.
`
`THE COURT: Sustained.
`
`24
`
`Q. Based on your interaction -- let me back up. How long did
`
`25
`
`you know Gary for?
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 12 of 207
` 974
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`A. I met him when I started at Alameda, so in 2018.
`
` 2
`
`Q. Based on your interactions with Gary, did you come to a
`
` 3
`
`view about his views about risk?
`
` 4
`
`A. I don't think I ever had a very clear impression of what
`
` 5
`
`his views on risk were.
`
` 6
`
`Q. Let's go back to your views of Sam. Is it fair to say,
`
` 7
`
`Ms. Ellison, that sometimes he took risks that you would not
`
` 8
`
`have taken?
`
` 9
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
`10
`
`Q. For example -- let me rephrase. Do you recall, in 2019,
`
`11
`
`when Alameda was already established, Mr. Bankman-Fried wanted
`
`12
`
`to start FTX?
`
`13
`
`A. Yes, I do.
`
`14
`
`Q. And you didn't think that was a good idea?
`
`15
`
`A. That's right.
`
`16
`
`Q. You thought that FTX might have problems getting customers,
`
`17
`
`for example?
`
`18
`
`A. Yes, I did.
`
`19
`
`Q. And that it might be a waste of time to start it?
`
`20
`
`A. Yes.
`
`21
`
`Q. That was one way in which you and he differed on the risk
`
`22
`
`around starting FTX?
`
`23
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
`24
`
`Q. Do you recall there was some testimony I think on Tuesday
`
`25
`
`and also Wednesday you gave about a token call -- not a token.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 13 of 207
` 975
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`About Solana.
`
` 2
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
` 3
`
`Q. What was Solana, just to remind us all?
`
` 4
`
`A. Solana was a Blockchain that Alameda built a token called
`
` 5
`
`Serum on and it was also a coin that Sam wanted to invest in.
`
` 6
`
`Q. You recall that, in your view, Solana at the time was not a
`
` 7
`
`good investment?
`
` 8
`
`A. I don't recall my exact view. I definitely recall that I
`
` 9
`
`was less excited about investing in Solana than Sam was.
`
`10
`
`Q. Fair enough.
`
`11
`
`And you were not excited about him buying it for one
`
`12
`
`dollar, correct?
`
`13
`
`A. I don't remember having an opinion on the one dollar price.
`
`14
`
`I do remember that there was a swap of Solana for Serum that I
`
`15
`
`was against because I thought it involved selling Serum at too
`
`16
`
`low of a price relative to Solana.
`
`17
`
`Q. Is it fair to say that over time, when you looked back,
`
`18
`
`sometimes your view of risk was correct compared to his?
`
`19
`
`A. Yeah.
`
`20
`
`Q. And sometimes his view of risk was correct compared to
`
`21
`
`yours?
`
`22
`
`A. Yeah. I think that's right.
`
`23
`
`Q. Now, you spoke, I think, Tuesday and also yesterday about
`
`24
`
`the fact that at times the job at Alameda could be very
`
`25
`
`stressful, is that correct?
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 14 of 207
` 976
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`A. Yes, I did.
`
` 2
`
`Q. Now, would you agree with me that you and Sam had different
`
` 3
`
`ways of reacting to stress?
`
` 4
`
`A. Yeah, I think so.
`
` 5
`
`Q. Now, you also told us Tuesday, and I think yesterday, you
`
` 6
`
`talked to us about Sam's interaction with the media.
`
` 7
`
`Do you recall that, ma'am?
`
` 8
`
`A. Yes, I do.
`
` 9
`
`Q. To contrast your styles, you were more of a
`
`10
`
`behind-the-scenes, not-be-out-in-the-media person?
`
`11
`
`A. That's right.
`
`12
`
`Q. That was your business style?
`
`13
`
`A. Yeah.
`
`14
`
`Q. His business style was to be more out in the media, more in
`
`15
`
`the public attention?
`
`16
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
`17
`
`Q. In and of itself, you didn't think there was anything wrong
`
`18
`
`with that?
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection.
`
`THE COURT: What's the objection?
`
`MS. SASSOON: Her view of whether there was anything
`
`22
`
`wrong with that.
`
`23
`
`THE COURT: Sustained.
`
`24
`
`Q. Now, you testified, I think it was Tuesday, maybe it was
`
`25
`
`Wednesday, that, in your view, Mr. Bankman-Fried also had a
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 15 of 207
` 977
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`certain personal style in terms of the kind of clothing he
`
` 2
`
`wore, correct?
`
` 3
`
`A. Yes.
`
` 4
`
`Q. And that was the T-shirts and shorts and so on?
`
` 5
`
`A. That's right.
`
` 6
`
`Q. And that was obviously different from your style?
`
` 7
`
`A. That's right.
`
` 8
`
`Q. And I think you told us that, in your view, this was
`
` 9
`
`something being done trying to promote the business of FTX?
`
`10
`
`11
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. Misstates her testimony.
`
`THE COURT: Sustained.
`
`12
`
`Q. Did you have a view of the style and whether it would
`
`13
`
`promote the business of FTX?
`
`14
`
`15
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. Relevance.
`
`THE COURT: Overruled.
`
`16
`
`A. I don't recall having a strong opinion on whether his style
`
`17
`
`was good or not for FTX. I thought it had some pros and cons.
`
`18
`
`Q. OK. Fair enough.
`
`19
`
`Let me move forward to some of the other topics you
`
`20
`
`covered on Tuesday. I am not going to go into them in the same
`
`21
`
`detail, but I want to go over a few things.
`
`22
`
`You came to Alameda in 2018, and I believe you told us
`
`23
`
`your first position was as a trader, is that correct?
`
`24
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
`25
`
`Q. And that you got the title of CEO or co-CEO in the summer
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 16 of 207
` 978
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`of 2021?
`
` 2
`
`A. That's right.
`
` 3
`
`Q. Let me step back a moment and call your attention to 2022.
`
` 4
`
`There is a person we have talked about in the case named Sam
`
` 5
`
`Trabucco.
`
` 6
`
`Do you recall that?
`
` 7
`
`A. Yes.
`
` 8
`
`Q. I think for convenience we are all referring to him as
`
` 9
`
`Trabucco because there is a lot of Sams.
`
`10
`
`A. Yeah.
`
`11
`
`Q. Is it fair to say, ma'am, that, in 2020, you and Trabucco
`
`12
`
`began running Alameda's day-to-day operations on a de facto
`
`13
`
`basis?
`
`14
`
`A. I would say, in 2020, Trabucco and I began handling a lot
`
`15
`
`of Alameda's day-to-day business.
`
`16
`
`Q. Mr. Bankman-Fried would check in with you?
`
`17
`
`A. Yes, he would.
`
`18
`
`Q. He might tell you things to do?
`
`19
`
`A. Yes.
`
`20
`
`Q. But he would also be absent for long periods of time,
`
`21
`
`correct?
`
`22
`
`A. There were periods of time when he wasn't paying much
`
`23
`
`attention to Alameda or talking to us much.
`
`24
`
`Q. And he would leave it to you and Trabucco?
`
`25
`
`A. Yeah.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 17 of 207
` 979
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`MR. COHEN: Can we pull up GX-25B in evidence.
`
` 2
`
`Q. You discussed this on your direct, Ms. Ellison. This is an
`
` 3
`
`example of some of the Google Docs entry you made, correct?
`
` 4
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
` 5
`
`Q. And I believe you told us it was your regular practice to
`
` 6
`
`make business-related notes in your Google Docs, correct?
`
` 7
`
`A. That's right.
`
` 8
`
`Q. And 25B is an example of that.
`
` 9
`
`A. Yes, it is.
`
`10
`
`MR. COHEN: Can we take that down for a moment and
`
`11
`
`pull up GX-64.
`
`12
`
`It's a multipage document. Can you please show
`
`13
`
`Ms. Ellison the multiple pages so she can see the whole thing.
`
`14
`
`And go back to the beginning, Brian, when you are done.
`
`15
`
`Q. Quick question. Is this another example, Ms. Ellison, of
`
`16
`
`the kind of business-related notes you would take in the Google
`
`17
`
`documents?
`
`18
`
`A. This looks like an update document that I would send to
`
`19
`
`Sam, as opposed to the personal notes I would just keep for
`
`20
`
`myself.
`
`21
`
`Q. This would be to update him on the business of Alameda,
`
`22
`
`correct?
`
`23
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
`24
`
`Q. And it was your regular practice to keep these kinds of
`
`25
`
`notes as well?
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 18 of 207
` 980
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
` 2
`
`MR. COHEN: Can we now call up just for the witness
`
` 3
`
`DX-10 for identification.
`
` 4
`
`Q. Take a moment to go through DX-10, Ms. Ellison. You can
`
` 5
`
`see the whole document. I just have some preliminary questions
`
` 6
`
`for you.
`
` 7
`
`THE COURT: Does this correspond to a tab in the book
`
` 8
`
`you have given me?
`
` 9
`
`10
`
`MR. COHEN: Yes, your Honor. I'm sorry. Tab 5.
`
`THE COURT: Thank you.
`
`11
`
`A. Could I see the second page again?
`
`12
`
`Q. Of course.
`
`13
`
`A. OK.
`
`14
`
`Q. Ms. Ellison, is it fair to say this is another entry in
`
`15
`
`your Google Docs relating to your views on the Alameda and FTX
`
`16
`
`business?
`
`17
`
`A. This is a Google Doc that I wrote to share with Alameda
`
`18
`
`employees.
`
`19
`
`Q. It is in connection with your business, correct?
`
`20
`
`A. Yes.
`
`21
`
`Q. Was it your regular practice to keep these kinds of
`
`22
`
`documents as well?
`
`23
`
`A. I wouldn't say I did this very frequently, but this was
`
`24
`
`addressing some upset feelings that various Alameda employees
`
`25
`
`had.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 19 of 207
` 981
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`Q. And did it reflect your intent and state of mind at the
`
` 2
`
`time relating to that situation with the employees?
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. Vague.
`
`THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
`
` 5
`
`Q. Did it reflect your intent regarding the business purposes
`
` 6
`
`of running the business of Alameda?
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
`MS. SASSOON: Same objection.
`
`THE COURT: Same ruling. Try again.
`
` 9
`
`Q. What did it reflect?
`
`10
`
`A. It was a message that I wanted to share with Alameda
`
`11
`
`employees to encourage them and improve their morale.
`
`12
`
`Q. And you were sharing it as a CEO of Alameda?
`
`13
`
`A. I don't recall if I was CEO already at the time or not.
`
`14
`
`Q. I believe we have a date. I am just looking for the date.
`
`15
`
`Let's see if that helps you, Ms. Ellison.
`
`16
`
`According to stipulation 2003 as to authenticity, this
`
`17
`
`is a document entitled EV of Alameda, dated July 22, 2021.
`
`18
`
`Does that help you, ma'am?
`
`19
`
`A. Yeah. My recollection is that I wasn't appointed co-CEO
`
`20
`
`until August of 2021. I am not totally sure about that.
`
`21
`
`Q. But it's in connection with your role in Alameda?
`
`22
`
`A. With my role in Alameda, yes.
`
`23
`
`24
`
`MR. COHEN: Your Honor, we offer DX-10.
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection. This does not satisfy 803(6)
`
`25
`
`or 803(3) and it's hearsay.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 20 of 207
` 982
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`THE COURT: Tell me what you think the 803(6) problem
`
` 2
`
`is, please.
`
` 3
`
`MS. SASSOON: Yes, your Honor. You'd like me to
`
` 4
`
`explain?
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
`THE COURT: Yes.
`
`MS. SASSOON: Although Ms. Ellison testified that she
`
` 7
`
`wrote this while at Alameda, a foundation has not been
`
` 8
`
`established that satisfies the four prerequisites of the rule.
`
` 9
`
`This document is unlike the others shown to Ms. Ellison. It is
`
`10
`
`not on her to-do list. It's not an update document to the
`
`11
`
`defendant.
`
`12
`
`13
`
`THE COURT: A little slower.
`
`MS. SASSOON: It's a document she said she wrote to
`
`14
`
`some of her Alameda employees, which she said she did not do
`
`15
`
`routinely, and in that sense it resembles an email created as
`
`16
`
`part of a business practice which your Honor in DLA Piper said
`
`17
`
`does not alone satisfy 803(6).
`
`18
`
`19
`
`THE COURT: And the other rule counsel cited was?
`
`MS. SASSOON: He did not cite 803(3), but one of the
`
`20
`
`sustained questions seemed to gesture at 803(3), and no
`
`21
`
`foundation with respect to this document overall or even a part
`
`22
`
`of it has been established as going to state of mind at this
`
`23
`
`time.
`
`24
`
`25
`
`THE COURT: Mr. Cohen.
`
`MR. COHEN: Yes, your Honor.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 21 of 207
` 983
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`With respect to the 803(6) ground, as I'm sure counsel
`
` 2
`
`is aware, the witness only has to say that it's part of the
`
` 3
`
`regular practice. It doesn't have to be done every day or
`
` 4
`
`every week or so forth, and I think there is sufficient
`
` 5
`
`foundation for that.
`
` 6
`
`With respect to 803(3) it goes to that existing state
`
` 7
`
`of mind.
`
` 8
`
`THE COURT: What's the relevance of her then existing
`
` 9
`
`state of mind?
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`MR. COHEN: Your Honor, can we approach?
`
`THE COURT: All right.
`
`(Continued on next page)
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 22 of 207
` 984
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`(At sidebar)
`
`MR. COHEN: Thank you, your Honor.
`
`A couple of things. There has been a lot of testimony
`
` 4
`
`elicited that Ms. Ellison was not running Alameda, that she was
`
` 5
`
`just taking instruction from the defendant.
`
` 6
`
`So on the relevancy ground we believe this document
`
` 7
`
`shows -- rebuts that. The government is free to argue that it
`
` 8
`
`doesn't, but we believe that it does. And as I am sure your
`
` 9
`
`Honor knows, we don't have to show that this was done once a
`
`10
`
`week, once a day, so forth. We just have to show there was a
`
`11
`
`regular practice of it.
`
`12
`
`As to her state of mind, this is a conspiracy case, as
`
`13
`
`I was reminded of by counsel yesterday, and I made an objection
`
`14
`
`to evidence coming in as to her state of mind, and her state of
`
`15
`
`mind as to what her relationship with Mr. Bankman-Fried was, in
`
`16
`
`particular when it came to running Alameda was relevant to the
`
`17
`
`case. The government says she really didn't run it. It's
`
`18
`
`their argument. We would like to put in evidence to show that
`
`19
`
`she did.
`
`20
`
`MS. SASSOON: I'll start with 803(3) first. That's
`
`21
`
`not an exception to the hearsay rule meant to swallow the rule
`
`22
`
`to put in any past statements by a witness.
`
`23
`
`This document has a number of assertions, like FTX
`
`24
`
`just raised a $18 billion valuation. How that goes to
`
`25
`
`Ms. Ellison's intent, plan or preparation under 803(3) is
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 23 of 207
` 985
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`beyond me, and that's true with a lot of the statements in this
`
` 2
`
`document, and defense counsel has not pointed to anything here
`
` 3
`
`that directly goes to Ms. Ellison's then present state of mind
`
` 4
`
`or intent under 803(3).
`
` 5
`
`As for 803(6), there are four requirements and it's
`
` 6
`
`not just that you created a document in the course of the
`
` 7
`
`business. It has to be shown that this type of document was
`
` 8
`
`maintained in the regular course of business, that it was a
`
` 9
`
`regular practice and it was made in the course of a regularly
`
`10
`
`conducted business activity. I don't think that that
`
`11
`
`foundation has been established. This is more equivalent to an
`
`12
`
`email of encouragement to her employees, as she described it.
`
`13
`
`And, finally, to the extent that defense counsel said
`
`14
`
`it is being offered to rebut the implication that she was not
`
`15
`
`running Alameda, they haven't said it's being offered as a
`
`16
`
`prior inconsistent statement or to impeach, and to establish
`
`17
`
`that additional questions would have to be asked that would
`
`18
`
`show this to be inconsistent with her testimony.
`
`19
`
`MR. COHEN: Your Honor, if it will make it easier for
`
`20
`
`the Court, the only passage I'm interested in is this one. I'm
`
`21
`
`interested in all, but primarily this one.
`
`22
`
`THE COURT: Counsel is referring to the page with the
`
`23
`
`Bates stamp ending in 470, starting with the sentence that
`
`24
`
`reads: The truth is, both have really high upside, and ending
`
`25
`
`with the word often three paragraphs later.
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 24 of 207
` 986
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`MS. SASSOON: May I respond to this?
`
`THE COURT: Let me just read it.
`
`MS. SASSOON: I believe the witness just testified
`
` 4
`
`that there were periods of time where the defendant was not
`
` 5
`
`paying attention to Alameda, so I don't think that any of her
`
` 6
`
`testimony at this point is inconsistent with this document.
`
` 7
`
`I think it would be appropriate to ask questions to
`
` 8
`
`elicit the type of information that's in this document, but I
`
` 9
`
`don't think there is an admissible basis at this point for this
`
`10
`
`portion of the document itself, whether to impeach as a prior
`
`11
`
`consistent statement or under the other rules we have been
`
`12
`
`discussing.
`
`13
`
`MR. COHEN: With respect, she gave the answer. Then
`
`14
`
`she qualified it.
`
`15
`
`16
`
`THE COURT: What answer did she qualify?
`
`MR. COHEN: She said that he was absent for long
`
`17
`
`periods of time but that she qualified that she wasn't sure
`
`18
`
`about that, which is inconsistent with this.
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`reflect.
`
`MS. SASSOON: I don't remember that testimony.
`
`THE COURT: Nor do I. But the transcript will
`
`22
`
`If there is a specific part that you want to offer,
`
`23
`
`let's address that, but at the moment you've offered the whole
`
`24
`
`thing.
`
`25
`
`MR. COHEN: Just the part that I showed your Honor is
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 25 of 207
` 987
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
`fine.
`
` 2
`
`MS. SASSOON: Your Honor, as now explained by the
`
` 3
`
`defense, they are trying to offer this for its truth. It
`
` 4
`
`certainly would not be admissible under 803(3).
`
` 5
`
`THE COURT: I agree with the last statement. My
`
` 6
`
`recollection of the testimony is that this was a document that
`
` 7
`
`she created to address what she understood to be some upset
`
` 8
`
`feelings at AR and that this was not something she regularly
`
` 9
`
`did. Am I mistaken?
`
`10
`
`MR. COHEN: I think -- as your Honor says, the
`
`11
`
`transcript controls, but I think what she said was that this is
`
`12
`
`not something she did, the kind of thing she did every day or
`
`13
`
`every month, but she did do on a regular basis at Alameda.
`
`14
`
`15
`
`THE COURT: Do you agree with that?
`
`MS. SASSOON: No. Mr. Cohen showed her three totally
`
`16
`
`different categories of documents, attempted to conflate the
`
`17
`
`three, and the witness resisted that and said no. This is not
`
`18
`
`like my update docs. This is not like my to-do list. This is
`
`19
`
`something maybe every once in a while I shared with my
`
`20
`
`employees for a specific purpose.
`
`THE COURT: Objection sustained.
`
`MR. COHEN: Thank you, your Honor.
`
`(Continued on next page)
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
`(212) 805-0300
`
`

`

`Case 1:22-cr-00673-LAK Document 362 Filed 12/12/23 Page 26 of 207
` 988
`NACMBAN1 Ellison - Cross
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
`(In open court)
`
`MR. COHEN: Could I have the question read back,
`
` 3
`
`question and answer read back from before the colloquy for the
`
` 4
`
`Court.
`
` 5
`
`MS. SASSOON: Objection, your Honor. It pertained to
`
` 6
`
`a document not in evidence.
`
` 7
`
`MR. COHEN: Before that, before the document was
`
` 8
`
`offered.
`
` 9
`
`10
`
`THE COURT: Then I don't know what you're asking.
`
`The very last question and answer before we wound up
`
`11
`
`in the sidebar was:
`
`12
`
`"Q. But it's in connection with your role in Alameda?
`
`13
`
`"A. With my role in Alameda, yes."
`
`14
`
`Q. Let me continue, Ms. Ellison, with the period in which you
`
`15
`
`and Mr. Trabucco, in 2020 going into 2021, when you were
`
`16
`
`handling day to day for Alameda.

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket