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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ___________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ___________
`
` INTELLECTUAL VENTURE MANAGEMENT, LLC
` Petitioner
`
` v.
`
` Patent of XILINX, INC.,
` Patent Owner
` ___________
`
` Case IPR2012-00018
` Patent 7,566,960
`
` and
`
` Case IPR2012-00019
` Patent 8,062,968
`
` Title: INTERPOSING STRUCTURE
` ___________
`
` ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`
`DEAN PAUL NEIKIRK, Ph.D., produced as a witness
`
`at the instance of the Petitioner, and duly
`
`sworn, was taken in the above-styled and
`
`numbered cause on the 16th of August, 2013,
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`from 9:04 a.m. to 11:34 a.m., before Daniel J.
`
`Skur, Notary Public and Certified Shorthand
`
`Reporter in and for the State of Texas,
`
`reported by stenographic means, at the offices
`
`of Haynes and Boone, 2505 North Plano Road,
`
`Suite 4000, Richardson, Texas, pursuant to the
`
`Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ___________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ___________
`
` INTELLECTUAL VENTURE MANAGEMENT, LLC
` Petitioner
`
` v.
`
` Patent of XILINX, INC.,
` Patent Owner
` ___________
`
` Case IPR2012-00018
` Patent 7,566,960
`
` and
`
` Case IPR2012-00019
` Patent 8,062,968
`
` Title: INTERPOSING STRUCTURE
` ___________
`
` ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`
`DEAN PAUL NEIKIRK, Ph.D., produced as a witness
`
`at the instance of the Petitioner, and duly
`
`sworn, was taken in the above-styled and
`
`numbered cause on the 16th of August, 2013,
`
`from 9:04 a.m. to 11:34 a.m., before Daniel J.
`
`Skur, Notary Public and Certified Shorthand
`
`Reporter in and for the State of Texas,
`
`reported by stenographic means, at the offices
`
`of Haynes and Boone, 2505 North Plano Road,
`
`Suite 4000, Richardson, Texas, pursuant to the
`
`Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
`
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`Page 2
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`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`FOR PETITIONER:
` Michael D. Specht, Esq.
` Christian A. Camarce, Esq.
` Sterne Kessler Goldstein & Fox
` 1100 New York Avenue, NW
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` P 202.371.2600 | F 202.371.2540
` mspecht@skgf.com
` ccamarce#@skgf.com
`
`FOR PATENT OWNER:
` Thomas King, Esq.
` Haynes and Boone LLP
` 18100 Van Karman
` Suite 750
` Irvine, California 92612-0169
` P 949.202.3059 | F 949.202.3159
` thomas.king@haynesboone.com
`
`AND
`
` Henry L. Welch, Ph.D., P.E., Esq.
` Haynes and Boone LLP
` 2033 Gateway Place
` Suite 300
` San Jose, California 95110
` P 408.660.4183 | F 408.660.4121
` henry.welch@haynesboone.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Mr. Don Coulman, IVM
` Ms. Kari Livingston, Videographer
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape number 1
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` in the videotaped deposition of Dr. Dean P.
`
` Neikirk in the matter of Intellectual
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` Venture Management LLC versus Xilinx, Inc.
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` This deposition is being held at Haynes and
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` Boone, LLP at 2505 North Plano Road, Suite
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` 4000, in Richardson, Texas, on August 16th,
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` 2013, and the time is 9:04 a.m. My name is
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` Keri Livingston from the firm of
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` TransPerfect, and I am the legal video
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` specialist. Our court reporter today is
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` Dan Skur, also with TransPerfect.
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` Counsel, introduce yourselves and
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` state your agreements for the record. Our
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` court reporter will then swear in the
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` witness.
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` MR. SPECHT: Mike Specht with the
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` firm of Stern Kessler Goldstein & Fox
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` representing the petitioner IVM. Here with
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` me today is Christian Camarce, also with
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` the firm of Stern Kessler and Don Coulman
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` with the petitioner Intellectual Venture
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` Management.
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` MR. KING: Tom King with Haynes and
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` Boone here on behalf of Xilinx. I'm also
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` here with Henry Welch, also with Haynes and
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` Boone.
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` DEAN PAUL NEIKIRK, Ph.D.,
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` having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
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` (9:04 a.m.)
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` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. SPECHT:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Neikirk.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. How are you today?
`
` A. Just fine, thank you.
`
` Q. Would you again please state your
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`full name for the record?
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` A. Dean Paul Neikirk.
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` Q. And just a few housekeeping sorts of
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`items to get started. First of all, you
`
`understand that you're under oath to tell the
`
`truth today and your testimony is being video
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`recorded, correct?
`
` A. Yes, I understand that.
`
` Q. And as I go through the questions,
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`if at any time there's a question that is
`
`unclear to you, please just stop, ask me to
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`clarify. Does that sound reasonable?
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` A. Yes, it does.
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` Q. In terms of breaks, told the tapes
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`are about two hours long, so we'll certainly
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`take a break when the tapes run out, probably
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`take breaks more frequently than that, and
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`certainly if at any time you need a break, let
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`us know, and, you know, we'll try to honor that
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`request.
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` Do you know why you're here this
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`morning?
`
` A. My understanding it is to be deposed
`
`with respect to the declarations that I've
`
`submitted in this examination.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` MR. SPECHT: And just so it's clear
`
` on the record, Tom, we're addressing two
`
` interparty's reviews here today referred to
`
` as IPR 2012-18, which is an interparty's
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` review of the 7,566,960 patent which I'll
`
` refer to as the '960 patent in shorthand
`
` during the day, and we're also here to
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` discuss relative to IPR 2012-19, which is
`
` the interparty's review of 8,062,968, which
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` I refer to as the '968 patent. These
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` patents are related, and the transcripts
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` for this deposition will cover both of
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` those proceedings. We'll submit them at
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` the patent office in both dockets. Is that
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` clear to you? You understand?
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` THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
`
` MR. KING: And Tom, we've agreed
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` beforehand just that that was going to be
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` the case, so I just wanted to get that on
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` the record, and now we can get started.
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`BY MR. SPECHT:
`
` Q. So I guess, first question, have you
`
`ever been deposed before?
`
` A. Yes, I have.
`
` Q. And in what matters have you been
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`deposed?
`
` A. I've been deposed off and on over
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`some ten years in quite a few different
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`matters.
`
` Q. Any of those, in terms of subject
`
`matter, related to the subject matter that
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`we're going to talk about here today?
`
` A. So I have certainly had depositions
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`related to integrated circuits and their
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`fabrication and operation, as well as some
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`related to the packaging of integrated
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`circuits.
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` Q. And those that were related to
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`packaging of ICs, on whose behalf were you
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`testifying?
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` A. Last year, I was involved in an ITC
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`case that related generally to packaging, and
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`in that case the plaintiff was -- let's see.
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`The plaintiff in that case was trying -- now
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`another name is coming to mind, and that's the
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`wrong one. Who was that? Now it's slipped my
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`mind.
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` Q. If it comes back to you later --
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` A. It will, I'm sure. All the other
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`names are coming to mind right now except that
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`one.
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` Q. And have you ever served as an
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`expert on behalf of Xilinx previously?
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` A. No, I don't believe I have.
`
` Q. Okay. And have you ever served or
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`been deposed before in an interparty's review
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`proceeding?
`
` A. I'm trying to recall whether I've
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`ever been deposed in an interparty's review. I
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`don't think I have to this point.
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` Q. And what did you do to prepare for
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`today's deposition?
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` A. I reviewed my declarations and
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`reviewed several pieces of art that have been
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`cited so far in the case, and I did meet with
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`counsel yesterday.
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` Q. In terms of the art you reviewed,
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`what was the art that you reviewed?
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` A. I believe there were four or five
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`pieces of art that I think I've discussed in my
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`declarations, Chakravorty, Ma, and now I'm
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`going to forget a couple of the names, but the
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`same pieces of art that I've discussed in my
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`declarations.
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` Q. Okay. And which counsel did you
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`meet with?
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` A. I met with Tom and with Henry Welch.
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` Q. And about how long did you meet with
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`your counsel?
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` A. I think we met for about, what, five
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`hours yesterday.
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` Q. And in terms of the total time that
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`you spent preparing, besides just those fives
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`hours, your own preparation?
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` A. I'd say maybe five hours in addition
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`to that, five or six hours, excluding the time
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`spent in preparing the declarations originally,
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`of course.
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` Q. Sure. Sure. And other than your
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`counsel, did you discuss the deposition with
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`anyone else?
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` A. No, I have not.
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` Q. And prior to this, do you have a
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`previous association with Haynes and Boone?
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`Have you ever worked with Haynes and Boone
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`previously?
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` A. I am working with Haynes and Boone
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`on another case.
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` Q. And what case is that?
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` A. That's a case between L3 and Sony.
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` Q. And you're working with L3 or Sony?
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` A. L3 is the -- is plaintiff in that
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`case, and Haynes and Boone represents L3.
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` Q. And what is the technology involved
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`in that case?
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` A. Generally speaking, that relates to
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`imaging sensors for cameras.
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` Q. And with respect to these IPRs in
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`general, when were you first contacted by
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`Xilinx to consult in this matter -- these
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`matters?
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` A. Excuse me. I was contacted by
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`Haynes Boone, I think it was probably on the
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`order of nine months ago or so. I don't think
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`it was quite a year ago.
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` Q. And roughly speaking, about how much
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`time have you put in in total in this matter,
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`these matters, the '960 and '968?
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` A. Roughly speaking, I would guess I've
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`put in somewhere on the -- excluding just the
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`other day's prep and so on, probably, prior to
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`that, 30 or 40 hours.
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` Q. Okay.
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` MR. SPECHT: Let me -- if the
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` reporter would mark -- this is the '960
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` patent as Exhibit 1.
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` MR. KING: Do we want to mark these
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` Number 1?
`
` (Simultaneous discussion.)
`
` MR. KING: All these things are
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` already marked as exhibits, are they not?
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` MR. SPECHT: They are.
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` MR. KING: Why don't we just use
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` those exhibit numbers. Is that fair?
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` MR. SPECHT: Most of them are; some
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` will not be.
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` MR. KING: Okay.
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` MR. SPECHT: It's up to you. I
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` don't have a strong preference.
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` MR. KING: I think, for the record,
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` it might be better just to mark them as
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` Exhibit 2001 or whatever.
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` MR. SPECHT: This is IVM -- I'm
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` going to hand to you IVM 1001, which is the
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` '960 patent.
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` MR. CAMARCE: There are two is IVM
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` exhibits.
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` MR. SPECHT: Oh, yes. So it's going
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` to get confusing because of the two
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` proceedings.
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` MR. KING: Fine. Let's renumber.
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` MR. SPECHT: Let's renumber them.
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` MR. KING: Sorry about that.
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` MR. SPECHT: So we need to label
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` this as Exhibit 1.
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` (Deposition Exhibit 1 marked.)
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` MR. SPECHT: So we got that done.
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` So give you the second exhibit. You can
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` mark this as Exhibit 2. This is the '968
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` patent.
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` MR. KING: I tried.
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` (Deposition Exhibit 2 marked.)
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`BY MR. SPECHT:
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` Q. So what I just handed you are the
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`two patents that we're going to be talking
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`about today. Exhibit 1 is the '960 patent, and
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`Exhibit 2 is the '968 patent. And just so
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`we're all clear on the relationship of these
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`patents, if you could look at Exhibit 2, the
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`'968 patent, on the cover sheet you see about
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`halfway down there it says related U.S.
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`applications?
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` A. Yes, I see that.
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` Q. See that? And it states that that's
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`a division of application 10,698,704 filed on
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`October 31st, 2003, now patent number
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`7,566,960. Are you familiar with what being a
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`division means?
`
` A. In general terms, I am, yes.
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` Q. So these two patents are related.
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`The specification in the '968 patent is the
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`same as the specification in the '960 patent.
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`So they're very closely related. We're going
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`to focus -- primarily, I'll refer to the '960
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`patent during the day. So looking -- if you
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`now turn to the '960 patent, if you go to
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`column 1, this is Exhibit 1, and under field
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`of -- field of the invention under column 1,
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`can you just read the first two lines, three
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`lines into the record?
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` A. So in column 1, starting at line 5,
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`it states, the present invention relates to an
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`interposer disposed inside an integrated
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`circuit package between a die and the package
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`wherein the interposer provides bypass
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`capacitance signal redistribution functionality
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`and/or signal termination structures close to
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`the semiconductor die.
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` Q. So you understand that basically
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`these two patents are related to interposers,
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`the subject matter?
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` A. In general terms, yes, I do
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`understand that.
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` MR. SPECHT: Let me -- if you could
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` mark this as -- this is your CV. If you
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` could mark that as Exhibit 3.
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` (Deposition Exhibit 3 marked.)
`
`BY MR. SPECHT:
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` Q. So handing you Exhibit 3, which is a
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`copy of your CV. This particular copy was
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`submitted with the -- in the '960 patent, that
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`proceeding. Our review is it's the same CV
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`that was submitted in the '968. Is that your
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`understanding as well?
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` A. Yes, it is.
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` Q. Okay. So I have a couple of
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`questions regarding the CV. If you could --
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`first of all, do you recognize this document?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. And you recognize it as your
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`declaration -- or as your CV, correct?
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` A. I recognize this as my -- my vitae,
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`yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Thank you. If you could turn
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`to page 4, so about two-thirds of the way down
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`that page, it lists patents. There appears to
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`be 15 listed. None of these patents include
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`the term "interposer" in the titles; is that
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`correct?
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` A. That is correct.
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` Q. Do any of these patents address
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`interposers?
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` A. No. These patents do not.
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` Q. If I now direct your attention to
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`page 6 of the CV, there are some titled about
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`two-thirds of the way down, again publications.
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`There are 88 publications listed. None of
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`these publications seem to include the term
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`"interposer" either; is that correct? I mean,
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`take your time to look at it. I mean, there's
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`a lot.
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` A. So -- I'm sorry. This section is
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`what -- we use this divisions at the University
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`of Texas, what we refer to as refereed archival
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`journal publications.
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` Q. Right.
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` A. And within those types of journal
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`publications, none of the titles include the
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`word "interposer."
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` Q. Are you aware of whether interposers
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`are covered in any of those documents or
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`publications?
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` A. And that's what I'm looking to see,
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`whether if in any of these I would characterize
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`any of these -- publication 34 is a
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`publication on characterization of tape on a --
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`tape automated bonding tape. That is a means
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`of interconnection that's used between
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`integrated circuit die and packages. I don't
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`think most people usually refer to that
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`particular type of tape as being an interposer,
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`however. And I think of these -- this list of
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`publications, that's the one that is -- is
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`explicitly related to packaging. The rest have
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`some work related to modeling of interconnects
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`that's applicable to packaging but are not
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`directly addressed in packaging issues.
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` Q. Okay. So pub 36 is the only
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`publication focused on packaging and -- or
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`tangentially related to interposers, fair?
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` A. I think that's a fair
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`characterization, yes.
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` Q. Okay. So now if I look at -- on
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`page 15, actually at the bottom of page 14 it
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`begins, referred conference proceedings. There
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`are 163 of these. It appears also that none of
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`these proceedings include the term interposer;
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`is that correct? Take a moment.
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` A. I certainly would agree that none of
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`the titles include the word interposer, and, in
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`fact, I doubt that the text of any of these
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`conference proceedings papers contains the word
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`interposer. A number of them are related to
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`packaging issues in terms of electrical
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`modeling, but again, I don't think we use the
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`word interposer in these.
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` Q. And just one other question along
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`those same lines. So on page 32, you have your
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`published abstracts, the listing of your
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`published abstracts, and there are, again,
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`quite a few of those, 24 published abstracts.
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`My review of that also don't include the term
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`interposer in any of the titles; is that
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`correct?
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` A. Yes, that's correct.
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` Q. And to the best of your knowledge,
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`do any of those abstracts deal with
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`interposers?
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` A. So, again, trying to think. I'm not
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`even sure. It's -- these abstracts are usually
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`related to electronic devices and not -- this
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`particular set I don't think is related to
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`packaging. So no, these are not related to
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`interposers specifically.
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` Q. Okay. So just, I mean, in general,
`
`looking through your CV, is it not correct that
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`there's no mention of interposers?
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` A. There is a variety of -- there are a
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`variety of publications and technical reports
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`that --
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` Q. Right.
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` A. -- discussed packaging and their
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`electrical properties. I teach a class in the
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`electromagnetics of packaging. We discuss --
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`we have discussed and in that class discussed a
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`large variety of parts of packages, including
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`interconnections between the die and the
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`package. I don't think that we -- that I've
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`specifically used the word interposer --
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. -- in those discussions.
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` Q. So you mentioned a class that you
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`teach that you talk about interconnection
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`techniques. Is that listed on page 43 of your
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`CV here?
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` A. It is on page -- let's see. On page
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`44, the second from the top is an
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`electromagnetics and packaging class which was
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`then offered --
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` Q. So --
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` A. -- periodically for some years
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`following that first offering.
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` Q. So just to make sure I have the
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`right one, yeah, you're referring to EE-397-K,
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`electronics in packaging?
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` A. Electromagnetics in packaging.
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` Q. Electromagnetics in packaging, thank
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`you, which here it listed -- the date there is
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`the semester it's being offered, spring 1995?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. And in that course generally you
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`discussed interconnecting -- interconnection
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`techniques; is that correct?
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` A. Broadly speaking, we talked about
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`different types of packaging. There -- the
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`differences in how the interconnections
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`influence the electromagnetic behavior of those
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`various packages.
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` Q. Okay. And do you have a
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`recollection of specifically discussing
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`interposers in that class or as part of that
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`curriculum?
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` A. We talked about structures that
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`connect the package to a die.
`
` Q. Uh-huh.
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` A. But I don't think I used the word
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`interposer.
`
` Q. Okay. Okay. So with respect to
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`that particular course, is it still being
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`offered? Do you still teach it?
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` A. I think that we haven't offered that
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`one recently. I've been asked to do other
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`classes instead.
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` Q. Do you recall when the last time you
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`offered it? Just trying to...
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` A. It's -- six -- so I think that it's
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`possible the last time was 1996, because after
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`that I shifted into a simulations methods class
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`as well as a microwave device class.
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` Q. And you recollect what textbook you
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`used in that course?
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` A. We didn't use any one specifically,
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`but I believe we used -- as a reference, I used
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`Paul and probably one other book whose title is
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`slipping my mind right this minute.
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` Q. Do you remember the title of the
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`Paul? Is the author, I presume --
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` A. Paul was the author. It's an
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`electromagnetic compatibility text.
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` Q. Okay. Okay. So in that -- I don't
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`see interposers here. How would you
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`characterize your area of expertise? I mean,
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`what does your current research involve, and
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`what are you known for at UT?
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` A. I have studied the electromagnetic
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`properties of large to small to microstructures
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`for 30 years. Including in that is a lot of
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`work on the modeling of interconnections.
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. I also do a great deal of work on
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`solid state devices and certain kinds of
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`semiconductor devices as well as
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`micromechanical systems devices.
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. So I do a lot of other work, but a
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`great deal of what I do is related to the
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`electromagnetic properties of interconnects.
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` Q. And so have you ever designed a
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`system involving an interposer?
`
` A. Again, we have designed tape
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`automated bonding tape which is a means of
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`interconnection between a die and a package.
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`Again, we didn't call that an interposer.
`
` Q. Okay. So the answer would be no?
`
` A. I designed interconnects from die to
`
`package, but not ones that we called an
`
`interposer.
`
` Q. Okay. And I guess one other
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`question related to, in terms of the inventors
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`of the '960 patent, have you ever worked with
`
`any of those inventors?
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` A. There's one inventor, and no, I
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`don't know -- do not know the inventors.
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` Q. One inventor. Sorry. So do you
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`know -- so the time frame for the filing of
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`the '960 patent was in October 2003. Around
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`that date, do you know what the key reference
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`text for packaging and interposers would have
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`been?
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` A. Again, I think -- I don't know that
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`there's a text devoted to interposers
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`specifically. There might be, but I would
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`somewhat doubt it. The text, Paul was still
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`considered, I think, a good electromagnetic
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`interference or EMI reference, which includes
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`discussions of packaging. There are a number
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`of multichip module books that were published
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`in the late '90s and early 2000s that I think
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`are relevant references in general.
`
` Q. So same question today, are these
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`still the references that you would refer
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`someone to on this topic?
`
` A. Actually, in many cases, I would.
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`The electromagnetics has remained --
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`electromagnetics is an old field.
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` Q. Sure.
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` A. And some of the key issues in terms
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`of inductance, capacitance, cross talk, and so
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`on are -- have remained sort of fundamental
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`ones.
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` Q. Okay. And these are textbooks from
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`the mid '90, late '90 time frame?
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` A. Some of them are from the 1940s or
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`1930s if you really look properly for source
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`material.
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` Q. Okay. Okay. One other question --
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`actually, a couple questions with respect to
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`your CV. If I refer to page 4, go to page 4.
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`There's a section entitled Commercialization of
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`Technology. Do you see that?
`
` A. I do.
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` Q. And it indicates there, it talks
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`about a company, Lab Now, is currently actively
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`developing new medical diagnostic systems.
`
`What is Lab Now?
`
` A. It's a start-up that's -- was or is
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`based in Austin, Texas. I have no direct
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`involvement with them. They have licensed the
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`technology we developed on medical diagnostic
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`chips.
`
` Q. Okay. And it says they're currently
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`actively developing medical devices. Are they
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`still doing that?
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` A. I haven't checked recently. They
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`were about a year ago. I don't know their
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`current status actually.
`
` Q. Okay. So do you know when you
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`updated this last? It looks like it shows a
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`2004 date here.
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` A. That was when they did an initial
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`license. This came from some University of
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`Texas material. I -- this particular section
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`probably went in my resume around 2005 or 2006.
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` Q. Okay. So it's unclear whether this
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`is current or updated?
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` A. That they did do that is correct,
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`but whether the company is still active as of
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`today, I honestly don't know.
`
` Q. Okay. With respect to page 40, turn
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`to page 40. So this -- are you there? So this
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`is entitled Technical Consulting. Does this
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`list all of your technical consultations?
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` A. Most of my technical work is through
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`the university.
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` Q. Okay.
`
` A. And so this is only the work done
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`independent of my university work, and, yes,
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`this -- actually, there's one company missing
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`from this list I noticed the other day, Foster
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`Miller, in about 2009, 2010 time frame.
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` Q. Okay. And in terms of you mentioned
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`earlier that over the last ten years or so
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`you've been testifying, depositions when we
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`first started, are those listed here anywhere?
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` A. Not on -- not in this. This is my
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`basic resume. I usually provide that
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`information separately when requested.
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` Q. Okay. And when was the last time
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`this was updated, "this" being the CV.
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` A. Well, the date on this says October
`
`5th, 2012, and that's probably approximately
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`when this particular version was updated.
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`It's -- it's accurate as of certainly a few
`
`months ago.
`
` Q. Okay. Except for the Lab Now, which
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`you're not sure on, correct?
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` A. Right, and that is correct. I don't
`
`know the current status on that.
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` Q. And the Foster Miller in the list of
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`consulting --
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` (Simultaneous conversation.)
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` A. Yes.
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`BY MR. SPECHT:
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` Q. So with respect to the technical
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`consulting, it's missing some information, the
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`Foster Miller relationship that you had or
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`work, correct?
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` A. Yes, it's missing the Foster Miller
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`reference.
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` Q. Thank you.
`
` MR. SPECHT: Lost my assistant. If
`
` you could mark this. I think this is
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` Exhibit 4.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 4 marked.)
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`BY MR. SPECHT:
`
` Q. So just handed you what the court
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`reporter has marked as Exhibit 4. This is the
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`patent owner's second substitute motion to
`
`amend. Have you seen this document before?
`
`This is the -- sorry, this is the motion to
`
`amend, the second substitute motion to amend
`
`that was submitted in the '960 patent
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`proceeding. Have you seen this document
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`before?
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` A. And I -- I imagine I have seen this
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`document, yes.
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` Q. So if I could direct your attention
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`to page 2. Are you there?
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` A. I am there.
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` Q. So this is a listing of the claims
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`including what -- the proposed substitute
`
`claims. You see claim 14. Do you see that?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. And with respect to the substitute
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`claims, the protocol, if you will, for
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`identifying features that are being added is
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`that they're underlined. Are you familiar with
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`that protocol?
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` A. In general terms, yes, I am.
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` Q. Okay. And so if you look at claim
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`14, it's actually on page 3, I think it's the
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`third element, an interposing structure. What
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`elements are being added here?
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` A. The material that's underlined here
`
`is comprising a plurality of tiled interposing
`
`structures, and then the plurality of tiled
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`interposer structures being held together using
`
`an elastomer.
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` Q. So two features, essentially the
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`tiled interposing structures and the fact that
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`they're being held together by an elastomer?
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` A. Those are the two things that are
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`underlined, yes.
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` Q. And similarly in claim -- if you
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`turn the page to page 4, claim 22, there are
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`essentially two features being added to claim
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`22, essentially that you have a plurality of
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`the tiled interposing structures and that
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`they're connected or held together by an
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`elastomer; is that correct?
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` A. Let's see.
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` Q. I'll give you a moment.
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` A. In general terms, yes, that would
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`appear to be what the underlined sections are
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`addressed to.
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` Q. And -- but for those two changes for
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`each of those claims, those two features and
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`sort of ignoring the underlining for the
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`claimed dependencies, those are the only two
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`changes or features to these claims?
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` A. Those are the only things that I see
`
`that are underlined in this document.
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` Q. Okay. Fair point. And those are
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`the tiled interposing structure and the fact
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`that they're being held together by an
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`elastomer, correct?
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`
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` A. In general terms, yes, I think
`
`that's a fair characterization.
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` MR. SPECHT: So if the court
`
` reporter could mark this as Exhibit 5.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 5 marked.)
`
`BY MR. SPECHT:
`
` Q. I've just handed you what has been
`
`marked as Exhibit 5. This is entitled Patent
`
`Owner's Second Substitute Motion to Amend.
`
`This is
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