trials@uspto.gov
`571-272-7822
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`Paper No. 35
`April 3, 2015
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`RECORD OF ORAL HEARING
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`- - - - - -
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - -
`
`
`TRW AUTOMOTIVE US LLC,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`MAGNA ELECTRONICS INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - -
`
`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`
`
`Oral Hearing Held on Thursday, February 19, 2015
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`
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`
`
`Before: JUSTIN T. ARBES, NEIL T. POWELL, and JO-ANNE M.
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`KOKOSKI, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`
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`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Thursday, February
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`19, 2015, at 10:29 a.m., in Hearing Room B, taken at the U.S. Patent and
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`Trademark Office, 600 Dulany Street, Alexandria, Virginia.
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`

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`APPEARANCES:
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`TIMOTHY SENDEK, ESQ.
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`Lathrop & Gage LLP
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`155 North Wacker Drive, Suite 3000
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`Chicago, Illinois 60606
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`312-920-3319
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`A. JUSTIN POPLIN, ESQ.
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`HISSAN ANIS, ESQ.
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`Lathrop & Gage LLP
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`10851 Mastin Boulevard
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`Building 82, Suite 1000
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`Overland Park, Kansas 66210
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`913-451-5100
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`ROBERT GREENE STERNE, ESQ.
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`DAVID K.S. CORNWELL, ESQ.
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`RICHARD D. COLLER, III, ESQ.
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`JASON D. EISENBERG, ESQ.
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`Sterne Kessler Goldstein Fox
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`1100 New York Avenue, N.W.
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`Washington, D.C. 20005
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`202-371-2600
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
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`P R O C E E D I N G S
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`( 10 :2 9 a . m. )
`
`J UDGE AR B ES: Goo d mo rn ing , ev er yo n e . P le as e
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`b e s ea ted . This is t he se cond d a y o f c as es i n a set o f si x
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`r e lat ed c ase s .
`
`Th is mo rn ing we wi ll h ea r IP R20 14 -002 56 ,
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`in volvi ng Pat en t 7 ,4 59 ,664 . I PR201 4 -0 0260 and
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`I P R20 14 - 00264 ha ve be en conso lida t ed wit h I P R -0 025 6 .
`
`We wi ll fo llo w t he sa me p r oc edu r es as ye st e rd a y.
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`B oth p a rti es will h av e 45 mi nut es to p r es ent arg u me nt s .
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`P e titi one r wi ll go f i rst and p r ese nt i ts c as e . Pa ten t Own e r
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`wi ll res pond . And t hen P eti tion e r ma y u s e an y r e ma in ing t i me
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`wi thin t he 4 5 mi nut es .
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`An y q ue stio ns b ef o re we b egin toda y?
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`M R . C OR NWELL: Your Hono r , I do hav e on e
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`qu est ion .
`
`J UDGE AR B ES: Ye s .
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`M R . C OR NWELL: Yest e rd a y yo u a sk ed us n ot to
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`in te r rupt the oth er sid e wi th ob je ctio ns , a nd I thin k th at 's
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`c or r ec t , I think tha t 's th e p rop e r pro ce dur e , bu t ye ste rd a y
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`e ve r yt hing tha t you sa w o n th e ELM O we r e not
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`d e mo nst r ativ es t ha t h ad b ee n pr oduc ed to us . The y we r e
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`ou tsid e th e d e mo ns tr at ive s .
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`And I ' m wo nd er ing - - a nd it h as be en my
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`un de rst and ing , tha t un les s we we re s e rve d with
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
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`d e mo nst r ativ es , th e y a r e re all y n ot su ppos ed to be usi ng th e m.
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`And it s ee ms t o me t h e y a r e using th e ELM O as a n e xc use to
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`pu t thi ngs up tha t h av e not b e en s er ve d on us , and so t he y
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`we r e su rp ris es .
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`And I was won der ing if - - I me a n , ob vious l y i f you
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`do n' t ag r ee with th at ch ar ac te ri z ation , tha t 's f in e - - do yo u
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`wa nt u s to l et yo u k no w du ring our s essio n , du ring ou r t alk s
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`th at , in f a ct , mo st o f th ei r d e mo nstr a tiv es , in f ac t yest e rd a y
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`a ll o f th e t hings you sa w o n th e ELM O, we r e not thing s th at
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`h ad b ee n se rv ed on u s?
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`J UDGE AR B ES: S u re . I th ink some o f t he t hings
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`th at we re sho wn we r e so me o f th e P a ten t Own er 's
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`d e mo nst r ativ es and so me we r e p age s fro m t h e re co rd .
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`S o wh y d on 't we d ea l wit h thos e tod a y on a
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`c as e -b y- c as e b asis . So i f t hat doe s o cc ur tod a y, pl ea se r ais e it
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`in yo u r p res ent at ion .
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`M R . C OR NWELL: Oka y. I c e rt ainl y d on 't want t o
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`so und p ett y, b ut I di d wa nt to add re ss t he Cou rt on th at .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Th ank yo u .
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`M R . C OR NWELL: Than k you .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: An y o th er que stions be fo re we
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`b egin?
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`p ro ce ed .
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`M R . S ENDEK: No , Yo ur Hono r .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Ok a y. P e titi one r , yo u ma y
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`
`M R . S ENDEK: Th ank yo u , You r Hon or . An d I
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`wou ld li ke t o r ese rv e 15 mi n ut es of my t i me f o r r ebut ta l . And
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`my c o - coun se l wil l ha nd up h a rd cop ies of our de mon st rat iv es .
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`And th ese , lik e a ll o f t he i te ms i n th e r e co rd , wer e se rv ed o n
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`c ouns el fo r th e Pa t ent Own e r .
`
`You r Ho nor s , my n a me i s Ti m S e nde k . I a m a c t ing
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`a s l ea d co uns el he r e to da y f o r th e P e titi one r TRW Au to mo tiv e
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`U. S . LLC .
`
`Wi t h me to da y a lso f ro m La t hr op & Gag e ar e Mr .
`
`Hi ssa n Anis and M r . J usti n Po plin.
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`I f yo u go to sli de 1 o f th e d e mo nstr a tiv es we jus t
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`h and ed ou t , as the Bo a rd ju st no ted , t oda y we a r e he r e to
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`di scu ss s ev er al con solid at ed ca se s r eg a rdin g th e '664 p at ent .
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`Th e re a re t hr e e gr ound s of r evi e w c ov er ing 28 cl aims t o tal .
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`I n so insti tuti ng tho se g rou nds o f re vi e w, th e
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`B oa rd has det e r min ed tha t P eti tione r is re ason abl y l ik el y t o
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`p re va il on t he s ho wings ma d e i n th e p etit ion .
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`Th is p at ent sh a res t he sa me s pe ci fic a tion with all
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`o f th e p at ents we di scu ss ed ye st er da y, t h e '023 , the '24 8 , th e
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`' 149 , as well as bot h pa te nts we wil l be ta lking about this
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`a f te rnoo n .
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`Th e p rio r ar t at issu e i s va rio us c omb i n ati ons o f
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`th e Kenu e , Ka kina mi , Ve l la cot t a nd Yan ag a wa r ef e re nc e . Th e
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`p ri ma r y r e f e r en c e, th e Kenu e r e fe re nc e , i s a Gen er al Moto rs
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`p at ent u sing a C CD c a me r a to det ec t l an e ma r ke rs in t he
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`v ehi cl e a nd a lso to d et e ct obs ta cl es wi thin the lan e
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`bo unda ri es . And th e ca me r a o f th at Kenu e re f er en ce is
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`mo u nt ed t o a winds hie ld .
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`Go to sli de 3 of ou r p re sen ta tion . I woul d lik e to
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`a dd re ss th e is sues t ha t M agn a h as r a ise d c rit ic iz ing th e
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`g roun ds o f r evi ew i nsti tut ed b y t he Bo a rd .
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`M ag na 's p ri ma r y a tt ac k on th e Kenu e a nd
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`Ka kin a mi c o mb ina tio n with r ega rd to , fo r exa mp l e , cl ai ms 1
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`a nd 35 and 4 5 , is th is d et ec ts a nd id ent ifi es ob ject s no tion .
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`M ag na a rgue s th at d et e ctin g an o b je c t an d id enti f yi ng an
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`ob je ct mu st be d if f e re nt thi ngs .
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`We b e li eve tha t is i nco r re ct and I thi nk M agn a 's
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`a rg u me nt s to th at e f f ec t a r e in consis te nt wit h th e
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`sp e ci fi cat ion , in con sist ent with t he c l ai m l a ngua ge its el f , o mi t
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`k e y d et ails of the c l ai m l a ngua ge its el f and , mo st imp o r t antl y,
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`a r e to ta ll y in con sis te nt wit h M agna ' s e xpe rt , Dr . Tur k , upo n
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`who m t h e y r e l y f o r a dvo ca ting t his p osit ion in the fi rst pl ac e .
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`And I wi ll g et t o wh e re Dr . Tu rk und e r mi ne d th at
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`no tion in a mo me n t . It is p ar t o f th e d eposi tion r eco rd and i t
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`wa s cit ed in our re pl y b ri e f .
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`Th e cla i m s ta te s th at t he s ens ing s yst e m i s
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`d et ec ting o b je ct s b y p ro c essi ng s aid i ma g e da ta t o id ent if y
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`ob je cts . And it 's th at "b y p ro ce ssing i ma g e da ta " tha t is
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`o mi t ted f ro m M a gn a 's ar gu me nt s on t his . It i s r epl ac ed b y a n
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`e lli psis .
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`

`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`
`Ac c ord ing to M agn a 's d e fini tion -- M agn a d ef ine s
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`id en tif yi ng the ob je ct as b eing a mo r e p a rti cul a rize d
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`c a teg ori z atio n o f th e ob je ct , wh e rea s d et ect ing i t is me r e l y
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`s ens ing it s pr es enc e in th e f ir st pl ac e .
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`I f yo u lo ok a t th e c l ai m l a ngua ge th at i s quot ed o n
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`p ag e 3 o f ou r d emo n st r ativ es , yo u s ee th at is inc o mp ati ble
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`wi th th e wa y th e c l ai m i s ph r ase d in t he fi rst pla c e . Th e
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`d et ec ting o b je ct s o cc ur s b y p ro ces sin g th e i ma g e d ata to
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`id en tif y t h e ob je cts .
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`Th e re a re t wo r e aso ns th at ar gu me nt doe sn 't ma k e
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`a n y s ens e . Fi rst o f a ll , i t is pu tting t he c art be fo re th e ho rs e ,
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`b ec aus e i den ti f ying the ob jec t be fo re it i s ev en d ete c ted ,
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`a c co rdin g to th e wa y M a gn a i nte rpr e ts tho se te r ms , ma k e s n o
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`s ens e .
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`As Dr . Mill e r puts i t in p a ra gr aph 5 o f hi s r ebu tt al:
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`Th e p ro ces s o f ide nti fi c ation de fine s th e ma n ne r o f d et ec tion .
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`He go es on to e xpl ai n th at bot h det e cting and
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`id en tif yi ng a re c aus ed b y t h e sa me i ma g e p ro c essi ng a s
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`r eq ui red b y th e cla i m. Th e y a r e not d if f er ent le vel s o f
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`a na l ysi s .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: C ouns el , if the y a r e r ea ll y t wo
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`di f fe r ent t hings th en , wh y - - we hav e a cl ai m t h at r ec it es bo th ,
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`r igh t , de te cti ng ob je cts b y p r oc essin g sa id i ma g e d at a to
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`id en tif y o b je cts? I t s ee ms t o me tha t you a re r ea ding o ut th e
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`

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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`" to id ent if y o b jects . " You we re just r ea ding tha t begi nning
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`po rt ion o f it .
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`M R . S ENDEK: We a r e not r ead ing i t out . Wh at
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`we a r e a rgu ing is th at the y a r e di ffe r ent wor ds but th e y me a n
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`th e s a me t hing , and tha t th er e i s not an y - - th e re i s no suppo rt
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`f o r this noti on .
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`M ag na i den ti fi es a ve r y p a rti cul a r me a n in g . I t
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`s a ys d et e cting , it s a ys , o ka y, t he r e is so me t hing t he re . And
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`id en tif yi ng me a ns a mo r e p ar ti cula r iz ed un de rst andin g of wha t
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`th at ob jec t is . Thos e ar e no t supp or t ed b y t he s pe ci fi c ation
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`a nd i t is no t suppo rt ed b y Dr . Tu rk' s t est i mo n y.
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`J UDGE AR B ES: B ut , couns el , isn 't the nat ur al
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`r e adi ng o f th e c lai m, wh e n we ha ve t wo di ff e ren t wor ds , bo th
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`a r e re cit ed in th e c l ai m, b oth h av e to hav e me a ni ng , so isn 't
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`th e n atu r al re adi ng o f th at tha t th ey mu s t be d if f er ent thin gs?
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`M R . S ENDEK: Th er e i s th e c onc ept of cl ai m
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`di f fe r enti at ion whi ch s a ys if yo u us e th is wo rd di f fer en tl y
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`wi th - - i f yo u us e t wo di ff e ren t wor ds i n th e c lai m, i t cou ld
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`h av e th at i mp a c t , bu t it i s not a h ar d a nd fas t r ule . And , as I
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`wi l l g et to in a mo me n t , it is ce rt ainl y n ot the rul e he r e .
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`Th e sp e ci fic at ion us es d et e ct and id ent if y
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`in te r cha nge ab l y. And th e y a r e th e t yp es of word s th at ex act l y
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`th is so rt o f i ssu e c an co me u p wit h. Th e y a r e wo rds th at me a n
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`th e s a me t hing in th e En glis h la ngu ag e .
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`
`You c an s a y d et ec t . You c an s a y id ent if y. Yo u
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`c an sa y d is ce rn . I n th e cont ext o f th e cl ai m h e r e the y a r e
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`s a yin g th e s a me thi ng , b ec aus e th at 's al l th e pa ten t te a ch es us
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`ho w to do .
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`R e c all t hat th er e is this fi gur e 7 t ha t o cc urs in all
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`o f th e sp e ci fic at ion s whe r e it tal ks a bout cou nting up p ixe ls to
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`id en tif y h e ad lights and t ai llig hts . Th at 's all M agn a t e ach es u s
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`ho w to do i n t er ms o f i den ti f ying an yt hing .
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`Th e re is no wa y to re ad tha t a lgo rith m t o hav e t his
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`so rt of p r eli mi n a ry i d en ti fi cat ion and the n a mo r e r ef in ed
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`id en tif ic at ion . It is not ev en id enti f yi ng ob je cts i n p ar ti cul ar
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`b ec aus e i t c an 't ev en si ngl e out an ob je ct b as ed on th at
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`a lgo rit h m.
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`R e me mb e r , a ll it is doing is count ing up th e tot al
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`nu mb e r of p ix els a c ros s th e whol e i ma g e r th at ex ce ed a
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`p ar ti cul ar th res hold . It has no id e a ho w thos e th r eshol d
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`e xc e edin g pix els r e lat e t o on e an oth er .
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`S o th e re is no way t h a t it ca n ha ve th is p re li mi n ar y
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`id en tif ic at ion o f a n ob je ct foll o wed b y - - o r p re li mi n ar y
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`d et ec tion o f an ob je ct foll o wed b y a n id ent if ic ati on o f an
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`ob je ct .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: B ut , couns el , if tho se t e r ms
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`r e all y d o me a n t he sa me t hi ng , why r e c i te b oth? Wh y i nc lud e
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`bo th in the cl ai ms? Wh y c oul dn 't yo u just sa y d e tec tin g
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`ob je cts b y p roc essi ng s aid i ma g e da t a?
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`

`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`
`M R . S ENDEK: Th er e i s a lot o f v er bos it y in the se
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`c l ai ms an d a lot of r edu nda nc y t ha t is tot all y u nn ec ess a r y.
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`Th e re is a lot o f p ro ce ssing , using a p roc ess or fo r pr oc es sing ,
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`a nd th at sor t o f thi ng .
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`On l y M agn a can e xpl ain wh y it chos e th e wo rds
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`th at it di d , but t he i mp o rta nc e is not so mu ch wha t wa s th e
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`mo t iv at ion bu t how wou ld it be r ead b y a p e rson o f o rdin a r y
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`sk ill i n th e a rt .
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`And th er e is n o jus ti fi cat ion to say a p e r son o f
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`o rdin a r y sk ill i n th e a rt would u nder st and t ha t de te ctin g an d
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`id en tif ic at ion di st inc tion . That dist in ction is no t sup por ted b y
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`wh at i s t aught in th e p at ent .
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`And I t hink an i mpo rt ant point to ge t to he re is
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`wh e re Dr . Tu rk add r ess ed wh at doe s id ent if ic ati on a nd
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`d et ec tion me a n . And th at 's a t p age 180 and 18 1 in th e
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`t r ans cr ipt , wh ich I wil l put o n t h e ELM O in a mo me nt .
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`We a s ked Dr . Turk - - an d , ag ain , thi s is i n th e
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`r e co rd . It was s er ve d on Mag na . Th e re is no qu es tio n th at
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`th is is pro pe rl y i n t he r eco rd . In fa c t , M r . Eis enb e rg t o my
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`l e ft was a t thi s depo siti on .
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`S o we as ked Dr . Tu rk: You s aid t h at d et ec tion is a
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`bi na r y qu es tion , ye s o r no . Wh at is th e qu estio n you ' re
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`a ns wer ing ye s o r no to?
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`And he s ai d: I n g en er al i n de te ct ion?
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
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`And I s aid ye s . And his ans we r to t ha t of wha t is
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`d et ec tion is: Do es t he thing of i nt er e st a ppe a r h er e .
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`S o l e t 's go on to p ag e 181 . An d we as ked hi m
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`wh at i s id enti fi c at ion? And th is is th e k e y po int , p ag e 181 ,
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`l ine s 6 th roug h 10 , we ask ed hi m wh at d oes ide nti fi c ation
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`me a n , a nd h e c onf i r me d t hat ide ntif i cat ion i s a b in ary
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`qu est ion b et we en wh eth e r th e thi ng yo u a r e int e re ste d in is
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`d ee me d to b e p r es ent o r n ot .
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`Dr . Tu rk g av e th e e xa ct sa me d e fini tion fo r both
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`d et ec tion and i dent if ic ati on . Dr . Tu rk i s who t he y r e l y on fo r
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`th e no tion tha t the y a r e di f fe r ent . He und e r mi ned tha t no tion
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`a t th e cro ss -ex a min at ion . Th at 's wh at cr oss -e xa mi na tio n is
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`f o r , to t est the ver a cit y o f wha t th e d ec la r ant i s sa yi ng . And
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`h er e Dr . Tu rk b a ck ed o f f on th at not ion i mme d i a tely.
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`J UDGE AR B ES: C ouns el , what abou t th e
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`di ct ion ar y d e fin itio ns , I be li eve , tha t th e Pa ten t Owne r h as
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`c it ed fo r so me o f th es e t e r ms? Th er e a re sligh tl y d iff e r ent
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`d ef init ions fo r d et e ct a nd id ent if y, r igh t?
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`M R . S ENDEK: Ye s , th e re a re c ert ain l y di cti ona r y
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`d ef init ions tha t ha ve be en pu t f or th . An d we h av e pu t fo rt h
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`so me d i ctio na r y de f init ions as well.
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`Gi ve me a mo me n t , Your Hono r .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Wh y s h oul d we not use th e
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`P a ten t Own er 's dic tio na r y d e finit ions as evi den c e of th e
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`o rdin a r y me a nin g o f tho se te r ms?
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
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`M R . S ENDEK: M ag na i s di re ct ing u s to us e wh at
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`Dr . Tu rk s a ys i s th e o rdin a r y me a n in g of th e te r ms . And I
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`th ink i t is v e r y, ve r y s a li ent th at Dr . Tu rk , th e on e th at Mag na
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`s a ys we sh ould go t o to un de rst and wh at a p er son of o rdin ar y
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`sk ill i n th e a rt woul d und er st and , und e rst ands the se t e r ms to
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`me a n th e s a me t hin g .
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`You he a rd a t l ength ye s te rd a y, a nd I e x pe ct we
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`wi ll h ea r mo r e t od a y, a bout ho w Dr . Tu rk was in this fi eld at
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`th e t i me , h e is a mu c h be tt er - - Ma gn a c lai ms h e i s a mu c h
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`b ett e r r eso ur c e for und e rst andin g wh at a p er son o f o rdin a r y
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`sk ill i n th e a rt woul d und er st and .
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`And he g ive s up th e f a r m o n t hi s poi nt . And so
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`M ag na d oes n' t r ea ll y a dd r ess wh y th at - - h as n eve r a t an y
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`po int i den ti fie d wh y we s houldn ' t c r edi t his r espons e on t ha t
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`po int .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: C ouns el , o ne las t qu est ion
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`r eg a rdin g c lai m i nt e rp re tat ion . The pa te nt we a re de a ling
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`wi th tod a y, 7 , 459, 66 4 , is th at exp ire d?
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`M R . S ENDEK: Thi s on e I bel iev e is not .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Th is is n ot expi red?
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`M R . S ENDEK: Co r re ct .
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: It is .
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`M R . S ENDEK: I wou ld h ave to che ck . M agn a
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`c hi me d in th at it is not .
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`
`J UDGE AR B ES: I n you r ar gu me nts t oda y
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`r eg a rdin g c lai m i nt e rp re tat ion , ar e yo u ap pl yin g th e b ro ade st
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`r e aso nab le int erpr e tat ion o r th e Phi llips st and ard?
`
`M R . S ENDEK: Cou ld I hav e a mo me n t , You r
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`Hon or?
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`J UDGE AR B ES: S u re .
`
`M R . S ENDEK: It is e xpi re d , You r Hon or . So i t is
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`th e o r di na r y me a ni ng .
`
`J UDGE AR B ES: I be li eve in you r r ep l y b ri ef yo u
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`h ad re f er en ce d the br oad es t r e asona bl e int e rp re tat ion a
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`nu mb e r of ti me s?
`
`M R . S ENDEK: I h av e to wait fo r my c o - coun se l
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`to ch e ck int o th at. I ' m n o t f a mi li a r wi th th e p ar t you a r e
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`r e f er rin g to .
`
`J UDGE AR B ES: I be li eve it i s pa ge s 2 and 3 o f
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`th e re pl y b ri ef . Jus t to cl ar if y, t h e a rg u me nt s you are ma k in g
`
`to da y a r e und er th e Phill ips s tan dar d?
`
`M R . S ENDEK: If th e p ate nt is expi r ed , and it
`
`lo oks l ike it is , th en , ye s , i t ap pe ar s th at the Phi l lips , o r
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`o rdin a r y me a nin g st and a rd sh ould a ppl y, a nd tha t 's wh at Dr .
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`Tu rk g av e us .
`
`S o wh eth e r it i s th e b roa de st r e ason abl e
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`in te rp r eta tion in vi e w o f th e sp e c o r th e o rdin a r y me an ing
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`st and a rd , we would exp e ct th e m t o b e -- i t is o ur p osi tion tha t
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`i t is t h e s a me , t hat d et e ct and id enti f y me a n t he s a me thi ng
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`un de r e ith e r int e rp re ta tion .
`
`Th e re a re a nu mb e r o f ex a mp le s , too , and this isn 't
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`a ll t ha t Dr . Turk h ad to sa y a bo ut d et ec ting and i dent if y.
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`Th e re a re a nu mb e r o f ex a mp le s wh er e Ma gna sa ys h er e i s
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`wh e re i n th e sp eci fi ca tion yo u can t ell whe r e we a re
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`p re li mi n ar il y i dent if yi ng s o me th ing , and t hen giving yo u thi s
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`mo r e r e fi ned ide nt ifi c atio n o f wha t i t is .
`
`B ut all o f t hos e ar e u nde r mi n ed eith er b y th e
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`sp e ci fi cat ion i tsel f o r b y Dr . Tu rk a ga in . Re ca ll , ag a in , we
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`h ad th at fig ur e 7 wh e re i t t alks about cou nting up pix els to
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`id en tif y h e ad lights and t ai llig hts .
`
`Dr . Tu rk ad mi tt ed i n th e d eposi tion t ha t th at can 't
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`t ell th e di ff e ren ce be t we en a h ea dlig ht and a st re et ligh t or a
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`t ail ligh t an d a s topl ight . It is jus t c ount ing up r ed or whit e
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`pi xe ls .
`
`Th e re is a noth er e xa mp l e Dr . Tu rk g av e , or I
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`b eli ev e M agn a g av e wh er e i t ta lks a bout id enti fi ca tion of
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`t r af fi c si gns .
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`Dr . Tu rk ad mi ts at p ag e 185 to 187 o f th e
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`d epos itio n tr an scr ipt tha t th e re i s no te a ching in the ' 664
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`p at ent o r th e v a riou s sp ec ifi c atio ns t ha t co r re spond to th at ,
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`b ec aus e s o me ti me s we as ked hi m a bout th e ' 023 p ate nt , bu t
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`th e y a r e all the same s p e ci fi ca tion , a nd h e s aid t he r e is no wa y
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`to do th at .
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` 14
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`

`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`
`F in all y, e v en un de r M agn a' s de fin it ion ,
`
`Ke nu e me e ts t he c l ai m l i mi t atio n . Ke nu e a ns we rs th e
`
`qu est ion o f wh ethe r so me th ing i s pr e sen t an d th en ans we rs th e
`
`qu est ion o f wh at th at thing is . This i s dis cus sed at le ngth in
`
`ou r re pl y b ri ef at p ag es 5 to 7 .
`
`S o ul ti ma t el y t his is a no n - issu e . Wh e th e r it i s
`
`th i s mo r e so phis ti c ate d but u ndis clos ed d et e cting and
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`id en tif yi ng p r elimi n a r y - - wh eth er so me t hing is p re se nt o r not
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`a nd th en wh at that s o me th ing is or i t si mp l y me a n s th e s a me
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`th ing , Kenu e dis clo se s both v a ri ation s of th at .
`
`J UDGE AR B ES: C ouns el , o ne q uest io n re ga rdi ng
`
`th at . You s aid t ha t th e cha ll eng ed p at ent , t he s pe ci fi c ation in
`
`th e ch all eng ed p at ent doe s not t al k a bout looki ng for oth e r
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`t yp es of ob ject s .
`
`B ut i t do es me n tion looki ng f or stop signs , ye l lo w
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`t ri angl es , c autio n si gns , and th e l ik e?
`
`M R . S E NDEK: Su re . And th at 's th e p ar t I was
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`ju st re f er rin g you to of Dr . Tu rk 's te sti mo n y, 1 85 . Th at 's a
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`pu r el y a spi r atio na l st at e me n t . The r e is no wa y th at on e is
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`t augh t in t he p at ent ho w to d o th at .
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`You cou ld us e a ca me r a - - si mp l y wr it ing do wn ,
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`h e y, I c o uld us e a c a me r a to r eco gni z e a t r af fi c s ign , I c ould
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`us e a c a me r a to re co gni ze f ac ial f ea tu re s an d id enti fy wh o th at
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`p er son i s , th at 's a lo ng wa y f ro m a c tu all y i mp l e me n t ing it .
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Th at 's n ot so me t hin g th at a
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`p er son o f o rdin a ry s k ill in th e a rt wou ld und e rst and?
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`M R . S ENDEK: Dr . Tu rk expl ain ed t o us th at , no ,
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`i t is no t th er e . Dr . Tu rk is a v er y we ll - cr ed enti al ed p er son
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`a nd h e o ff e red up a t th e d epos itio n hi s thi nking of ho w h e
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`wou ld do i t tod a y, bu t I d on 't b eli ev e th e re i s a n y r ec or d
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`e vid en c e tha t a pe r son o f o rdin a r y sk ill i n th e a rt wou ld kno w
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`ho w to do t ha t sor t o f a lgo rith m a t th e t i me o f th e inv ent ion .
`
`I woul d be hap p y to he a r an ad mi ssi on fro m M a g na
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`th at tha t wa s th e c as e b e cau se tha t wou ld st r ea ml i ne a lot of
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`th e o the r i ssu es th at we a r e d eal ing with , bu t I d oubt th e y wil l
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`vo lunt e er t ha t admi s s ion .
`
`Ano the r att a ck , i f I c an mo v e on , unl es s th er e ar e
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`a n y ot he r qu est ions on th at po int , I wil l mo ve o n to sl id e 5 o f
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`ou r p r ese nta tion .
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`Ano the r att a ck on Ke nu e is ma d e in t he con tex t of
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`th e cl ai m l i mi t ation s th at th e cl ai ms r equi re de te cti on t o me a n
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`th at the ob jec ts ar e d et e ct ed to b e p re se nt in s ubst ant ia ll y t he
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`e nti r e f ie ld o f vi ew.
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`Th e in se rti on in to t he cl ai m l a ngua ge of the ent ir e
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`f i eld o f vi e w i s uns uppo rt abl e , e spe c ial l y und e r th e b ro ade st
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`r e aso nab le cons tru cti on st and ar d - - I ' m s o r r y, un de r th e
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`M a rk ma n st and ard .
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`Th e const ru cti on wou ld b e co nt ra ry t o th e
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`sp e ci fi cat ion . For ex a mp l e , th e obje c ts id en ti fie d by M a g na 's
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
`r e spons e , su ch as h ea dlig hts , t ail ligh ts a nd st r ee tlight s , do no t
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`a pp ea r in subst ant ial l y th e enti r e fi eld of v ie w of the se nso r .
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`Th e re fo re , M agn a' s o wn pa ten t dis clo se s i mp le me n t at ion
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`si mi l a r to Kenu e . He a dligh ts wou ld o bviou sl y no t be in t he
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`sk y, i s an eas y e xa mp l e o f t ha t .
`
`Th e '664 p at ent sta t es it tak es into a c c oun t th e
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`r e lat iv e lo ca tion o f th e so ur ce of lig ht wit hin t he f ra me . An d ,
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`a ga in , th is is ano th er one of thos e a spi r atio nal st ateme n t s
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`b ec aus e , re c all , th at t he o nl y a lgo ri th m t au ght b y t he pa te nt
`
`h as no wa y o f reme mb e r i ng wh e re th ose high int ensi t y pix els
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`c a me f r o m.
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`S o M agn a s a ys , oh , yo u c an l ook at whe re th ese
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`l ight s our c es ar e in th e f r a me . Tha t do esn 't a ctu ally t e a c h us
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`a wa y t o do tha t . B ut t hat is n eithe r h e re nor th er e f o r this
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`pu rpo se wh e re we a r e s a yin g it d oes r eco gni ze tha t th er e i s
`
`th is no ti on o f lo oki ng onl y i n ce rt ain pl ac es , so the n to ta ke
`
`th e cl ai m i nt e rpr et ati on to ex clud e th at cl ai m i s i mp rop e r .
`
`M ovin g on to slide 6 . M agn a cr iti ci z es th e
`
`di sc losu re of Kenu e b y c l ai mi ng t ha t it is on l y c ap abl e o f
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`d et ec ting lan e ma r ke rs and not ob je c ts . Th at si mp l y i s n 't t ru e .
`
`Ke nu e on i ts f a ce s a ys it c an d et e ct lan e ma r k er s and i t c an
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`a lso d et e ct obs ta cl es . Lan e ma r ke rs a re o b je ct s as we ll .
`
`And , se cond , it look s fo r l an e ma r ke r s - - obs ta cl es
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`th at a re sep a ra te f r o m t he lan e ma r k er s b y l ooking fo r e dge
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`po ints in th e f ie ld o f vi e w and withi n 50 fe et .
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`Case IPR2014-00256
`U.S. Patent No. 7,459,664
`
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`M ag na co mp l ains th is is n' t good eno ugh b ec aus e i t
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`won ' t be abl e t o pos itiv el y i d enti f y wh at s or t of ob jec t th e
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`d et ec ted obst a cle is . I b el iev e th e e xa mp l e g ive n b y Dr . Tu rk
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`is th at you wouldn 't b e abl e to tel l i f it is a box o r a f a lle n
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`t r ee .
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`Th at i s lig ht ye a rs b e yo nd th e c ap abi lit y o f the
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`a lgo rit h m d is close d in the '6 64 p ate nt o f wh at t he '664 pat en t
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`c an do . Th at 's v er y s op hist ic at ed ima g e p ro ce ssing th at is
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`wa y b e yo nd wha t is ta ught h e re .
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`No thin g in th e c la i m f o r t hat ma t te r r equi r es th is
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`so rt of p osit ive id ent ifi c atio n of wh at s or t of ob jec t it is o r
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`c a teg ori z atio n . And ho w c ould it c l ai m t h at wh en i t do esn 't
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`t e ach ho w to d o th at?
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`I de nti fi ca tion o f ob je cts oth er than h e adli ghts and
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`t ail ligh ts a t nig ht is be yo nd th e re ac h o f th e '664 p ate nt , and
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`Dr . Tu rk ad mi tt ed t ha t . Fo r ex a mpl e , i f yo u look at p ag e 186
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`o f th e d epos ition , h e a d mi ts th at the r e is no dis cl osur e fo r
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`ho w to , for ex a mpl e , re cog niz e t he st op si gn o r a caut ion s ign .
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`Ev en un de r Ma gna ' s - - and I ' m v e ry e a g e r to he a r
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`M ag na 's r espon se to th e Bo a rd 's que sti on , b y t he way, o f
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`wh eth e r o r not t ha t so rt o f re cog nit ion wou ld h ave b ee n
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`ob vious to a pe rson of o rd ina r y s ki ll in the a rt at the ti me .
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`Ev en un de r Magna ' s c onst