trials@uspto.gov
`571-272-7822
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`Paper No. 38
`April 3, 2015
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`RECORD OF ORAL HEARING
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`- - - - - -
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - -
`
`
`TRW AUTOMOTIVE US LLC,
`Petitioner,
`vs.
`MAGNA ELECTRONICS INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - -
`Case IPR 2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
`
`- - - - - -
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`
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`Oral Hearing Held: Thursday, February 19, 2015
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`Before: JUSTIN T. ARBES, BENJAMIN D. M. WOOD, and NEIL
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`
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`T. POWELL, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`
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`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Thursday, February
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`19, 2015 at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, 600 Dulany Street,
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`Alexandria, Virginia in Hearing Room B at 3:10 p.m.
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`APPEARANCES:
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`TIMOTHY SENDEK, ESQ.
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`Lathrop & Gage LLP
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`155 North Wacker Drive, Suite 3000
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`Chicago, Illinois 60602
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`312-920-3319
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`A. JUSTIN POPLIN, ESQ.
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`HISSAN ANIS, ESQ.
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`Lathrop & Gage LLP
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`10851 Mastin Boulevard
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`Building 82, Suite 1000
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`Overland Park, Kansas 66210
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`913-451-5100
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`ROBERT GREENE STERNE, ESQ.
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`DAVID K.S. CORNWELL, ESQ.
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`RICHARD D. COLLER, III, ESQ.
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`JASON D. EISENBERG, ESQ.
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`Sterne Kessler Goldstein Fox
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`
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`1000 New York Avenue, N.W.
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`Washington, D.C. 20005
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`202-371-2600
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`Case IPR2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
`
`
`P R O C E E D I N G S
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`( 3:10 p . m. )
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Ev e r yon e r e ad y? Ok a y. We c a n
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`go ba ck on the r ec or d . This is th e f in al h ea ri ng o f th e d a y in
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`I P R20 14 - 00266 , inv olvin g pa ten t 7, 99 4 ,462 .
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`We wi ll fo llo w t he sa me p r oc edu r es as t he l as t
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`h ea ri ngs . Pe titi on er , yo u h av e 45 mi n ut es .
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`M R . S ENDEK: Th ank y o u , You r Hon or . I f it
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`pl e as es th e Boa rd, we wil l ha nd up a co p y o f ou r l ast s et of
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`d e mo nst r ativ es .
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`Goo d a ft e rnoon , You r Ho nor s , Tim S e nd ek ag ain
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`a pp ea rin g on b eha l f of th e P eti tione r , TRW Au to mo tiv e US
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`LLC . Wi t h me ag ain is M r . Hi ssan An is and Ju stin P opl in .
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`We ' r e a ddr es sing , a s th e Boa rd n ote d b efo r e , th e '462 p at ent .
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`I f yo u lo ok a t slid e 1 we h ave a sing le g rou nd o f
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`r e je cti on , a ll unde r 1 02 und e r th e Ke nu e r e fe r enc e , c ov er ing
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`f iv e di f fe r ent cl aims .
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`Th e Boa rd h as inst itut ed tha t on e g roun d an d in so
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`do ing h as found th at Pe tit ione r i s lik el y t o p re va il on t he
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`a rg u me nt s co nta in ed wi thin t ha t grou nd . Th e ch al leng es with
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`r eg a rd to - - b y M a gn a with r eg ard to Ken ue s hould b e f a mi l ia r
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`to th e Bo a rd b y no w. We h ave cove r ed all o f t he m a t le ast in
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`so me wa y, s h ape , o r for m.
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`Th e fi rst , i f yo u go to sl ide 3 , Kenu e dis cl ose s a
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`t wo -d i me ns ion al a r r a y o f lig ht s ensi ng pho tos enso r e l e me nts .
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`Case IPR2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
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`And M agn a a rgu es , as i t ha s in o the r con tex ts , th at th e a r ra y
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`o f Kenu e is no t two -di me n sio na l or ne ed n ot b e
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`t wo -d i me ns ion a l . M ag na , ag ain , ign or es t he s tr aight fo r war d
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`a d mi ssi on o f its own exp e rt , Dr . Tur k .
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`And th at - - i f yo u go to sl ide 4 , you s e e wh er e we
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`e xpl ain whe r e th at is f ound . Kenue dis clo ses a
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`t wo -d i me ns ion al i ma g e r wh en i t r ef e rs to a c a me r a ima g e
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`pl an e . Dr . Tu rk a d mi ts t ha t th e c ame r a i ma g e pl an e is th e
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`i ma g e r and th e p la ne con not es a t wo -di me n sio nal sur f a ce .
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`Th is is at p ag e 198 o f Dr . Tu rk 's t ra ns cr ipt .
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`F u rth er , Kenu e dis clo ses tha t th e ima g e i s
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`51 2 -b y- 5 12 . Ke nu e t alks abo ut a sin gl e r a w i ma g e be ing
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`di giti z ed in to thi s id en tif ie d t wo -dime n s ion al i ma g e . Th e re is
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`no r ea son to b el iev e th at a on e - di me nsio na l sc ann e r a s a rg ued
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`b y Dr . Tu rk is b ein g us ed . And Dr. M ill e r not es t hat tha t
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`wou ld b e i mp r a cti c al in this appl ica tio n .
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`M or eov e r , a s I me nti one d a mo me nt ago , th e
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`51 2 -b y- 5 12 i ma ge t alks abou t be ing d igit iz ed fr o m a sing le
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`r a w i ma g e . I f Magn a wer e co rr ec t th at it was fro m a si ngl e
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`l ine sc ann e r or some t h ing lik e th at , i t would be d igiti z ed f ro m
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`51 2 i ma g es , no t a si ngl e r a w i ma g e.
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`I f we go to sl ide 5 o f th e p r ese nt atio n , M agn a ye t
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`a ga in arg ues fo r a dis tin ctio n be twe e n de te cti ng and
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`id en tif yi ng tha t its exp e rt h as tho roug hl y di sc lai me d . And
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`h er e on slid e 6 we ha ve tha t dis cl ai me r i ts el f .
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`Case IPR2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
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`De t ec tion i s a b ina r y q ue stio n , ye s o r no? In
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`d et ec tion , wh at is t h e qu es tion yo u a r e ans wer ing ye s o r no
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`to? Do es t he thing o f in te r est - - and t hes e ar e Dr . Tu rk 's
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`wo rds - - do es th e th ing o f in te r est a pp ea r h er e? And t hen th e
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`qu est ion . No w we ' r e a sking abo ut id en tif ic at ion . Th e
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`id en tif ic at ion is a bi na r y qu es tion b e t wee n whe th er th e t hing
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`yo u a re int e res ted i n is d e e me d p re se nt o r not?
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`And th e an s we r is: Yes .
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`B oth d et e ctio n and i den ti fi cat ion , a c co rdin g to
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`Dr . Tu rk , is ans we r ing th e qu est ion o f wh eth e r o r not
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`so me t hi ng is p r ese nt .
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`M ag na 's a rgu me nt tha t th e y me a n di f fe r ent t hings ,
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`wh ich we h av e cov er ed at l eng th , is withou t supp ort, wh en i ts
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`o wn exp e rt un de rc uts tha t a rgu me n t .
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`On to sli de 7 .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: C ouns el , the lan gu ag e of th ese
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`c l ai ms is a li ttl e bi t di f fe re nt th an th e l ang uag e we h ad d ea lt
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`wi th e a rl i e r r eg ardi ng d et ect ion and i den ti fi cat ion wh er e we
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`do n' t ha ve the same l a ng uag e o f de t ect to id ent if y. C an yo u
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`t alk abo ut th e di ff e r enc e b et we en -- is t he r e a d if f ere nc e
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`b et wee n ho w we sh ould i nt erp r et tho se t e r ms in t he ot he r cas e
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`v er sus t his ca se?
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`M R . S ENDEK: I b eli ev e - - o ur p osi tion i s th e
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`s a me , t hat th e de te c t - - ou r po siti on ma t ch es Dr . Tur k 's
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`po siti on , th at d ete c t an d id enti f y a r e u se d int e rch ang ea bl y a nd
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`Case IPR2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
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`th e y me a n the same t h ing . Dr . Tur k s a ys d et ec t me a ns
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`id en tif y, ye s o r no , wh et he r so me t hi n g is p r es ent . And
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`Dr . Tu rk s a ys i dent if y i s i den ti f y ye s o r no o r ans wer th e
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`qu est ion -- I s hould n' t us e id ent if y t wic e in the sa me qu est ion .
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`De t ec t me a ns a nswe r the que stio n ye s o r no , is th e
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`th ing p r ese nt . And ide nti f y me a ns a ns wer th e que stio n ye s o r
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`no , is th e th ing pr e sen t .
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`Dr . Tu rk is who th e y r e l y on fo r this id ea t ha t
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`d et ec ting and i dent if yi ng a re t he sa me t h ing . And h e th r e w
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`th at a rgu me n t a wa y. He a r gu ed -- h e a gr e ed th at t hey d o me a n
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`th e s a me t hing .
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`Th at 's what c ross - ex a mi n ati on is fo r . We
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`c ro ss -ex a mi n ed th ei r wit nes s , who th e y s a y i s f a r be tt er th an
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`ou r wi tne ss es , our witn es s . And the i r ex pe rt with this issu e
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`a nd ma n y o th e r issu es d id not suppo rt wh at was p ut in th e
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`d ec la r atio n .
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`And I wo uld su bmi t t o th e B oa rd th at t hat 's
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`e nti r el y t h e p oint o f doi ng c ro ss - ex a mi na tion be ca us e wh eth e r
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`o r not Dr . Turk be a rs t he c red ent ials th at h e be a rs , th e
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`qu est ion i s do es h e r e all y s uppo rt th e po siti ons h e put s
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`f o r wa rd o r di d some b o d y wr it e thos e pos itio ns f or hi m a n d h e
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`si gne d o ff o n a de c la r ation?
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`And I wo uld arg ue th at th e nu mb e r o f in sta nc es
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`wh e re Dr . Tu rk t est if ie d co ntr a r y to wh at 's in th e d ec l ar ati on
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`a nd wh e re , i n f a ct , Dr . Tu rk t es ti fie s a t l ength abo ut th ings
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`Case IPR2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
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`th at a re in th e d ec l ar ati on th at h e h as no bas is for kno wing o r
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`un de rst and ing , str o ngl y s ugg es ts th at t hat 's th e point , th e
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`c as e .
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`S o to ans we r your qu esti on , we don 't b el iev e i t
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`sh ould b e h andl ed d if f er ent l y h er e b ec aus e ou r p osit ion
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`r e ma i ns the sa me , d et ec t an d id entif y a r e us ed in te r ch ang ea bl y
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`a nd me a n th e s a me thi ng .
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`M ag na ag ain c l aims t h at i f we look at s lid e 7 o f
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`th e p r ese nt ation , M ag na ag ain cl aims Ke n u e do es not id enti f y
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`ob je cts be ca use it do esn 't id enti f y th e m s pe ci fi c all y e nough .
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`F i rst o f all , t he '462 pat en t doe sn 't c o me a n ywh e re ne a r th e
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`l ev el o f sp e cif ic ity t o supp ort su c h a dis tin ct -- suc h a n
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`in te rp r eta tion . Ke nu e do es id ent ify o b je ct s .
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`F i rst , and ob viousl y i nd isput abl y i d ent ifi es lan e
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`ma r k e r s a s be ing l an e ma r ke rs . And i t a lso us es the t wo -s te p
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`a ddi tion al -- use s th e t wo - ste p ini ti al d et e r mi na tion , th en
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`f i r me r an s we r , whi ch cons titu te s id ent ifi c atio n unde r M agn a' s
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`po int o f vi e w. And in ou r rep l y we poin t th at ou t a t p ag es 6
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`th rou gh 9 th at it me e t s ex ac tl y wha t M agn a i s look ing fo r in
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`t e r ms of fi rst dete c ting o b je ct s and t hen id enti f yi ng t he m a s
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`we h ave gone over a t l ength o bst acl es .
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`M ovin g on to slide 8 , M agn a cha ll eng es t ha t
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`Ke nu e t ea ch es p at te rn re cog nitio n . Dr . Tu rk h as con ce ded
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`th is po int . It is cr ys t al cl ea r - - I wi ll put on th e ELM O - - and ,
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`no , M agn a do esn 't lik e it wh en I put Dr . Turk 's te sti mo n y o n
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`Case IPR2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
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`th e EL M O, bu t this is cit ed in our r ep l y, so it is not c o mi ng as
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`a su rp ris e to t hem, n ot tha t th e y we r en 't at t he d epos itio n in
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`th e fi rst p la c e .
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`51 of t he d epo sition tr ans c ript : C la ssi fi c ation
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`t e chniq ues , ma t c hi ng t ec hniqu es and est i ma t ion t echn iqu es a r e
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`a ll t hings th at you wo uld cons ide r to be p at te rn re cogn ition?
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`" Ans wer : Ye s .
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`" Que stion : Wha t is an ex a mp le of ma t c h ing
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`t e chniq ues?
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`" Ans wer : Te mp la t e ma t ching is an ex a mp le whe r e
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`yo u ha ve a t e mp la t e whi ch is an ima g e o r p ar t o f an i ma g e ,
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`a nd yo u tr y t o ma t ch t hat to anoth er i ma g e o r po rti on o f
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`a noth e r i ma g e t o s ee ho w clos e th e t wo a re . " And he ag r ee d
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`th at te mp l at e ma tc hing is kno wn .
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`We k no w t e mp l ate ma t c hin g is kn own b e ca use
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`Ke nu e dis clo se s te mp l a te ma t c hing. S o we ha ve Dr . Tu rk 's
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`gi ving ma t c hing te ch niqu es as an ex a mp le of pat te rn
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`r e cogn itio n , giv ing te mp l at e ma t chi ng a s an ex a mp l e o f
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`ma t c h ing t ec hniqu es . And th at c omp l e t el y un de r cuts th e
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`no tion , d e fini tiv el y, t h at Kenue doe sn 't t e ach pa tte rn
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`r e cogn itio n . Ke nu e s a ys i n bl ack and whit e th at i t us es
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`t e mp l ate ma t c hing .
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`Th at 's foun d a t col u mn 4 , lin e 21 . Th e exa ct
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`wo rds , te mp l at e ma t c h ing , ar e us ed b y Ke n ue . An d in slid e 9 ,
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`Ke nu e id enti fi es ob je cts in th e forwa r d f iel d of vi ew o f th e
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`Case IPR2014-00266
`Patent No. 7,994,462
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`s enso r . Mag na a rgu es t ha t th e ob jec ts i den ti fi ed b y Ke nu e a r e
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`no t in fo r wa rd fi eld of v ie w.
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`M ag na , ag ain , i gno r es th at Kenu e lo oks fo r an d
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`id en tif ie s obst a cle s . So to a rgu e th at t he Kenu e a s M ag na
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`c l ai ms is s tru ct ura ll y a nd ph ysi c ally i n c ap abl e o f ide nti f yi ng
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`ob je cts is to tal l y c ont r adi cto r y to wh at Kenu e s a ys on it s fa c e ,
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`th at it can det e ct ob sta cl es in th e fo r ward fi eld of vie w on t he
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`r oa d ah e ad o f th e c a r .
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`Th e '462 p at ent at col u mn 1 0 , lin es 4 th rough 8 ,
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`c ont e mp l ate s r es tr i cting th e f iel d of vi e w, for ex a mp l e , th at it
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`" ta kes into a cco unt th e r el ativ e l oca tio n of the sou rce of ligh t
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`wi thin t he sc en e ." I f you put aside fo r t he mo me n t th e fa ct
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`th at at le ast if yo u we re i mp l e me n tin g th at figu r e 7 a lgo rit h m,
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`th e re is act ua ll y no wa y t o do th at b ec aus e figu r e 7 , i f you
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`r e c all , do es not t ra ck whe r e th e c oun ted pix els c a me f ro m
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`wi thin t he f ra me .
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`B ut Mag na h as to l ive with t he f act th at it t alks
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`a bout looki ng a t th e r el at ive loc at ion withi n th e f r ame t o
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`id en tif y wh e r e obje c ts ar e . It can not tu rn a rou nd a nd s a y
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`do ing ju st th at in th e cont ext of Kenu e do esn 't me e t th e
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`c l ai ms .
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`And on sl ide 11 , M ag na , ag ain , argu es t ha t th e
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`id en tif ic at ion o f ob je cts in Kenu e is not "en han c ed ." We h av e
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`di scu ss ed thi s be fo re , but Kenu e doe s ind e ed me e t t his
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`l i mi ta tion .
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`I f we go on to s lid e 12 , Kenu e ma tc he s th e po rtio n
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`o f th e cen tr oid o f th e ma r k e r with wh e re i t wa s in th e p rev ious
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`f r a me . P r oc es sing p rov ide s a t le ast s qua r es ana l ysi s to
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`a sc e rt ain t he b ound a ri es . Thi s is a ll i n th e p etit ion a t 41 .
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`Th is h as b een in th e r e co rd sin c e da y o n e .
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`M ag na co mp l ains th at be ca use it look s at whe r e
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`th e l an e ma r k ers a r e mi ss ing , it doe s not co mp a r e l an e
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`ma r k e r s an d it d oe s not do so f ro m p re viou s f r a me s . I t do es
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`c o mp a r e la ne ma r k er s f ro m p r e vious f ra me s . I t co mp ar es
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`th ei r cen tr oids f ro m o n e f r a me to a noth e r .
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`Th e fa ct t ha t it use s th at i nf or ma t io n t o fo r m mo r e
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`th an o ne , to id enti f y wh e re lan e ma r ke rs a re mi s sing , to
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`id en tif y t h e l ane bo unda ri es , d oe sn 't d i mi nish th e fa c t th at it
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`id en tif ie s l ane ma rk e rs fr a me o ve r f r a me a nd co mp ar e s whe r e
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`th e y a r e n o w, to wh e re t he y u se d to b e .
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`And with t ha t , You r Hon or , u nl ess th e re is an y
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`qu est ions , I wi ll re se rv e th e re ma i nd er of my t i me .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Al l r ight .
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: Ma y I a pp ro ac h?
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Ye s .
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: Good aft e rnoon, You r Ho nor s .
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`M a y i t pl e ase th e B oa rd , my n a me is Ja son Ei s en be rg fo r
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`P a ten t Own er M agn a El e ct roni cs .
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`We a r e dis cuss ing t he '46 2 pa te nt , wh ich as my
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`c ouns el sai d is v er y s i mi l a r to the '66 4 pa ten t dis cuss ed th is
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`mo r n ing , as ar e ma n y o f th e issu es . The o ne ma jo r is su e th at
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`is di ff e ren t is t he a nti cip at ion .
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`S o th e th r esho ld fo r findi ng inv al idi t y is t ha t not
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`on l y do es Kenu e h av e to t e ach e ach o f th e el e me nt s in th e
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`c l ai ms , but it h as to te a ch it as a ra ng e in t he cl ai ms i n th e
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`s a me wa y t h at the c l ai ms a r e r e citing the el e me n ts . S o it is
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`st ri ct e r th an th e obv iou sn ess a rgu me nts we wer e ma kin g thi s
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`mo r n ing .
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`I wil l be add r essing the t wo -di me nsi ona l a r ra y, t h e
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`f o r wa rd fi eld o f vi e w, d et ec t an d ide nti f y, a nd t he enh an cing .
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`On e no te I want to ma k e is th at t hey c o nt inu e to s a y th at
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`Dr . Tu rk h as chang ed t he d e fini tion s of d et e ct and id ent if y o r
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`h as eli mi n at ed the i r di ff e re nc es .
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`B ut I th ink we nee d to n ot e , this is a non -e xpi re d
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`p at ent . Th is is goi ng to b e in te rp re t ed und e r B R I . And Dr .
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`Tu rk i n his tes ti mon y, we b el iev e , su ppo rts t he p ositio ns we' r e
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`ma k i ng , as well as i s c onsis ten t with th e posi tions in t he
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`sp e ci fi cat ion . And we b eli ev e th at th e cl ai ms shou ld b e
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`in te rp r ete d in vi ew o f th e sp e ci fi cat ion to be cons iste nt wi th
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`th at and con sist ent with the p a rts o f Dr . Tu rk 's t esti mo n y we
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`wi ll di scu ss th at a r e exa ct l y th e s ame a s we ' r e arg uing wha t
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`d et ec t an d id enti fy me a n a nd t ha t th e y a r e t wo di ff er en t t er ms .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: C ouns el , a re yo u a dvo ca ting the
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`s a me i nte rp r et ation fo r d et ec t an d id en tif y i n t he '256 c ase as
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`yo u a re in th is cas e?
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: Yes .
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`J UD GE AR B ES: Ar e the y t h e s a me?
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: Yes . The y a r e th e s a me i n
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`vi e w o f th e cl ai ms b ein g ve r y s i mi l a r . Th e y both go i nto
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`id en tif yi ng o b jects . He re we ' re advo c atin g it in vi ew o f wh at
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`th es e cla i ms sa y a nd no t ne c ess ar il y e x a ctl y t he same a s i t is
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`in th e oth er c as e b ec aus e t he cl ai ms a re s ligh tl y di f fe r ent .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: Ok a y. I b eli ev e in t he e arl ie r
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`c as e , yo u ha d s aid t ha t id enti f y me a ns in so me s ens e
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`d et er mi n ing wh at th e ob je ct is , r ight?
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: Co rr e ct .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: And wha t I a m l ook ing at in
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`c l ai m 3 0 , f or insta nc e , i n this c as e, i t is: “wh e r ei n s aid
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`p att e rn re cogn ition co mp r is es d et ect ion o f a t l eas t one of , A
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`h ea dlig ht , B , a t ai lligh t , a nd C an ob je ct . " I t se e ms to me
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`h er e t hat yo u ar e us ing th e wo rd "de t ect ion " fo r d et e r mi n ing
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`wh at i t is .
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: I th ink i f yo u re ad th e cl ai m a s
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`a whol e , you will s ee th at it st ate s " whe r ein t he p at te rn
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`r e cogn itio n co mp r is es d et ec tion o f th es e ob je cts and wh e rei n
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`th e p att e rn re cogni tion is b ase d on a t l ea st in pa rt sh ap e ,
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`r e fl e c tiv it y, lu mi n an ce , and s pe ct ra l cha r ac te ris ti cs ."
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`And if yo u tu rn to colu mn 1 1 , lin es 1 th rough 1 5
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`o f th e '462 p at ent, yo u will not e tha t th ose ex ac t wor ds ar e
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`us ed , ex cep t it s ays , " p att e rn r e cogni tion ide nti fi es ob je ct o f
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`in te r est b as ed on sh ap e , re fl e c tivi ty, l u mi n an c e , a nd sp e ct ra l
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`c ha r ac te ris ti cs ."
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`S o as a whol e we h av e id enti fi ed ob je cts i n th e
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`f o r wa rd fi eld o f vi e w. Th e p att e rn d et ec ts it and the p att e rn
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`r e cogn iz es , b as ed on tha t . And whe n you look at the
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`sp e ci fi cat ion , to re ma i n con sist ent wi t h it , tha t r e cogn ition
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`a sp ec t of sha pe , re f le cti vit y, l u mi na nc e , and sp e ct ral
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`c ha r ac te ris ti cs ref l ect s on t hat be ing ide nti fi ca tion .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: B ut , couns el , what con c ern s me
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`h er e i s in colu mn 11 it s a ys p att e rn re cog niti on id ent if ie s
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`ob je cts . So the pa tt er n r e cogni tion is wha t is re sponsi bl e fo r
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`id en tif yi ng an obje c t , but he r e your c la i m s a ys whe re in s aid
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`p att e rn re cogn ition co mp r is es d et ect ion o f a n ob jec t .
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: Actu al l y, in 1 1 , i t sa ys p att er n
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`r e cogn itio n ma y b e us ed to fu rth e r a ssi st i n the det ec tio n of
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`h ea dlig hts , t ail light s , an d oth e r ob je c ts o f int e re st . P a tt ern
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`r e cogn itio n id entif i es ob je cts o f i nte r est bas ed o n the i r sh ape ,
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`r e fl e ctiv it y, lu mi n an ce , and s pa tial ch ar a ct er isti cs .
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`S o it is act ua ll y a l mo s t th e sa me a s th e cl ai m
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`l angu ag e . Pat te rn re cog niti on d ete c ts it , the n or , in addi tion
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`to or it a lso go es on to r e cogn iz e ba se d on th ose thing s wha t it
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`is .
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`S o I thin k it i s not n e ce ssa ri l y in cons ist ent with
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`th e sp e ci fi ca tion wh en yo u look at th ose t wo pi e ce s o f
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`sp e ci fi cat ion and yo u look at t he cla i ms .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: I t s ee ms t o me tha t you r u se o f
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`id en tif ie s an d de te c t in th is cla i m i s n ot re all y c on sist en t with
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`wh at yo u we r e a rgu ing ea rli e r . I t s ee ms t o me th at wh en yo u
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`a r e t alk ing about p att e rn re cogn ition , i t shou ld h av e b ee n
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`" id enti fi es" th er e. B ut i den ti fie s app e ar s in th e p r evi ous
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`l i mi ta tion o f just g en er all y i d enti f yin g th e ob je ct .
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: It is sli ghtl y d if f e re nt in
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`c l ari fi c atio n , but we b eli ev e r ea d in v ie w of t he s pec i fic at ion ,
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`th at 's wha t th e c la i m i s me a nt t o cov e r , th at th e i dent if ied
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`ob je cts in th e forwa r d f iel d of vi ew v ia p ro ce ssin g o f th e
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`c ap tu red i ma g e by s a id i ma g e p roce sso r in the pr eviou s
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`s ec tion of tha t c la i m.
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`S o it id enti fi es ob je cts b y t h e i ma g e p roc es sor , th e
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`i ma g e p ro c esso r c o mp r ise s pa tt ern r e cogn itio n , an d th e
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`p att e rn re cogn ition d et e cts h ea dlight , ta illi ght , o r ob je ct , and
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`th e p att e rn re cogni tion bas ed i n par t on the sha pe , re f le cti vit y,
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`lu mi n an c e .
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`S o i f you tak e t he id en tif ie d ob jec ts b y t h e i ma g e
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`p ro ce sso r , th e i ma ge pro c esso r us ing the pa tte rn r ecog nitio n
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`do es t he d et e ction and t hen doe s th e oth e r a spe ct s . Wh e n you
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`r e ad t hat in con jun cti on with co lumn 1 1 , I b eli ev e it is a
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`si mi l a r s cop e whe r e you a re id entif yi ng ba sed o n the pa tt ern
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`r e cogn itio n as pe cts of sha pe , r efl ec tiv it y, l u mi nan ce , an d
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`sp e ct ra l ch a ra ct e ris ti cs .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: B ut , ag ain , wh en I a m l o oking
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`f o r stop signs or r ed oc tag ons fo r st op sig ns , ye llow t ri ang les
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`f o r c aut ion si gns , wh en I a m i d en tif yi ng thos e , wh at th e y a r e ,
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`I a m d o ing th at by s h ap e o r colo r , th e t hings tha t a re lis ted
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`h er e , bu t I a m i d ent if yi ng t he m i n yo u r v ie w, not d et e cting
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`th e m?
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: We ll , yo u wou ld n ot n eed to
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`p er fo r m i d enti fi ca tio n unl ess yo u kn o w so me t hing is t he r e .
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`S o you hav e to hav e a pr es en ce o r a bs enc e , and t hen f r o m t he
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`p re se nc e o r a b se nc e , yo u woul d a lso want to d ete r mi n e wh at i t
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`is .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: B ut do I u se , d o I us e sh ap e o r
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`c olo r to det e ct o r do I us e i t to i dent if y? I gu ess tha t 's th e
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`qu est ion .
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: The d et e ction is p r es enc e o r
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`a bs enc e . An d th e id en tif ic at ion i s sh ap e o r c olo r . Ea r lie r yo u
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`h ad ask ed me i f we h ad oth e r de fini tion s of ide nti fic a tion o r
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`su ppo rt . And TRW' s c ouns el , when I t alk ed about loo kup
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`t abl es , s ai d th at th at was no t sp ec if i ed .
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`I we nt th roug h and we act ua ll y h ave mu l tip le
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`in st anc es o f us ing s pe ct ra l sig nat ur e s an d co mp a r ing t he m t o
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`kn o wn sp ec tr al sign atu r es , to both d et er mi n e h e adlight s ,
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`t ail ligh ts , a nd t raf f ic signs . And I c an giv e you t hose
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`c it ati ons i f you wou ld li ke t he m a t 2 , 6 thr ough 7 ; 2 , 42 ; 7 ,
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`54 ; 8 , 5 and 10 ; at 1 0 , 22 and 38 ; an d 11 , 62; and at 12 , 3
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`th rou gh 10 . An d a ddi tion all y o u r sp ec if ic ati on d et ails at
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`c olu mn 10 , lin es 42 thr ough 4 6 th at b as ed on gov ernme n t , f or
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`e xa mp l e , fe de r al r eg ul ation s e sta blis h sp ec if ic s pe ctr a l ba nds
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`th at mu s t be util iz ed in v ehi cl e t ail light s . F urt he r mo re ,
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`f ed e ra l l egis lat ion p roh ibit s th e use of r ed l ight s our c es i n th e
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`vi ci nit y o f a hig hwa y, l a n e ma r ke rs , s igns , and o th er sou r ces
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`o f re fl ec tiv e lig ht a r e all s pe ci fi ed in a ma n ne r wh ich ma y b e
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`r e adi l y id ent if ied b y s pe ct r al si gnatu r es .
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`S o th e id en t if ic atio n go es b e yond jus t th e p att er n
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`r e cogn itio n an d go es to this ma t c hing con c ept , wh ich i s wh at
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`ou r exp er t t alks abo ut , th e ma t chi ng wh ic h we d is cuss ed
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`p re viou sl y on h ow yo u c an d et er min e wh at s o me th ing is .
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`J UDGE AR B ES: C ouns el , just thinki ng a bout t he
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`c l ai ms th at we spok e about e ar li er in th e 256 ca se , th at an
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`i ma g e sen sing s yst e m d e te ct ing obje c ts b y p ro c essing sai d
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`i ma g e d at a to id ent if y o b jec ts b as ed o n pa tt ern r ec ogn ition .
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`S o in the e ar li er c as e we id ent if y ob je cts bas ed o n
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`p att e rn re cogn itio n , b ut h er e p att e rn re cog niti on c omp r i s es
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`d et ec tion o f an ob je ct . So I a m n ot s ur e th at tha t supp ort s
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`yo u r p osit ion th at id en tif ie s an d det e cts re al l y a r e dif f e re nt
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`a nd l ine up . I t s ee ms t o me t ha t the c lai ms i n th e t wo ca se s
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`t r eat th e te r ms dif f e re ntl y.
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`M R . EI S ENB ER G: We ll , I t hink i f yo u go b ack to
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`lo oking at b oth cla us es in the cl aims i n this ca se , and it t alks
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`a bout id enti f yi ng th e ob je ct thr ough t he i ma g e pr oc ess ing ,
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`th en the i ma g e p ro ce ssin g usin g the r e cogni tion , and t ha t
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`r e cogn itio n usin g sh ap e , re fl ec tivi ty, a n d l u mi nan c e , wh en
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`yo u look at t ha t in v ie w of t he s pec i fic at ion , th at it is doing
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`t wo se pa r ate things of ide nti f yin g a nd d et ec ting .
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`And cl ai m 3 4 at th e e nd go es on to f u rth er d et e ct
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`l an e ma r ke rs and id en tif y t r a f fi c sign s , so i t ta lks a bou t
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`di f fe r ent fun cti ons o f i den ti f ying , d et ec t as wel l .
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`I s th e re an y f u rthe r cl a ri fic at ions I c an ma k e?
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`I woul d lik e to tur n to the t wo -di me nsio na l as pe ct
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`a nd th e e mp ha sis on ant ic ipa tion is wh at I wou ld like to go
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`wi th th at , ev en , ev en wi thout ant ici p at ion , bu t with
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`a nti cip at ion , you h av e to find tha t i t te a ch es t wo -dime n s ion al .
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`And TRW' s p osit ion is th at t he o utpu t me a ns th at
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`i t is t wo -d i me ns ion al o r t he wa y th at i t pe r fo r ms its o pe r ation
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`me a n s tha t it i s two -di me n sio na l . B ut wh en yo u look at h o w
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`Ke nu e is wo rk ing, a ll i t is s a yi ng is t ha t it u ses a bla ck and
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`wh ite C C D c a me r a . And t hen it digi ti zes it , and i t wo rks on
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`th at to tu rn i t into a t wo -di me n si on al i ma g e .
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`S o th e re is no n ec es sit y t h at a t wo - di me n sion al
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`c a me r a is use d . Add itio nal l y, th er e is C C D ca me r a s t ha t we
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`h av e a rgu ed i n our P OR t hat a re list ed i n oth er pr oc ee ding s
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`th at a re lin ea r d ete c tor C C Ds , th at a r e p er fo r mi ng ima g e
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`c ap tu re , as well as t he f ac t th at ou r e xp er t , whe n you r e al l y
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`lo ok a t th e qu est ion s be ing ask ed by TR W i n the depos itio n ,
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`th e y n ev e r as k i f Ke nu e wa s a t wo -di me n si ona l se nso r . Th e y
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