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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`----------------------------------------------x
`NOVEN PHARMACEUTICALS INC.,
` Petitioner,
` - against - Review No. 2014-0
` and IPR 2015-00265
`NOVARTIS AG AND LTS LOHMANN THERAPIE-SYSTEME
`AG,
` Patent Owners.
`----------------------------------------------x
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` New York, New York
` Monday, April 20, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`KATHY S. KLEPFER, RMR, RPR, CRR, CLR
`JOB NO. 92485
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`----------------------------------------------x
`NOVEN PHARMACEUTICALS INC.,
` Petitioner,
` - against - Review No. 2014-0
` and IPR 2015-00265
`NOVARTIS AG AND LTS LOHMANN THERAPIE-SYSTEME
`AG,
` Patent Owners.
`----------------------------------------------x
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` New York, New York
` Monday, April 20, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`KATHY S. KLEPFER, RMR, RPR, CRR, CLR
`JOB NO. 92485
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
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`IPR2014-00550
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` April 20, 2015
`
` Videotaped deposition of AGIS
`KYDONIEUS, PH.D., held at the offices
`of Kenyon & Kenyon, One Broadway, New
`York, New York, before Kathy S. Klepfer,
`a Registered Professional Reporter,
`Registered Merit Reporter, Certified
`Realtime Reporter, Certified Livenote
`Reporter, and Notary Public of the State
`of New York.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`KENYON & KENYON
`Attorneys for Petitioner Noven Pharmaceuticals
` One Broadway
` New York, New York 10004
`BY: CHRIS COULSON, ESQ.
` MICHAEL LEVY, ESQ.
`
`KNOBBE MARTENS OLSON & BEAR
`Attorneys for Petitioner Mylan Pharmaceuticals
` 12790 El Camino Real
` San Diego, California 92130
`BY: BENJAMIN ANGER, ESQ.
`
`FITZPATRICK CELLA HARPER & SCINTO
`Attorneys for Patent Owner
` 1290 Avenue of the Americas
` New York, New York 10104
`BY: CHARLOTTE JACOBSEN, ESQ.
` JARED STRINGHAM, ESQ.
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` CARLOS LOPEZ, Legal Video Specialist
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the start
` of tape labeled number 1 of the videotaped
` deposition of Dr. Agis Kydonieus in the
` matter of Noven Pharmaceuticals versus
` Novartis AG and LTS Therapie-Systeme AG.
` This deposition is being held at One
` Broadway, New York, New York, on April 20,
` 2015, at approximately 9:41 a.m.
` My name is Carlos Lopez. I am the
` legal video specialist from TSG Reporting,
` Inc. The court reporter is Kathy Klepfer,
` in association with TSG Reporting.
` Appearances are noted.
` Will the court reporter please swear
` in the witness.
` * * *
` (Witness sworn.)
`DR. AGIS KYDONIEUS, called as a
` witness, having been duly sworn by a Notary
` Public, was examined and testified as
` follows:
`EXAMINATION BY
`MS. JACOBSEN:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Kydonieus.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Nice to see you again.
` A. Same here.
` Q. Okay. And obviously you have been
`deposed before, including by me?
` A. Correct.
` Q. So just a quick recap on the rules for
`today.
` A. Okay.
` Q. I'll ask the questions, and I ask that
`you wait until I've finished asking my question
`before you start speaking so we get a clear
`record. Okay?
` A. Good.
` Q. I ask that you give audible answers to
`my questions.
` A. I'll try my best. I hope I don't
`sneak any Greek in there.
` Q. Yes, that will probably be appreciated
`by everybody.
` And I will do my best not to interrupt
`you while you're speaking.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. If you don't understand any of my
`
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`questions, please ask me to clarify and I will
`try to do so. Okay?
` A. Good.
` Q. And if you don't ask me to clarify
`anything, I'm going to assume that you
`understood my question. Okay?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. I'm handing you a document
`that's been marked Exhibit 1031, and do you
`recognize this document?
` A. Yes, it is my Reply Declaration.
` Q. And in the IPR proceedings for the
`'550 relating to the '031 patent; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you submitted substantively the
`same declaration in connection with the '549 IPR
`relating to the '023 patent, correct?
` A. Substantively the same, yes.
` Q. Yes. And to the extent that you
`express opinions today, is it fair to say that
`they will apply to both the '023 patent and the
`'031 patent?
` A. That would depend on really on if
`there is any difference in the substance, but we
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`can discuss that. Pretty much it would be true,
`whatever you are saying pretty much would be
`true, but as you know from the previous
`depositions, I don't like to include everything
`because there is always something that might be
`different.
` Q. Okay. Well, if there's something that
`you think is different between the two patents,
`the '031 and the '023, as we go through, will
`you let me know? Because, otherwise, I'm going
`to assume that your opinions apply to both
`cases. Okay?
` A. Fair enough.
` Q. All right. Now, you also testified on
`behalf of the petitioner Noven at a trial in the
`District Court for the District of Delaware in
`December of 2014 relating to the patents at
`issue in these two IPR proceedings, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And was the testimony that you gave at
`those proceedings the truth?
` A. Of course.
` Q. And do you stand by that testimony in
`these IPR proceedings as well?
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` A. I didn't quite -- could you repeat
`that?
` Q. Do you stand by that testimony in
`the --
` A. That I gave the court? Of course.
` Q. Yes. And it applies in these IPR
`proceedings as well?
` MR. COULSON: Same objection.
` A. I don't understand what that means.
` Q. Well --
` A. Does it apply? If that was -- I say
`that that was true and I believe it's true, it
`applies to anything at any time.
` Q. Perfect. I just wanted to make sure
`that we were on the same page about that.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Now, I want to discuss certain
`opinions that you have expressed in this Reply
`Declaration, and I would like to start with
`paragraph 9. And if you just want to read that
`to yourself so you know what we're going to talk
`about.
` A. Okay.
`
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` (Document review.)
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Just so that we're all on the
`same page, I'm particularly interested in the
`sentence that says, "Because a POSA would have
`understood that rivastigmine was likely to
`undergo oxidative degradation, the POSA would
`have been motivated to take steps to reduce or
`eliminate the oxidative degradation."
` Okay; that's the sentence?
` A. Okay.
` Q. And I just want to confirm it's your
`opinion that drug degradation is a -- a bad
`thing in a formulation because it leads to loss
`of the active pharmaceutical ingredient; is that
`a fair statement?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` A. Oxidation of the drug is very
`important for more than one reason. You lose
`the potency of the drug because it degrades, and
`also, the degradants could be toxic materials,
`so that's a secondary issue. So you want to
`eliminate degradation as much as you possibly
`can.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` Q. And so the less drug that there is in
`the formulation potentially the less potent the
`dosage form is; is that correct?
` A. Again, let me make sure that I
`understand. I'll answer it and you tell me if I
`answered it right.
` Certainly if you have an X amount of
`drug and that degrades, let's say, by 10
`percent, that is very bad because the potency of
`the drug has been reduced. And of course, the
`10 percent of the degradants, you don't know
`necessarily what they are, and you have to find
`out what they are; and they may be toxic, which
`is another reason why you don't want that to
`happen.
` Q. And then perhaps if you turn to
`paragraph 38 of your report.
` Are you with me, Dr. Kydonieus?
` A. Yes, 38. Can I read it for a second?
` Q. Absolutely. Take your time.
` (Document review.)
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So, as I understand it, it's
`your opinion that the compounds of the present
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`invention in Rosin are the small set of claimed
`compounds; is that correct?
` A. It's mine as well as Rosin's, because
`if you look at the abstract, it very clearly and
`succinctly indicates what the invention is.
` Q. Okay. And there are three claimed
`compounds, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And perhaps I'll give you a copy of it
`so that we're not doing this from memory, and
`you can look at whatever you like. I'm handing
`you a document that's been marked as Exhibit
`1008, and is that a copy of the U.S. Patent
`that's referred to as Rosin in your Reply
`Declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And that was the -- the
`reference that we were just discussing, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. And so just so we're back on
`the same page, you, I think, agreed with me that
`there are three claimed compounds; is that
`correct?
` A. I believe so, yes.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` Q. Okay. And so it's your opinion that
`the three claimed compounds are the compounds of
`the present invention in Rosin?
` A. As I mentioned before, I believe that
`Rosin says the same thing if you read the
`abstract, for example, on several other
`occasions within the patent. For example --
`well, the abstract is very clear and succinct
`what the invention is, but if you look at on
`column 4, where we were talking before, they're
`saying basically that the compounds of that
`formula with all the R-1 through R-5, several of
`them were known and several of them were
`insecticides. So that formula cannot be the
`compounds of the invention because certainly
`insecticides are not part of the invention. You
`don't give human beings insecticides.
` But I would go back, honestly, to the
`abstract and read the abstract because that
`tells us what the invention is in the words of
`Rosin herself.
` Q. Okay. And you never write that you
`relied on the abstract in your Reply
`Declaration, did you?
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` A. Well, in my Reply Declaration?
` Q. In either of your declarations, do you
`recall previously having relied on the abstract?
`This is the first time I've heard mention of the
`abstract.
` A. Well, I relied on the complete
`document.
` Q. But there's not a specific citation to
`the abstract in your report, is there?
` A. I don't remember. I don't think so.
`But basically, I relied on this document, and
`this document basically -- the abstract and
`several other places, if you read the document
`carefully, it indicates what the present
`invention is.
` Q. Okay. But at least when you were
`forming the opinions and putting in this
`document what it is you relied on to reach those
`opinions, you didn't mention the abstract,
`right?
` A. I did not mention the abstract, yes.
` Q. Perhaps you can turn to paragraph 41,
`Dr. Kydonieus.
` Let me know when you've read that.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` A. Ah, okay.
` (Document review.)
` A. Yes, I read it.
` Q. And just for the record, there you
`state that "'preferred antioxidants for use with
`the compounds of the present invention include
`sodium metabisulfite and ascorbic acid'
`reinforces my opinion that Rosin's language is
`directed towards this small set of RA-series
`compounds." You see you say that?
` A. You read that correctly, yes.
` Q. Okay. Now, when you say "this small
`set of RA-series compounds," you're again
`referring to the three claimed RA compounds in
`Rosin?
` A. I certainly refer to those three
`compounds for sure because those are the
`compounds that are claimed. If she had
`performed the -- Rosin, she documents a few
`more. I don't remember the number -- seven RA
`compounds. If she tested those with the other
`compounds as well, I don't know that answer.
`Probably she did, but the antioxidants,
`preferred antioxidants include, in my opinion,
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`the three compounds that are claimed.
` Q. Not the preferred antioxidants, the
`compound of the present invention. I think you
`misspoke. That's what I'm just clearing up.
` A. Oh, I'm sorry.
` Q. You said, "The preferred antioxidants
`include, in my opinion, the three compounds that
`are claimed"?
` A. No, basically, what I wanted to say is
`the preferred antioxidants that Rosin talks
`about pertain to the three compounds that are
`claimed, which includes RA-7.
` Q. Okay. And that's because Rosin says
`that the preferred antioxidants are for use with
`the compounds of the present invention; is that
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, can we look at the claims, the
`claims of Rosin, which are in column 14.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And claim 3 is to RA-7; is that
`correct?
` A. Is to RA -- I believe so, yes, to
`RA-7.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` Q. And claim 1, is that to RA-12?
` A. I believe there were three compounds.
`I think it's 7 -- 5, 7, but we can read that.
` Q. If you look at Table 1, perhaps if you
`can compare claim 1 with Table 1.
` A. Table 1.
` Q. And let me know -- which is in column
`10.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And confirm that claim 1 is RA-12?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Outside the scope of the declaration.
` A. Excuse me. Table 1? Yes, I'm looking
`at Table 1, and I don't know what you asked.
` Q. And the question is can you confirm
`that claim 1 of Rosin relates to the compound
`RA-12?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Outside the scope of the declaration.
` A. I cannot answer that question right
`now. My opinion was that the compounds were
`RA-5, RA-7 and RA-15, but maybe I'm wrong.
` Q. Why can't you answer that question
`right now?
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` A. Well, because the -- the Table 1,
`you're talking about RA-12, and I have to look,
`if it talks about --
` You're talking about claim 1?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Okay. Okay. Probably it is, yes, but
`I --
` Q. Take your time. Take as much time as
`you need. We've got plenty of time.
` A. I honestly don't think it makes that
`much difference.
` MR. COULSON: Objection to the form.
` Outside the scope.
` A. The one I am concerned, as a POSA
`would be the claim 3, which is RA-7, or racemic
`rivastigmine.
` Q. Well, I would like to confirm that
`claim 1 relates to RA-12, and so take your time,
`read whatever you need --
` A. Okay. Let me read it carefully.
` Q. -- to answer that question.
` MR. COULSON: Object to the form, and
` it's outside the scope of the declaration.
` A. As you know, I give probabilities
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`because for me to give you an exact guarantee
`that this is what it is, I would have to do a
`little bit more work. But I would say that 90
`percent certain, it is. I'm looking at -- it is
`RA-12.
` Q. And what additional work do you think
`you would need to do in order to be able to
`answer the question?
` A. Well, I would have to look at the
`structure, the complete structures, and look at
`where the R-1 is and the R-2 and compare it to
`the other molecules -- I mean, to the other
`parts of the structure and look at the R -- the
`structure that we have, what is called I, but --
` Q. Well, you can do that, Dr. Kydonieus.
` MR. COULSON: Objection to the
` statement.
` A. Listen, I have to spend some time
`doing it --
` MR. COULSON: Counsel is testifying.
` A. -- and honestly, I would prefer that
`some organic chemist did it rather than a
`chemical engineer, which I am. But I believe
`that that's the compound, yes. But I see, with
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`the time that we have here, I believe that
`that's the compound.
` Q. You don't have any reason to dispute
`that claim 1 --
` A. I don't have any reason to dispute it.
` Q. Let me finish my question.
` A. I'm sorry.
` Q. Just so we get a clean record.
` A. Sure.
` MR. COULSON: And please pause after
` you hear the question, so I can object.
` THE WITNESS: Sure.
`BY MS. JACOBSEN:
` Q. Okay. And now claim 2, can you
`compare claim 2 in column 14 with Table 1 in
`column 10 and whatever else in Rosin that you
`need to look at and confirm to me that claim 2
`relates to RA-14?
` MR. COULSON: I just -- I believe that
` the record doesn't reflect that the witness
` was still answering the last question and we
` moved on, so I don't believe we have a clean
` record. I think the witness was still
` testifying.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` Q. Claim 2, Dr. Kydonieus. Let me ask my
`question again so that you know what we're
`discussing now.
` So we're on claim 2 of Rosin in column
`14, and I want you to look at Table 1 or the
`figure in column 4, whatever you need to look
`at, and confirm for me that claim 2 claims
`RA-14.
` MR. COULSON: Object to form. Outside
` the scope of either declaration.
` A. Again, it's my belief that it is, but
`the definitive decision should be made by an
`organic chemist.
` Q. You're not qualified to opine on that?
` A. Not --
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` A. Not qualified as I would like to have
`been.
` Q. Now, you have no reason to dispute
`that claim 2 relates to RA-14?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Outside the scope.
` A. Yes, as I mentioned, I have no reason
`to dispute it, and as a POSA, I would not pay
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`too much attention to it.
` Q. And why wouldn't you pay too much
`attention to it?
` A. Because what I'm interested in as a
`POSA is developing a transdermal patch for
`rivastigmine, and those two products don't
`pertain to rivastigmine.
` Q. Now, claim 4 of the Rosin patent
`relates to a method of treating a subject
`suffering from senile dementia, Alzheimer's
`disease, and various other diseases; is that
`right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And can you confirm that the three
`compounds in claim 4 are the same three
`compounds that are claimed in claims 1, 2 and 3?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form and
` outside the scope of the declaration.
` A. Yes, the names certainly rhyme with
`the names of the claims of 1, 2 and 3.
` Q. When you say they rhyme, do you mean
`they match?
` A. They match.
` Q. And you agree with me that RA-6 is not
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`claimed in Rosin?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Outside the scope of the Reply Declaration.
` A. RA-6? Let me just look at RA-6.
` As I mentioned before, to the best of
`my knowledge as a chemical engineer, not as an
`organic chemist, what I said before on those
`compounds is what I believe is true, but again,
`with the caveat that I'm a chemical engineer and
`not an organic chemist.
` Q. And so the answer is that you don't
`think that RA-6 is claimed in Rosin; is that
`right?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Asked and answered.
` A. I don't think it is.
` Q. And will you also confirm for me that
`you don't think RA-15 is claimed in Rosin?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form and
` outside the scope of the declaration. Asked
` and answered.
` A. Again, with my -- the same caveat, as
`I said I worked -- that I mentioned before, I
`don't see RA-15 in there.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` Q. When you say "in there," you mean the
`claims of the Rosin patent?
` A. The claims 1, 2 or 3 or 4.
` Q. Now, can we go back to your
`declaration, which is Exhibit 1031, and I just
`want to confirm that it's your opinion --
` A. What -- what --
` Q. Sorry. Paragraph 43.
` A. Paragraph 43.
` Q. Take your time, read it, and let me
`know when you've done that and I'll ask my
`question.
` (Document review.)
` A. Yes, I read it.
` Q. So I just want to confirm it's your
`opinion that because the inventors of Rosin
`talked about preferred antioxidants for use with
`the compounds of the present invention, they had
`learned through hands-on experience which
`antioxidants worked best with the claimed
`compounds; is that correct?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Misrepresents the paragraph.
` A. The Rosin indicates that they had --
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`they thought -- they talked about preferred
`antioxidants being sodium metabisulfite and
`ascorbic acid, and it's my belief that they had
`tested all the materials with the RA-7
`compound -- I mean the RA compounds, excuse me,
`and they had shown that those two antioxidants
`were preferred versus perhaps others that they
`had tested.
` Q. And that's because they say that they
`are the preferred antioxidants for use with the
`compounds of the present invention, correct?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'll look at a different document now.
` This is a document that we have
`previously marked as Exhibit 2058.
` MS. JACOBSEN: We have marked this for
` the '550 IPR, and we'll provide you with a
` copy marked up for the '549.
` MR. COULSON: Okay. So this document
` you just handed me is what you're using with
` the witness?
` MS. JACOBSEN: Yes.
` MR. COULSON: Okay.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` MS. JACOBSEN: And you see it's been
` stamped in the bottom corner already.
` MR. COULSON: Okay. Thanks.
` MS. JACOBSEN: 2058.
`BY MS. JACOBSEN:
` Q. So, Dr. Kydonieus, I have handed you
`an exhibit that's been marked as 2058. Have you
`seen this document before?
` A. If I saw it? Probably I saw it, but I
`don't think I have paid much attention to it.
` Q. You think this is something you might
`have seen?
` A. I don't know.
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` A. I don't know.
` Q. Okay. Well, if you can take Exhibit
`1008, which is the Rosin patent, in one hand.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And keep 2058 in the other.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And I'm going to tell you that
`this is a patent application or part of the file
`history for a patent application.
` A. Okay.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` Q. And I just want to compare the serial
`number for this application with the Rosin
`patent. Okay?
` So if you take Rosin and you look at
`the paragraph in square brackets that says 63,
`there's a heading "Related U.S. Application
`Data." Are you with me?
` MR. COULSON: Objection.
` A. Okay.
` MR. COULSON: No foundation.
` A. Yes, I see that.
` Q. And you see there's a statement that
`says, "Continuation of Serial No. 185,451, April
`25, 1988, abandoned, which is a continuation of
`Serial No. 835,466, March 3, 1986, abandoned."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you see that number Serial No.
`835,466?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Q. The second serial number?
` A. 835,466, yes.
` Q. And can you confirm that that's the
`serial number in the top left-hand corner, or
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`the second box down?
` A. I see that number on the left-hand
`corner.
` MR. COULSON: Objection. No
` foundation.
` A. I don't honestly know what those
`things are and I don't work with documents of
`this sort very much, but yes, the number is the
`same as that number.
` (Discussion off the record.)
` Q. You filed a number of patent
`applications, correct, Dr. Kydonieus?
` A. Many. Many.
` MR. COULSON: Objection. Vague -- I
` mean form.
` Q. And you're telling me that you don't
`recognize this type of document?
` MR. COULSON: Objection. Asked and
` answered. Form.
` A. Not such a document. I know that
`there are patent wrappers or something, but I
`don't really recognize this thing.
` Q. All right. Well, let's have a look at
`the filing date on Exhibit 2058, and can you
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
`confirm for me that the filing date that's next
`to the serial number we just looked at is the
`same -- is March 3, 1986?
` If you look at 2058 first.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And you see there's a box and it says
`"Filing Date, 03/03/86"?
` A. Yes.
` MR. COULSON: Objection. Foundation.
` Q. And that's the same filing date for
`Serial No. 835,466 on the front of Rosin,
`correct?
` MR. COULSON: Objection. Foundation.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then you can see underneath
`there's "Applicant," and there's three
`applicants identified, they are Rosin, Chorev
`and Tashma; do you see that?
` A. On the --
` Q. Just underneath where we were looking,
`Dr. Kydonieus.
` A. Excuse me?
` Q. Just underneath where we were looking.
` A. It's here. Okay.
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` A. Okay. Okay. Rosin. Chorev. Tashma.
`Yes.
` Q. And they are the same people that are
`listed as inventors on the Rosin patent,
`correct?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` Foundation.
` A. Certainly it looks like it.
` Q. Okay. And can you turn to -- can you
`turn to page 12 of 372 in the document that I
`just gave you that is Exhibit 2058.
` A. Is that page 12 or page 8 on the
`document itself? Is that --
` MR. COULSON: Objection. It's outside
` the scope and foundation.
` Q. It's 8 at the top.
` A. 8 at the top and 12 at that bottom.
` Q. 12 at the bottom, yes. That's why I
`thought my notes were wrong. I was a little
`confused.
` And then if you look underneath where
`the exhibit is marked, it's page 12 of 372,
`correct?
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` AGIS KYDONIEUS, PH.D.
` A. Correct. Yes.
` Q. All right. So we're on the same page.
` A. Right.
` Q. And you see there there's a General
`Formula I, do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that defines a class of compounds
`by that General Formula I wherein R-1, R-2, R-3,
`R-4 and R-5 can be any of the groups that are
`listed below the structure; is that correct?
` MR. COULSON: Objection. Foundation.
` A. Yes, that's what it says.
` Q. And you agree that this would be a
`very large class of compounds?
` MR. COULSON: Objection. Foundation
` and form.
` I don't want to impede the
` investigation, but I just -- I could say it
` after every one if you want, but my
` objection is that there is no foundation for
` using this document with this witness.
` MS. JACOBSEN: Okay. You can have a
` standing objection to that if you want.
` MR. COULSON: Well, I just don't --
`
`TSG Reporti
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