In The Matter Of:
`
`MICROSOFT CORPORATION
`v.
` ENFISH, LLC
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - Vol. 1
`May 14, 2014
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 1 of 257
`
`
`
`MICROSOFT CORPORATION
`v.
` ENFISH, LLC
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - Vol. 1
`May 14, 2014
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 1 of 257
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`MICROSOFT CORPORATION; )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. ) Case No.
` ) IPR2013-00559
`ENFISH, LLC; ) through 00563
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_______________________________)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING
`
` San Diego, California
`
` Wednesday, May 14, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`Lynda L. Fenn, CSR, RPR
`CSR No. 12566
`
`(SF-002193)
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 2 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 2
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`MICROSOFT CORPORATION; )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. ) Case No.
` ) IPR2013-00559
`ENFISH, LLC; ) through 00563
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_______________________________)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of ANTONY LLOYD
`
` HOSKING, taken on behalf of Defendants, at 4401
`
` Eastgate Mall, San Diego, California, at 9:07
`
` a.m. and ending at 4:48 p.m., Wednesday, May
`
` 14, 2014, reported by Lynda L. Fenn,
`
` CSR No. 12566, Certified Shorthand Reporter
`
` within and for the State of California,
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` pursuant to notice.
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 3 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 3
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`For the Plaintiff:
`
` For Microsoft Corporation:
`
` PERKINS COIE LLP
` BY: AMY E. SIMPSON, ESQ.
` 11988 El Camino Real, Suite 200
` San Diego, California 92130-3334
` (858) 720-5702
` asimpson@perkinscoie.com
`
` PERKINS COIE LLP
` BY: THEODORE H. WIMSATT, ESQ.
` 2901 North Central Avenue, Suite 2000
` Phoenix, Arizona 85012-2788
` (602) 351-8453
` twimsatt@perkinscoie.com
`
`For the Defendants:
`
` COOLEY LLP
` BY: MATTHEW J. LEARY, ESQ.
` 380 Interlocken Crescent, Suite 900
` Broomfield, Connecticut 80021-8023
` (720) 566-4021
` mleary@cooley.com
`
` COOLEY LLP
` BY: FRANK PIETRANTONIO, ESQ.
` 11951 Freedom Drive
` Reston, Virginia 20190-5656
` (703) 456-8567
` fpietrantonio@cooley.com
`
`Also Present:
`
` Laura Vorhees, Videographer
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 4 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 4
`
` I N D E X
`
` EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
`
` MR. LEARY 7, 211
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` MR. WIMSATT 204
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` E X H I B I T S
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
` Exhibit 1 A two-page, double-sided 8
` document entitled Patent Owner
` Enfish, LLC's Notice of
` Deposition of Antony Hosking
` Ph.D. on May 14, 2014, Inter
` Partes Review No. IPR2013-00559
`
` Exhibit 2 A two-page, double-sided 8
` document entitled Patent Owner
` Enfish, LLC's Notice of
` Deposition of Antony Hosking
` Ph.D. on May 14, 2014, Inter
` Partes Review No. IPR2013-00560
`
` Exhibit 3 A two-page, double-sided 8
` document entitled Patent Owner
` Enfish, LLC's Notice of
` Deposition of Antony Hosking
` Ph.D. on May 14, 2014, Inter
` Partes Review No. IPR2013-00561
`
` Exhibit 4 A two-page, double-sided 8
` document entitled Patent Owner
` Enfish, LLC's Notice of
` Deposition of Antony Hosking
` Ph.D. on May 14, 2014, Inter
` Partes Review No. IPR2013-00562
`
` Exhibit 5 A two-page, double-sided 8
` document entitled Patent Owner
` Enfish, LLC's Notice of
` Deposition of Antony Hosking
` Ph.D. on May 14, 2014, Inter
` Partes Review No. IPR2013-00563
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 5 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 5
`
` E X H I B I T S (Continued)
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
` Exhibit 6 A 17-page, double-sided 64
` document entitled Decision on
` Institution of Inter Partes
` Review
`
` Exhibit 7 A 33-page, double-sided 92
` document entitled Petition for
` Inter Partes Review of U.S.
` Patent No. 6,151,604
`
` Exhibit 8 A one-page, double-sided 115
` document entitled Employee
` Table
`
` Exhibit 9 A one-page line paper showing 151
` deponent's shorthand signature
` and longhand signature samples
`
` Exhibit 10 A one-page, double-sided 155
` document entitled 484
` Programmer's Guide, Defining a
` Database
`
` INFORMATION REQUESTED
`
` (None)
`
` INSTRUCTION NOT TO ANSWER
`
` (None)
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 6 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 6
`
` San Diego, California
`
` Wednesday, May 14, 2014
`
` 9:07 a.m. - 4:48 p.m.
`
`09:07:38
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are on
`
`the record. Here begins Volume One, Videotape No. 1 in
`
`the deposition of Dr. Antony Hosking in the matter of
`
`Microsoft Corporation, petitioner, versus Enfish, LLC,
`
`09:07:50
`
`patent owner, before -- in the United States Patent and
`
`Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`
`Board. The case number is 1 -- II -- excuse me, IPR
`
`2013, dash, 00559 through 0563.
`
` Today's date is May 14th, 2014. The time on
`
`09:08:16
`
`the video monitor is 9:07 a.m.
`
` The video operator today is Laura Vorhees,
`
`contracted by Merrill Legal Solutions of Woodland Hills,
`
`California. This video deposition is taking place at
`
`Cooley 4401 Eastgate Mall, San Diego, California 92121.
`
`09:08:33
`
` Counsel, please voice identify yourselves and
`
`state whom you represent.
`
` MR. LEARY: This is Matthew Leary of Cooley
`
`LLP on behalf of patent owner, Enfish, LLC.
`
` MR. PIETRANTONIO: Frank Pietrantonio of
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`09:08:54
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`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 7 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 7
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`Cooley also here on behalf of Enfish.
`
` MR. LEARY: And also on the phone we have with
`
`us Jennifer Volk-Fortier also of Cooley LLP and also on
`
`behalf of Enfish.
`
` MS. SIMPSON: I'm Amy Simpson with Perkins
`
`09:09:09
`
`Coie representing Microsoft Corporation.
`
` MR. WIMSATT: Theodore Wimsatt also of Perkins
`
`Coie also representing Microsoft.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter today is
`
`Lynda Fenn of Merrill.
`
`09:09:21
`
` Would the reporter please swear in the
`
`witness.
`
` ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING,
`
`produced as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiff, and
`
`having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
`
`as follows:
`
` THE COURT REPORTER: Go ahead.
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Good morning, Dr. Hosking.
`
` A Good morning.
`
` Q Could you put your full name on the record and
`
`09:09:36
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 8 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 8
`
`spell it, please?
`
` A Full name Antony, A-n-t-o-n-y, middle name
`
`Lloyd, L-l-o-y-d, last name Hosking, H-o-s-k-i-n-g.
`
` Q The court reporter has marked as Hosking
`
`exhibits -- depo exhibits one through five the notices
`
`09:09:57
`
`of deposition of Antony Hosking for the IPR numbers IPR
`
`2013, dash, 00559 through 563.
`
` (Defendant's Exhibit 1 - 5 were marked for
`
`identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter and
`
`are attached hereto.)
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
`09:10:16
`
` Q I'm handing you those five exhibits.
`
` Have you seen those before?
`
` A This is the first time I've seen these.
`
` Q Do you understand that you are here regarding
`
`09:10:28
`
`the IPRs that I just mentioned, IPR 2013-559 through
`
`563?
`
` A I believe so, yes.
`
` Q All right. If you don't mind I'll take those
`
`back just to keep them out of your way.
`
`09:10:46
`
` Dr. Hosking, I'm about to hand you what has
`
`been marked of Microsoft Corporation's Exhibit 1022
`
`entitled "Corrected Declaration of Antony Hosking,
`
`Ph.D., Concerning Invalidity of the United States Patent
`
`number 6," comma, "152," comma, "604."
`
`09:11:20
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`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 9 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 9
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` Is this one of the declarations that you wrote
`
`regarding this case?
`
` A Yes, it appears to be.
`
` Q Now, in addition to this corrected declaration
`
`for the '604 Patent you also wrote an earlier
`
`09:11:49
`
`declaration for the '604 Patent; correct?
`
` A Yes, I did.
`
` Q And as I understand it the only difference
`
`between that earlier declaration and this corrected
`
`declaration was the inclusion in the corrected
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`09:12:01
`
`declaration of a sworn oath by you saying that the
`
`declaration was correct; is that right?
`
` A Yes.
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
`09:12:16
`
` Q In addition to this declaration regarding the
`
`'604 Patent you also authored a declaration in regard to
`
`the '775 Patent; correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And for the '775 declaration you also authored
`
`09:12:30
`
`both an original and a corrected declaration; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. And the corrected declaration has been
`
`identified and is marked as Microsoft Corporation's
`
`09:12:51
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 10 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 10
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`Exhibit 1219. It's entitled "Corrected Declaration of
`
`Antony Hosking, Ph.D., Concerning Invalidity of United
`
`States Patent No. 6,163,775." I'm handing you a copy of
`
`that declaration.
`
` Is that the declaration you authored regarding
`
`09:13:11
`
`the '775 Patent?
`
` A Yes, it appears to be.
`
` Q And as in the '604 Patent declaration do you
`
`understand that the only difference between your
`
`corrected '775 declaration and the original declaration
`
`09:13:38
`
`is the inclusion of a sworn oath that the declaration is
`
`true and correct on the last page?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Are you aware of any errors in your corrected
`
`'604 declaration?
`
`09:14:05
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: The patent -- the declaration
`
`represents my opinions.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Do the declarations represent your entire
`
`09:14:19
`
`opinions on the '604 and the '775 patents?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: If I was asked to give opinions
`
`they were with respect to specific questions regarding
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`those patents, so I may have further opinions to offer
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`09:14:31
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 11 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 11
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`if I was asked such questions.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q With respect to the opinions that you
`
`understood you were asked to render, do the corrected
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`'604 and '775 declarations represent your complete
`
`09:14:44
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`opinion?
`
` A Yes, I believe so.
`
` Q Back to my first question are you aware of any
`
`errors in the corrected '604 declaration?
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` MS. SIMPSON: Same okay.
`
`09:15:02
`
` THE WITNESS: With respect to the opinions I
`
`gave I believe they represent my opinions accurately.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q So you're not aware of any errors in the '604
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`declaration?
`
` A No.
`
`09:15:10
`
` Q Are you aware of any errors in the '775
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`declaration?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I give the same answer with
`
`09:15:16
`
`respect to that question.
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`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q And the answer would be?
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` A I'm not aware of any errors excepting these
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`are the opinions that I've given.
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`09:15:24
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 12 of 257
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`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
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`Page 12
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` Q All right. For the remainder of this
`
`deposition I am going to refer to the Enfish patents as
`
`a combination of the both of 6,151,604 Patent and also
`
`the Patent No. 6,163,775 unless I say differently.
`
` Is that okay?
`
`09:15:50
`
` A That's fine with me. If you want to
`
`abbreviate it to '775 and '604 that would be fine too.
`
` Q I'll try to do that for all our sakes.
`
` When you were preparing your two declarations
`
`had you read Microsoft's petitions in this case?
`
`09:16:07
`
` A I had read the petitions, indeed.
`
` Q Also, in preparing your declarations had you
`
`read the Patent and Trademark Appeal Boards decisions to
`
`institute the interparty's review to the 559 to 563
`
`IPRs?
`
`09:16:38
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I read those decisions.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q In forming your opinions that are set forth in
`
`your declaration have you read any materials from the
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`09:16:47
`
`district court case between Enfish and Microsoft?
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` A I have seen some materials from the district
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`court case.
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` Q And what materials are those?
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` A I would have to -- I couldn't possibly say
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`09:17:00
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 13 of 257
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`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
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`Page 13
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`exactly what those materials were.
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` Q Have you read Enfish's infringement
`
`contentions in the district court case?
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` A Yes, I believe so.
`
` Q Have you read the court's Markman ruling in
`
`09:17:19
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`the district court case?
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` A I'm not sure that I have. I may have done.
`
` Q Do you understand that the court's Markman
`
`ruling sets forth the court's constructions for various
`
`terms in the two patents?
`
`09:17:33
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` A I'm aware of that fact, yes.
`
` Q So but you're not certain whether you read the
`
`court's Markman order?
`
` A I may have done so. I do not recall.
`
` Q Okay. In preparing your declarations did you
`
`09:17:44
`
`review any source code?
`
` A I have reviewed some source code, yes.
`
` Q What source code is that?
`
` A Some early product source code was small talk
`
`source code.
`
`09:18:02
`
` Q When you say, "early product," are you
`
`referring to a product built by Enfish?
`
` A I believe it's a product that was built by
`
`Enfish, yes.
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` Q Have you reviewed any other Enfish code?
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`09:18:11
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 14 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 14
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` A No, I have not.
`
` Q Where did you understand that the small talk
`
`Enfish code that you reviewed to have come from?
`
` A I believe it was filed with the patent -- it
`
`was produced with the patents.
`
`09:18:33
`
` Q Okay. And that would be the '604 and '775
`
`Patent?
`
` A I'm not sure which of the two.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` A Perhaps both.
`
`09:18:41
`
` Q What other source code did you review prior to
`
`writing your declarations?
`
` A That's the only source code I've reviewed.
`
` Q So you haven't reviewed any Microsoft source
`
`code?
`
`09:18:53
`
` A No, I have not.
`
` Q At any point did you want to review any
`
`Microsoft source code?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
`
`09:19:06
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Other than the small talk Enfish source code
`
`did you review any other source code?
`
` A No, I did not.
`
` Q In addition to the materials that you just
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 15 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 15
`
`identified and in addition to the documents that you
`
`included as part of your declarations, what other
`
`material did you review in forming your opinions?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I believe I've given all of the
`
`09:19:50
`
`documents that I've reviewed in forming those opinions
`
`by reference into the declaration.
`
` MR. LEARY: Okay.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q So as far as you know other than the documents
`
`09:19:58
`
`that are in the declaration you didn't review any other
`
`documents --
`
` A Correct.
`
` Q -- in forming your opinion?
`
` A Correct.
`
`09:20:07
`
` Q Are you familiar with a database known as DB2?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And what is that?
`
` A It's a database product. I believe it's an
`
`IBM product, but I would have to refresh my memory.
`
`09:20:25
`
` Q You're familiar with a database product from
`
`Oracle?
`
` A Yes, I am.
`
` Q How about from Sybase?
`
` A Yes.
`
`09:20:38
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 16 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 16
`
` Q Are you familiar with any databases from a
`
`company known as Ingres?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And that's I-n-g-r-e-s; correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
`09:20:49
`
` Q Okay. How are you familiar with the DB2
`
`database?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm aware of it as a product in
`
`the marketplace.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
`09:21:05
`
` Q Have you worked with DB2 before?
`
` A I don't recall.
`
` Q Have you worked with Oracle before?
`
` A Yes.
`
`09:21:14
`
` Q Of the databases I just mentioned what other
`
`databases in addition to Oracle have you worked with?
`
` A I believe I've worked with Ingres. Postgres
`
`is a research database that was used that was an
`
`extension of Ingres. I've worked with Research Database
`
`09:21:41
`
`Systems. I have to refresh my memory on which ones they
`
`were, but there was certainly quite a number of them.
`
` Q Between Oracle and Ingres, what are you more
`
`familiar with?
`
` A Probably the Oracle.
`
`09:22:07
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 17 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 17
`
` Q Okay. And what's the extent of your
`
`experience with Oracle?
`
` A I have used it for project work with students.
`
`I've used it in just -- I've never used it in a serious
`
`commercial sense.
`
`09:22:25
`
` Q Are you familiar with the term "database
`
`administrator" as it applies to an Oracle database?
`
` A Yes, I understand -- I believe I'm familiar
`
`with the term, yes.
`
` Q That's sometimes referred to as a DBA;
`
`09:22:39
`
`correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Have you had any experience as a DBA?
`
` A No, I've not.
`
` Q Okay. Within Oracle are you familiar with the
`
`09:22:46
`
`term "DDL," as in database definition language?
`
` A Yes, I am.
`
` Q What is DDL?
`
` A It's a language for describing the definition
`
`of your database.
`
`09:23:14
`
` Q Is that a language that a DBA in Oracle would
`
`typically use?
`
` A Yes, it is.
`
` Q Are you familiar with a term "DML," data
`
`manipulation language?
`
`09:23:37
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 18 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 18
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q How, if at all, does the DDL language and the
`
`DML language differ with respect to their purpose?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I would have to refresh my
`
`09:23:50
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`memory with respect to documentation to give a precise
`
`answer to that question.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q What's your general understanding of any
`
`differences between DDL and DML?
`
`09:24:01
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: DML is the language by which the
`
`data can be manipulated and understood.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q And how does that differ from DDL?
`
`09:24:13
`
` A The definition language is to describe the
`
`structure and form of the data.
`
` Q So, DDL describes structure and -- at a high
`
`level. DML is used to manipulate data within that
`
`structure; is that correct?
`
`09:24:49
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; mischaracterizes.
`
` THE WITNESS: I would have to refresh my
`
`memory, but the intention is to be able to manipulate
`
`the data, yes.
`
` MR. LEARY: Okay.
`
`09:25:01
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 19 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 19
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q And when you say, "the intention is to
`
`manipulate the data," you mean the DML -- the intention
`
`of DML, sorry, is to manipulate data; correct?
`
` A I would have to refresh my memory with respect
`
`09:25:11
`
`to the specific details of DDL versus DML.
`
` Q But is my statement correct at least with
`
`respect to your general understanding of DML?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I can't answer that question
`
`09:25:20
`
`without refreshing my memory with respect to the precise
`
`definitions of those terms.
`
` MR. LEARY: Okay.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Do you understand that a command known as
`
`09:25:40
`
`create table in Oracle is an example of DDL language?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Create table is actually an
`
`example of a command within the SQL programming language
`
`for database systems.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
`09:26:01
`
` Q Would you consider create table to be a DDL
`
`command?
`
` A Creating a table I wouldn't consider to be a
`
`DDL command, but it's certainly creating a definition of
`
`09:26:08
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 20 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 20
`
`a table in a database.
`
` Q Okay. What -- strike that.
`
` How have you formed your familiarity with the
`
`DB2 database?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
`09:26:43
`
` THE WITNESS: I believe -- and I'm stretching
`
`here -- I used it in a student course many, many years
`
`ago. I can't recall exactly when that was.
`
` MR. LEARY: Okay.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
`09:27:10
`
` Q Are you familiar with the term "secondary
`
`considerations" with respect to patent law?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe I'm familiar
`
`with the term, no.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Have you ever heard of secondary
`
`considerations of nonobviousness?
`
`09:27:21
`
` A It's a legal term. I'm not a lawyer. I don't
`
`know the precise definitions of the term.
`
`09:27:31
`
` Q Have you heard of that term before?
`
` A I may have heard of the term.
`
` Q Okay. In forming the opinions in your
`
`declarations were you aware that Enfish's search
`
`products had received industry awards?
`
`09:27:51
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 21 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 21
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I was not aware of that in the
`
`formation of my opinions, no.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Have you reviewed in this case any material
`
`09:28:07
`
`that you understood to be related to secondary
`
`considerations of nonobviousness?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Again, with respect to the term
`
`I don't have a precise understanding of the term so I'm
`
`09:28:23
`
`not sure that I can answer the question.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q So at least as far as you know, though, you
`
`didn't review any material that you were aware
`
`constituted secondary considerations?
`
`09:28:36
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: I would have to refresh my
`
`memory if I have such memory of the term before I could
`
`answer that question.
`
` MR. LEARY: Okay.
`
`09:28:47
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q If were you to find out that at some point
`
`Microsoft had evaluated Enfish's technology, would you
`
`want to review that evaluation and to inform the
`
`opinions in your declaration?
`
`09:29:11
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 22 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 22
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe it would be
`
`necessary to form my opinions. I'm not sure what the
`
`evaluation would be that you're talking about. Is it an
`
`opinion of some individual or is it a company-wide
`
`09:29:24
`
`opinion or is it a technical opinion? I don't know.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q So if you were to understand that Microsoft
`
`had performed a technical evaluation of Enfish's
`
`technology and the workings of Enfish's products that
`
`09:29:36
`
`are covered by the patents in your declaration, would
`
`you be interested in knowing what that technical
`
`evaluation was?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form and foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't know what interest I
`
`09:29:53
`
`would have in it other than if it had some technical
`
`information that informed me with respect to product,
`
`but I'm perfectly happy with understanding materials
`
`that I've independently obtained.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
`09:30:15
`
` Q If you found out that Microsoft had considered
`
`purchasing the patents that you wrote your declarations
`
`on, would that affect your opinion -- or strike that.
`
` Could that affect your opinion?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form and foundation.
`
`09:30:30
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 23 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 23
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. Again, my
`
`opinions are rendered on a technical foundation.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Were there any materials you wanted to review
`
`to help you write your declaration that you were not
`
`09:30:45
`
`able to review?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: No.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Could you turn please to paragraph 52 of
`
`09:31:09
`
`Microsoft Exhibit 1022? That's your '604 declaration.
`
` A Fifty-three, you said?
`
` Q Actually, why don't you turn to paragraph 53?
`
` A Is there a tissue in this room here?
`
` Q There's some napkins over there.
`
`09:31:45
`
` A That's fine. It's chilly in here. Thanks. I
`
`don't want to be dripping on -- okay. Sorry.
`
` MS. SIMPSON: What page did you say again,
`
`Matt?
`
` MR. LEARY: Paragraph 53.
`
`09:31:59
`
` THE WITNESS: Fifty-three.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Paragraph 53 reads, "As such, the broadest
`
`reasonable interpretation of," quote, "Object
`
`Identification Number," slash, "OID," end quote, "is,"
`
`09:32:12
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 24 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 24
`
`quote, "a value that identifies an object," end quote.
`
` Does paragraph 53 recite what you believe to
`
`be the broadest reasonable interpretation of OID?
`
` A That was an interpretation of OID that I did
`
`formulate.
`
`09:32:38
`
` Q Do you believe that to be the correct
`
`interpretation of OID?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I believe it to be a reasonable
`
`characterization of the definition of OID.
`
`09:32:46
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q Could you describe the process that you went
`
`through in determining this broadest reasonable
`
`interpretation for the term "OID"?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
`09:33:08
`
` THE WITNESS: So the term has a broad meaning
`
`in the art which those of ordinary skill would generally
`
`understand. The primary requirement is that an OID be
`
`able to be used to define or identify an object that is
`
`being referred to.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
`09:33:42
`
` Q What is necessary in an OID to, quote,
`
`identify an object?
`
` MS. SIMPSON: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: That if you and I or if one's
`
`09:33:58
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
`
`Enfish, LLC; IPR2014-00575
`Exhibit 2424
`Page 25 of 257
`
`
`
`ANTONY LLOYD HOSKING - 5/14/2014
`
`Page 25
`
`place and another place hold on OID that they can be
`
`compared for quality and, in fact, by -- in that sense
`
`define or identify the object that's being referred to.
`
`BY MR. LEARY:
`
` Q You mentioned a moment ago that -- something
`
`09:34:20
`
`along the lines of that one of ordinary skill would you
`
`understand what an OID was or that there was a common
`
`understanding of OID
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