Trials@uspto.gov
`571-272-7822
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`Paper No. 24
`Entered: June 18, 2015
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`RECORD OF ORAL HEARING
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`- - - - - -
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - -
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`U.S. ENDOSCOPY GROUP, INC.,
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`Petitioner,
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`v.
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`CDX DIAGNOSTICS, INC.,
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`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - -
`
`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
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`- - - - - - -
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`Technology Center 3700
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`- - - - - - -
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`Oral Hearing Held on Thursday, May 21, 2015
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`- - - - - - -
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`
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`Before: PHILLIP J. KAUFFMAN, BARRY L. GROSSMAN, and
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`SCOTT DANIELS (via video link), Administrative Patent Judges.
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`
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`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Thursday, May 21,
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`2015, at 1:00 p.m., in Hearing Room D, taken at the U.S. Patent and
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`Trademark Office, 600 Dulany Street, Alexandria, Virginia.
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`

`

`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
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`APPEARANCES:
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`TODD R. TUCKER, ESQ.
`MARK W. McDOUGALL, ESQ.
`Calfee, Halter & Griswold LLP
`The Calfee Building
`1405 East Sixth Street
`Cleveland, Ohio 44114-1607
`216-622-8200
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`CRAIG L. MOORE, ESQ.
`U.S. Endoscopy Representative
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`PETER L. BERGER, ESQ.
`TUVIA ROTBERG, ESQ.
`Levisohn Berger LLP
`11 Broadway
`Suite 615
`New York, New York 10004
`212-486-7272
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`DAVID K. BARR, ESQ.
`DAVID SOOFIAN, ESQ.
`JAMES S. BLANK, ESQ.
`Kaye Scholer LLP
`250 West 55th Street
`New York, New York 10019-9710
`212-836-8000
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
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`P R O C E E D I N G S
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`( 1:00 p . m. )
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: I a m J udg e Ka u ff ma n . This
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`is Judg e Gross ma n . Wi th us v ia vid eo fr o m Ne w Ha mp s hi r e is
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`Ju dge Dan iel s .
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`Ju dge Ka mh ol z wa s on t he c ase but h e h as b een
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`r ep la c ed b y J udge Da nie ls . It h as no thing to do with t he
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`me r i t s o f th e c as e o r an y mi s b eh avio r b y J udg e Ka mho lz . It i s
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`ju st an o rdin a r y swa p -out .
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`Ha s th e cou rt repo rt er had an o ppor tun it y to ge t a
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`bu sin ess ca rd f rom e a c h sid e? You h av e? Tha nk you .
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`I woul d lik e for th e Pat en t Owne r to i nt rodu ce
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`th e ms e lv es , pl e ase .
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`M R . B ER GER: I 'm P e t e r B e rge r , le ad cou nse l . I
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`a m f r o m t h e fi r m o f Leviso hn B e rge r . Tuvi a R otb erg i n th e
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`c or ne r , h e is als o f r o m o ur fi r m.
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`Da vid B ar r , Ka ye S c hol er , will b e do ing th e o r al
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`a rg u me nt . Si tting at t he t ab le i s Da vid Soo fi an , and Ja me s
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`B l ank fro m Ka ye S c hol er is a lso h er e .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Tha nk you .
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`M R . B ER GER: Th ank yo u .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: And for P etit ion er , p le as e .
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`M R . TUC KER: Goo d a ft e r noon , You r Ho nor . I ' m
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`Tod d Tu cke r fr om C a l fe e , Halt e r & Gr is wol d in Cle ve la nd .
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`

`

`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`Wi t h me is my p a r tn er M ar k M c Doug al l . I will b e sp ea king
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`on beh al f o f P et itio ne r , Uni te d S tate s End osc op y Gr ou p .
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`And with u s f ro m th e Un it ed S ta tes End os cop y
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`Gr oup is C r aig Moo r e , who i s Gene r al Coun se l of U. S .
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`End osc op y, a s wel l as Asso ci at e Ge ne r al Couns el , He a lth Ca r e
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`Di visio n , fo r U. S. End os cop y' s p a re nt co mp an y, S TER I S
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`C o rpo rat ion .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Tha nk you , a nd wel co me . I
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`wa nt t o co ve r a fe w thi ngs b ef or e we g et st a rt ed . I a m h e a r ing
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`f a ir l y f r equ entl y f r o m P e tit ion ers th at wh en t he r e is a n y
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`e l e me nt tha t ha sn' t b e en a ddr ess ed b y P a t ent Own e r , th at the
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`B oa rd shoul d consi de r th at el e me nt as p rov en .
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`And th at 's not how I und e rst and t he l a w. I d on 't
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`th ink t hat 's ho w th e r es t of th e P ane l und e rst ands the l a w.
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`S o , ye s , th e Pa tent Owne r 's arg u me nt s th at ar e no t
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`ma d e a r e waiv ed , bu t th e st and ar d f o r this pr oc ee ding i s
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`p re pond e ran c e of th e evid en ce , and t he P ane l wil l de c ide if
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`th e Pe tit ione r h as sh o wn th at , ev en i f th e Pa ten t Own er sa ys
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`no thing abo ut a pa r tic ul ar el e me nt , so tha t 's th e st and ar d ev en
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`wh e re t he r e ha sn 't b e en an a rgu me nt .
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`I und e rst and th at th e re we re ob jec tio ns to P at ent
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`Own e r' s d e mon st ra tiv es and t he r e is a n e w s et o f
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`d e mo nst r ativ es , so , P ate nt Own e r , do es t ha t me a n the
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`ob je cti ons h av e be en cu r ed to t hose de mo n st rat iv es? Ar e
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`th e re no lon ge r an y o b jec tions?
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`
`M R . B ARR : It is my u nd e rst andi ng t ha t th er e was
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`a me e t - and - con fer , t wo me e t - and -con f er s , an d we r eso lve d
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`c e rt ain o b ject ions th at both s ide s ha d . And then I be li ev e th at
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`P e titi one rs stil l ha ve c er ta in ob je ctio ns a nd th e y l odg ed th ose
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`wi th th e Boa rd a ft e r we h ad o ur me e t - and - con fe r .
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`S o th e y s till hav e - - the y c a n sp e ak f o r th e ms el ves
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`- - but th e y s til l ha ve ob jec tions to so me o f ou r slid es .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Oka y. I mi sun de rst ood th e
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`s equ en ce the n . So , P etit ion er , yo ur ob je ction s we r e do ne af te r
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`th e re visi on o f the de mo n st rat iv es?
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`M R . TUC KER: Th at 's co rr e ct , Your Hono r .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: And you still h av e th ose
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`ob je cti ons?
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`M R . TUC KER: So me we r e r e mo ved b ut we sti ll
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`h av e so me t ha t a re pe nding .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: And is this so me t hi ng th at
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`we n eed to t alk abo ut tod a y?
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`M R . TUC KER: We l l , t he y a r e mo st l y to the - - th e
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`sl id es a ppe a r to be fo r mi ng ne w a rgu me n ts tha t a r e no t pa rt of
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`th e p ap er r ec ord . Th e y a r e ce rt ain ly n o t c ha r act e ri za tio ns th at
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`we r e ma d e wh il e th e p ap er s we r e be ing fo r mu la te d in t his
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`c as e .
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`We wa n t to l odg e th e ob je ct ions , and I want ed
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`gu ida nc e fro m t he Bo a rd sh ould - - i f th e n e w arg u me nts a re ,
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`in de ed , ma d e -- sho uld we ob je ct ag ain d ur ing th is he a rin g or
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
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`do the se o b ject ions suf fi c e f or ma i nt ai ning t he r eco rd o r , yo u
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`kn o w, do es th e Bo ar d wa nt to rul e on the m n o w?
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`F r o m wh at we s ee in t he s lid es we h av e ob je cte d
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`to , th er e a r e s ever a l ne w a rgu me n ts b ein g ma d e th at h av e
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`n ev er b e en ma d e b ef or e in this c ase .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: And th at 's id ent ifi ed in th e
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`f ili ng you ma d e?
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`M R . TUC KER: Ye s , You r Hon or .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Oka y. Th e n, no , I won ' t - -
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`we won 't b e ruli ng o n thos e ob je ction s tod a y. Th e
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`d e mo nst r ativ es are not evi den c e and t he y a r e not file d .
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`B ut as we ma k e th e f in al d ec ision , we wil l
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`c onsi de r you r cont ent ions t ha t so me of P at ent Owner ' s
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`a rg u me nt s a r e new a nd , i f th e y a r e, in f ac t , ne w, th ey wo n ' t b e
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`c onsi de r ed a s pa rt o f ou r d e cisi on .
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`M R . TUC KER: Th ank yo u , You r Hon or .
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`J UDG E KAUF F MAN: Oka y. F r e qu ent l y
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`so me t hi ng th at come s u p is whet her o r not P etit ion er ' s r ep l y is
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`wi thin t he p e r mi ssi bl e sc ope of r epl y. An d I would l ike to
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`h ea r f ro m P a t ent Own e r i f you t hink an y p a rt o f P et it ion er 's
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`r ep l y is be yo nd th e p er mi s sibl e s cop e?
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`M R . B ARR : Judg e Kauf f ma n , we do bel ie ve t hat
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`th e re is a ne w posi tion tha t th e y took on , th at Pe tition e rs to ok
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`on r epl y t ha t is be yo nd the sco pe th at t he y s et fo rth in th eir
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`p eti tion .
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: And wh at is th at?
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`M R . B ARR : I c an add re ss it in mo re de tai l du ring
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`th e p r ese nt ation .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Tha t would b e f in e . Oka y.
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`M R . B ARR : B eca us e I think tha t 's on e o f th e on es
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`th at the y t old us th at t he y h av e an ob je cti on to . We h av e an
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`e qu al ob je ctio n .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Oka y. S o you c an e a ch
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`h an dl e t hat in you r p re sen ta tion?
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`M R . B ARR : Ri ght , witho ut ob je ctin g we c an
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`di scu ss it .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Oka y. Wh a t I wou ld li ke t o
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`a void is , whi le the P et ition e r is s pe ak ing I don 't want
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`ob je cti ons b y t he P a ten t Own er , and v ic e v er sa . We a r e go ing
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`to e ac h ma k e ou r p re se nta tion s .
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`I wil l be abl e t o h ea r wh at yo ur ob je ctio ns a r e a nd
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`wi ll ma k e a de ci sio n ab out th os e af t er wa rds as we ma k e th e
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`f in al d ec isio n in th e c as e .
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`S o me t i me s folk s c o me to th e he a ring and the y
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`h av e got a p re sent ati on a nd th e y wa nt t o giv e th at
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`p re se nta tion , and we h ave a lo t o f qu est ions . Pl e ase do n' t be
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`th ro wn b y th at . I kn o w wha t I ne ed t o f ind ou t to de c ide this
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`c as e and t hat ' s wh at I ' m g oing t o ask abo ut .
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`You kno w, we und er st and th is is a c as e abou t a
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`b rush , and tha t b rus h is us ed fo r obt ain ing t issu e s amp l e s o r
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`bi ops y. I t i s us ed i n a v a ri et y o f di f fe r ent wa ys in th e
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`di f fe r ent cl ai m s ub je ct ma t te r . So we und e rst and the ba si cs o f
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`th e su b ject ma t t er an d we don 't n ee d a le ngth y t al k a bout th at .
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`I do n ee d a coup le thi ngs as yo u a re giv ing you r
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`p re se nta tion s , pl ea se . The tr ans c ript is v er y v a lua ble to me
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`wh en I ' m wr it ing a f ina l de ci sion . And so you ne ed to r ef e r to
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`e xhib its and s lid es b y p a ge n u mb e r, b ec aus e I don 't wa nt t o be
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`on pag e 42 o f t he t r ans cr ipt l at e r and tr yi ng t o fi gu re out what
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`e xhib it you we r e t alk ing about . I wou ld li ke yo u to s a y I ' m
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`t alk ing about slide 6 no w o r I ' m t alki ng a bout s lid e 7 n o w.
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`I t is al so h elp ful to Judg e Dani els si nc e h e is
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`a pp ea rin g b y vi deo . So i f yo u co uld d o th at , pl e ase , I woul d
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`a pp re ci at e th at .
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`Al so , wh en we a re t alkin g ab out a p ar ti cul ar cl ai m,
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`l et 's b e sp e ci fi c abo ut th e cla i m s ub je ct ma t te r . I wou ld li ke
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`to not just us e s we ep ing t e r ms but l et 's tal k ab out tha t
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`p ar ti cul ar cl ai m a nd wha t th e issu e is th er e .
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`A c oup le o f th e qu est io ns t hat a re on my mi n d tha t
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`I hop e th at b oth sid es will add re ss a s we go th rou gh is th er e is
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`a gr e at d ea l o f foc us on the me a n ing of "biop s y, " and b y both
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`si de s an d b y th e e xp er ts .
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`As I lo ok a t th e cl ai m s ub je ct ma t te r , fo r
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`e xa mp l e - - and I di dn 't s a y a t th e b egin ning , b ut th is i s f or an
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`I nt er P ar te s R evie w 2014 -63 9 , 641 a nd 64 2 - - bu t as I look at
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`c l ai m 1 of 639 , i t is an app a ra tus , a nd i t ha s a b rus hin g
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`a pp ar atu s th at comp r i s es b rist le s . And th en it s a ys tho se
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`b ris tl es e xe rt s uf fi ci ent p r essu r e to c ond u ct a bio ps y to
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`di slodg e ce lls and p ick up a spe cime n o f tissu e , and t hen it
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`go es o n .
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`On e wa y to l ook a t th at cl ai m, t h at l i mi ta tion o f
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`th e cl ai m i s th at th e b rush ing a ppa ra tus mu s t be c apabl e o f
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`th at con duc t , doing a bi ops y t o dislo dge c ells , and so t he
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`f oc us is the n do es t he p ri or a rt h av e th at ca pab ilit y? And
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`th at 's wha t I want to he a r ab out fr om b oth sid es .
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`P e titi one r , ca n you t el l me ho w yo u wo uld l ike to
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`us e yo ur ti me to da y? You ar e goi ng t o go fi rst i f you l ik e an d
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`th en g o l ast i f you l ik e . Yo u can us e all yo ur ti me f i rst . Yo u
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`c an use al l you r ti me t o go las t . Ho w wo uld yo u like to d ivid e
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`yo u r t i me ?
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`M R . TUC KER: You r Ho nor , we wou ld li ke t o
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`h av e 30 mi nut es fo r ou r op enin g sta t e me nt and 3 0 min ut es f or
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`ou r re butt al s ta teme n t .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: So as yo u app ro ac h 30 I
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`wi ll t ell yo u th at yo u a re st ar ting to cut into yo ur r ebu tt al
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`t i me .
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`M R . TUC KER: Th ank yo u .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: I want ed t o po int ou t in
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`c as e eith e r sid e wa nts to c o mme n t on it , I thin k a t lea st i n 639
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`a nd 64 1 , th e se cond rou nd o f unp ate nt abil it y i s P a rash e r a nd
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`Ei sen . And it is fo r d epe nde nt cla ims 3 a nd 4 i n 639 a nd I
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`th ink i t is fo r de pe nd ent cl ai ms - - I do n' t ha ve tha t in f ront o f
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`me r i g ht no w b e ca us e I ' m l oo king a t 639 .
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`B ut t he p oint is , if yo u d o a g rou nd o f
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`un pat en tab ilit y f or c la i m 3 , and 3 de pe nds fr o m 1 , you hav e to
`
`sh o w f or 3 al l of th e l i mi ta tion s a re in 1 . All right .
`
`And so i f you g o b y a n Or mc o t yp e o f phi losop h y,
`
`a nd we a r e t alking abou t Or mc o v Al ign Tec hnology, i t ' s 498
`
`F . 3d 13 07 , th en if th er e i s a g rou nd o f u n pat en tab ilit y a g ain st
`
`a de pen den t c laim, t h at i t in clud es t he ind epe nde nt c l ai m.
`
`I f so me bo d y dis ag re es with t hat I wou ld li ke t o
`
`h ea r t hat . The r e is al so a c as e th at h as b ee n r evi e wed b y t h e
`
`C i rcu it o f a n I P R. I t is In R e Cu oz zo Sp e ed Tech . I t ju st
`
`c a me o ut i n F eb ru ar y. An d t hat ' s a t 201 5 Wes tl a w 44 8667 .
`
`And th er e th e Fede r al Ci rc uit u phe ld wh e re the Bo a rd appl ie d
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`a gr ound t ha t was a ga inst a d ep ende nt cl ai m t o th e
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`in dep end ent cl aim b e c aus e a ll o f tho se l i mi t ation s we r e
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`sh o wn .
`
`S o i f e ith e r sid e di s ag r ee s with tha t o r h as
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`so me t hi ng th e y wa nt t o ad d abo ut th at , I woul d lik e to he a r
`
`th at .
`
`Th at 's all I wo uld l ike to t alk abou t b ef or e we g et
`
`st a rt ed . Jud ge Gros s ma n?
`
`J UDGE GR OS SMAN: Nothi ng f urth e r .
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Judg e Dani els?
`
`J UDGE DANI ELS : I ' m ok a y, J udg e Kauf f ma n .
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: All righ t . Pe tit ion er , we
`
`h av e ou r o wn copy o f th e d e mo nst ra tiv es . An d , P et it ion er ,
`
`h av e you g ive n a h ar d co p y o f th e d e mo nst r ativ es t o th e cou rt
`
`r ep or te r?
`
`M R . TUC KER: I h av e not ye t .
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Do yo u h ave on e an d co uld
`
`yo u do th at?
`
`M R . TUC KER: Ac tu all y we h av e pu ll ed out a
`
`nu mb e r of slid es a nd also r eor gan iz ed our slid es , k ee ping th e
`
`o rig ina l nu mb e rs in yo u r st ac k . So to ma yb e he lp fol lo w
`
`a long a l ittl e ea sie r we 'v e ma d e st ac ks fo r both the cou rt
`
`r ep or te r and for th e c our t to fol low a lon g with tha t.
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: I ' m n ot s ur e I qui te
`
`f oll o wed th at . So t he cop ies tha t I ha ve a re d if f er ent in wh at
`
`wa y f r o m t h e copy t h a t you h av e?
`
`M R . TUC KER: You rs go nu me r i ca ll y. Ou r s , th e
`
`n e w v er sion s kips a ro und a lit tl e bit .
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: I l ike using wh at I h ave
`
`h er e , as lo ng a s you ide nti f y i t .
`
`M R . TUC KER: Ok a y. I wil l sa y th e s lid e nu mb e r .
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: Wo uld yo u lik e a c op y,
`
`Ju dge Gro ss ma n?
`
`J UDGE GR OS SMAN: No , I ' m o k ay.
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: O ka y. An d yo u a re going
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`to hav e t o id enti fy i t f or J udg e Dani el s an yh o w.
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`
`M R . TUC KER: Ye s , ye s .
`
`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: And i f you wou ld pl e ase
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`gi ve a cop y to the co ur t r epo rt e r .
`
`P a ten t Own er , hav e you pro vid ed a c op y t o th e
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`c ou rt rep or te r , i f yo u ha ve on e t hat y o u c an sp a re?
`
`M R . B ARR : Yes , we h ave cop ies fo r th e cou rt
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`r ep or te r .
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`J UDGE KAUF F MAN: All righ t . Pe tit ion er , we
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`a r e re ad y wh en you a re .
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`M R . TUC KER: Th ank yo u . M a y i t pl e as e th e
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`B oa rd . Agai n , I 'm To dd Tuck e r f ro m C a l f ee , Hal te r &
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`Gr is wo ld in Cl eve l and , Ohi o , an d I r ep r ese nt th e Pet ition e r ,
`
`Un ite d S tat es Endo sco p y Gr oup .
`
`Th es e c onsol id ated I PRs a re fo cus ed o n pa ten ts
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`th at go to , as Ju dg e Kauf f ma n al r ea d y me n tion ed , ess en tia ll y a
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`b rush .
`
`At inst itut ion th e B oa rd r eli ed on , f o r an ti cip ato r y
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`g roun ds , a P ar ashe r r ef e ren c e in comb i n ati on wit h so me
`
`t est i mo n y f ro m D r . M ich el Kah al eh , wh o is a do ctor , a
`
`g ast roi nt estin ologi st at th e Cor ne ll Me di cal Co lle ge.
`
`Add itio nal l y, th er e a re o bviou sne ss co mb in ati ons
`
`f o r se ve r al o f th e ot he r cla i ms th at in volv e so me o the r
`
`r e f er en ce s , na me l y Ei s e n an d M ar kus . Bu t as the pap er r ec ord
`
`h as b ee n de ve lope d in this ca se , the ke y i ss ue wh ich th e Bo ard
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`12
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`

`

`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`h as al re ad y n ote d is wha t do es biops y me a n? That ' s th e re al
`
`f oc al point .
`
`And we ca n co nne c t th e dots or pain t b y nu mb e r s ,
`
`i f you will , to go th rou gh th is r e cor d a nd s ee tha t the se th re e
`
`I nt er P ar te s R evie ws h av e st ar ted wi th Dr . Kah al eh p rovi ding
`
`hi s opin ion as to th e un de rst and ing o f so me t e r ms o f a r t , t er ms
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`o f a rt th at a r e f ound in th e p at ents a t is sue , th e pa tent s und e r
`
`r ev ie w .
`
`And th en a ft e r his d epo siti on a dec l ar ati on b y
`
`P a ten t Own er 's exp e rt , Dr . F r ank F r o mo wit z , who is an
`
`e mp l o ye e o f P atent Owne rs . And th en foll o wing that , k e epin g
`
`th e conn e ct th e dot s , we get Dr . F ro mo wi tz ' d epos ition whe r e
`
`h e not onl y c on fir ms t h at h e ag r ees with ma n y, i f not al l , of
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`th e d e fini tions tha t Dr . Ka hal eh g av e . He go es a littl e bi t
`
`f u rth er .
`
`Dr . Ka ha leh was ju st ask ed to o pine wh at so me
`
`t e r ms of a rt me a nt . Dr . Fr o mo wit z, ho wev e r , al so revi e wed
`
`a nd ana l yz ed the P a r ash er r ef e re nce . And at h i s de pos itio n
`
`Dr . F ro mo wi tz gav e so me q uit e st ar tli ng t est i mon y a bo ut ho w
`
`h e vi e wed th e Pa ra sh er r ef e ren c e and wha t it t e ach es .
`
`And it re all y c o me s do wn to wh ethe r te r ms in t he
`
`P a r ash er r ef e re nce me a n th e s a me thi ng a s th e t er ms in th e
`
`' 609 , the '9 13 a nd th e '044 pa ten t . And th e ma in a rgu me n t ,
`
`p er hap s th e c rux o f th es e e nti re I PR s , is al l of the cl ai ms
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`un de r rev ie w tal k a bout co lle ct ing o r p ene tr at ing ti ssu e ,
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`di f fe r ent l a ye r s of tis sue in th e epith el ia l la ye r , yo u kn o w,
`
`so me mi g ht h av e t wo la ye r s , s o me m i g ht hav e t hr e e l a ye r s ,
`
`bu t th e do cto rs ha ve both ag re ed th at wh en yo u a r e us ing
`
`th es e b rush es t o ma k e a c el l or tissu e coll e ctio n , i f yo u ge t a ll
`
`o f th e wa y to the su b mu cos a , yo u kno w yo u 'v e gon e f a r
`
`e nough to h av e sat isf ie d e ac h pe r mut at ion o f th is ti ssu e
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`p en et rat ion coll ec tio n or sa mp l ing c l ai m l a ngua ge .
`
`And going ev en fu rth e r , wh at Dr . Ka h ale h t esti fi ed
`
`to , Dr . F ro mo witz , in a r unnin g exc ha nge , he con fi rme d t ha t
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`wi thout issu e , h e c on fi r me d s ev er al t i me s th at , ind eed , h e as
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`on e o f sk ill in th e a r t r e ad s th e Pa ra sh er r ef e ren c e as t e ac hing
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`a br ush t hat has th e c ap abi lit y t o go all the wa y i nto th e
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`su b mu cos a .
`
`I f yo u tu rn t o - -
`
`J UDGE GR OS SMAN: M r . Tu cke r , is th at ho w yo u
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`in te rp r et tho se cla i ms , is tha t th e y ju st req ui re t he ca pa bili t y
`
`o f goi ng to the sub mu c os a?
`
`M R . TUC KER: We l l , t he y c l ai m us ing fun ctio nal
`
`t e r ms , lik e a bru sh - - cl ai m 1 o f the ' 609 is a go od ex a mp le .
`
`F o r inst an c e , in cl ai m 1 - - I ' m l ookin g a t Exhib it 101 o f th e
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`63 9 I P R - - colu mn 1 0 , it i s a roun d l ine 32 , 33 , h e s aid
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`b rush ing -- I ' m s o r r y, 3 1 , h e s aid: B r ushin g ap pa ra tus
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`c o mp r ising br istle s whi ch ex er t suf f ic ien t pr es sur e to cond uct
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`a biop s y to d islo dg e c el ls a nd pi ck up a sp e ci me n .
`
`
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`

`

`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`
`S o we br ought up in our init ia l pe ti tion t ha t th er e
`
`wa s , in de ed , fun ct ion al l angu ag e he r e . And und er In Re
`
`S c hr eib e r , ou r r ea d o f I n R e Sch r eib e r is tha t on e is a llo wed
`
`to use fu nct ion al l angu ag e in an app ar at us c la i m. Th e d ang er ,
`
`th e risk of u sing f un ctio nal la ngu ag e in an app ar atus cl ai m,
`
`ho wev e r , is th at it c an op en up p rio r a rt so th at , i f a pi e ce of
`
`p rio r ar t ha s th e st ru ctu r e pr es ent th at i s poss ibl e o r c ap ab le
`
`o f doi ng th at func tio n , it i s an anti cip ato r y p ie c e o f p rio r ar t .
`
`S o b y u sing the fun ct ion al l angu age th e y pu t th e
`
`c l ai ms a t r isk to wh e re , fo r ma n y o f th es e c la i ms , if not all of
`
`th e m, b y s h o wing th at P ar ash e r h ad t he s tr uc tur e the y a r e
`
`t alk ing about , then i t f ollo ws , be c aus e fun ctio nal lang uag e
`
`wa s us ed i n an app ar at us c la i m, t hat the fun ct ion is pr e sen t .
`
`I nt er es tingl y, t houg h , an d I t hink hop e full y t his
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`wi ll h elp t he Bo ar d , Dr . F ro mo wi t z , ag ai n , tu rn to -- I ' m o n
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`p ag e 98 o f his depo siti on , whi ch i s, I b eli eve , Exhibi t 2001 .
`
`S t ar ting o n pa ge 98 , he 's t al king abo ut - - we 'r e
`
`di scu ssin g P a ras he r and I ask ed him:
`
`" Que stion : Would i t b e f ai r , a s one of skil l in t he
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`a r t , fo r yo u to und er st and th at this s ent en ce " -- and i f we
`
`s c roll u p , th e s ent en ce is "b ri stl es o f th e b rush col lec t s a mp le
`
`s c rap ings o f t issue s ," whic h in Pa ra sh er - - I a m a l itt le t ight
`
`th e re on sp ac e -- a nd Pa r ash er is Exh ibit 103 in all th re e I PRs .
`
`J UDGE GR OS SMAN: M r . Tu cke r , a r e you
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`r e f er rin g to t he de c la r ation or to th e d eposi tion?
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`
`M R . TUC KER: Th e d eposi tion , oh, I ' m s o r r y, i t' s
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`10 12 in 63 9 an d 64 1 , an d it 's Ex hibi t 1013 in 642 .
`
`And when he was a sk ed wh eth er this ph ras e --
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`wh at d id thi s s ente nc e me a n t o hi m, " th e br istl es o f th e
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`b rush " -- the P ar ash e r b rush - - " coll e ct s a mp le sc r apin gs o f
`
`t issu es and b rushin gs o f c el ls a t the se le ct ed ar e a ," h e was
`
`a sk ed:
`
`" Que stion : Would i t b e f ai r , a s one of skil l in t he
`
`a r t , fo r yo u to und er st and th at this s ent en ce is s a ying t he
`
`s c rap ings o f th e tis su e would be h ist olog ic , t he b ru shi ngs o f
`
`th e ce lls wo uld be c yt olo gic?
`
`" Ans wer : Ye s ."
`
`B ut we k eep going . I th en ask ed hi m:
`
`" Que stion : S o let 's k e ep th at u p , but le t' s look at
`
`- - my c o p y o f Depo siti on Exhi bit 6 , " whi ch in our s l id es
`
`wou ld b e sli de n umb e r 3 o f ou r p r es ent ati on , whi ch h e h ad
`
`l ab el ed - - t his i s f r o m t he '60 9 an d th e '913 pa ten t , bu t we
`
`we r e t r yi ng to ma k e su r e we we re al l usin g th e sa me t e r m, s o
`
`h e h ad l ab ele d kind of t he g eog r aph y o f t he spe ci me n .
`
`" Que stion : S o in Exh ibit 6 , th e P ar a she r p at ent ,
`
`c olu mn 3 , l in e 27, wh en t he y a r e dis cu ssing sc r apings of
`
`t issu e , wh at th e y a r e t alk ing about , wh en we loo k at f igu r e 5
`
`f r o m t he '60 9 pa te nt , i s hop ef ull y g ett ing in to th e sub mu c os a?
`
`" Ans wer : Ye s ."
`
`Th e re was an ob je c ti on . He th en sa id:
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
`
`
`" Ans wer : Wai t . C o me b a ck . You a r e po intin g to
`
`th e p ict ur e at me a nd askin g me to do so me th ing else . Le t 's
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`st a rt ag ain . I ' m so r r y. " So h e was a lit tl e co nfu se d so we
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`c l ean ed i t b ack up . An d I ask ed:
`
`" Que stion : Wha t I a m a s kin g is , wh en i t sa ys
`
`s c rap ings o f t issue in t hat sen te nc e, I a m ju s t us ing fig ur e 5 s o
`
`we h ave so me th ing i llus tr at ive , that what th e y a r e t alk ing
`
`a bout is s cr ap ing . Th e s cr ap ings ar e a s a mp l e th at wi ll go ,
`
`wi ll in clu de t he sub mu c os a?
`
`" Ans wer : Not n ec es sa ri l y. Not f ro m t hi s .
`
`" Que stion : B ut it c ould ; r ight?
`
`" Ans wer : I t co uld , b ut it doe sn 't re li abl y d o th at .
`
`" Que stion : B ut it' s po ssib le?
`
`" Ans wer : I t' s poss ibl e , ye s .
`
`" Que stion : Th ank yo u . B e cau se wh en we r e ad --
`
`i f we go b ac k an d r e ad colu mn 1 of P a r ash er - -" and th en I
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`s aid "st rik e th at " b ec aus e I was stumb l in g ov er my o wn wo rd s .
`
`" Wh en we l ook at c olu mn 2 o f Pa r ash e r , a t lin e 24 ,
`
`25 it 's t alk ing abou t a g ro ss tis su e s a mp l e or biops y. Do yo u
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`s ee th at?
`
`" Ans wer : Ye s .
`
`" Que stion : S o wh en yo u se e g ross t issu e s a mp le
`
`o r bio ps y b eing ga th er ed b y a b rush , a g ross tissu e " - - and
`
`no w I ' m o n p ag e 10 0 - - " gro ss ti ssu e s a mp le bei ng g ath e red b y
`
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`Case IPR2014-00639 (Patent 6,676,609)
`Case IPR2014-00641 (Patent 7,004,913)
`Case IPR2014-00642 (Patent 6,258,044)
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`a br ush , as on e o f sk ill i n th e a rt , you und ers tan d th at tha t
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`in cl ude s , in at l east so me i nst an ces, in to th e su b mu cos a?
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`s a yin g th at in at le as