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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` 2
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` - - -
`
` 4
` PARROT S.A. and PARROT, INC.,
` 5
`
` Petitioners,
`
` 6
`
` vs.
`
` 7
` DRONE TECHNOLOGIES, INC.,
` 8
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` ) Case IPR2014-00730
` ) IPR2014-00732
` )
` ) Patents 7,584,071
` )
` 8,106,746
` )
` )
` )
` )
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`10
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` - - -
`
` Deposition of DR. RAFFAELLO D'ANDREA
`
` Thursday, January 8, 2015
`
` - - -
`
` The deposition of DR. RAFFAELLO D'ANDREA, called
`14 as a witness by the Patent Owner, pursuant to notice
` and Rules 26 and 30 of the Federal Rules of Civil
`15 Procedure, and 37 C.F.R 42.53, pertaining to the
` taking of depositions, taken before me, the
`16 undersigned, Melissa L. Fenster, a Notary Public in
` and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, at the
`17 Offices of Beck & Thomas, P.C., 1575 McFarland Road,
` Suite 100, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15216, commencing
`18 at 8:22 o'clock a.m., the day and date above set
` forth.
`19
`
` - - -
` COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION BY
` MORSE, GANTVERG & HODGE, INC.
` PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA
` 412-281-018
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)
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`

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` 2
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` 1 APPEARANCES:
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` On behalf of the Petitioners:
`
` Osha Liang:
` James Hopenfeld, Esquire
` 2200 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
` Fourth Floor
` Washington, D.C. 20037
`
` Osha Liang:
` Han-Mei Tso, Esquire
` Two Houston Center, Suite 3500
` 909 Fannin Street
` Houston, Texas 77010
`
` On behalf of the Patent Owner:
`
` Beck & Thomas, P.C.:
` Gene Tabachnick, Esquire
` James G. Dilmore, Esquire
` 1575 McFarland Road, Suite 100
` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15216
`
` - - -
` INDEX
` - - -
`
`15 EXAMINATION:
`
`16 BY MR. TABACHNICK
` BY MR. HOPENFELD
`17
` DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
`18
` 2001 Declaration Signature Page, '071
`19
` 2002 Appendix A, Materials Considered by
`20
` Dr. Raffaello D'Andrea
`
`21 2003 Smith Patent
`
`22 2004 Potiron Patent, French
`
`23 2005 Translation Certification
`
`24 2006 Declaration, '071
`
`25 2007 Lee Patent, '071
`
` PAGE:
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` 6
` 322
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` PAGE:
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` 72
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` 103
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` 112
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` 125
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` 125
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`
`

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` 3
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` 1 EXHIBITS (CONT.)
`
` 2 2008 Bathiche Patent 200
`
` 3 2009 Declaration, '748 286
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` 4 2010 Parrot Exhibits 1011 and 1010 287
`
` 5 2011 Lee Patent, '748 294
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` 6 - - -
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` OBJECTIONS: PAGE:
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` BY MR. HOPENFELD 23
` 9 BY MR. HOPENFELD 24
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`13 BY MR. HOPENFELD 46
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`14 BY MR. HOPENFELD 51
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`16 BY MR. HOPENFELD 56
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`_|_234567OO9O_|_2345678OJ0_|.2345____._______________222222
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` 4
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` 1 OBJECTIONS:
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` 2 BY MR. HOPENFELD 101
` BY MR. HOPENFELD 102
` 3 BY MR. HOPENFELD 112
` BY MR. HOPENFELD 113
` 4 BY MR. HOPENFELD 116
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`l OQJTCTIONS:
` 1 OBJECTIONS:
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` 6
`
` 1 DR. RAFFAELLO D'ANDREA
`
` 2 called as a witness by the Patent Owner, having been
`
` 3 first duly sworn, as hereinafter certified, was
`
` 4 deposed and said as follows:
`
` 5 EXAMINATION
`
` 6 BY MR. TABACHNICK:
`
` 7 Q Good morning, Dr. D'Andrea. Am I
`
` 8 pronouncing your name correctly?
`
` 9 A Close enough.
`
`10 Q How do you pronounce it?
`
`11 A D'Andrea is the Italian way, but D'Andrea
`
`12 is fine.
`
`13 Q When you introduce yourself, do you say
`
`14 D'Andrea or --
`
`15 A I introduce myself as Raff usually, so.
`
`16 Q All right. I wouldn't be comfortable
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`17 calling you Raff in a --
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`18 A Whatever you're more comfortable with.
`
`19 Q So forgive me if I --
`
`20 A That's fine.
`
`21 Q -- go with Dr. D'Andrea. Welcome to
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`22 Pittsburgh.
`
`23 A Thank you.
`
`24 Q My name is Gene Tabachnick. I'm one of the
`
`25 lawyers representing Drone Technologies, Inc. in the
`
`
`
`
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` 7
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` 1 proceedings that we have against Parrot. Are you
`
` 2 familiar with those proceedings?
`
` 3 A I am.
`
` 4 Q And we invited you here today so that we
`
` 5 could take your deposition in connection specifically
`
` 6 with the IPR Proceedings. Are you aware of that?
`
` 7 A I am.
`
` 8 Q When was the first time you offered a
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` 9 formal opinion regarding the validity of a patent?
`
`10 A When was the first time I offered a formal
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`11 opinion about the validity of a patent? In these
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`12 proceedings.
`
`13 Q So this is the first time. You're a
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`14 novice.
`
`15 A I'm a novice.
`
`16 Q How did you come to be involved in Parrot's
`
`17 validity challenge?
`
`18 A They contacted me in February of 2014.
`
`19 Q Who contacted you, sir?
`
`20 A I'm trying to remember exactly who it was.
`
`21 I actually think it was --
`
`22 It might have been you, James.
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`23 MR. HOPENFELD: It might have been.
`
`24 A Yeah.
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`25 Q And he called you or --
`
`
`
`
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` 8
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` 1 A He sent me an email.
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` 2 Q And you were in Zurich at the time?
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` 3 A No. I was in Sochi at the Olympics.
`
` 4 Q What did the email say, do you recall?
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` 5 A The exact details, of course, I don't
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` 6 recall, but it was along the lines of if was available
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` 7 to participate in a patent litigation case involving
`
` 8 Parrot.
`
` 9 Q Okay. And had you ever participated in a
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`10 patent litigation case before?
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`11 A Not in a patent litigation case, but let's
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`12 say -- when was that -- maybe 15 years ago when I was
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`13 at Cornell University I was retained by Covington &
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`14 Burling to go over some patents.
`
`15 Q To do a technical review?
`
`16 A Yeah. A technical review, yeah.
`
`17 Q Did either Mr. Hopenfeld or anybody from
`
`18 Parrot explain why they wanted you to help them with
`
`19 the patent litigation case?
`
`20 A They asked me if was -- if I could help
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`21 them determine the validity of some patents.
`
`22 Q My question was a little different. I'm
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`23 going to have the court reporter read it back.
`
`24 A Sure.
`
`25 (Last question read back.)
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` A
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` Why me in particular, is that --
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` Q
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` Yes.
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` A
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` -- how I can read that question?
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` Q
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` Yes.
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` A
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` They felt that I was an expert in the area.
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` Q
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` Did you feel that you were an expert in the
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` 7 area?
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` 8
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` 9
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`10
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` A
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` Absolutely.
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` Q
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` Which area are we talking about, sir?
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` A
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` Control systems, and specifically how they
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`11 relate to flying things.
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`12
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`13
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`14
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` Q
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` To flying things did you say?
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` A
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` Yeah.
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` Q
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` Now, when you refer to flying things, what
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`15 sort of flying things are you talking about?
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`16
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` A
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` Things that fly. I mean, I don't know what
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`17 more detail you want me to --
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`18
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` Q
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` Okay. Well, we're not talking about birds,
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`19 right?
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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` A
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` No, no.
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` Q
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` We're not talking about frisbies?
`
` A
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` No.
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` Q
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` Okay. So we're talking about mechanical
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`24 devices or electrical devices?
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`25
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` A
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` Yeah, electromechanical devices.
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` 1 Q So airplanes or drones in this case?
`
` 2 A Right.
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` 3 Q Or helicopters?
`
` 4 A Right.
`
` 5 Q Is that where your particular expertise
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` 6 lies?
`
` 7 A My expertise is in controlling dynamical
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` 8 systems.
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` 9 Q Dynamical did you say?
`
`10 A Yeah, controlling dynamical systems.
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`11 Q And is that different than controlling
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`12 flying things?
`
`13 A Controlling flying things is one aspect of
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`14 controlling things.
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`15 Q So when they asked you if you could help
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`16 them with a patent litigation, how did you respond?
`
`17 A I responded that I may be able to do it and
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`18 that it would depend on -- I would have to look at the
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`19 patents in question.
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`20 Q And why did you want to look at the patents
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`21 in question?
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`22 A To make sure that I would be able to offer
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`23 an expert opinion. If it was outside of my area of
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`24 expertise, I would have said no.
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`25 Q So you just wanted to make sure it was
`
`
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` 11
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` 1 within the realm of controlling dynamic systems?
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` 2 A In the realm of control systems.
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` 3 Q Of control systems. Did I miss hear you?
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` 4 Did you say dynamic systems or --
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` 5 A Control, control of dynamic systems, it's
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` 6 very difficult for me to pinpoint the area of what I
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` 7 do.
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` 8 Q Okay. So let me just tell you you're way
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` 9 smarter than I am about this stuff so if --
`
`10 MR. HOPENFELD: No objection.
`
`11 Q So if I take a little longer to understand
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`12 what you're saying, please bare with me. The other
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`13 thing is if I don't use the right terminology -- and I
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`14 will try, but if I'm not using thing right
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`15 terminology, then please let me know.
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`16 A Sure, sure.
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`17 Q If I ask a question and you don't
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`18 understand it, please --
`
`19 A Absolutely.
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`20 Q -- tell me.
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`21 A Absolutely.
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`22 Q And I'll ask it the right way.
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`23 Also, you have to wait until I finish
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`24 speaking before you answer so that the court reporter
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`25 can get down everything that's said.
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` 12
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` 1 MR. HOPENFELD: And so I can object, if
`
` 2 necessary.
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` 3 Q But if I ask a question and you answer it,
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` 4 I'm going to assume that you understood the question.
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` 5 Fair enough?
`
` 6 A Yeah.
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` 7 Q All right. So you wanted to look at the
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` 8 patents. How many patents were there?
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` 9 A Two.
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`10 Q And was that the next thing you did? You
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`11 looked at the patents?
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`12 A I recall that to be the case.
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`13 Q Okay. Mr. Hopenfeld or somebody from
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`14 Parrot sent them to you?
`
`15 A Yes, correct.
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`16 Q And do you remember what the patents were?
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`17 A Yes.
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`18 Q They were the two Lee patents?
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`19 A That is correct.
`
`20 Q So patent lawyers tend to refer to patents
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`21 by the last three digits.
`
`22 A Right.
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`23 Q So one is '071 and one is '748.
`
`24 A Exactly.
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`25 Q We're talking about the same patents?
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` 13
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` 1 A Exactly.
`
` 2 Q Okay. And what did you do when you
`
` 3 reviewed the patents?
`
` 4 A I looked them over to determine if it was
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` 5 within my area of expertise.
`
` 6 Q How long did that take?
`
` 7 A Maybe two hours.
`
` 8 Q Okay. And what did you determine?
`
` 9 A That it was within my realm of expertise.
`
`10 Q Meaning that the '071 and '748 patents are
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`11 related to controlling dynamic systems?
`
`12 A That is correct.
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`13 Q Are they also related to controlling
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`14 dynamic systems, and specifically how they relate to
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`15 flying things, such as airplanes and drones?
`
`16 A I would say that they are.
`
`17 Q So did you report back that it was within
`
`18 the realm of your expertise?
`
`19 A That is correct.
`
`20 Q Who did you report that to?
`
`21 A I believe it was probably James again.
`
`22 Q Okay. Have all your interactions in this
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`23 matter been with Mr. Hopenfeld, or have you interacted
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`24 with other folks of the firm Parrot or on Parrot's
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`25 behalf?
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 14
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` 1 A The only folks I have interacted with are
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` 2 James, Tammy Terry, also a lawyer at the firm, and
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` 3 some administrative folks for travel-related things.
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` 4 Q Okay. What about any of the technical
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` 5 folks at Parrot?
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` 6 A No.
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` 7 Q You have never interacted with any of them?
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` 8 A No.
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` 9 Q What about the business folks at Parrot,
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`10 have you ever interacted with any of those?
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`11 A No.
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`12 Q So after you reported back to Mr. Hopenfeld
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`13 that the '071 and '748 patents were within the realm
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`14 of your expertise, what happened next?
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`15 A I then told them that I was very busy and
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`16 that I would only be able to do it if certain
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`17 conditions were met, like, an estimate of the amount
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`18 of time it would take and the timeframe in which all
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`19 of this would take place.
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`20 Q Okay. Do you recall what you told them in
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`21 terms of estimated amount of time it would take, how
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`22 much you had available?
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`23 A Yeah. I think I had said something along
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`24 the lines of about 40 hours.
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`25 Q And was that within a particular time
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 15
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` 1 period? Over the next month I have 40 hours? Over
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` 2 the next 6 months I have 40 hours?
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` 3 A What I remember it to be was roughly over
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` 4 the next two or three months.
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` 5 Q And did you spend those 40 hours?
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` 6 A I believe that I did.
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` 7 Q And did you get paid for the 40 hours?
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` 8 A I did.
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` 9 Q And what did you spend the 40 hours doing?
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`10 A I spent the 40 hours creating the
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`11 declaration.
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`12 Q Okay. You actually have two declarations,
`
`13 right?
`
`14 A Right.
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`15 Q And there's some overlaps? I'm not
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`16 imagining it was 20 hours for one declaration and
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`17 20 hours for the other?
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`18 A That is correct.
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`19 Q What else did you do other than creating
`
`20 the declarations?
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`21 A Well, everything related to creating the
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`22 declarations, so perhaps, you're asking what did
`
`23 creating the declarations involve?
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`24 Q Sure.
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`25 A Okay. Creating the declarations involved
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 16
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` 1 going over the two patents very carefully,
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` 2 understanding exactly what they said to the best of my
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` 3 knowledge and to review prior art, and that would be
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` 4 the bulk of it. That's what I used to create the
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` 5 declaration.
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` 6 Q How long do you think you spent going over
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` 7 the two patents very carefully?
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` 8 A Probably if I were to estimate, four to
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` 9 eight hours each.
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`10 Q And how long do you think you spent
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`11 reviewing prior art?
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`12 A Probably maybe 10 to 20 hours.
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`13 Q Total or each?
`
`14 A Total.
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`15 Q And then did also you spend time actually
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`16 putting fingers to keyboard or pen to paper?
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`17 A And creating the declaration.
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`18 Q That's all the part of the -- or was that
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`19 an additional effort?
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`20 A That was an additional effort.
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`21 Q Okay. How long do you think you spent
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`22 putting the declaration together, actually drafting
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`23 it?
`
`24 A Creating the declaration took I would say
`
`25 between 10 and 20 hours, and there's overlap amongst
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 17
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` 1 all those things of course.
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` 2 Q Of course. And did you draft the
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` 3 declaration yourself?
`
` 4 A I did not do the typing.
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` 5 Q Okay. Who did the typing?
`
` 6 A Tammy Terry.
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` 7 Q Was she with you doing it?
`
` 8 A Yes.
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` 9 Q In Zurich?
`
`10 A In Zurich yes.
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`11 Q Is she a better typist than you are?
`
`12 A Yeah.
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`13 Q Do you recall how long she was with you in
`
`14 Zurich?
`
`15 A Yes. 20 hours.
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`16 Q And was all of that spent doing the typing
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`17 for the declarations?
`
`18 A Was the 20 hours spent doing the typing?
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`19 Q Yes.
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`20 A Amongst other things.
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`21 Q Okay. What other things?
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`22 A We also created the claim charts.
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`23 Q Anything else?
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`24 A Not to my recollection.
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`25 Q So you and Ms. Terry together -- or at
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 18
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` 1 least she was doing the manual --
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` 2 A Right.
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` 3 Q -- effort of typing. You were giving her
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` 4 the input I presume?
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` 5 A Yeah. We were discussing the input,
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` 6 correct.
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` 7 Q And I'm assuming she was giving you
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` 8 guidance on format and things like that?
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` 9 A Well, she was taking care of the format.
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`10 Q So there was typing the declarations and
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`11 the claim charts. Anything else that you and
`
`12 Ms. Terry did together?
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`13 A No. I don't recall.
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`14 Q How much time did you spend doing research
`
`15 to identify the prior art that you needed for your
`
`16 analysis?
`
`17 A I would have included that in the 20 hours
`
`18 that I did overall.
`
`19 Q Okay. So how much time did you spend doing
`
`20 the research?
`
`21 A I don't remember. I remember the total was
`
`22 about 20 hours. I don't remember the -- it's hard for
`
`23 me to say --
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`24 Maybe ask your question again.
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`25 Q Okay. I apologize.
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 19
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` 1 A Sure.
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` 2 Q How much time did you spend identifying
`
` 3 prior art that you would review?
`
` 4 A I understand your question now. Most of
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` 5 the prior art was given to me.
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` 6 Q By whom?
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` 7 A By James.
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` 8 Q Mr. Hopenfeld?
`
` 9 A Correct.
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`10 Q And when did he give you the prior art?
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`11 A I don't remember.
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`12 Q Was it before Ms. --
`
`13 A Yes.
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`14 Q -- Terry came to Zurich?
`
`15 A Clearly, yes.
`
`16 Q Did you have an opportunity to review the
`
`17 prior art before Ms. Terry came to Zurich?
`
`18 A Yes.
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`19 Q Did you have any issues with any of the
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`20 prior art that Parrot's lawyers provided to you?
`
`21 A What do you mean by "issues"?
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`22 Q I don't think this is relevant. Isn't this
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`23 the same as something else? Do I really need to look
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`24 at all of this? I have a better idea. Any of that?
`
`25 A No, not to my recollection.
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 20
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` 1 Q Okay. Were you satisfied that the prior
`
` 2 art provided to you by Parrot's lawyers was sufficient
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` 3 for you to perform your analysis?
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` 4 A Yes.
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` 5 Q And you didn't feel the need to do any
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` 6 independent research?
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` 7 A Define independent research.
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` 8 Q Research independent of what Parrot's
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` 9 lawyers provided to you?
`
`10 A I had my textbooks that I made references
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`11 to.
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`12 Q Which textbooks?
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`13 A Textbooks in my office.
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`14 Q Can you recall any of those?
`
`15 A I have many textbooks. I don't recall the
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`16 specific one.
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`17 Q If my recollection is correct, you included
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`18 in your declarations a list of references reviewed or
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`19 something like that. Did you include the textbooks in
`
`20 that list, do you recall?
`
`21 A I don't recall. I can certainly have a
`
`22 look at the declarations.
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`23 Q All right. But if you had relied on the
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`24 textbooks, you would have included them so that we
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`25 would know what you looked at?
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`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 21
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` 1 A Right.
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` 2 Q Anything else that you reviewed independent
`
` 3 of what Parrot's lawyers provided to you prior
`
` 4 art-wise?
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` 5 A Not to my recollection.
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` 6 Q When Parrot's lawyers provided you with the
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` 7 prior art, did they give you any direction or any
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` 8 sense of their view of the prior art?
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` 9 A I'm not sure I understand what you're
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`10 asking me.
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`11 Q Well, let me try again.
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`12 A Yeah.
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`13 Q I can imagine two scenarios. One is,
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`14 Dr. D'Andrea, here is a stack of prior art references
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`15 that we think are pertinent. Please take a look at
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`16 them and let us know what you think. Or, Raff, here's
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`17 the analysis we did. If you look at this reference,
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`18 you'll see that it's got these things. If you look at
`
`19 this reference, it's got the missing stuff.
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`20 Do you understand the distinction I'm
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`21 drawing?
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`22 A I see what you're saying, yeah. I would
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`23 say it was more of the former.
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`24 Q And so you independently reviewed the prior
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`25 art provided by Parrot's lawyers and came up with your
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 22
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` 1 analysis?
`
` 2 A That is correct.
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` 3 Q And then did you provide your analysis to
`
` 4 Parrot's lawyers as a preliminary matter, or did you
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` 5 just go straight to preparing the declarations?
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` 6 A I don't recall the exact sequence, but I'm
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` 7 trying to infer what -- what I probably would have
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` 8 done is probably would have told them my initial
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` 9 reaction to my findings.
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`10 Q To the prior art --
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`11 A That is correct.
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`12 Q -- that they gave you?
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`13 A Yes.
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`14 Q But you don't recall doing that?
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`15 A No.
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`16 Q All right. So Parrot's lawyers were
`
`17 content to have you prepare your analysis based on the
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`18 prior art they gave you without walking you through
`
`19 what they thought of the prior art; is that right?
`
`20 A Without walking me through what they
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`21 thought of the prior art? I think in the process of
`
`22 us when we were creating the declaration, I think
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`23 that -- I'm sure that their opinions would have come
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`24 out at that time.
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`25 Q Okay. And then their opinions were
`
`
`
`
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`(cid:898)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1004)(cid:1006)(cid:1006)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:1013)(cid:3)(cid:876)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:899)(cid:3)
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` 23
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` 1 incorporated into the declarations?
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` 2 A N