throbber
1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 1
`
` D. Hartogs
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________
`ERICSSON INC. AND TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON,
` Petitioner
` v.
` INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC,
` Patent Owner
` _____________________________
` Case No. IPR2014-01185
` Patent No. 7,269,127
`Title: PREAMBLE STRUCTURES FOR SINGLE-INPUT,
` SINGLE-OUTPUT (SISO) and MULTI-INPUT,
` MULTI-OUTPUT (MIMO) COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DIRK HARTOGS, Ph.D.
` Washington, D.C.
` July 29, 2015
`
` Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk
` Job No. 95835
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Ericsson v. IV, IPR2014-01185
`Page 1 of 210
`
`

`
` D. Hartogs
`
`Page 2
`
` July 29, 2015
` 9:14 a.m.
`
` Deposition of DIRK HARTOGS, Ph.D, held
`at the offices of Sterne Kessler Goldstein & Fox,
`1100 New York Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C.,
`pursuant to Notice before Mary Ann Payonk,
`Nationally Certified Realtime Reporter and
`Notary Public of the District of Columbia,
`Commonwealth of Virginia, States of Maryland
`and New York.
`
`1
`
`2 3 4 5
`
`6
`
`7 8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 2 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 3
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`APPEARANCES:
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` JOHN RUSSELL EMERSON, ESQUIRE
` J. ANDREW LOWES, ESQUIRE
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Dallas, Texas 75219
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` BYRON PICKARD, ESQUIRE
` STERNE KESSLER GOLDSTEIN & FOX
` 1100 New York Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Jasmin Rice, legal video specialist
` Steven W. Peters, Ph.D., Patent Agent
` Sterne Kessler
` James Hietala, Esquire, in-house
` counsel, Intellectual Ventures
` (By phone)
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 3 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 4
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
`start of videotape labeled number 1 in
`the videotaped deposition of Dirk
`Hartogs taken in the matter of Ericsson,
`Inc. et al. versus Intellectual Ventures
`II LLC in the United States Patent and
`Trademark Office before the Patent Trial
`and Appeal Board, Case IPR2014-01185,
`U.S. Patent Numbers 7,269,127.
` Today's date is July 29, 2015 and
`the time is approximately 9:15 a.m. My
`name is Jasmin Rice here on behalf of
`TSG Reporting, Inc. I'm the legal
`videographer.
` The court reporter is Mary Ann
`Payonk, also in association with
`TSG Reporting, Inc.
` Will counsel please introduce
`themselves for the record at this time?
` (Whereupon, counsel placed their
`appearances on the video record.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
`reporter please swear in the witness.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 4 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 5
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`DIRK HARTOGS, Ph.D.,
` called as a witness, having been duly
` sworn, was examined and testified as
` follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Hartogs.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. How are you?
` A. Just fine. How are you doing?
` Q. Are you feeling well today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Any reason why you couldn't testify
`truthfully and completely this morning?
` A. No, there's not.
` Q. No drugs in your system or anything
`like that?
` A. No.
` Q. No medications?
` A. Nothing that would affect this.
` Q. That would affect you? Got you.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. When was the last time you were
`deposed?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 5 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` A. Couple of years ago. I'm not sure
`when.
` Q. And what was that in connection with?
` A. I'm -- yeah, I'm -- I'm not sure.
` Q. Well, were you serving as an expert
`witness in a --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- intellectual property matter?
` A. Yes.
` Q. This deposition that you were
`involved in a couple of years ago, you were an
`expert witness in an IP dispute?
` A. That's correct. Yes.
` Q. Okay. How many times approximately
`have you been deposed?
` A. I'm -- I'm not sure. 10, might be a
`little bit more.
` Q. I'm going to hand you what has been
`marked as Exhibit 2009, which is a copy of your
`declaration in this IPR. And I'll go ahead and
`hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 2010,
`which is the CV that you submitted --
` A. Okay.
` Q. -- with your declaration in this IPR.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 6 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Let me ask you this: Have you ever
`served as an expert witness in an IPR?
` A. No.
` Q. So this is your --
` A. This -- this is the first one, yes.
` Q. How is it that you came to be engaged
`by Intellectual Ventures?
` A. I do expert witness work. Some of
`that is because attorneys contact me directly;
`some is initialized when attorneys contact an
`intermediary. And I do work for several
`intermediaries. In this case, there was such
`an intermediary --
` Q. Who's that?
` A. -- and it -- IM -- IMS Experts.
` Q. I'm familiar with them.
` Have you ever served as an expert
`witness or a consultant for Intellectual
`Ventures before this case?
` A. Actually, I may want to slightly
`amend my previous answer. There was another
`IPR involving intellectual property --
`Intellectual Ventures that also started last
`year, but it did not get to the point of
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 7 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 8
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`deposition. But I assisted in that matter.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Same -- same party, same attorneys,
`same intermediary. And I -- okay.
` Q. Okay. Okay. So other than these two
`IPRs on which you have worked --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- for Intellectual Ventures, have
`you had any other cases or matters for which
`you have consulted for Intellectual Ventures?
` A. No.
` Q. No? Okay.
` Let's take a look at your CV --
` A. Okay.
` Q. -- which is Exhibit 2010.
` And on the first page there under
`"Professional Experience," you list '96 to
`present, Eager & Eager, LLC; and then from '85
`to '90, CaliforniaTechnologyExperts.com.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Now, I just want to make sure I
`understand this. This is -- this employer
`here, Eager & Eager LLC, it says d/b/a, and
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 8 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 9
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`then the next line,
`CaliforniaTechnologyExperts.com, that's the
`same company; right? Or is it?
` A. That's the same organization.
` Q. Same?
` A. Eager & Eager has several d/b/a's.
`This is one of them.
` Q. Okay. And so you worked for Eager &
`Eager d/b/a CaliforniaTechnologyExperts.com
`from '96 until present; correct?
` A. At -- as a minimum. And I point out
`that Eager & Eager's the current name of the
`organization. It had other names previously.
` Q. But it's the same entity?
` A. It's the same entity, structured as
`an LLC. Originally, it was a d/b/a.
` Q. Okay. And it's the same entity that
`you worked for from '85 to '90; right?
` A. Yes. I worked for that entity full
`time for the years shown, but I have also
`worked part-time for that entity for all years
`from I believe 1983 to the present. So even
`when I was working as an employee full-time at
`Canon, for example, I was doing some work for
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 9 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 10
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`what became Eager & Eager.
` Q. Okay. Would you turn to your
`declaration, please, on page 3, paragraph 8?
` A. Okay.
` Q. And there, it says: "since 1995, I
`worked as a -- I have worked as a technologist
`supporting major intellectual property
`disputes."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Is -- I'm just trying to correlate
`that with the professional experience on the
`first page of your declaration that we see
`here.
` A. I -- I understand.
` Q. Yeah, so could you explain the
`discrepancy there?
` MR. PICKARD: You need to ask a
` question. What's the question?
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Well, 1995 -- in paragraph 8 of your
`declaration, it says since 1995, you have been
`working as a technologist --
` A. Yes.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 10 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. -- supporting major intellectual
`property disputes.
` And you say '96 to present, in -- on
`your CV. So can you explain why one says '96
`and the other says '95?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I assume you want me to do so.
` Q. Yes.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Thank you.
` A. The -- the reason 1995 is in there is
`that while I indicated I was doing some of this
`work part-time even when I was working as an
`employee at Canon, from 1990 to '96, for
`example, there was a case in 1995 that required
`that I testify. So I got up to a level beyond
`what some of the other work was. And not only
`did I have to testify, but I had to go spend a
`week or two in Singapore to do it.
` So basically, I burned my vacation
`time at Canon and went to Singapore and did
`that. But I thought it was -- by itself was a
`significant enough endeavor that '95 is
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 11 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`probably a better date.
` Q. Understood.
` Have you ever testified in a trial in
`District Court in the United States?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How many times, approximately?
` A. Not many. Maybe two.
` Q. What about at the ITC?
` A. Never.
` Q. Never?
` This thing -- and I'm just curious.
`This thing in Singapore, was that in the
`Singaporean court or were you there just for
`depositions and things like that?
` A. It was a Singaporean court. You had
`Monday morning to learn how their system
`differed from ours and then you had Monday
`afternoon to be cross-examined by opposing
`counsel. Interesting experience.
` Q. How did you like Singapore?
` A. I thought it was wonderful to visit
`but I would hate to live there because
`everything is so regimented. It's -- it's like
`a country that reminds you sort of Main Street
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 12 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 13
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`Disneyland or something.
` Q. Yeah. Back to your declaration.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. From -- well, back to your
`declaration also with your CV in front of you,
`so from '96 to the present, you've been working
`for Eager & Eager.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Or Eager & Eager d/b/a
`CaliforniaTechnologyExperts.com. Anything else
`other than that work, this consulting work
`since 1996?
` A. No. Perhaps -- and I probably should
`indicate that some of the work done by Eager &
`Eager was not litigation or IP disputes but
`creating IP. For example, I was continuing to
`work at Canon as a consultant for at least part
`of that period.
` Q. And what sort of stuff did you work
`on for Canon as a consultant?
` A. Developing intellectual property.
`Some of it was telecommunications based; some
`of it is what we might broadly call image
`processing, things like what came to be
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 13 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 14
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`called -- the formal name is a QR code. It's a
`little square with all the dots on it that you
`see on packages.
` Q. Sure.
` Did any of this work with Canon
`involve cellular technology?
` A. No.
` Q. Did any of it involve OFDM standards?
` A. No.
` Q. In your litigation or dispute
`consulting work, how many cases have you had
`that relate to cellular technology?
` A. I don't know. It's --
` Q. Any?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Approximately how many?
` A. That, I can't say.
` Q. More than 10?
` A. 10 would probably be a reasonable
`estimate.
` Q. How many of those involved OFDM?
` A. Probably half.
` Q. So somewhere around five?
` A. Perhaps.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 14 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 15
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. Perhaps?
` A. But again, my -- my memory of exactly
`how many and what they involved is not perfect.
` Q. So aside from your consulting work
`with Eager & Eager, what work in industry have
`you done relating to OFDM?
` A. I'm a sole inventor of a great deal
`of the technology which ultimately became OFDM.
` Q. Are these the patents that you
`reference on the second page of your CV where
`you describe your work at Telebit Corporation?
` A. It includes those patents.
` Q. There are others as well?
` A. There's other work as well.
` Q. Other work as well? Is that also
`with Telebit?
` A. Most of it. Most of it, yes.
` Q. Other than your work with Telebit,
`what work in industry have you done relating to
`OFDM?
` A. It's hard -- it's hard to say. Bits
`and pieces, but nothing as dramatic as Telebit,
`certainly.
` Q. Was this bits and pieces done before
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 15 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 16
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`or after your work at Telebit?
` A. After. The technology did not exist
`before Telebit.
` Q. So then this would have been at Canon
`Research?
` A. Some of it at Canon but, for example,
`I can recall assisting a company called
`SnapTrack that was a cellular company that was
`acquired by Qualcomm. There was other work
`like that, but it was not -- it was not intense
`make-or-break-the-company kind of work.
` Q. And when was that?
` A. I'd have to check. I would say
`roughly the year 2000, but I could be mistaken.
` Q. Do you receive any royalties on the
`patents that you developed that relate to OFDM?
` A. No.
` By the way, I believe the patents
`have probably lapsed at this point, also.
` Q. So just to be more clear, have you
`ever received royalties for use of your OFDM
`patents?
` A. They were assigned to Telebit.
` Q. So other than your work at Telebit --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 16 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 17
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- and your work at -- for
`SnapTrack --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- do you have any other experience
`in industry relating to OFDM?
` A. What -- I guess what do you mean by
`"industry"? I need to understand that better
`to answer the question.
` Q. Okay. Fair enough.
` I mean, really I'm just trying to
`distinguish it from your litigation consulting
`work.
` A. Okay. The overwhelming majority of
`work with OFDM has been litigation support in
`one way or another.
` Q. All right. Let's turn to page 4 of
`your declaration, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And specifically, I'm looking at
`paragraph 11.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you see that?
` A. I do.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 17 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 18
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. Is this a complete list of all the
`materials you reviewed during the preparation
`of your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. What else did you review?
` A. Well, I explicitly mentioned some
`additional items even in paragraph 10
`immediately above it that are not included.
` I remember the CVs of the two
`inventors of the '127 patent. I reviewed
`those. I'm pretty sure there were other
`things.
` There's -- I should indicate, though,
`that there's nothing that was deliberately
`withheld from the list in paragraph 11. 11
`is -- was intended to be a complete list, but
`checking it later, it turned out it was not a
`complete list.
` Q. Well, let's explore that a little
`bit.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So you mentioned the materials that
`you list in paragraph 10.
` A. Uh-huh.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 18 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 19
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. Correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. So that would be some additional
`materials that you reviewed beyond the
`materials listed in paragraph 11; right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And you had the CVs of the inventors,
`the named inventors; correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. You reviewed those?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Anything else that you can recall?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What?
` A. The filings of both parties in the
`IPR.
` Q. Okay. So that would be the petition?
` A. The petition, but then there were --
`there were responses and there were various
`follow-on documents filed by both you and by
`Intellectual Ventures, I believe.
` There may, of course, be other things
`that I don't recall at this point, but that's
`the top 14 or 15, whatever the number is I'm up
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 19 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 20
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`to now.
` Q. Where did you get the CVs for the
`inventors?
` A. I believe they're actually
`incorporated in one of the filings by the
`parties that I mentioned earlier, I think
`possibly by Intellectual Ventures filing with
`the Patent Office.
` Q. Okay. And do you know when those CVs
`were dated?
` A. No.
` Q. In the '127 patent, there are several
`documents that are incorporated by reference.
`Did you review any of those?
` A. I'd have to look at the '127 patent
`and those references to tell you.
` Q. So I'll hand you what's been marked
`as Exhibit 1001.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. The '127 patent.
` A. Great.
` Q. And I can direct you -- and feel free
`to take all the time you need to look at that,
`but I'll direct you to column 1 of the patent,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 20 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 21
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`which is on what's marked at the bottom page 10
`of 19.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And you'll see at the very top
`there's a section called "Cross-reference to
`Related Applications." You'll see there are a
`couple of applications there.
` A. I do see that.
` Q. And those are incorporated by
`reference.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Did you review those documents?
` A. The provisional application, no. The
`other one, at some point last year, I may have.
`I'm not sure.
` Q. Did it form the basis for any of the
`opinions that you express in your declaration?
` A. I don't believe so, no.
` Q. Let's just be clear. You said "the
`provisional application." They're both
`provisionals.
` A. Oh, I'm sorry. I meant the second
`provisional. I'm sorry, I had not looked at
`the second provisional.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 21 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 22
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. You did not look at the second
`provisional?
` A. No. The first, I may have.
` Q. But you don't recall?
` A. I don't recall. And in terms of what
`was actually in the file wrapper, it's
`difficult to be absolutely certain at this
`point.
` Q. Did you view the file wrapper?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You know you did?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When did you do that?
` A. Last year.
` Q. Last year?
` Do you rely on anything from the file
`wrapper for the opinions expressed in your
`declaration?
` A. At this point, no, I don't believe
`so.
` Q. Do you rely on anything from either
`of these provisional applications to support
`the opinions expressed in your declaration?
` A. I don't believe so, no.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 22 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. And let's turn to column 12, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. At the top, this is another document
`that is incorporated by reference, U.S. Patent
`Application, Serial Number 10/128,756.
` A. I see that.
` Q. Did you review that?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. But in any event, that document
`doesn't form the basis or support any of the
`opinions expressed in your declaration; is that
`correct?
` A. I don't believe so, no.
` Q. Okay. The file wrapper is not listed
`among the documents that you state that you
`reviewed in your declaration. Any reason for
`that?
` A. I don't believe there's a reason
`other than oversight.
` Q. Okay. Let's turn to page 5 of your
`declaration. So there are three documents in
`front of you.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Are you there?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 23 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 24
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` A. I'm there.
` Q. All right, let's look at paragraph
`14, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And there, you're talking about the
`level of one of ordinary skill in the art.
` A. I see that.
` Q. And the first bullet point reads:
`"The levels of education and experience of
`persons working in the field."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What field are you referring to?
` A. Concept and design associated with
`communications equipment, probably with a focus
`on cellular and 802.11, otherwise known as
`Wi-Fi, that type of thing.
` Q. Would the field necessarily include
`cellular technologies?
` A. There's a lot of crossover between
`different areas in the communication field.
`I'm not sure that it would -- that it would
`have to -- I would say it would be very useful
`if it included cellular and/or 802.11, called
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 24 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 25
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`Wi-Fi, and/or DSL, which isn't even a wireless
`technology but does use OFDM extensively as a
`minimum. There may be other things too.
` Q. Do you think that a person of
`ordinary skill in the art in 2001 would
`necessarily have some experience in or
`familiarity with OFDM?
` A. They might. As a minimum, I would
`expect they would have heard the term. As to
`whether they knew exactly what it meant or
`could practice in that area, I'm not sure.
` Q. So could you describe for me the
`basis that you have for understanding the level
`of ordinary skill in the art based on your
`experience at or around the time of invention
`in 2001?
` A. Could you repeat the question but
`rephrase it in some way?
` Q. Sure.
` You opine on what the person of
`ordinary skill in the art would be in 2001.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Correct?
` A. Yes.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 25 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 26
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. And I'm asking you, what makes you
`qualified to opine on that?
` A. I understand.
` I was working with people who were
`practicing the art, for example -- for example,
`cellular. I was -- I was exposed to and
`talking with people who dealt with groups of
`people that were developing products or
`technologies, I would have to say both the
`direct experience as well as litigation, but
`also meeting with both people that were
`practicing the art and people that were
`supervising them. And I -- I would say those
`are the things that contributed to that.
` Q. And when you say "practicing the
`art," what is the art that you're referring to?
` A. You -- well, for example, using OF --
`OFDM or -- for communications or just
`practicing other forms of communications
`technology.
` Q. Anything else?
` A. I would have to say just discussions
`with my son and some of his friends who were
`essentially at that level at that time.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 26 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 27
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` In other words, they were making a
`living doing communications, and they had a
`master's, a recognized master's degree in
`electrical engineering, and they had perhaps
`five years of -- or maybe even a little bit
`more, six or seven years of experience in the
`field.
` Q. Your son and his friends, were they
`working on OFDM technology at the time? By the
`time, I mean 2001 or thereabouts.
` A. They were certainly interested in
`OFDM, and we had discussions about it. I'm not
`sure exactly what they were working on then.
` Q. Do you believe that you were a person
`of ordinary skill in the art relating to this
`technology of the '127 patent in 2001?
` A. I would say these people were people
`of ordinary skill in the art. In fact, they
`might even have had a little more skill than
`the average person.
` Q. Do you believe that you were a person
`of ordinary skill in the art in a relevant
`field in 2001?
` A. I'm sorry, do I believe that --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 27 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 28
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` Q. You were a person of ordinary skill
`in the art in --
` A. Oh, that I was?
` Q. -- 2001, yeah.
` A. At least, yes. I believe so.
` Q. Do you think you were a person of
`ordinary skill in the art of OFDM technology in
`2001?
` A. As a minimum yes.
` Q. Do you think you were an expert in
`the field of OFDM in 2001?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that is based on what, exactly?
` A. At that period of time, in addition
`to what I'm describing with cellular companies
`and contact and cases that I was not disclosed
`on, I was a testifying expert on OFDM matters
`in major intellectual property disputes in
`federal court.
` Q. In 2001 or before?
` A. The most major one I think was about
`two, two or three years after that, but yes.
` Q. Do you recall the parties to that
`dispute?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 28 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 29
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
` A. Yes.
` Q. Who?
` A. Globespan Virata, and I was -- I was
`an expert for them. They later were acquired,
`or perhaps during the litigation, by Conexant,
`and they were -- had filed litigation against
`Texas Instruments and Stanford University. I
`think those were the only two defendants.
` Q. And that case related to OFDM
`technology?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Just as an aside, a few minutes ago
`you asked me to rephrase my question. Thank
`you for doing that. If my question's ever not
`clear, please let me know and I'll be glad to
`rephrase it.
` A. Okay, great. Thank you. Sure.
` Q. Because I want to make sure you
`understand my questions.
` A. That we understand the same meaning
`before I answer.
` Q. Yes, sir.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. So let's go to page 7 of your
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 29 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 30
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`declaration, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And looking at paragraph 19, I'm
`going to stay on the topic of the person of
`ordinary skill in the art. All right?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Would a person of ordinary skill in
`the art have been familiar with inverse
`discrete Fourier transforms in 2001?
` A. I believe they certainly would have,
`yes.
` Q. Would they have been familiar with
`converting a block of samples from frequency
`domain to the time domain using an inverse
`discrete Fourier transform?
` A. Yes, they would have.
` Q. Would one of ordinary skill in the
`art at the time have been familiar with pilot
`symbols in OFDM systems?
` A. That, I'm not so sure of.
` Q. Why not?
` A. FFTs, inverse and otherwise, are part
`of signal processing, and I think anybody in
`that particular venue at that time would have
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 30 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 31
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`been familiar with that.
` As to specifically how
`synchronization is obtained or maintained,
`otherwise known as tracking, and the use of
`pilots, that tends to get it down to individual
`technologies. And to have said that they would
`have known how a specific or individual
`technology did this, or all the different ways
`they did it, would be a stretch. I don't think
`I could say that.
` Q. Was it known in the art in 2001 that
`certain OFDM technologies used pilot symbols?
` MR. PICKARD: Object, outside the
` scope.
` A. I guess what -- I wonder if you could
`focus the question a little bit on what exactly
`you mean by "the art."
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Well, what -- let's just go by
`whatever you consider the art to be. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Well, let me back up.
` In paragraph 19, you define what you
`believe the level of ordinary skill in the art
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 31 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 32
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` D. Hartogs
`would be; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would that person have known in 2001
`of the concept of using pilot symbols in OFDM
`systems?
` A. I believe they would have known that
`OFDM, like all communication systems, almost
`certainly had some way of establishing and
`maintaining synchronization. I'm not sure that
`they would have known how that was done.
` Q. Okay. Did you know about pilot
`symbols in OFDM technology in 2001?
` A. Did I personally know?
` Q. Sure.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Just generally --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- the idea of using pilot symbols in
`OFDM systems was known to people like you back
`in 2001.
` MR. PICKARD: Object to form. And
` if you could just phrase it as a
` question, that would be helpful.
` THE WITNESS: Could you --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`ERIC-1034
`Page 32 of 210
`
`

`
`Page 33
`
`1
`
`

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket