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`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`_________________________________
`ERICSSON INC. and )
`TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON, ) CASE IPR2014-01185
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` VS. )
` )
`INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
`
` ORAL AND TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF
` ZYGMUNT J. HAAS, Ph.D.
` SEPTEMBER 4, 2015
`
` ORAL AND TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF ZYGMUNT J. HAAS,
`Ph.D., produced as a witness at the instance of the Patent
`Owner, taken in the above-styled and -numbered cause on the
`4th day of September, 2015, A.D., beginning at 9:19 a.m. to
`11:22 a.m., before Kelly Hassell, RPR, CLR, CSR, in and for
`the State of Texas, in the offices of Haynes and Boone,
`LLP, located at 2505 North Plano Road, Suite 4000,
`Richardson, Texas, in accordance with the Federal Rules of
`Civil Procedure and the agreement hereinafter set forth.
`
`---------------------------------------------------
` DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
` 1726 M Street NW, Suite 1010
` Washington, DC 20036
` (202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2014-01185
`
`
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`_________________________________
`ERICSSON INC. and )
`TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON, ) CASE IPR2014-01185
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` VS. )
` )
`INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
`
` ORAL AND TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF
` ZYGMUNT J. HAAS, Ph.D.
` SEPTEMBER 4, 2015
`
` ORAL AND TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF ZYGMUNT J. HAAS,
`Ph.D., produced as a witness at the instance of the Patent
`Owner, taken in the above-styled and -numbered cause on the
`4th day of September, 2015, A.D., beginning at 9:19 a.m. to
`11:22 a.m., before Kelly Hassell, RPR, CLR, CSR, in and for
`the State of Texas, in the offices of Haynes and Boone,
`LLP, located at 2505 North Plano Road, Suite 4000,
`Richardson, Texas, in accordance with the Federal Rules of
`Civil Procedure and the agreement hereinafter set forth.
`
`---------------------------------------------------
` DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
` 1726 M Street NW, Suite 1010
` Washington, DC 20036
` (202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2014-01185
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 2
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
` MR. JOHN RUSSELL EMERSON
` Haynes and Boone, LLP
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Suite 700
` Dallas, Texas 75219
` (214) 651-5000
` russell.emerson.ipr@haynesboone.com
` and
` MR. J. ANDREW LOWES
` Haynes and Boone, LLP
` 2505 North Plano Road
` Suite 4000
` Richardson, Texas 75082
` (972) 739-6969
` andrew.lowes.ipr@haynesboone.com
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` MS. LORI A. GORDON
` MR. STEVEN W. PETERS, Ph.D.
` Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein & Fox
` 1100 New York Avenue, Northwest
` Suite 600
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` (202) 371-2600
` (202) 371-2540 (Fax)
` lgordon@skgf.com
` speters@skgf.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` MR. JAMES HIETALA - Intellectual Ventures II LLC
` (Via phone.)
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`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
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`Zygmunt J. Haas
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` I N D E X
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`Page 3
`
`Direct Examination by Ms. Gordon.................. Page 4
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` EXHIBITS
`
`EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent Number 7,269,127 4
`
`Exhibit 1035 Mody Provisional 49
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`Exhibit 1036 "Supplemental Declaration of 4
` Zygmunt J. Haas, Ph.D. Under
` 37 C.F.R. 1.68 on Behalf
` of Petitioner"
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`Page 4
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` ZYGMUNT J. HAAS, Ph.D.,
`having been first duly cautioned and sworn to testify the
`truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, testified
`on his oath as follows:
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`BY MS. GORDON:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Haas.
` A Good morning, ma'am.
` Q I'm going to hand you a few documents that we're
`going to be referring to today in your deposition. So the
`first document I'm going to hand you has been marked as
`Ericsson 1036. I'm going to hand a copy to your attorney.
` (Exhibit 1036 marked.)
` Q (BY MS. GORDON) Do you recognize this document?
` A Yes. This is my supplemental declaration.
` Q Okay. And I'm going to hand you another
`document, and this document has been marked Exhibit 1001 to
`this proceeding. It's U.S. Patent Number 7,269,127.
` (Exhibit 1001 marked.)
` Q (BY MS. GORDON) Do you recognize this document?
` A Yes, I do.
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`Page 5
` Q So we'll be referring to both of these documents
`throughout the morning.
` Dr. Haas, did you do anything to prepare for
`today's deposition?
` A Yes. So first of all, I reviewed my supplemental
`declaration. I also reviewed the '127 patent. When I say
`"reviewed," I mean reviewed again. Of course, I reviewed
`many times before.
` I also reviewed some of the prior art which
`is cited in my supplemental declaration. I reviewed
`additional documents, some of which I listed in my
`supplemental declaration. And I also met with counsel.
` Q Okay. And you mentioned the documents listed in
`your supplemental declaration. Is that Paragraph 2 you're
`referring to?
` A Yes. Those are some of the documents which I
`reviewed -- re-reviewed for today's deposition.
` Q In your answer, you referred to some prior art
`documents. Were those the Number 2, Schmidl, and Number 3,
`Arslan documents that are listed in Paragraph Number 2?
` A And Number 4, the Mody Provisional --
` Q Okay.
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`Page 6
` A -- which -- which -- right. It may not be prior
`to -- I also reviewed the Mody Provisional.
` Q Okay. I understand.
` So the applied prior art you reviewed was
`Schmidl and Arslan; is that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And you also reviewed the Mody Provisional?
` A Among other things.
` Q Okay. All right. So if we look at that
`Paragraph Number 2 from your declaration, in the listing of
`documents, you list Number 5, the excerpts from the
`declaration of Dirk Hartogs. Did you review the entire
`declaration of Dirk Hartogs?
` A For the preparation for today's deposition?
` Q For -- in preparation of your declaration.
` A If I remember correctly, for the preparation of
`the supplemental declaration, I reviewed portions of
`Dr. Hartogs' declaration.
` Q And what portions of his declaration did you
`review?
` A Again, you're referring only for the --
` Q In preparation of your declaration.
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`Page 7
` A I reviewed those portions that were provided by
`Ericsson's counsel.
` Q And what portions --
` A Counsel for Ericsson.
` Q And what portions did they provide?
` A Well, those -- some of those I listed in Appendix
`A here. Let me find Appendix A. Appendix A here
`(indicating), these are portions of Dr. Hartogs'
`declaration which I reviewed in preparation of the
`supplemental declaration.
` Q And are these the only portions of Dr. Hartogs'
`declaration you reviewed in preparation of your
`supplemental declaration?
` A I might have reviewed other portions. I don't
`recall right now.
` Q Okay. But counsel for Ericsson provided the
`portions that you reviewed; is that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And in Paragraph Number 2, you have Item
`Number 6.
` A Yes.
` Q And in this item, you say, "Excerpts from the
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`Zygmunt J. Haas
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`Page 8
`deposition of Dr. Hartogs provided by counsel for Ericsson
`cited herein."
` Did you review in preparation for your
`supplemental declaration the entire deposition transcript
`of Dr. Hartogs?
` A Not in preparation for the supplemental
`declaration.
` Q Okay. And what excerpts did you review of the
`deposition transcript in preparation of your supplemental
`declaration?
` A In preparation of the supplemental declaration, I
`reviewed those excerpts that were provided by counsel for
`Ericsson.
` Q And what excerpts did they provide to you?
` A So those are evident throughout the supplemental
`declaration. For example, if you look at Paragraph 5,
`the -- several such excerpts. If you look at Paragraph 8,
`there's some additional excerpts. So those are -- in
`Paragraph 10, additional excerpts. So those are examples
`of excerpts that were provided by counsel for Ericsson.
` Q Well, other than the excerpts that are cited in
`your supplemental declaration, did you review any
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`Zygmunt J. Haas
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`Page 9
`additional excerpts from the deposition transcript of
`Dr. Hartogs in preparation for your supplemental
`declaration?
` A So I think you asked me this question before. I
`said, if I remember correctly, now in preparation for the
`supplemental declaration.
` Q So let me re-ask the question because --
` A Sure.
` Q -- there -- there was the excerpts from the
`declaration, and now we're asking about the excerpts from
`the deposition transcript.
` A Yes.
` Q And I believe you testified that the excerpts you
`reviewed are provided as cites within your supplemental
`declaration, correct?
` A I'm sorry. Can you please repeat?
` Q Sure. I believe you testified that the excerpts
`you reviewed from Dr. Hartogs' deposition transcript are
`provided as cites within your supplemental declaration,
`correct?
` A Right. Those -- those excerpts from the
`deposition which I provided in my supplemental declarations
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`Zygmunt J. Haas
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`Page 10
`were provided by counsel for Ericsson -- for Ericsson.
` Q And my question was just whether you were
`provided and reviewed any other excerpts from Dr. Hartogs'
`deposition transcript in preparation for your declaration
`other than the ones that you have cited.
` A So other than the ones they cited, again, for
`preparation for the supplemental declaration, I do not
`recall right now reviewing other portions of Dr. Hartogs'
`deposition.
` Q Okay. Thank you.
` And going back to Paragraph Number 2, you
`have a list of six items. Did you review Patent Owner's
`response in preparation for your supplemental declaration?
` A Not in preparation for my supplemental
`declaration.
` Q Okay. All right. And in preparation of your --
` A Again, that's based on my recollection. I just
`want to make sure.
` Q Okay. I understand. Thank you for clarifying.
` Did you review Petitioner's reply in
`preparation of your supplemental declaration?
` A Again, based on my current recollection as I sit
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`Zygmunt J. Haas
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`Page 11
`here right now, in preparation for the supplemental
`declaration, I did not review the response.
` Q And when you say --
` A The reply. I'm sorry.
` Q Petitioner's reply?
` A Petitioner's reply, correct.
` Q Okay. So I would like to turn to Paragraph 4 of
`your declaration.
` A Yes.
` Q All right. And in this paragraph, you state,
`"Patent Owner's expert, Dr. Hartogs, interprets the claim
`term 'insert pilot symbols into data blocks' as 'insert
`pilot symbols into at least one data block.'"
` Do you see that statement?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And there's quotations around "insert pilot
`symbols into at least one data block," correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Is this a direct quote from Dr. Hartogs'
`declaration?
` A So I would have to go back.
` As I remember right now, I do not believe
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`Page 12
`that this is a direct -- direct quotation, but I think
`it -- it was put in quotes to -- to -- to sort of explain
`that this is as Dr. Hartogs' -- Dr. Hartogs' interpret --
`interprets the insert pilot symbols into data blocks at
`this time. So Dr. Hartogs does state in his declaration
`that it's -- it's evident later in this paragraph, "The
`pilot symbols are frequency domain symbols inserted into a
`data block" -- block, again, I emphasize in singular -- "in
`the" -- I continue to quote -- "in the frequency domain."
`And this is from his declaration, Paragraph 41.
` So my explanation of his statement is that
`he interprets the claim insert pilot symbols into data
`blocks as -- as insert pilot symbols into at least one date
`block. Again, the quotes, I don't think the quotes are put
`here to signify that this is a direct quotation from his
`saying, but rather it's this term -- claim term, "insert
`pilot symbols into data blocks," is interpreted by him as
`this other what's put in the quotes.
` Q Okay. Thank you.
` And in the second sentence in that
`paragraph, you state that, "Dr. Hartogs asserts that the
`claim requires that pilot symbols be inserted into a
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`Page 13
`discrete data block, not into," and in parentheses you
`have, "or among," close parentheses, "a set of data
`blocks."
` Is it your contention then that the claim
`term "insert pilot symbols into data blocks" means insert
`pilot symbols into or among a set of data blocks?
` A The -- the sentence clearly states -- I'm
`sorry -- simply states that Dr. Hartogs seems to assert or
`asserts that -- that the pilot symbols are inserted into a
`discrete data block, one data block, and not among -- or
`not among a set of data blocks. That's what it states.
` Q And why did you put that second phrase into that
`sentence, "not into or among a set of data blocks"?
` A Because this is how I believe is being disclosed
`in the specification of the '127 patent is that the pilot
`symbols are inserted into or among a set of data blocks.
` Q Okay. So if we turn to Claim 1 of the '127
`patent, which you'll find on Column 16 --
` A Yes.
` Q -- if you look at Claim 1, which starts at
`Line 51 about, the encoder element starts at 54 and it
`says, "An encoder having a pilot/training symbol inserter,
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`Page 14
`the pilot/training symbol inserter configured to insert
`pilot symbols into data blocks."
` Does that claim element use the word
`"among"?
` A The language of the claim does not use the word
`"among," but as I was saying before, reading the
`specification, the specification only discloses that pilot
`symbols are inserted among -- into or among a set of data
`blocks.
` Q All right. But the claim only recites into data
`blocks, correct?
` A The language of the claim says, you know, as
`read, "Insert pilot symbols into data blocks."
` But as I was saying, again, if you read the
`'127 patent, the -- one of ordinary skill in the art
`would -- understood that the insertion of the pilot symbols
`into data blocks means insert pilot symbols among a set of
`data blocks.
` Q Okay. And you keep using the word "set of data
`blocks." If you refer back to Claim 1, does Claim 1 use
`the language "set of data blocks"?
` A It says "into data blocks." The Claim 1 says --
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`Page 15
`uses the language "into data blocks." But again, the
`meaning of the way that the insertion is being done
`throughout the specification of the '127 patent is that
`those pilot symbols are inserted among a set of data
`blocks.
` Q So let's turn to Paragraph 14.
` A Of my declaration?
` Q Of your declaration.
` MS. GORDON: Excuse me.
` THE WITNESS: Bless you.
` Q (BY MS. GORDON) And in Paragraph 14, you have a
`block quote from the '127 patent, correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q In the first sentence after that block quote, you
`say, "Training symbols are used for initial synchronization
`at the beginning of a transmission."
` Do you see that?
` A That's correct.
` Q And why are training symbols used at the
`beginning of a transmission?
` A Well, as being, of course, stated in the -- in
`this quote that I, you know, put here (indicating) from the
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
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`202-232-0646
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`9/4/2015
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`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
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`Page 16
`'127 patent, the -- the training symbols which are embedded
`in the preambles which are -- which are in the preambles --
`let me be more precise. Let me repeat it.
` Training symbols which are in the preambles
`are used to synchronize the transmission of this particular
`frame that I put in. So therefore, the training symbols
`are used for each synchronization of this frame -- of this
`particular frame in which they -- I included.
` Q What is initial synchronization of a frame?
` A So you asked me this question in my previous
`deposition, but if you have a frame, you send a frame and
`this frame, you know, is being sent.
` At the beginning of the frame, there may not
`be any synchronization or there may not be sufficient
`synchronization between the transmitter or the receiver.
`So as the frame is being transmitted, the training symbols
`in the preamble allows for this frame to be -- to be
`synchronized -- each synchronized at the beginning of the
`transmission of the frame.
` Q Okay. And in this same paragraph of your
`supplemental declaration, Paragraph 14 --
` A Yes.
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
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`202-232-0646
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`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 17
` Q -- a few lines later, you state, "Whereas
`periodic calibration after initial synchronization as few
`as one pilot symbol in the time domain," and then in
`parentheses, you say, "from multiple pilot symbols in the
`frequency domain may be used for periodic calibration."
` A Yes.
` Q Do you see that statement?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q In this sentence, you're using the term "pilot
`symbol" to refer to both the time and the frequency domain;
`is that correct?
` A I'm not sure what your question is, but I mean,
`it's sort of clearly stated here, as few as one pilot
`symbols in time domain could be used for periodic
`calibration after this initial calibration. Those -- this
`one pilot symbol in time domain, they come, so to speak, if
`you -- if I may use this language, they come from multiple
`pilot symbols in frequency domain.
` Q Okay. So you're using the term "pilot symbol" --
` A I'm sorry. They can come. I said "they come."
`They can come from multiple symbols -- multiple pilot
`symbols in frequency domain. I'm sorry.
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 18
` Q Okay. So in this statement, you are using the
`term "pilot symbol" in both the time and frequency domain,
`correct?
` A That's correct.
` The -- the -- usually what's transmitted,
`it's always transmitted in time domain, but the content of
`this transmission includes, you know, frequency domain.
`So -- so what's explained here is that one pilot -- as few
`as one pilot symbols in time domain and the content of this
`one pilot symbols in time domain can come from multiple
`pilots in frequency domain.
` Q So I'd like to turn --
` A Multiple pilot symbols. Multiple pilot symbols
`in frequency domain.
` Q Thank you.
` So can we turn back to your Paragraph 8,
`which is on Page 4 of your supplemental declaration.
` A 8, yes.
` Q And in this paragraph, you state, "Dr. Hartogs
`explains that it is conceivable that during transmission of
`data blocks, an entire block in the frequency domain could
`be filled with pilots, but he would call the resulting time
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 19
`
`domain symbol a training symbol."
` Do you see that statement?
` A I see the statement in Paragraph 8, yes.
` Q Okay. And do you disagree with Dr. Hartogs'
`opinion?
` A In what respect? I mean, I'm not sure. You ask
`me -- you said "disagree with," but you didn't say what I
`disagree with.
` Q So we read Dr. Hartogs' opinion here that -- you
`stated that, "He explains it is conceivable that during
`transmission of data blocks, an entire block in the
`frequency domain could be filled with pilots, but he would
`call the resulting time domain symbol a training symbol."
` So do you disagree first with Dr. Hartogs
`that an entire block in the frequency domain could be
`filled with pilots?
` A No. I think it's -- it's possible that an entire
`block in frequency domain could be filled with -- with
`pilots.
` Q Okay. And do you disagree then with Dr. Hartogs
`that if an entire block in the frequency domain was filled
`with pilots, you would call the resulting time symbol a
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 20
`
`training symbol?
` A Okay. I'm sorry. I need to clarify my previous
`answer. When I say it is entirely possible, I mean -- what
`I meant to say, it is -- a block in frequency domain could
`be filled with pilots. That's what I meant.
` Q Okay.
` A And now you asked me -- the second question was
`do I agree or disagree with Dr. Hartogs that the resulting
`time domain symbol would be at -- would be a training
`symbol.
` Q Correct, that's what --
` A I would say that that's -- that's not accurate.
` Q Okay. And why would you say that's not accurate?
` A Because -- because if you look at his response,
`his response says, "Obviously" -- and I'm quoting from the
`same paragraph in my declaration, and this is his answer to
`the question that he was asked -- "Obviously if you get to
`the point where you have the entire block filled with
`pilots, then it really has just become another training
`symbol and you probably have enough information to just
`reinitialize your transmission."
` I think that this, in the context of what we
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 21
`said -- of what he says, I would disagree with -- with --
`with his statement.
` Q All right. So let's break that down.
` You say you disagree with the statement in
`his answer here?
` A Right. Then it really -- that it really has just
`become another training symbol and you probably have enough
`information to just reinitialize your transmission.
` Q And what piece of that statement do you disagree
`with?
` A I think what he's -- the way that I understand
`what he's saying here -- and again, you know, that's my
`understanding of what he's saying here is that he's saying
`if you have a block filled with pilots, then this will
`justify you to reinitialize your transmission, and I don't
`think that that's correct.
` And I would -- I guess what -- the way that
`I understand it is that he's saying if you have a block of
`pilots, entire block filled with pilots, then you can start
`a new frame, and I don't think that that's correct.
` Q And why don't you think that's correct?
` A Because starting a new frame involves much more
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 22
`than just having an entire block filled with pilots.
` Q Okay. And what more, in your opinion, would you
`require?
` A Well, a frame is -- you know, involves presumably
`much more than just, you know, just training symbols.
`The -- one such example would be the fact that -- that even
`as disclosed in the '127 patent, the preambles have certain
`functions that are more than just a simple pilot would
`have. So just because you have a pilot somewhere, you have
`a block of pilots, this doesn't mean that you -- you have
`the functionality of the whole preamble. To start a new
`frame, you really need to have the whole preamble.
` Q Okay. And is that the only basis for your
`disagreement with Dr. Hartogs' statement?
` A Well, that's -- you know, right now what I said
`here, I didn't think about it. There may be other reasons
`that I have to think about more why I disagree.
` Q Okay. So just going back to Dr. Hartogs'
`statement, why specifically, though, do you disagree that
`the resulting time domain symbol would not be called a
`training symbol?
` A The -- you know, as I mentioned before, my
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 23
`disagreement comes from this whole statement, not from just
`taking, you know, one part of the statement. This whole
`statement says that if you have an entire block filled with
`pilots, then it really became just another training symbol
`and you have probably enough information to initialize your
`transmission.
` What I'm saying in my understanding, to
`reinitialize transmission -- which my understanding, his
`reference was to starting a new frame. That's how I
`interpreted -- interpret his words. To start a new frame,
`you need more than just a pilot.
` Q But in that phrase, he said "probably," correct?
` A Yeah, probably, which -- which indicates that
`that's what you have, probably.
` Q All right. So if we just, you know, cut that
`piece off and focus on his first point, which is what you
`referred to in Paragraph 8 in the first sentence where he
`says, where you fill the entire block with pilots, then
`it really has just become another training symbol, do you
`disagree with that part of Dr. Hartogs' statement?
` A I would need to understand more what he really
`means, just become another training symbol.
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 24
` I -- when I said I disagree with his
`statement, I disagree with the whole statement and his
`conclusion that you have enough information to re- -- just
`reinitialize your transmission. I would have to understand
`much more what he meant by just become another training
`symbol. It's not really very clear to me.
` Q Okay. So sitting here today, you don't have an
`opinion one way or the other regarding Dr. Hartogs'
`statement that he would call the resulting -- let me ask
`that again.
` So sitting here today, you do not have an
`opinion one way or the other regarding Dr. Hartogs'
`statement that if you fill the entire block with pilots,
`then it has become just another training symbol, correct?
` A The -- you see, the reason that it's confusing
`what he said, one reason -- I assume there may be more --
`is if you look at Column 7 of the '127 patent, it says
`here, "Moreover" -- I'm sorry -- in Line -- in Line 47, it
`says, "Moreover, different sets of training symbols and of
`pilot blocks may be provided by the pilot training symbol
`inserter depending on the operating criteria of the
`communication system (10), which may be determined by the
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 25
`
`user."
` From which I -- from which I read, the
`training symbols and on-pilot symbols, there may be
`different sets of those. So his opinion that if you take a
`block of pilots, then this automatically becomes a training
`symbol, this requires much more explanation of how -- what
`is the content of the pilot symbols and what is the content
`of the training symbols to make such -- to make such a
`conclusion. And this is why I am reluctant to agree with
`him or disagree with him at this point, because I don't
`have enough information of how the system is built in terms
`of what is the content of the pilots and what is the
`content of the training symbols.
` Q All right. Thank you.
` Can we turn to Paragraph Number 9 of your
`declaration --
` A Sure.
` Q -- which is on the next page --
` A Sure.
` Q -- Page 5. And in this paragraph, you provide a
`quote from Column 11 of the '127 patent. And in that
`quote, it has the statement, "Pilot symbols may also be
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2015
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`9/4/2015
`
`Ericsson Inc., et al. v. Intellectual Ventures I LLC
`
`Zygmunt J. Haas
`
`Page 26
`intermittently inserted into the data symbols (80) by the
`pilot/training symbol inserter (46)."
` Do you see tha
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