1:1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`1:2 ________________________
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`1:3 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`1:4 ________________________
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`1:5 GOOGLE, INC.,
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`1:6 Petitioner,
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`1:7 v.
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`1:8 VEDANTI SYSTEMS LIMITED,
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`1:9 Patent Owner.
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`1:10 Case IPR2016-00212
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`1:11 Patent 7,974,339 B2
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`1:12 ________________________
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`1:13
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`1:14
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`1:15
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`1:16
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`1:17
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`1:18 Pages 1 - 133
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`1:19 Job No.: 2465177
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`1:20 Veritext Legal Solutions
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` Mid-Atlantic Region
`
` 1250 Eye Street NW - Suite 350
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`1:21 Washington, D.C. 20005
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`1:22
`
`Google Inc.
`GOOG 1034
`IPR2016-00212
`
`0001
`
`
`
`1:2 ________________________
`
`1:3 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1:4 ________________________
`
`1:5 GOOGLE, INC.,
`
`1:6 Petitioner,
`
`1:7 v.
`
`1:8 VEDANTI SYSTEMS LIMITED,
`
`1:9 Patent Owner.
`
`1:10 Case IPR2016-00212
`
`1:11 Patent 7,974,339 B2
`
`1:12 ________________________
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`1:13
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`1:14
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`1:15
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`1:16
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`1:17
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`1:18 Pages 1 - 133
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`1:19 Job No.: 2465177
`
`1:20 Veritext Legal Solutions
`
` Mid-Atlantic Region
`
` 1250 Eye Street NW - Suite 350
`
`1:21 Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`1:22
`
`Google Inc.
`GOOG 1034
`IPR2016-00212
`
`0001
`
`
`
`2:1 A P P E A R A N C E S
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`2:2 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`2:3 MICHAEL V. MESSINGER, ESQUIRE
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`2:4 BRIAN LEE, ESQUIRE
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`2:5 Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein & Fox P.L.L.C.
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`2:6 1100 New York Avenue, Northwest
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`2:7 Washington, DC 20005-3934
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`2:8 202-371-2600
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`2:9 mikem@skgf.com
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`2:10 blee@skgf.com
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`2:11 ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
`
`2:12 ROBERT M. ASHER, ESQUIRE
`
`2:13 Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers LLP
`
`2:14 125 Summer Street
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`2:15 Boston, Massachusetts 07110-1618
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`2:16 617-443-9292
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`2:17 rasher@sunsteinlaw.com
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`2:18
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`2:19 ALSO PRESENT:
`
`2:20 Dan J. Bernard
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`2:21
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`2:22
`
` Veritext Legal Solutions
`
` Mid-Atlantic Region
`
` 1250 Eye Street NW - Suite 350
`
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`0002
`
`
`
`3:1 October 26, 2016
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`3:2 C O N T E N T S
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`3:3 EXAMINATION OF OMID E. KIA, Ph.D. PAGE
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`3:4 By MR. MESSINGER 4, 124, 128
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`3:5 By MR. ASHER 126
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`3:6
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`3:7 E X H I B I T S
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`3:8 EXHIBIT PAGE
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`3:9 2001 copy of Kia declaration, 42 8
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`3:10 pages
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`3:11 2002 previously marked 17
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`3:12 1001 previously marked 33
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`3:13 1005 previously marked 70
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`3:14 1006 previously marked 82
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`3:15 1007 previously marked 95
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`3:16
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`3:17
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`3:18
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`3:19
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`3:20
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`3:21
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`3:22
`
`0003
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`
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`4:1 P R O C E E D I N G S
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`4:2 Whereupon,
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`4:3 OMID E. KIA, Ph.D.,
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`4:4 called as a witness, having been first duly
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`4:5 sworn by the Notary Public (Amy E.
`
`4:6 Sikora-Trapp), was examined and testified as
`
`4:7 follows:
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`4:8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL
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`4:9 FOR THE PETITIONER
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`4:10 BY MR. MESSINGER:
`
`4:11 Q. Good morning. Can you state
`
`4:12 your full name for the record?
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`4:13 A. Good morning, sir. My full
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`4:14 name is Omid Ebrahimi Kia.
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`4:15 Q. I'm Michael Messinger
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`4:16 representing Petitioner Google, Inc., in
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`4:17 this proceeding.
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`4:18 Do you understand that you're
`
`4:19 here to have your deposition taken in
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`4:20 inter partes review of US patent 7,974,339?
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`4:21 A. I can agree to almost
`
`4:22 everything, except I do not memorize the
`
`0004
`
`
`
`5:1 number.
`
`5:2 Q. Okay.
`
`5:3 A. So for you, if you had said
`
`5:4 that that's the case, yes, I'm here for
`
`5:5 that.
`
`5:6 Q. Okay. And this is the '339
`
`5:7 patent that you prepared a declaration for?
`
`5:8 A. That's correct.
`
`5:9 Q. Correct. And do you
`
`5:10 understand you're testifying under oath?
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`5:11 A. Yes, I do.
`
`5:12 Q. And as part of that oath you
`
`5:13 must testify fully and accurately to the
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`5:14 best of your knowledge?
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`5:15 A. Yes, I do
`
`5:16 Q. And if you don't understand
`
`5:17 one of my questions, just ask me to rephrase
`
`5:18 it. I'd be happy to rephrase it so it's
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`5:19 more clear for you.
`
`5:20 A. Yes, sir.
`
`5:21 Q. I'll try to take a break
`
`5:22 periodically, but if you need a break at any
`
`0005
`
`
`
`6:1 time during today, will you please let me
`
`6:2 know?
`
`6:3 A. Yes, sir.
`
`6:4 Q. All right. And is there
`
`6:5 anything that might be interfering with your
`
`6:6 ability to testify truthfully and completely
`
`6:7 today?
`
`6:8 A. Not that I know of.
`
`6:9 Q. Any medication that you're on
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`6:10 or anything like that?
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`6:11 A. No.
`
`6:12 Q. Is there any reason that you
`
`6:13 cannot give a full and accurate testimony
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`6:14 today?
`
`6:15 A. Not that I know of.
`
`6:16 Q. Okay, terrific. Thank you.
`
`6:17 Well, let's go ahead and get started.
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`6:18 How did you prepare for
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`6:19 today's deposition?
`
`6:20 A. I had a good night rest.
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`6:21 Q. Did you meet with any other
`
`6:22 people in preparation for the deposition?
`
`0006
`
`
`
`7:1 A. I met with Mr. Asher
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`7:2 yesterday.
`
`7:3 Q. Okay, yesterday. And about
`
`7:4 for how long?
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`7:5 A. I don't recall. Started in
`
`7:6 the morning and ended early afternoon, I
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`7:7 believe.
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`7:8 Q. And do you recall what
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`7:9 documents you reviewed?
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`7:10 A. Not really. I know at least I
`
`7:11 reviewed my declaration.
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`7:12 Q. Anything else other than your
`
`7:13 declaration?
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`7:14 A. I don't recall.
`
`7:15 Q. And this was yesterday?
`
`7:16 A. Yesterday, yes.
`
`7:17 Q. But you don't recall what
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`7:18 documents you looked at yesterday?
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`7:19 A. No.
`
`7:20 Q. Did you meet with any other
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`7:21 people before then?
`
`7:22 A. No.
`
`0007
`
`
`
`8:1 Q. I'm handing a copy of
`
`8:2 Exhibit 2001, your declaration.
`
`8:3 (Exhibit Number 2001, copy of
`
`8:4 Kia declaration, 42 pages, marked
`
`8:5 for identification as of this date.)
`
`8:6 MR. MESSINGER: Just for the
`
`8:7 court reporter, I'd like to note, this is
`
`8:8 Exhibit 2001 in the proceeding. It's not
`
`8:9 marked on the front page of this one.
`
`8:10 However, this is the copy that's in the
`
`8:11 proceeding.
`
`8:12 Q. Do you see the declaration,
`
`8:13 Exhibit 2001, before you?
`
`8:14 A. Yes, I do.
`
`8:15 Q. Okay. Can you look at the
`
`8:16 last page?
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`8:17 A. Yes, sir.
`
`8:18 Q. Do you see your signature
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`8:19 there and date?
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`8:20 A. Yes, I do.
`
`8:21 Q. Is this a copy of the
`
`8:22 declaration that you submitted in this
`
`0008
`
`
`
`9:1 proceeding?
`
`9:2 A. It seems from the -- the face
`
`9:3 value that it is.
`
`9:4 Q. So can you tell me about the
`
`9:5 drafting process and how you prepared this
`
`9:6 declaration?
`
`9:7 A. I wrote the declaration. It
`
`9:8 was used as a topic of conversation with
`
`9:9 counsel, but it was always under my control.
`
`9:10 Q. So how was the first draft
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`9:11 prepared of your declaration?
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`9:12 A. As an outline, pretty much
`
`9:13 with the heading.
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`9:14 Q. Was that your writing or was
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`9:15 it the attorney's writing?
`
`9:16 A. I believe it was my writing.
`
`9:17 Q. Is that your usual practice,
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`9:18 to write the first draft yourself?
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`9:19 A. I'm sorry, repeat the
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`9:20 question, please.
`
`9:21 Q. Is that your usual practice,
`
`9:22 to write the first draft outline yourself?
`
`0009
`
`
`
`10:1 A. It depends. So I also do a
`
`10:2 lot of work as a consulting expert. So
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`10:3 another expert might write it and I would
`
`10:4 provide an opinion.
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`10:5 Q. And in this proceeding your
`
`10:6 testimony is that you wrote the first draft
`
`10:7 yourself?
`
`10:8 A. From what I remember, yes.
`
`10:9 Q. And is that the entire
`
`10:10 declaration yourself, you wrote?
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`10:11 A. Yes.
`
`10:12 Q. Did you discuss this with
`
`10:13 counsel?
`
`10:14 A. Yes.
`
`10:15 Q. And did counsel give you
`
`10:16 feedback or edits to the declaration?
`
`10:17 A. There was a number of
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`10:18 exchanges.
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`10:19 Q. And the exchanges you refer
`
`10:20 to, did they lead to changes in the draft in
`
`10:21 the declaration?
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`10:22 A. These -- these exchanges
`
`0010
`
`
`
`11:1 resulted in me editing the declaration, yes.
`
`11:2 Q. Okay. And the edits you made
`
`11:3 were based on input from counsel to the
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`11:4 draft declaration?
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`11:5 A. Whatever I wrote in this
`
`11:6 declaration was my idea. It is not -- so
`
`11:7 from my understanding of what your question
`
`11:8 is, is that I took input from someone else
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`11:9 to add in here. And what I'm saying is that
`
`11:10 whatever I wrote here was my input.
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`11:11 Q. And that input which you put
`
`11:12 in there was based on conversations and
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`11:13 input you received from counsel?
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`11:14 A. It was based on a lot of
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`11:15 things, including that.
`
`11:16 Q. Okay. So the edits you made
`
`11:17 were based on inputs from counsel?
`
`11:18 A. So we're asking the same
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`11:19 question over and over again. I don't know
`
`11:20 what is --
`
`11:21 Q. But you haven't answered my
`
`11:22 question yet. So I'm trying to establish
`
`0011
`
`
`
`12:1 that.
`
`12:2 A. So maybe you should rephrase
`
`12:3 it.
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`12:4 Q. I will rephrase it.
`
`12:5 When you had the exchanges, as
`
`12:6 you said, with counsel, you made edits to
`
`12:7 your draft, and that input from counsel is
`
`12:8 reflected in the final draft?
`
`12:9 A. And the answer to that
`
`12:10 particular question, which was asked and
`
`12:11 answered, was whatever edit I put in there
`
`12:12 was finally mine. I -- it is my opinion
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`12:13 that is in this declaration, nobody else's.
`
`12:14 Q. I'm not suggesting that
`
`12:15 there's -- what I hear -- let me just
`
`12:16 rephrase.
`
`12:17 In preparing this declaration
`
`12:18 that we're looking at, this declaration
`
`12:19 represents your input and your final
`
`12:20 conclusions?
`
`12:21 A. That's correct.
`
`12:22 Q. And sitting here today, after
`
`0012
`
`
`
`13:1 you reviewed it yesterday, are there any
`
`13:2 changes? Is this -- that you feel need to
`
`13:3 be made in the declaration?
`
`13:4 A. There might be some typos.
`
`13:5 Q. Okay. You want to mention one
`
`13:6 of them?
`
`13:7 A. One of the ones I do know is,
`
`13:8 I believe on the introduction that's on
`
`13:9 behalf of Arendi, I don't know who Arendi
`
`13:10 is. So that was either from auto-correct or
`
`13:11 something. I don't know how that got in
`
`13:12 there.
`
`13:13 Q. Okay. So just to make sure
`
`13:14 it's clear in the record, if we look at
`
`13:15 paragraph 1 of your declaration, the third
`
`13:16 line where it says, "Arendi"?
`
`13:17 A. It should probably be --
`
`13:18 Q. What should the correction be?
`
`13:19 A. Vedanti.
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`13:20 Q. And that's V-E-D-A-N-T-I
`
`13:21 Systems Limited?
`
`13:22 A. That's correct.
`
`0013
`
`
`
`14:1 Q. Do you know what the party
`
`14:2 Arendi is?
`
`14:3 A. No.
`
`14:4 Q. No recollection of Arendi?
`
`14:5 A. No.
`
`14:6 Q. Okay. Approximately how much
`
`14:7 time did it take to prepare your
`
`14:8 declaration, do you recall?
`
`14:9 A. I do not recall that.
`
`14:10 Q. Like a week or two days?
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`14:11 A. More than two days, but I do
`
`14:12 not recall.
`
`14:13 Q. In your preparation of the
`
`14:14 declaration, did you review the prosecution
`
`14:15 history that led -- before the patent office
`
`14:16 that led to the issuance of the '339 patent?
`
`14:17 A. I believe in my declaration I
`
`14:18 stated what I relied upon.
`
`14:19 Q. So if it's not explicitly
`
`14:20 stated in the declaration, then you didn't
`
`14:21 review it?
`
`14:22 A. That's correct.
`
`0014
`
`
`
`15:1 Q. Did you see the patent owner
`
`15:2 response that was filed along with your
`
`15:3 declaration at the PTAB proceeding?
`
`15:4 A. If it is not stated in my
`
`15:5 declaration, then I haven't seen it.
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`15:6 Q. So your testimony today is you
`
`15:7 did not see the patent owner response?
`
`15:8 A. My testimony today, if it's
`
`15:9 not in my declaration, I didn't see it.
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`15:10 Q. Okay. Did you see the patent
`
`15:11 owner motion to amend while you were
`
`15:12 preparing your declaration?
`
`15:13 A. I'm sorry, this is the third
`
`15:14 question you're talking about certain
`
`15:15 documents that I said -- I've already
`
`15:16 answered. Whatever I used is in the
`
`15:17 declaration. You're mentioning new names
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`15:18 that frankly doesn't mean anything to me.
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`15:19 I have specifically declared
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`15:20 what I reviewed for this declaration and
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`15:21 it's in my declaration.
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`15:22 Q. And it is my job to ask the
`
`0015
`
`
`
`16:1 questions. It's your job to answer. And
`
`16:2 I'm just making it very clear for the record
`
`16:3 for this particular document that you did
`
`16:4 not-- you agree, then, you did not review
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`16:5 the patent owner's motion to amend when you
`
`16:6 were preparing this declaration?
`
`16:7 A. Well, perhaps to -- to clarify
`
`16:8 this, maybe I should just read the paragraph
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`16:9 of what I reviewed and be done with it.
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`16:10 Q. Yes. I'm happy to do that.
`
`16:11 If we look at paragraph 14 on page 6 of
`
`16:12 Exhibit 2001.
`
`16:13 A. Would you like me to read that
`
`16:14 or would you like to read that?
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`16:15 Q. Well, if you'd like to refresh
`
`16:16 your memory, you can look at paragraph 14 of
`
`16:17 the declaration. The heading is information
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`16:18 considered in forming your opinion.
`
`16:19 A. Okay.
`
`16:20 Q. So let me just ask the
`
`16:21 question, just for clarity on the record.
`
`16:22 So did you review the patent
`
`0016
`
`
`
`17:1 owner's response in the preparation of your
`
`17:2 declaration?
`
`17:3 A. No.
`
`17:4 Q. Did you review the patent
`
`17:5 owner's motion to amend in preparation of
`
`17:6 your declaration?
`
`17:7 A. No.
`
`17:8 Q. Thank you. And did you review
`
`17:9 the prosecution history for the '339 patent
`
`17:10 in preparing your declaration?
`
`17:11 A. No.
`
`17:12 Q. Okay.
`
`17:13 MR. MESSINGER: Let me go
`
`17:14 ahead and give him Exhibit 2002, the CV.
`
`17:15 MR. LEE: Sure.
`
`17:16 Q. I'm handing you the document,
`
`17:17 Exhibit 2002.
`
`17:18 (Exhibit Number 2002
`
`17:19 previously marked.)
`
`17:20 Q. And do you recognize
`
`17:21 Exhibit 2002?
`
`17:22 A. Yes, I do.
`
`0017
`
`
`
`18:1 Q. And what is this document?
`
`18:2 A. This is my curriculum vitae.
`
`18:3 Q. Okay. So let's just talk a
`
`18:4 little bit about your experience.
`
`18:5 Did you work with image
`
`18:6 compression?
`
`18:7 A. Yes.
`
`18:8 Q. In what capacity have you
`
`18:9 worked with image compression?
`
`18:10 A. A large number of capacity.
`
`18:11 Q. Can you give me a few
`
`18:12 examples?
`
`18:13 A. My research topic in my Ph.D.
`
`18:14 dissertation was compression.
`
`18:15 Q. And approximately what time
`
`18:16 was that?
`
`18:17 A. I received my Ph.D., that
`
`18:18 appears on page 7 of my curriculum vitae, in
`
`18:19 1997.
`
`18:20 Q. 1997. So what's frame of
`
`18:21 image data?
`
`18:22 A. A frame of image data is
`
`0018
`
`
`
`19:1 actually a misnomer.
`
`19:2 Q. And what do you mean by
`
`19:3 "misnomer"?
`
`19:4 A. A frame is an image. There's
`
`19:5 no frame of an image.
`
`19:6 Q. And what is the image made up
`
`19:7 of?
`
`19:8 A. So can you clarify your
`
`19:9 question, please?
`
`19:10 Q. What are pixels?
`
`19:11 A. Picture elements is what is
`
`19:12 referred to classically by pixels.
`
`19:13 Q. And does the frame include --
`
`19:14 a frame of image data include pixels?
`
`19:15 A. It could, yes.
`
`19:16 Q. Have you ever worked with
`
`19:17 sampling of image data?
`
`19:18 A. That phrase means a lot of
`
`19:19 things to me. I -- I can very comfortably
`
`19:20 say yes, because I've worked with just about
`
`19:21 every image conceivable. And when you say
`
`19:22 "sampling," that means something totally
`
`0019
`
`
`
`20:1 different than what is considered in the
`
`20:2 patent as the subject.
`
`20:3 Q. So what is your understanding
`
`20:4 of sampling in connection with the '339
`
`20:5 patent?
`
`20:6 A. I would not consider sampling
`
`20:7 in the '339. I would consider it something
`
`20:8 else. Sampling is a process, academically,
`
`20:9 is a process whereby you take a continuous
`
`20:10 signal and you sample it. There is no
`
`20:11 continuous signal in the '339 patent.
`
`20:12 Q. Have you worked with sampling
`
`20:13 in the context of image data and data
`
`20:14 reduction with respect to image data?
`
`20:15 A. So I still stand with the
`
`20:16 previous answer I gave. There are images in
`
`20:17 the old ray tube. There are analog images
`
`20:18 that you can potentially take analog portion
`
`20:19 of an image and sample it. But that, again,
`
`20:20 is not the content of the '339 patent.
`
`20:21 Q. So I'm not asking about analog
`
`20:22 sampling. Have you worked with digital
`
`0020
`
`
`
`21:1 sampling?
`
`21:2 A. So -- so, again, I believe
`
`21:3 you're using the sampling incorrectly.
`
`21:4 Q. Can you tell me the correct
`
`21:5 understanding of sampling to a person of
`
`21:6 ordinary skill in the art?
`
`21:7 A. I just mentioned it. It is a
`
`21:8 process where you take a continuous signal
`
`21:9 and you sample it. Instead of having a
`
`21:10 continuous flow of signal, you have
`
`21:11 particular sample at a particular time.
`
`21:12 Q. Is that the only use of
`
`21:13 sampling or are there other uses of sampling
`
`21:14 in connection with digital images?
`
`21:15 A. So a general understanding of
`
`21:16 sampling is once applied to analog. What
`
`21:17 you talking about digital sampling, that is
`
`21:18 really -- that is really relevant to how
`
`21:19 it's applied or what the content -- context
`
`21:20 belongs to.
`
`21:21 Q. So have you ever worked with
`
`21:22 sampling pixel selection in the context of
`
`0021
`
`
`
`22:1 the '339 patent?
`
`22:2 A. So you have a new qualifier
`
`22:3 there, the pixel selection. It's a
`
`22:4 selection process. If you're referring to
`
`22:5 selection as the sampling process, that is
`
`22:6 something else than just sampling.
`
`22:7 Q. Okay. So let's assume we're
`
`22:8 talking about sampling in the context of
`
`22:9 pixel selection. Have you worked in that
`
`22:10 capacity at all?
`
`22:11 A. So -- okay. So just to be
`
`22:12 clear, I do not refer to that as sampling,
`
`22:13 it's just the selection process. And if you
`
`22:14 are asking me if I've ever utilized pixel
`
`22:15 sampling in my other compression or any
`
`22:16 other time, yes, I have.
`
`22:17 Q. Okay. And can you give me an
`
`22:18 example of that in your experience where you
`
`22:19 used pixel sampling like that?
`
`22:20 A. Like what?
`
`22:21 Q. As you described. Pixel
`
`22:22 sampling, can you give me an example of your
`
`0022
`
`
`
`23:1 experience using that?
`
`23:2 A. Okay. So one of the examples
`
`23:3 that comes to my mind is my Ph.D.
`
`23:4 dissertation whereby I had to order pixels
`
`23:5 based on its importance in knowledge
`
`23:6 representation. In particular, there were
`
`23:7 some pixels that carried more information
`
`23:8 than others, and as such I selectively
`
`23:9 ordered them, based on how much information
`
`23:10 they carried.
`
`23:11 Q. Have you worked with pixel
`
`23:12 selection in other contexts other than the
`
`23:13 ordering example that you gave?
`
`23:14 A. I have used many image
`
`23:15 processing techniques, most of which I have
`
`23:16 not analyzed and prepared for this
`
`23:17 deposition. If you're asking me from my
`
`23:18 general background, perhaps you can -- you'd
`
`23:19 like to go through my CV and we can discuss
`
`23:20 more in those. But I think what you're
`
`23:21 asking is to just come up with concepts on
`
`23:22 top of my head.
`
`0023
`
`
`
`24:1 Q. No. I'm just asking for your
`
`24:2 experience. I'm just simply walking through
`
`24:3 your experience and getting an understanding
`
`24:4 of your background. And so my question was,
`
`24:5 have you worked with pixel selection from
`
`24:6 image data in your experience?
`
`24:7 A. Like which experience?
`
`24:8 Q. In your background.
`
`24:9 A. I mean, I have --
`
`24:10 Q. I'm trying to be open, not
`
`24:11 limit it to -- to a specific company or
`
`24:12 something, but if that's helpful for you,
`
`24:13 I'm happy to go through the individual
`
`24:14 companies. But I would just like to know
`
`24:15 the answer to the question, have you worked
`
`24:16 with pixel sampling in your experience?
`
`24:17 A. And I gave you a very good
`
`24:18 example of it.
`
`24:19 Q. So I said, are there any other
`
`24:20 examples?
`
`24:21 A. I don't know. Perhaps.
`
`24:22 Q. Okay. So when you worked as
`
`0024
`
`
`
`25:1 CTO with IMACOM, did you work with pixel
`
`25:2 selection or image data?
`
`25:3 A. Yes. I believe so, sure.
`
`25:4 Q. And can you describe that more
`
`25:5 fully? What did that involve?
`
`25:6 A. I worked in cardiac
`
`25:7 catheterization and digital subtraction and
`
`25:8 geography and fluoroscopy, cinematography,
`
`25:9 radiography. All of them deals with pixels.
`
`25:10 Any high level of processing requires some
`
`25:11 sort of image processing, and some of them
`
`25:12 I'm sure deal with pixel selection.
`
`25:13 Q. Okay. And that pixel
`
`25:14 selection, did it also involve dividing the
`
`25:15 frame into blocks?
`
`25:16 A. I don't know. I think so.
`
`25:17 Q. Okay. So your experience in
`
`25:18 IMACOM before 2002 involved pixel selection
`
`25:19 with blocks?
`
`25:20 A. I'm sorry, repeat the
`
`25:21 question.
`
`25:22 Q. So before 2002 did you work
`
`0025
`
`
`
`26:1 with pixel selection with blocks?
`
`26:2 A. I believe I answered that I
`
`26:3 did with my thesis, okay.
`
`26:4 Now, if I remember your
`
`26:5 question correctly, the question you asked
`
`26:6 about and I answered about my thesis was not
`
`26:7 about blocks. It was about pixel selection.
`
`26:8 This is an added element with blocks.
`
`26:9 So in my thesis, specifically
`
`26:10 from what I remember, there were blocks. In
`
`26:11 IMACOM as a CTO of medical imaging, blocks
`
`26:12 were not the primary concern. It was to
`
`26:13 deliver health -- health information. Okay.
`
`26:14 So if the blocks made it, so be it. But if
`
`26:15 it didn't, you use whatever possible,
`
`26:16 whatever was necessary.
`
`26:17 Q. So in your experience in your
`
`26:18 thesis, you worked with blocks of data. And
`
`26:19 in your experience -- I'm sorry. So in
`
`26:20 your-- I'm just saying back what you said to
`
`26:21 me to make the record clear.
`
`26:22 In your experience with your
`
`0026
`
`
`
`27:1 thesis, it did involve dividing images in
`
`27:2 blocks?
`
`27:3 A. That's correct.
`
`27:4 Q. Did it also involve
`
`27:5 subdividing the blocks into different sizes?
`
`27:6 A. Yes.
`
`27:7 Q. Including different
`
`27:8 rectangles?
`
`27:9 A. Yes.
`
`27:10 Q. Different size rectangles?
`
`27:11 A. Yes.
`
`27:12 Q. Okay. And like different
`
`27:13 rectangles like different aspect ratios?
`
`27:14 A. I think that's what you meant
`
`27:15 with different sizes.
`
`27:16 Q. Okay. And then you've
`
`27:17 mentioned, with respect to your medical
`
`27:18 imaging, that blocks were not as central to
`
`27:19 the design of that system?
`
`27:20 A. There were multiple systems.
`
`27:21 I'm not -- I'm not sure which system you're
`
`27:22 referring to.
`
`0027
`
`
`
`28:1 Q. Okay. So you've worked with
`
`28:2 pixel selection and you've worked with
`
`28:3 subdividing blocks?
`
`28:4 A. Yes.
`
`28:5 Q. Okay. And this is before
`
`28:6 2002. This was your work on your thesis at
`
`28:7 IMACOM?
`
`28:8 A. That's correct.
`
`28:9 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`
`28:10 A. Uh-huh.
`
`28:11 Q. In your experience, the image
`
`28:12 processing experience that you mentioned
`
`28:13 with respect to pixel selection, did you
`
`28:14 ever consider the issue of transmitting the
`
`28:15 data, you know?
`
`28:16 A. I'm going to assume that
`
`28:17 you're talking about my thesis work.
`
`28:18 Q. Yes. Your thesis work. Let's
`
`28:19 take that example first.
`
`28:20 A. Okay. So again to -- can you
`
`28:21 just repeat your question?
`
`28:22 Q. In your work with your thesis,
`
`0028
`
`
`
`29:1 the image processing and pixel selection
`
`29:2 there, did you also have experience with
`
`29:3 transmitting the selected pixels?
`
`29:4 A. Absolutely, yes.
`
`29:5 Q. Okay. And what are some of
`
`29:6 the design considerations you faced when
`
`29:7 transmitting selected pixels?
`
`29:8 A. Compression. Rate distortion
`
`29:9 theory. Progress of transmission.
`
`29:10 Channel -- channel modeling. And probably a
`
`29:11 handful of other things. After all, it's a
`
`29:12 Ph.D. thesis and at the University of
`
`29:13 Maryland they're very rigorous in what you
`
`29:14 present.
`
`29:15 Q. Did you ever consider pixel
`
`29:16 variation in your work with your thesis,
`
`29:17 like comparing pixel intensity across an
`
`29:18 image?
`
`29:19 A. Yes.
`
`29:20 Q. Did you ever consider regions
`
`29:21 of high and low detail?
`
`29:22 A. Yes.
`
`0029
`
`
`
`30:1 Q. Do you know some of the ways
`
`30:2 to assess regions of high and low detail in
`
`30:3 an image?
`
`30:4 A. Yes.
`
`30:5 Q. Can you describe some of the
`
`30:6 ways that were known at the time of your
`
`30:7 thesis?
`
`30:8 A. Some of the known ways at the
`
`30:9 time of my thesis would have been variance,
`
`30:10 measurements of edges.
`
`30:11 Q. I'm sorry, what was the second
`
`30:12 one?
`
`30:13 A. Measurements of edges. Edges.
`
`30:14 Q. Okay. Yeah.
`
`30:15 A. Entropy measurement. And
`
`30:16 probably a handful of others.
`
`30:17 Q. And were these different tests
`
`30:18 that a person such as yourself, sort of
`
`30:19 skilled, could pick from in assessing pixel
`
`30:20 variation?
`
`30:21 A. Yes.
`
`30:22 Q. And what is DCT, discrete
`
`0030
`
`
`
`31:1 cosine transform compression?
`
`31:2 A. So, again, that's a misnomer.
`
`31:3 Discrete cosine transform by itself is not
`
`31:4 compression. So when you mention DCT
`
`31:5 compression, that implies something totally
`
`31:6 different in the field. So that phrase is a
`
`31:7 misnomer.
`
`31:8 Q. So what is discrete cosine
`
`31:9 transform, just in terms of the processing
`
`31:10 of the coefficients?
`
`31:11 A. Discrete cosine transform is a
`
`31:12 transform that takes data from one domain,
`
`31:13 mostly an image domain, into a different
`
`31:14 domain, which is similar to a frequency
`
`31:15 domain. Fourier transform is the official
`
`31:16 way of showing frequency domain. Discrete
`
`31:17 cosine transform is slightly different than
`
`31:18 that.
`
`31:19 Q. Is it common to apply discrete
`
`31:20 cosine transform to blocks of data?
`
`31:21 MR. ASHER: Objection. Form.
`
`31:22 A. Currently, yes.
`
`0031
`
`
`
`32:1 Q. How about before 2002, was
`
`32:2 discrete cosine transform known to apply the
`
`32:3 blocks of data?
`
`32:4 A. In 2002, with the advent of
`
`32:5 JPEG, people have used it and relied upon it
`
`32:6 to -- to transform image data into DCT
`
`32:7 domain data.
`
`32:8 Q. Okay. In those cases, it was
`
`32:9 known that DCT would be applied to the block
`
`32:10 of data where the block of data was already
`
`32:11 of a given size?
`
`32:12 A. So that is a well-established
`
`32:13 process in JPEG. JPEG was prevailing.
`
`32:14 People picked up JPEG. I'm not sure if I
`
`32:15 can say that the practice of applying it was
`
`32:16 as prevalent. People picked up JPEG as it
`
`32:17 was without understanding it. So if -- if
`
`32:18 that conveys with DCT, I'm not 100 percent
`
`32:19 sure.
`
`32:20 Q. Okay. I'd like to hand you
`
`32:21 the '339 patent, Exhibit 1001.
`
`32:22 (Exhibit Number 1001
`
`0032
`
`
`
`33:1 previously marked.)
`
`33:2 Q. You are familiar with the '339
`
`33:3 patent?
`
`33:4 A. Yes, I am.
`
`33:5 Q. Let's look at data
`
`33:6 transmission system 102 in fig. 1. Looking
`
`33:7 at figure 1, what is the data transmission
`
`33:8 system 102 made up of?
`
`33:9 A. As it's shown in figure 1 of
`
`33:10 the '339 patent, the data transmission
`
`33:11 system, block 102, consists of frame
`
`33:12 analysis system block 106 and pixel
`
`33:13 selection system 108.
`
`33:14 Q. Okay. And in the context of
`
`33:15 the '339 patent, can the frame analysis
`
`33:16 system 106 and the pixel selection
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