CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERCONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·1· ·CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`·2
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`·3· · · · IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`· · · · · · ·FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE
`·4
`· · · --------------------- )
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · ENDOHEART AG,· · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · Plaintiff,· · ) Civil Action No.
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )1:14-cv-01473-LPS-CJB
`·8· · · · v.· · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·9· · EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES· )
`· · · CORPORATION,· · · · · )
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · Defendant.· · )
`11· · --------------------- )
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`13· · · · · · · · ·30(b)(1) Videotape Deposition of:
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`14· · · · · · · · ·CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D.
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`15· · · · · · · · ·Taken by:· Edwards Lifesciences
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`16· · · · · · · · ·Date:· January 27, 2016
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`17· · · · · · · · ·Location:· Paul Weiss - New York
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`18· · · · · · · · ·Time:· 8:30 a.m.
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`19
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`20· · · · · · · · · · ·* * *
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`24· · Reporter:
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`25· · Greg DiDonato, CSR, RPR, CM, CP, CRR
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - New YorkDTI Court Reporting Solutions - New York
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`ENDOHEART AG, EX. 2005 Page 1
`EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES CORPORATION (PETITIONER) v. ENDOHEART AG (PATENT OWNER)
`Case No.: IPR2016-00300, U.S Patent No. 8,182,530
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`

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`CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERCONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·2· · · · · · ·P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
`·3· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We're now
`·4· · recording on the record.· My name is Michael
`·5· · Drenkalo, certified legal specialist with DTI.
`·6· · Today's date is January 27, 2016.· The time is
`·7· · 8:55 a.m.
`·8· · · · · · ·We're at the office of Paul Weiss,
`·9· · 1285 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New
`10· · York to take the video deposition of
`11· · Dr. Christoph Huber in the matter of Endoheart
`12· · AG versus Edwards Lifesciences Corporation,
`13· · United States District Court for the District
`14· · of Delaware.
`15· · · · · · ·Counsel will please introduce
`16· · themselves for the record.
`17· · · · · · ·MR. BLOOMBERG:· Mark Bloomberg, Zuber
`18· · Lawler & Del Duca representing plaintiff
`19· · Endoheart and the witness.
`20· · · · · · ·MR. MALONEY:· John C. Maloney, Jr.,
`21· · from Zuber Lawler & Del Duca also representing
`22· · Endoheart and the witness.
`23· · · · · · ·MR. ABRAMS:· Hugh Abrams from Sidley
`24· · Austin representing Brigham and Women's
`25· · Hospital, the intervenor.
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`·2· · · · · · · · ·Wednesday, January 27, 2016
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`·3· · · · · · · · ·8:30 A.M.
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`·4
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`·5· · · · Videotape 30(b)(1) deposition of Christoph
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`·6· · Hans Huber, M.D., pursuant to Notice, taken by
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`·7· · Defendant Edwards Lifesciences, held at the
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`·8· · law offices of Paul Weiss Rifkind Wharton &
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`·9· · Garrison LLP, 1285 Avenue of the Americas, New
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`10· · York, New York· 10019, before Gregory T.
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`11· · DiDonato of DTI Court Reporting, Certified
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`12· · Realtime Reporter and Notary Public of the
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`13· · State of New York, there being present:
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`·2· · · · · · ·MS. NYARADY:· Catherine Nyarady from
`·3· · Paul Weiss representing Edwards Lifesciences
`·4· · Corporation, and I'm joined with my colleagues
`·5· · also from Paul Weiss, William O'Hara and Kira
`·6· · Davis.
`·7· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The court reporter
`·8· · is Greg DiDonato who will first swear in the
`·9· · interpreter and then the witness.
`10· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Raise your right hand,
`11· · please.
`12· · · · · · ·Do you solemnly swear that you will
`13· · interpret the testimony and colloquy of
`14· · counsel to the best of your ability?
`15· · · · · · ·THE INTERPRETER:· Yes, I do.
`16· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Raise your right hand,
`17· · please.
`18· · · · · · ·Do you solemnly swear to tell the
`19· · truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
`20· · truth, so help you God?
`21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, I do.
`22· · · · · · ·MR. BLOOMBERG:· Just for a quick
`23· · housekeeping matter, we're going to want to
`24· · designate the matter as "Highly Confidential"
`25· · under the Protective Order for all three days.
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`·2· · APPEARANCES:
`·3· · FOR THE PLAINTIFF AND THE WITNESS:
`·4· · MARK BLOOMBERG, ESQ.
`· · · JOHN C. MALONEY, JR., ESQ.
`·5· · Zuber Lawler & Del Duca LLP
`· · · 420 Lexington Avenue
`·6· · Suite 2640
`· · · New York, NY· ·10170
`·7· · mbloomberg@zuberlaw.com
`· · · jmaloney@zuberlaw.com
`·8
`·9· · FOR THE DEFENDANT:
`10· · CATHERINE NYARADY, ESQ.
`· · · WILLIAM O'HARE, ESQ.
`11· · KIRA A. DAVIS, ESQ.
`· · · Paul Weiss Rifkind Wharton & Garrison LLP
`12· · 1285 Avenue of the Americas
`· · · New York, NY· 10019
`13· · cnyarady@paulweiss.com
`· · · wohare@paulweiss.com
`14· · kdavis@paulweiss.com
`15
`· · · FOR THE INTERVENOR:
`16
`· · · HUGH ABRAMS, ESQ.
`17· · Sidley Austin LLP
`· · · One South Dearborn
`18· · Chicago, IL 60603
`· · · habrams@sidley.com
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23· · ALSO PRESENT:
`24· · Michael Drenkalo, Videographer
`25· · Petra S. Gehrung, Interpreter
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`ENDOHEART AG, EX. 2005 Page 2
`EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES CORPORATION (PETITIONER) v. ENDOHEART AG (PATENT OWNER)
`Case No.: IPR2016-00300, U.S Patent No. 8,182,530
`
`

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`http://www.yeslaw.net/help
`
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`CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERCONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· So, you're not claiming to have
`·3· · invented the transcatheter heart valve; right?
`·4· · · · ·A.· I don't claim to have invented the
`·5· · device; no.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· And you haven't -- did you ever make
`·7· · a guide wire or did you always use
`·8· · off-the-shelf guide wires?
`·9· · · · ·A.· We used guide wires that were
`10· · available at the moment for the animal
`11· · experiments, for example.
`12· · · · ·Q.· So, whatever was available at the
`13· · hospital, you were using, you didn't build the
`14· · guide wire; right?
`15· · · · ·A.· No.· I didn't specifically use soft
`16· · guide wires in animals.· I used whatever guide
`17· · wires, because we took guide wires that were
`18· · already used in patients for cost reasons.
`19· · Those guide wires are sometimes they might
`20· · have been soft, sometimes they have been hard,
`21· · etcetera, but we used those guide wires in
`22· · animals, whatever we had at hand, really.
`23· · · · ·Q.· So, for the animals, you didn't, you
`24· · didn't think that the type of guide wire
`25· · mattered, you could use any type of guide
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`Pages 14..17
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`·2· · make sure I understand.· One is because of the
`·3· · stenosis, the size of the aortic opening
`·4· · varies between pigs and humans; right?
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· And the other is the risk of injury
`·7· · depending on what guide wire you use?
`·8· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· So, I want to take those in pieces.
`10· · Let's start with the risk of injury, and I
`11· · just want to make sure I understand the
`12· · concept.
`13· · · · · · ·You're saying that for a -- you don't
`14· · want to puncture an artery or, I mean, is that
`15· · basically what you're saying, you don't want
`16· · to puncture an artery if you use, for example,
`17· · a stiff guide wire and you poke through
`18· · something?
`19· · · · ·A.· There's a technique called Seldinger
`20· · technique, that is a known technique, and it's
`21· · for someone skilled in the art normal that he
`22· · starts the procedure with a wire that has less
`23· · risk of traumatizing the tissue.
`24· · · · ·Q.· So, this was already, it was known
`25· · that using a soft guide wire and, in fact,
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`·2· · wire; is that right?
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes, that's right.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· So, can you explain to me why, as I
`·5· · understand it, your position is that in humans
`·6· · it matters what type of guide wire you used;
`·7· · is that correct?
`·8· · · · ·A.· That's correct.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Can you explain to me why it doesn't
`10· · matter in pigs but it does matter in humans?
`11· · · · ·A.· Well, there's an important
`12· · difference.· In pigs, you cannot create what
`13· · is called an animal model that simulates
`14· · accurately aortic valve stenosis.· Pigs are
`15· · healthy animals with large aortic openings,
`16· · and risk of injury to the pig is, of course,
`17· · not as important as in a patient under the
`18· · clinical setting.
`19· · · · · · ·So, in pigs, we just had to use
`20· · anything that allowed us to create the rail
`21· · from getting to the heart, reaching to the
`22· · aortic valve and beyond, and relatively it was
`23· · absolutely of no matter or concern.
`24· · · · ·Q.· I think there were two separate
`25· · concepts that you just covered, and I want to
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`·2· · what we referred to already as the starting
`·3· · guide wires that were commercially available,
`·4· · would you agree with me that it was generally
`·5· · known that those were good for starting the
`·6· · procedure because they were softer and less
`·7· · risk of puncture?
`·8· · · · ·A.· That's right; at least for target
`·9· · organs like vessels, because at that moment in
`10· · time, at least by my best knowledge, nobody
`11· · tried this technique in pigs.· So, I didn't
`12· · know what was best for pigs; therefore, I
`13· · didn't care, I took whatever wire I had at
`14· · hand, as I mentioned.
`15· · · · · · ·But accessing artery or vein, usually
`16· · it was performed by using wire that was less
`17· · traumatic in a clinical setting.
`18· · · · ·Q.· So, turning to the second point you
`19· · had about size of the opening in the pig
`20· · versus the human, can you explain to me how
`21· · your invention solves that problem that you've
`22· · identified?
`23· · · · ·A.· So, as I mentioned with pigs, there
`24· · is no heart, no animal model that allows you
`25· · to accurately simulate aortic valve stenosis,
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`ENDOHEART AG, EX. 2005 Page 3
`EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES CORPORATION (PETITIONER) v. ENDOHEART AG (PATENT OWNER)
`Case No.: IPR2016-00300, U.S Patent No. 8,182,530
`
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`http://www.yeslaw.net/help
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`CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERCONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·2· · for example, pigs.· So, I was left with one
`·3· · issue.· The pig animals were presented and
`·4· · seemed to work very fine, but I didn't know
`·5· · what happened if you had aortic valve stenosis
`·6· · to cope with.
`·7· · · · · · ·And this was one of my reflections
`·8· · and issues I had to solve to get that
`·9· · procedure successful; because, ultimately, it
`10· · was supposed to save the patients' lives, and
`11· · that's what I wanted, that's what I was
`12· · trained for, that's what my aim is and
`13· · profession is, to help patients and save
`14· · patients lives.
`15· · · · · · ·While I didn't have the solution
`16· · while doing those animal experiments, and
`17· · while I was on my way from Switzerland from
`18· · Lausanne with my wife, pregnant with twins, on
`19· · my way from Geneva to Boston, I stood at
`20· · Geneva airport, and while I was quite stressed
`21· · we might miss the plane, even though we got
`22· · there in time, and we couldn't move as fast as
`23· · we wanted to, but we were standing there
`24· · watching people trying to push through the
`25· · gates.· And there was quite a large crowd
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`·2· · soft enough to help by the stream to go to the
`·3· · gate, go through the aortic valve, that will
`·4· · be most likely the solution.
`·5· · · · · · ·I didn't have proof of concept, but
`·6· · for me that was the key element to my
`·7· · invention that bonded and joined all different
`·8· · steps that are found in claim 1 to make the
`·9· · whole claim 1 work; that was to take a wire
`10· · that was configure, or configured, you call it
`11· · soft, to allow it to go through the narrow
`12· · passageway, the gate or the aortic valve, and
`13· · aided or helped by the blood flow to do so.
`14· · · · ·Q.· And I didn't mean to put my words in
`15· · place of yours, and I did call it soft, you're
`16· · right.
`17· · · · · · ·Is that fair, are soft guide wires as
`18· · a category configured to conform to the
`19· · direction of blood flow?
`20· · · · ·A.· I would say that's fair to say, a
`21· · soft guide wire, as you mentioned, there are
`22· · different grades of softness, and I'm not a
`23· · med-tech technical specialist, but there is
`24· · softnesses understood as being a wire that
`25· · could do the job, or firmer wires that are in
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`·2· · outside the gates, and obviously there was
`·3· · very little, only one by one, like a drop by
`·4· · drop going through the gate.
`·5· · · · · · ·And this interesting concept suddenly
`·6· · made me aware that the solution was right in
`·7· · front of my eyes; that the gate was the
`·8· · stenosis, and all the people trying to get
`·9· · through the gate were, was the blood in the
`10· · left ventricle.· And they tried to push
`11· · through, and people in the middle were
`12· · principally dragged nearly through that gate.
`13· · · · · · ·And that's where I said, well, yes,
`14· · that's the trick, that's the invention; that
`15· · if we can, if this works, then that's the
`16· · solution to the problem.
`17· · · · ·Q.· And did you -- so, okay.
`18· · · · · · ·You saw the people going through the
`19· · gate, and you thought about this drag.· How
`20· · did that then translate into the next thought,
`21· · how did that lead to, oh, it's a soft guide
`22· · wire, or whatever your next realization was?
`23· · · · ·A.· Well, it was pure deduction, I said,
`24· · if people, this is a flexible mass of people,
`25· · if I put anything into that stream that is
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`·2· · the intermediate range, and then there are
`·3· · other wires that are stiff wires.· But there's
`·4· · a clear group of wires that we call soft
`·5· · wires, and those wires, suddenly some of those
`·6· · wires would work.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Some but not all?
`·8· · · · ·A.· This is something I haven't tried;
`·9· · so, I couldn't give you an honest answer to
`10· · that.· I would assume that if they are in this
`11· · category, this group of designated wires, it
`12· · would work; but I don't have personal
`13· · experience with it, so I couldn't give you the
`14· · honest truth about that.
`15· · · · ·Q.· So, again, I just want to make sure I
`16· · understand what you're saying.
`17· · · · · · ·You're guess is that soft guide wires
`18· · would all conform to the direction of blood
`19· · flow, but because you haven't tried every
`20· · single one, you can't say for sure; is that
`21· · right?
`22· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I would agree on this
`23· · statement.
`24· · · · ·Q.· So, then you also mentioned there's a
`25· · category of intermediate guide wires, and
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`ENDOHEART AG, EX. 2005 Page 4
`EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES CORPORATION (PETITIONER) v. ENDOHEART AG (PATENT OWNER)
`Case No.: IPR2016-00300, U.S Patent No. 8,182,530
`
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`http://www.yeslaw.net/help
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`CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERCONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·2· · that's very helpful to me, because when I've
`·3· · been looking into the guide wire, I noticed
`·4· · that some of them are called soft, some are
`·5· · called stiff, and there are some that aren't
`·6· · called anything.· And so, maybe that's the
`·7· · intermediate category.
`·8· · · · · · ·But, for the intermediate category,
`·9· · how could you tell whether or not a guide wire
`10· · in the intermediate category is configured to
`11· · conform to a direction of blood flow?
`12· · · · ·A.· Well, I didn't use wires, at least
`13· · not in patients that were in the immediate
`14· · category.· So, it's difficult to give you an
`15· · exact answer on that.· And I don't know what
`16· · you define at the end of intermediate
`17· · categories, because it doesn't mean the wire
`18· · is marked with soft, or with stiff, it doesn't
`19· · mean it is intermediate, and I don't know if
`20· · there is a definition of an intermediate wire;
`21· · so, it would be really challenging for me to
`22· · give you any clear-cut definitions.
`23· · · · · · ·What I know is that principally there
`24· · are two types of wires that are being used,
`25· · soft wires and stiff wires; The rest is all
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`·2· · that makes the answer much easier.· That could
`·3· · be a soft guide wire, that could as well be a
`·4· · hard guide wire that has capabilities of
`·5· · behaving like a soft guide wire for part of
`·6· · its length.
`·7· · · · · · ·So, let's put the term as it is put
`·8· · in claim 1 and issued by the U.S. Patent &
`·9· · Trademark Office, I'll be happy to read that:
`10· · "Configured to conform to the direction of
`11· · blood flow."· That's why it has been put that
`12· · way.
`13· · · · ·Q.· And so, a couple of questions on
`14· · that.
`15· · · · · · ·You were talking about a stiff guide
`16· · wire could have a portion that, I'll use my
`17· · term, softer.· So, I've seen guide wires, for
`18· · example, in some in some of the brochures that
`19· · say stiff with a floppy tip.
`20· · · · · · ·Would that be examples of what you're
`21· · talking about, most of the guide wire will be
`22· · stiff but at the end it will be much softer or
`23· · floppier?
`24· · · · ·A.· Put the question back to you.· Do you
`25· · think that wire would be aided by the blood
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`·2· · interpretation.
`·3· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Interpretation?
`·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Interpretation;
`·5· · correct.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· So, forget the label, intermediate.
`·7· · But just with respect to any guide wire, and
`·8· · if it makes the question easier, you know, you
`·9· · can assume it's a stiff guide wire -- well,
`10· · let me ask you this.
`11· · · · · · ·Are there stiff guide wires that
`12· · could fall into the category of being
`13· · configured to conform to a direction of blood
`14· · flow?
`15· · · · ·A.· No.· It depends how you define wire
`16· · and what part of the wire you define.
`17· · · · · · ·Wire can be having uniform
`18· · characteristics over its whole length, but
`19· · wire could have nonuniform characteristics
`20· · over its whole length; wire could have a part
`21· · of the wire that is very soft and a part of
`22· · the wire that is more rigid.
`23· · · · · · ·Now, how to define this wire by using
`24· · the term soft or hard is tricky; but if you
`25· · use the term that is, wires configured, then
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`·2· · flow if just a very centimeter at the tip
`·3· · really is soft?
`·4· · · · · · ·If you read the claim here it says,
`·5· · the feeding continues, configured to conform
`·6· · to the direction of blood flow, the feeding
`·7· · continuing such that the wire follows the
`·8· · blood flow until length of the wire extends
`·9· · from the ventricle apex of the heart.
`10· · · · · · ·That will give you some indication
`11· · how long this floppy wire has to be.· It's
`12· · just the tip.· The rigidity of the rest of the
`13· · wire will not really help it to aid it or
`14· · direct it by the blood flow.
`15· · · · ·Q.· I see.· So, it is really a longer
`16· · piece than just the tip you're talking about?
`17· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Verbally, sir.
`18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sorry?
`19· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Respond verbally.
`20· · · · · · ·MS. NYARADY:· You were nodding.
`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.· Sorry.
`22· · · · ·Q.· Can I ask you a question?
`23· · · · · · ·What is, if you know, I see the term
`24· · soft, and then I see the term floppy.· Are
`25· · those terms interchangeable in your field?
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`
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`ENDOHEART AG, EX. 2005 Page 5
`EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES CORPORATION (PETITIONER) v. ENDOHEART AG (PATENT OWNER)
`Case No.: IPR2016-00300, U.S Patent No. 8,182,530
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`CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERCONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·2· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I think we could interchange
`·3· · those terms.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· Do you know why they use both terms?
`·5· · · · ·A.· You know, just --
`·6· · · · ·Q.· Just to confuse people like me or
`·7· · what?
`·8· · · · ·A.· I think physicians are not lawyers
`·9· · and not IP experts.· Our vocabulary is more
`10· · variable, but both describe similar function,
`11· · floppy or soft.· I can't tell you whether each
`12· · of us understand by those terms, but I think
`13· · it's accurate to say they have very familiar
`14· · characteristics and they differentiate from
`15· · what we call stiff guide wire.
`16· · · · ·Q.· So, back to the, let's stick with
`17· · soft guide wires for now.· If I had a soft
`18· · guide wire, and I wanted to figure out whether
`19· · it was configured to conform to a direction of
`20· · blood flow, how do I do that?
`21· · · · ·A.· Try it, and we'll see.
`22· · · · ·Q.· Try it how, what do I do?
`23· · · · ·A.· You can use it in a transapical
`24· · procedure in a patient.
`25· · · · ·Q.· And what will I observe that will
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`·2· · you do your shopping in any grocery store, but
`·3· · that's how we are forced to express ours in
`·4· · patent.
`·5· · · · · · ·But it also helps us to differentiate
`·6· · by using this accurate terms because, usually
`·7· · in the common language, we are not that
`·8· · accurate when we discuss about things.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Understood.· So, these are words that
`10· · you used in your patent to describe what you
`11· · were trying to convey in terms of your
`12· · invention, but it's not, you know, for
`13· · example, I'm not going to find this phrase in
`14· · guide wire handbooks, or anything like that?
`15· · · · · · ·I ask only because I've looked, and I
`16· · can't find it.· So, I just want to know if I'm
`17· · missing something?
`18· · · · ·A.· Probably you are more expert on wires
`19· · than I am.· But, yet, you can certainly, I
`20· · think you probably could find configured, that
`21· · a wire is configured, I think that's a word
`22· · you might find, configured to conform to the
`23· · direction of blood flow.· I think it's less
`24· · likely you will find that in a brochure.· But
`25· · I also think that if I, if I give that
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`·2· · tell me whether or not it's configured to
`·3· · conform to a direction of blood flow?
`·4· · · · ·A.· This is something you might recognize
`·5· · on the fluoroscopy, for example.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· How would I recognize that on the
`·7· · fluoroscopy?
`·8· · · · ·A.· A wire that is soft will conform to
`·9· · blood flow, and that's what you're going to
`10· · see on the screen, the wire will, if you feed
`11· · the wire, so advance the wire, then the wire
`12· · will without your, without mandatory help or
`13· · manipulation, will ease, then go or change
`14· · direction.· This is of course not a hundred
`15· · percent behavior of the wire, but if the wire
`16· · gets into the blood flow, then you will
`17· · recognize that on the screen.
`18· · · · ·Q.· The term configured to conform to a
`19· · direction of blood flow, is that a phrase that
`20· · is used by cardiologists or interventional
`21· · cardiologists or cardiac surgeons?
`22· · · · ·A.· Well, I would have asked if any of
`23· · those terms in the patent are being used
`24· · regularly by us.· And I would say, no, this is
`25· · not the way we talk, and that's not the way
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`·2· · sentence to somebody skilled in the art, he
`·3· · will understand what it means.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· So, you think he will understand that
`·5· · it means that without mandatory help or
`·6· · manipulation, that it's going to ease or go or
`·7· · change direction in the blood flow; right?
`·8· · · · ·A.· Yes.· Ease or change, there are many
`·9· · words in that sentence but, principally, yes,
`10· · it's going to be conformed to the direction of
`11· · blood flow, and that could be translated to,
`12· · as I also said before, eased or aided; yes.
`13· · · · ·Q.· So, getting back to how I can figure
`14· · out if I have a soft guide wire, and I want to
`15· · use it, figuring out whether or not it's
`16· · covered by your patent, you said to do a TA
`17· · procedure, you look at the fluoroscopy, right,
`18· · and, if I understand you correctly, if I am
`19· · the doctor feeding the guide wire, if I then
`20· · let go of the guide wire, I will see movement,
`21· · absent me manually feeding the guide wire, if
`22· · it is configured to conform to a direction of
`23· · blood flow; is that correct?
`24· · · · · · ·MR. BLOOMBERG:· Object to the form of
`25· · the question.
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`ENDOHEART AG, EX. 2005 Page 6
`EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES CORPORATION (PETITIONER) v. ENDOHEART AG (PATENT OWNER)
`Case No.: IPR2016-00300, U.S Patent No. 8,182,530
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·2· · have such a clear memory of having this idea
`·3· · at the airport, why did you not put that in
`·4· · your declaration?
`·5· · · · ·A.· Well, you asked me very clearly
`·6· · today.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· So, you didn't think you needed to be
`·8· · precise in the declaration, you thought it
`·9· · wasn't important to have a date when you
`10· · conceived of it?
`11· · · · ·A.· Well, we gave a time window when the,
`12· · as I can tell you, it was between
`13· · December 2003 and January 2004.
`14· · · · · · ·And as I confirm with you today,
`15· · that's December 28th, 2003.· We arrived in the
`16· · middle of that time frame.· So, there's
`17· · nothing wrong with that.
`18· · · · ·Q.· I didn't say there's anything wrong
`19· · with that.· I'm just trying to understand, if
`20· · you had such a clear memory that it happened
`21· · at the airport, why you couldn't be more
`22· · specific.
`23· · · · · · ·And, if I understand your answer,
`24· · it's just that you didn't try to be more
`25· · specific; is that right?
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`·2· · told me it was on the 28th of December.· And
`·3· · then we had several documents that showed when
`·4· · we arrived in Boston, Homeland Security
`·5· · documents, for example.
`·6· · · · · · ·So, I knew it was the 28th of
`·7· · December.· But until then, I wasn't aware what
`·8· · day exactly we took the plane.· I just knew it
`·9· · was at the airport in Geneva.
`10· · · · ·Q.· Did you provide those documents to
`11· · your attorneys?
`12· · · · ·A.· I provided those documents to my
`13· · attorneys.
`14· · · · ·Q.· Did your lawyers ever ask you about
`15· · whether you could be more precise of the date
`16· · of conception?
`17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Is that not an
`18· · attorney-client...
`19· · · · · · ·MR. BLOOMBERG:· Yes.· Could you
`20· · rephrase that.
`21· · · · · · ·MS. NYARADY:· You can object and
`22· · instruct him not to answer.
`23· · · · · · ·MR. BLOOMBERG:· The way it is, I'll
`24· · object and say it's attorney-client privilege,
`25· · what we asked him.
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`·2· · · · ·A.· I didn't think at that time it was so
`·3· · important to have an exact date, because I
`·4· · gave a window of time starting December 2003
`·5· · and January 2004.
`·6· · · · · · ·I couldn't remember.· I was, in order
`·7· · to remember everything, I had to go back to
`·8· · see what time, day we flew.· I couldn't
`·9· · remember what time, what day we flew.· I knew
`10· · it was the day of the airport, but I couldn't
`11· · remember if that day was 28th of December or
`12· · 27th or 29th of December.
`13· · · · · · ·So, I didn't want to be inaccurate;
`14· · and we put a window, so I was sure I was
`15· · within that window.
`16· · · · · · ·Now, I realized we arrived on the
`17· · 28th of December to Boston because we, I had
`18· · an official document showing that.· And so, I
`19· · knew it was on December 28th, when took the
`20· · plane to, Air France plane going from Geneva
`21· · going to Paris and then to Boston.
`22· · · · ·Q.· And how did you check the date of the
`23· · flight?
`24· · · · ·A.· We had, first of all -- well, first
`25· · of all, I asked my wife when we flew.· So, she
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`·2· · · · · · ·(INSTRUCTION.)
`·3· · · · ·Q.· But until -- you made no effort,
`·4· · though, until recently to try to figure out
`·5· · the exact date of conception; is that fair?
`·6· · · · ·A.· That's fair to say.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· And on December 28th of 2003, you
`·8· · were employed by CHUV; right?
`·9· · · · ·A.· I'm sorry, December?
`10· · · · ·Q.· You said that conception was
`11· · December 28th of 2003?
`12· · · · ·A.· 2003.· Yes, that's right.
`13· · · · ·Q.· At that time you were employed by
`14· · CHUV; correct?
`15· · · · · · ·MR. BLOOMBERG:· Objection; vague.
`16· · · · ·A.· What do you understand by "employed"?
`17· · · · ·Q.· Well, what does employed mean to you?
`18· · · · ·A.· Well, getting a salary.
`19· · · · ·Q.· Were you still being paid by CHUV as
`20· · of December 28th, 2003?
`21· · · · ·A.· No; not by my best recollection.
`22· · · · ·Q.· You're not sure?· You don't think so,
`23· · but you're not a hundred percent sure?
`24· · · · ·A.· We provided work documents from CHUV;
`25· · so, we would have to have a look at this.· But
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`ENDOHEART AG, EX. 2005 Page 7
`EDWARDS LIFESCIENCES CORPORATION (PETITIONER) v. ENDOHEART AG (PATENT OWNER)
`Case No.: IPR2016-00300, U.S Patent No. 8,182,530
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`CONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERCONFIDENTIAL - PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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`CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016CHRISTOPH H. HUBER, M.D. - 01/27/2016
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`·2· · as I remember, no, I was not employed anymore.
`·3· · I didn't get salary.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· You didn't get salary.· Okay.· But if
`·5· · employment means you technically, you were on
`·6· · the books as being an employee, were you
`·7· · technically an employee of CHUV even though
`·8· · you weren't being paid as of December 28,
`·9· · 2003?
`10· · · · · · ·MR. BLOOMBERG:· Objection.· Object to
`11· · the form of the question.
`12· · · · · · ·MS. NYARADY:· Continue.· There was a
`13· · what?
`14· · · · ·A.· There was a contract of the CHUV and
`15· · me putting me on unpaid leave that was in
`16· · place during, I can't be sure of the exact
`17· · date, but most of if not all of the time was
`18· · also working in Brigham and Women's Hospital.
`19· · · · ·Q.· So, you were still under contract
`20· · with CHUV, but you were on a leave of absence;
`21· · is that right?
`22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Now, I'm not sure about
`23· · the English terms.
`24· · · · · · ·(Discussion between the interpreter
`25· · and the witness.)
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