7/14/2017
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`Anthony J. Senn
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`Page 1
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` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________________________________________
`
` 3
`
` DIGITAL CHECK CORP. d/b/a ST IMAGING,
` 4 Petitioner,
`
` 5 v.
`
` 6 E-IMAGEDATA CORP.
` Patent Owner.
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` ____________________________________________________________
`
` Case IPR2017-00177
` 9 Case IPR2017-00178
` Patent 8,537,279 B2
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14 The deposition of ANTHONY J. SENN, taken in
`
` 15 the above-entitled cause, before Ronda L. Jones, a notary
`
` 16 public of Cook County, Illinois, on the 14th day of July,
`
` 17 2017, at 70 West Madison Street, Suite 2800, Chicago,
`
` 18 Illinois, at the hour of 9:05, pursuant to notice.
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24 Reported by: Ronda L. Jones, CSR, RPR
`
` 25 License No.: Illinois 084-002728
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 1 of 84
`
`
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 1
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________________________________________
`
` 3
`
` DIGITAL CHECK CORP. d/b/a ST IMAGING,
` 4 Petitioner,
`
` 5 v.
`
` 6 E-IMAGEDATA CORP.
` Patent Owner.
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` ____________________________________________________________
`
` Case IPR2017-00177
` 9 Case IPR2017-00178
` Patent 8,537,279 B2
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14 The deposition of ANTHONY J. SENN, taken in
`
` 15 the above-entitled cause, before Ronda L. Jones, a notary
`
` 16 public of Cook County, Illinois, on the 14th day of July,
`
` 17 2017, at 70 West Madison Street, Suite 2800, Chicago,
`
` 18 Illinois, at the hour of 9:05, pursuant to notice.
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24 Reported by: Ronda L. Jones, CSR, RPR
`
` 25 License No.: Illinois 084-002728
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 1 of 84
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`7/14/2017
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`Anthony J. Senn
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`Page 2
`
` 1 APPEARANCES:
`
` 2 K & L GATES, LLP
`
` 3 BY: MR. JASON ENGEL
`
` 4 MS. KACY L. DICKE
`
` 5 70 West Madison Street, Suite 2800
`
` 6 Chicago, Illinois 60602
`
` 7 (312) 781-7234
`
` 8 jason.engel@klgates.com
`
` 9 kacy.dicke@klgates.com
`
` 10 Representing the Petitioner;
`
` 11
`
` 12 QUARLES & BRADY, LLP
`
` 13 BY: MR. MICHAEL T. PIERY
`
` 14 411 East Wisconsin Avenue, Suite 2350
`
` 15 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202-4497
`
` 16 (414) 277-5367
`
` 17 michael.piery@quarles.com
`
` 18 Representing the Patent Owner;
`
` 19
`
` 20 ALSO PRESENT: MR. BRETT WEBER.
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 2 of 84
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`Page 3
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` 1 I N D E X
`
` 2 WITNESS PAGE
`
` 3 Anthony J. Senn
`
` 4 Cross Examination by Mr. Piery 4
`
` 5 Redirect Examination by Ms. Dicke 70
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12 FOLLOWING EXHIBITS WERE PREVIOUSLY MARKED
`
` 13 AND REFERRED TO IN THIS DEPOSITION
`
` 14 NUMBER PAGE
`
` 15 Exh. 1001 - 019 Patent 53
`
` 16 Exh. 1002 - Senn Declaration for Patent 279 15
`
` 17 Exh. 1002 - Senn Declaration for Patent 019 49
`
` 18 Exh. 1004 - Fujinana Reference 46
`
` 19 Exh. 1005 - Kokubo Reference 20
`
` 20 Exh. 1006 - Watanabe Reference 38
`
` 21
`
` 22 (Previously marked exhibits retained by Mr. Piery)
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 3 of 84
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`Page 4
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` 1 ANTHONY J. SENN,
`
` 2 called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was
`
` 3 examined and testified as follows:
`
` 4 CROSS EXAMINATION
`
` 5 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Senn.
`
` 7 A. Morning.
`
` 8 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record?
`
` 9 A. Anthony Joseph Senn.
`
` 10 Q. So you've submitted three declarations in these IRP
`
` 11 proceedings between Digital Check Corp. and e-ImageData Corp.
`
` 12 So one of those proceedings was not instituted. So we're
`
` 13 here today to talk about your declarations in the other two
`
` 14 proceedings, all right?
`
` 15 A. Understood.
`
` 16 Q. And the parties have agreed that your testimony
`
` 17 today can be used for both proceedings. So we're going to be
`
` 18 submitting two declarations. We're going to take one
`
` 19 deposition to address both of them, all right?
`
` 20 A. Understood.
`
` 21 Q. Now, have you had your deposition taken before?
`
` 22 A. No. This is my first.
`
` 23 Q. I'll go over a couple ground rules that your
`
` 24 counsel has probably discussed with you. But just to make
`
` 25 sure we're on the same page, the court reporter here is
`
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`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 4 of 84
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`Page 5
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` 1 typing down everything we say. So to help keep the record
`
` 2 clean and to make her job easier I ask that you wait until I
`
` 3 finish asking my question before you give your answer, okay?
`
` 4 A. Okay.
`
` 5 Q. And I'll try my best to wait until you finish
`
` 6 answering the question before I ask the next question, okay?
`
` 7 A. Very good.
`
` 8 Q. Now, you were just sworn in. So you understand
`
` 9 you're under oath and you're required to give truthful
`
` 10 answers, all right?
`
` 11 A. I do.
`
` 12 Q. Is there any reason you can't give truthful answers
`
` 13 today?
`
` 14 A. No.
`
` 15 Q. Now, if I ask a question and you don't understand
`
` 16 the question, please just ask me to clarify, okay?
`
` 17 A. (Nodding head.)
`
` 18 Q. And if you don't ask for a clarification, I'll
`
` 19 assume that you understood the question, all right?
`
` 20 A. Okay.
`
` 21 Q. I anticipate that this is going to be a short
`
` 22 deposition, but if you need a break, just let me know. And
`
` 23 note that if we do take a break, the rules of this proceeding
`
` 24 mean that you cannot talk to your counsel about your
`
` 25 testimony during the break, okay?
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
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`(800) 899-7222
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`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 5 of 84
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` 1 A. Understood.
`
` 2 Q. One more thing. Because she's typing down
`
` 3 everything we're saying nonaudible responses like head nods
`
` 4 and uh-huh, uh-uh, those don't show up on the record. So yes
`
` 5 or no for an answer, okay?
`
` 6 A. Yes.
`
` 7 Q. I kind of want to talk about digital microform
`
` 8 imaging apparatuses generally. So this case or the patents
`
` 9 in this case relate to digital microform imaging apparatuses,
`
` 10 right?
`
` 11 A. Yes.
`
` 12 Q. And there are different types of microform,
`
` 13 including microfilm, ultrafiche, aperture cards, film, right?
`
` 14 A. Correct.
`
` 15 Q. And microfilm generally is an image of an original
`
` 16 document that's been reduced from its original size, right?
`
` 17 A. That's my understanding.
`
` 18 Q. And microfilm may come in different reduction
`
` 19 ratios, right?
`
` 20 A. Yes.
`
` 21 Q. So some are reduced seven times from the original
`
` 22 size, right?
`
` 23 A. Yes.
`
` 24 Q. And some can be reduced over a hundred times the
`
` 25 original size. Is that right?
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
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`(800) 899-7222
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`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 6 of 84
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`Anthony J. Senn
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`Page 7
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` 1 A. I'm not an expert in the microform media, just the
`
` 2 machinery that works with it. So I'd be speculating to guess
`
` 3 on a magnification ratio reduction.
`
` 4 Q. Okay. But there are different ranges of --
`
` 5 A. Certainly.
`
` 6 MS. DICKE: I'll just caution you to wait a second so
`
` 7 that I can object if you can.
`
` 8 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 9 Q. Another thing, too. Your counsel is going to
`
` 10 object at times during this proceeding. After the objection
`
` 11 you still need to answer my question unless she specifically
`
` 12 instructs you not to answer, okay?
`
` 13 A. Okay.
`
` 14 Q. So now a microfilm reader is a device that allows a
`
` 15 user to view the microfilm on a screen, correct?
`
` 16 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 17 THE WITNESS: It could be a screen. It could go to a
`
` 18 digital computer, could go -- yeah, I'd say to a screen, to a
`
` 19 computer, could go to a printer.
`
` 20 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 21 Q. Okay. So I guess I'd like to clarify that. A
`
` 22 microfilm reader allows a user to view the microfilm in real
`
` 23 time, right?
`
` 24 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would think so, but it could also
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
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`(800) 899-7222
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`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 7 of 84
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`Page 8
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` 1 be stored on a hard drive computer for viewing later.
`
` 2 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 3 Q. Yeah, I guess I would -- I'm trying to contrast a
`
` 4 microfilm reader that has the functionality to view the
`
` 5 microfilm in real time with a microfilm scanner that would
`
` 6 capture the microfilm and store it without allowing the user
`
` 7 to do it in real time. Do you understand the distinction
`
` 8 between those two?
`
` 9 A. I think I do. The mechanisms are very similar. So
`
` 10 whether I send the digital image to a screen or to a hard
`
` 11 drive magnetic storage, to me the mechanism's the same.
`
` 12 Q. Right. But you are aware of some devices that just
`
` 13 send it to the hard drive and do not have the capability to
`
` 14 connect it to the screen to view it in real time, correct?
`
` 15 A. I'm sure they probably exist. I don't have a lot
`
` 16 of direct experience with that.
`
` 17 Q. Okay. And now the purpose of these microfilm
`
` 18 reader devices is to magnify the microfilm so it's readable,
`
` 19 correct?
`
` 20 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. The microform is magnified such that
`
` 22 it can be readable. Assuming it's being sent to a screen it
`
` 23 could still be compressed or demagnified, I guess, if it's
`
` 24 going to a hard drive.
`
` 25
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 8 of 84
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`Page 9
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` 1 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 2 Q. Right. And to be readable the microfilm needs to
`
` 3 be in focus, right?
`
` 4 A. True.
`
` 5 Q. And to be in focus the microfilm reader will need
`
` 6 to focus for the specific reduction ratio of the microfilm
`
` 7 that you're using, correct?
`
` 8 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 9 THE WITNESS: There's two things -- magnification and
`
` 10 focus are two different things in my understanding. So you
`
` 11 would ideally need to do both.
`
` 12 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 13 Q. Right. So in a microfilm reader there's generally
`
` 14 a light source, right?
`
` 15 A. Yes.
`
` 16 Q. And the light source either shines a light through
`
` 17 the microfilm or reflects light off the microfilm, right?
`
` 18 A. Correct.
`
` 19 Q. And then that light is transmitted to a lens?
`
` 20 A. Typically, yes.
`
` 21 Q. And that lens then transmits the light to the
`
` 22 sensor, right?
`
` 23 A. That is correct.
`
` 24 Q. And the sensor captures the light and transfers
`
` 25 data to a computer or some sort of storage medium, right?
`
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`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 9 of 84
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`Page 10
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` 1 A. Could be, or a screen for viewing.
`
` 2 Q. So when the lens receives the light, it must focus
`
` 3 the light onto the sensor, right?
`
` 4 A. Yes, generally speaking, yes.
`
` 5 Q. And generally the function of a lens is to capture
`
` 6 rays of light and then converge them into a single point,
`
` 7 right?
`
` 8 A. From my understanding, yes.
`
` 9 Q. And for an image to be in focus that single point
`
` 10 must be at the sensor, right?
`
` 11 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, from my understanding. I'm not an
`
` 13 optics expert. I do mechanical hardware. That's my area of
`
` 14 expertise, but from my understanding that is correct.
`
` 15 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 16 Q. So then you would understand that if that light
`
` 17 converged before the sensor it would then diverge and the
`
` 18 image would be out of focus, right?
`
` 19 A. From my understanding that is correct.
`
` 20 Q. And then if the convergence point was beyond the
`
` 21 sensor, the image would also be out of focus, right?
`
` 22 A. That is correct from my understanding.
`
` 23 Q. Now, for the lens to properly focus the image onto
`
` 24 the sensor it must be in a proper position relative to the
`
` 25 light source and the sensor, correct?
`
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`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 10 of 84
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`Page 11
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` 1 A. Not so much the light source but the media to be
`
` 2 scanned.
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` 3 Q. The medical to be scanned. So --
`
` 4 A. The light source could be, you know, could change
`
` 5 in elevation assuming it's below the microform. But the
`
` 6 distance from the actual image, the microform, to the lens
`
` 7 I would say is important, yes.
`
` 8 Q. So the relative position between the microform, the
`
` 9 lens and the sensor is important to get a properly focused
`
` 10 image, correct?
`
` 11 A. Yes.
`
` 12 Q. Now, in optical systems there can be sort of course
`
` 13 and fine focusing procedures. Do you understand that?
`
` 14 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 15 THE WITNESS: I would assume so. As mentioned, I'm not
`
` 16 an optical expert --
`
` 17 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 18 Q. Right.
`
` 19 A. -- but it would make sense.
`
` 20 Q. So, for example, in like a microscope there's a
`
` 21 course adjustment knob that moves the lens a farther distance
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` 22 but doesn't obtain the precise focus, right?
`
` 23 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 24 THE WITNESS: In microscopes that I've used, yes, there
`
` 25 could be a course and fine adjustment, yes.
`
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`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 11 of 84
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`Page 12
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` 1 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 2 Q. And then the fine adjustment would ultimately focus
`
` 3 the image properly, right?
`
` 4 A. Yeah, but it has to do with the mechanics of the
`
` 5 system. The course knob is to get you in the general area --
`
` 6 Q. Right.
`
` 7 A. -- of focus, and perhaps that knob is geared such
`
` 8 that you can't nail the perfect image; hence, the fine
`
` 9 adjust, which is what I think you're saying.
`
` 10 Q. Exactly, yeah. So, similarly, in like a microfilm
`
` 11 reading device there can be some sort of course adjustment
`
` 12 that gets you within the range where you can do a fine focus
`
` 13 adjustment, right?
`
` 14 MS. DICKE: Object to form and outside the scope.
`
` 15 THE WITNESS: I guess that would be possible. As a
`
` 16 machine designer I would have to put two mechanisms in there
`
` 17 to do that job, and that may or may not be cost effective or
`
` 18 wise or whatever for other aspects.
`
` 19 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 20 Q. But ultimately you need some sort of ability to
`
` 21 adjust the focus finely, right?
`
` 22 A. Yes. So in my opinion a strong mechanical design
`
` 23 would be one with sufficient resolution to achieve fine
`
` 24 adjust, but the ability to speed it up so that we are not
`
` 25 waiting or we have the effect of a course adjustment because
`
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`Page 12 of 84
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`Page 13
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` 1 it saves time.
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` 2 Q. Okay. But you wouldn't be able to achieve focus
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` 3 without the fine adjustment, correct?
`
` 4 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 5 THE WITNESS: Again, I -- if I was designing the machine
`
` 6 to be cost effective, I would design it such that the focus
`
` 7 mechanism is capable of the fine resolution and then ideally
`
` 8 be able to speed it up to achieve what I think you're calling
`
` 9 the course adjustment which is just to be faster for the sake
`
` 10 of time.
`
` 11 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 12 Q. Now, we talked about how the relative position of
`
` 13 the microfilm, the lens and the sensor are important to
`
` 14 obtain focus, right?
`
` 15 A. Yes.
`
` 16 Q. So if the lens is out of position, the image would
`
` 17 not be properly focused, right?
`
` 18 A. Correct.
`
` 19 MS. DICKE: Object.
`
` 20 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 21 Q. And very small amounts of movement could take a
`
` 22 lens out of focus, right?
`
` 23 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 24 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm not an optics expert, but I
`
` 25 would assume with extreme magnification that small motions
`
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`Page 13 of 84
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`Page 14
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` 1 could possibly take it out of focus, yes, in general terms.
`
` 2 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 3 Q. Right. So movement of a lens a fraction of a
`
` 4 millimeter one way or the other could take the image out of
`
` 5 focus, right?
`
` 6 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 7 THE WITNESS: I can't speculate on the amount without
`
` 8 knowing the amount of magnification. For example, 2-to-1
`
` 9 magnification could probably allow for more error in lens
`
` 10 position than, let's say, 200-to-1, but I can't speculate on
`
` 11 a millimeter or an inch or a foot or a mile.
`
` 12 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 13 Q. So like the lens being out of position will affect
`
` 14 focus, the sensor being out of position will also affect the
`
` 15 focus of the image, correct?
`
` 16 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. And it could change the zoom or the
`
` 18 scope of the image as well.
`
` 19 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 20 Q. Okay. So if the sensor was moved a small distance
`
` 21 away from its proper position, the image would be out of
`
` 22 focus?
`
` 23 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 24 THE WITNESS: Again, I feel it's speculation from my
`
` 25 previous response. We would need to know much more of the
`
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`Page 14 of 84
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`Page 15
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` 1 detail of the amount of magnification, focus, reduction, much
`
` 2 more parameters to say that a slight motion could take it out
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` 3 of focus.
`
` 4 I might take you to an example of a
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` 5 35-millimeter camera taking a picture of a wall at 20 feet.
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` 6 If you walk an inch closer, is it still in focus? Probably.
`
` 7 If you walked a foot closer, is it out of -- I don't know.
`
` 8 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 9 Q. Okay. Handing you what's been previously marked as
`
` 10 Exhibit 1002, this is your declaration in the IRP proceeding
`
` 11 relating to the 279 patent. Do you see that?
`
` 12 A. Yes, I do.
`
` 13 Q. Could you turn to Page 37, please?
`
` 14 A. Okay.
`
` 15 Q. So in the last sentence of that top paragraph that
`
` 16 spans the two pages you say that in your opinion a wire or
`
` 17 more likely a stranded cable and a belt would have been
`
` 18 understood to be the same or at least predictable
`
` 19 replacements, right?
`
` 20 A. Yes.
`
` 21 Q. So you're saying that you could substitute a wire
`
` 22 for a belt?
`
` 23 MS. DICKE: Object to form and the document speaks for
`
` 24 itself.
`
` 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. I had to backtrack slightly, but
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`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 15 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 16
`
` 1 this is in reference to the Watanabe patent where he uses a
`
` 2 belt drive mechanism to convert rotational motion from an
`
` 3 electric motor to linear motion, and the belt is described in
`
` 4 the prior art as a wire. In parentheses in my disclosure I
`
` 5 added "or more likely a stranded cable," which is what I
`
` 6 think you're making reference to. So in either -- the
`
` 7 stranded cable wire or belt are perceived to be the same
`
` 8 mechanism by principle, a belt stretched around two or more
`
` 9 pulleys.
`
` 10 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 11 Q. Just to clarify, your opinion is that a wire and a
`
` 12 belt would have been understood to be the same, correct?
`
` 13 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 14 THE WITNESS: In this case, yes, because we are using it
`
` 15 to create motion from a motor. So, similarly, Fujinawa
`
` 16 patent prior art describes a lead screw as a worm. It's not
`
` 17 a small animal that we go fishing with or a small insect that
`
` 18 we go fishing with. The worm in his thing is a lead screw.
`
` 19 So in this case they call it a wire. I perceive it to be a
`
` 20 belt.
`
` 21 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 22 Q. So in this case you would understand that a belt
`
` 23 could be substituted for a wire, right?
`
` 24 A. Absolutely.
`
` 25 Q. So in cases where there's a motor connected to a
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 16 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 17
`
` 1 belt through a pulley mechanism you would assume that you
`
` 2 could substitute a belt for a wire, correct?
`
` 3 A. Yes.
`
` 4 Q. And, vice versa, you could substitute a wire for a
`
` 5 belt, correct?
`
` 6 A. Yes.
`
` 7 Q. They both perform the same function?
`
` 8 A. Yes, if designed right.
`
` 9 Q. Yeah. They both achieve the same functional
`
` 10 result?
`
` 11 A. Yes.
`
` 12 Q. And they have the same disadvantages?
`
` 13 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 14 THE WITNESS: Can you explain "disadvantages"?
`
` 15 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 16 Q. So I guess if you -- if there's a function you're
`
` 17 trying to perform that wasn't suitable for a belt, that same
`
` 18 function would not be suitable for a wire, correct?
`
` 19 A. Oh. Generally speaking, I think that's accurate.
`
` 20 Q. Yeah. And if there was a function you could
`
` 21 perform that would be suitable for a wire, that same function
`
` 22 would be suitable for a belt, right?
`
` 23 A. Again, I think the term "wire" was perhaps misused.
`
` 24 My estimation is that a wire is perceived to something that
`
` 25 carries electricity, and it may be solid or stranded. That
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 17 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 18
`
` 1 is why I put in my disclosure that, in parentheses, more
`
` 2 likely a stranded cable. Cables are meant to flex.
`
` 3 Much of the controls of the World War II
`
` 4 aircraft was all cables and pulleys where we effectuate
`
` 5 linear motions with rotary motions and vice versa to fly the
`
` 6 airplane.
`
` 7 So I just want to be clear that I'm not
`
` 8 talking about an electrical wire. We're talking about a
`
` 9 cable, a stranded cable, if you will, and not the type used
`
` 10 for electricity but the type used for winching, hauling,
`
` 11 pulling, moving loads.
`
` 12 Q. Understood. Have you heard of the term "backlash"?
`
` 13 A. Yes, I have.
`
` 14 Q. Is your understanding of backlash to be the motion
`
` 15 lost caused by gaps between parts?
`
` 16 A. Yeah, that's a fair statement, yes.
`
` 17 Q. So if you have two gears with teeth, the backlash
`
` 18 would occur when you switch directions on one of the gears
`
` 19 and there's a -- it triggers the gap. Is that right?
`
` 20 A. That is correct, yes.
`
` 21 Q. And backlash is a problem that can occur in pulley
`
` 22 systems, right?
`
` 23 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 24 THE WITNESS: No. Actually, that's one of the
`
` 25 advantages of a pulley system especially used with, let's
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 18 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 19
`
` 1 say, a timing belt which might have teeth on it. General
`
` 2 understanding of the timing belt has teeth. The components
`
` 3 are designed such to eliminate the backlash. So it could be
`
` 4 advantageous over a gear system for that very reason.
`
` 5 Q. So you're saying a pulley system has no backlash?
`
` 6 A. It can be designed to have no backlash, yes.
`
` 7 Q. Even when the pulley system reverses directions
`
` 8 it can have no backlash?
`
` 9 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 10 THE WITNESS: When a mechanism reverses direction is
`
` 11 when you will see the backlash.
`
` 12 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 13 Q. Right.
`
` 14 A. That's when it will become evident. So, yes. From
`
` 15 my earlier answer, a belt and pulley system is far more
`
` 16 advantageous over, let's say, gears because of its low or
`
` 17 nonexistent backlash.
`
` 18 Q. And you mentioned timing belts. You said you
`
` 19 understand that they are toothed. Is that right?
`
` 20 A. Generally speaking, if you were to, say, Google the
`
` 21 word "timing belt," you will see various images of belts with
`
` 22 teeth. That's not to say that teeth are a requirement of a
`
` 23 timing belt. I think that's just the accepted terminology.
`
` 24 Q. So there are smooth timing belts?
`
` 25 MS. DICKE: Object.
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 19 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 20
`
` 1 THE WITNESS: I would assume there are. The frictional
`
` 2 relationship of the belt to a pulley could preserve the
`
` 3 relationship between the belt and the pulley such that teeth
`
` 4 are not required.
`
` 5 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 6 Q. So in some instances a smooth timing belt would be
`
` 7 acceptable?
`
` 8 A. I would say I would have to know a lot more about
`
` 9 the application in that case. If there's other means of
`
` 10 feedback, let's say, in a control system to where we could
`
` 11 capture any error that might arise from the smooth belts, I
`
` 12 would say that it could be designed as such.
`
` 13 Q. Please keep your declaration handy because I think
`
` 14 we're going to be going back to it at some point, but I'm
`
` 15 handing you what has been previously marked as Exhibit 1005.
`
` 16 This is the Kokubo reference that you relied on in both your
`
` 17 declarations, right?
`
` 18 A. Yes, it is.
`
` 19 Q. You're familiar with this reference?
`
` 20 A. I am.
`
` 21 Q. Can you turn to Figure 1, please, inside of the
`
` 22 cover page?
`
` 23 A. Okay.
`
` 24 Q. And then this figure is described in the patent at
`
` 25 Page 44 if you need to refer to that.
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 20 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 21
`
` 1 A. Okay. I'm there.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. Now, this device is a scanner, correct?
`
` 3 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 4 THE WITNESS: Well, its title is that it's an image
`
` 5 reading device.
`
` 6 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 7 Q. Okay. You understand it to be performing a
`
` 8 scanning function, right?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
` 10 Q. And Figure 1, Element 6 is identified as a reading
`
` 11 unit?
`
` 12 MS. DICKE: Object to form. Is there a question?
`
` 13 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 14 Q. Do you understand Item 6 to be a reading unit?
`
` 15 A. I just want to check the document.
`
` 16 Q. And Item 7 is a motor, right?
`
` 17 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`
` 19 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 20 Q. And 8 is a drive pulley?
`
` 21 A. Yes.
`
` 22 Q. And 10 is a timing belt?
`
` 23 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`
` 25
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 21 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 22
`
` 1 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 2 Q. If you see 13, it's on the left side of the
`
` 3 Figure 1 and also on the top of Figure 2, that's a glass
`
` 4 plate, correct?
`
` 5 A. Yes, it is a glass plate.
`
` 6 Q. And if you turn to Figure 17 which is on Page 17,
`
` 7 this figure depicts the internal components of that Reading
`
` 8 Unit 6 that we just identified in Figure 1, correct?
`
` 9 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 10 THE WITNESS: That's my understanding, yes.
`
` 11 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 12 Q. And Item 40 is a lens tube. Page 46 describes
`
` 13 Figure 17.
`
` 14 A. Yes, lens tube.
`
` 15 Q. And 42 is a line sensor, right?
`
` 16 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, yes.
`
` 18 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 19 Q. So just going back to Figure 1 and 2, in operation
`
` 20 of this device film is placed on top of the Glass Plate 13,
`
` 21 right?
`
` 22 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, film or whatever image is desired to
`
` 24 be scanned.
`
` 25
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 22 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 23
`
` 1 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 2 Q. Right. The device then focuses the image that's
`
` 3 desired to be scanned, right?
`
` 4 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 5 THE WITNESS: I would assume. I don't recall if this
`
` 6 reference discusses the theory of operation. If this is
`
` 7 similar to a flatbed scanner type that we were accustomed to
`
` 8 several years ago, the focus could be predetermined.
`
` 9 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 10 Q. So after the device achieves focus, whether it's
`
` 11 predetermined or determined by the device, the reading unit
`
` 12 then moves across the image. Is that right?
`
` 13 A. That's my understanding.
`
` 14 Q. In the A to B direction that's identified on
`
` 15 Figure 1?
`
` 16 A. Yes.
`
` 17 Q. And the line sensor captures the image as the
`
` 18 reading unit moves across, right?
`
` 19 A. Yes.
`
` 20 Q. And a line sensor is a one-dimensional sensor in
`
` 21 that there's a single row of pixels, right?
`
` 22 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 23 THE WITNESS: That is my understanding, yes.
`
` 24 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 25 Q. So the line sensor would capture the image row by
`
`Gramann Reporting, Ltd.
`
`(800) 899-7222
`
`e-IMAGEDATA CORP. EXHIBIT 2007
`e-ImageData v. Digital Check
`IPR2017-00178
`Page 23 of 84
`
`
`
`7/14/2017
`
`Anthony J. Senn
`
`Page 24
`
` 1 row, right?
`
` 2 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if it would be row by column
`
` 4 but, yes, a line sensor requires either movement of the
`
` 5 sensor or movement of the image to be scanned in order to end
`
` 6 up with a two-dimensional image.
`
` 7 BY MR. PIERY:
`
` 8 Q. And in this case it's movement of the sensor,
`
` 9 right?
`
` 10 A. Yes.
`
` 11 Q. And when the line sensor is moving across the
`
` 12 image, it's moving at a constant speed to capture the image.
`
` 13 Is that right?
`
` 14 MS. DICKE: Object to form.
`
` 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know that. I don't believe that's
`
` 16 in the document. The scan rate of the sensor could be
`
` 17 coupled to the speed of the sensor. So it doesn't require
`
` 18 tha
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