·1· · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`·4· · · · ·---------------------------------
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·SKECHERS U.S.A., INC.,
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · vs.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · NIKE, INC.,
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner
`
`10· · · · ·----------------------------------
`
`11· ·CASE NOS.· IPR2017-00620 (US D723,783)
`
`12· · · · · · · · ·IPR2017-00621 (US D723,781)
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16· · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF ALAN BALL
`
`17· · · · · · ·THURSDAY, JANUARY 18, 2018
`
`18· · · · · · · · 9:00 A.M. - 6:29 P.M.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·BANNER & WITCOFF, LTD.
`
`20· · · · · · · · · 28 STATE STREET
`
`21· · · · · · · ·BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS
`
`22
`
`23· ·Reported by:· Sandra A. Deschaine, CSR, RPR,
`
`24· ·CLR, RSA
`
`25· ·Job No. LA-156637
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.1
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·2· · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`·4· · · · ·---------------------------------
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·SKECHERS U.S.A., INC.,
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · vs.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · NIKE, INC.,
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner
`
`10· · · · ·----------------------------------
`
`11· ·CASE NOS.· IPR2017-00620 (US D723,783)
`
`12· · · · · · · · ·IPR2017-00621 (US D723,781)
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16· · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF ALAN BALL
`
`17· · · · · · ·THURSDAY, JANUARY 18, 2018
`
`18· · · · · · · · 9:00 A.M. - 6:29 P.M.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·BANNER & WITCOFF, LTD.
`
`20· · · · · · · · · 28 STATE STREET
`
`21· · · · · · · ·BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS
`
`22
`
`23· ·Reported by:· Sandra A. Deschaine, CSR, RPR,
`
`24· ·CLR, RSA
`
`25· ·Job No. LA-156637
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.1
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
`
`·2· ·ON BEHALF OF NIKE INC.:
`
`·3· ·BANNER & WITCOFF, LTC.
`
`·4· · · ·Audra Eidem Heinze, Esquire
`
`·5· · · ·Erik Maurer, Esquire
`
`·6· · · ·Ten South Wacker Drive, Suite 3000
`
`·7· · · ·Chicago, Illinois 60606-7407
`
`·8· · · ·312.463.5000
`
`·9· · · ·aheinz@bannerwitcoff.com
`
`10· · · ·amaurer@bannerwitcoff.com
`
`11
`
`12· ·ON BEHALF OF SKECHERS U.S.A., INC.:
`
`13· ·IRELL & MANELLA LLP
`
`14· · · · · Samuel Lu, Esquire
`
`15· · · · · Elliot Chen, Esquire
`
`16· · · · ·1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900
`
`17· · · · ·Los Angeles, California 90067-4276
`
`18· · · · ·310.203.7199
`
`19· · · · ·slu@irell.com
`
`20· · · · ·echen@irell.com
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.2
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
`
`·2· ·EXHIBIT· · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·3· ·Exhibit 511· ·Notice of Deposition of Al 6
`· · · · · · · · · ·Ball for IPR 2071-00621
`·4
`· · ·Exhibit 512· ·Notice of Deposition of Al 6
`·5· · · · · · · · ·Ball for IPR 2017-00620
`
`·6· ·Exhibit 513· ·Declaration of Allan Ball· ·6
`· · · · · · · · · ·in Support of the Patent
`·7· · · · · · · · ·Owner Nike Incorpoated's
`· · · · · · · · · ·Response to Petitioner
`·8· · · · · · · · ·Skechers U.S.A.
`· · · · · · · · · ·Incorporated's Petition for
`·9· · · · · · · · ·Intra Partes Review of U.S.
`· · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. D723,783, Second
`10· · · · · · · · ·Petition
`
`11· ·Exhibit 514· ·Declaration of Alan Ball in 6
`· · · · · · · · · ·Support of Patent Owner
`12· · · · · · · · ·Nike Incorporated's
`· · · · · · · · · ·Response to petitioner's
`13· · · · · · · · ·Skechers U.S.A
`· · · · · · · · · ·Incorporated's Petition for
`14· · · · · · · · ·Intra Partes Review of U.S.
`· · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. D723,781, Second
`15· · · · · · · · ·Petition
`
`16· ·Exhibit 515· ·Document· 2040, Nike's· · · 6
`· · · · · · · · · ·response to petitioner's
`17· · · · · · · · ·Skechers U.S.A.'s pettion
`· · · · · · · · · ·for intra partes review,
`18· · · · · · · · ·IPR 2017-00621
`
`19· ·Exhibit 516· ·Nike Exhibit 2021· · · · · ·152
`
`20· ·Exhibit 517· ·Yellow Nike shoe· · · · · · 241
`
`21· ·Exhibit 518· ·Red Nike shoe· · · · · · · ·242
`
`22· ·Exhibit 519· ·Chartreuse Nike shoe· · · · 242
`
`23· ·Exhibit 520· ·EUIPO document, Skechers· · 264
`· · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 1003
`24
`
`25· ·(Exhibits continued.)
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.3
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · ·INDEX (continued)
`
`·2· ·EXHIBIT· · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·3· ·Exhibit 521· ·Skechers EX 1005, P.1· · · ·272
`
`·4· ·Exhibit 522· ·Declaration and· · · · · · ·278
`· · · · · · · · · ·Certification, Skechers
`·5· · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 1009
`
`·6· ·Exhibit 523· ·Declaration of Alan Ball in 323
`· · · · · · · · · ·Support of Harvard
`·7· · · · · · · · ·Freight's Oppositon to
`· · · · · · · · · ·Snap-On's Motion for
`·8· · · · · · · · ·Preliminary Injunction
`
`·9· ·Exhibit 524· ·Declaration of Alan Ball· · 324
`· · · · · · · · · ·Regarding Claim
`10· · · · · · · · ·Construction of U.S.
`· · · · · · · · · ·Patents Nos. D577,163,
`11· · · · · · · · ·D668,823, and D668,010
`
`12· ·Exhibit 525· ·Rebuttal Declaration of· · ·326
`· · · · · · · · · ·Alan Ball Regarding Claim
`13· · · · · · · · ·Construction of U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · ·Nos. D577,163; D668,823;
`14· · · · · · · · ·and D668,410
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.4
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · ·January 18, 2018
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · 9:00 a.m.
`
`·3· · · · · Deposition of Alan Ball, held at the
`
`·4· ·offices of Banner & Witcoff, 28 State
`
`·5· ·Street, Boston, Massachusetts, pursuant to
`
`·6· ·Agreement before Sandra A. Deschaine,
`
`·7· ·Registered Professional Reporter, Certified
`
`·8· ·LiveNote Reporter, Real-time Services
`
`·9· ·Administrator and Notary Public within and
`
`10· ·for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.5
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`·2· ·(Exhibit 511, Notice of Deposition of Al
`
`·3· ·Ball for IPR 2071-00621, marked for
`
`·4· ·identification.)
`
`·5· ·(Exhibit 512, Notice of Deposition of Al
`
`·6· ·Ball for IPR 2017-00620, marked for
`
`·7· ·identification.)
`
`·8· ·(Exhibit 513, Declaration of Allan Ball in
`
`·9· ·Support of the Patent Owner Nike
`
`10· ·Incorporated's Response to Petitioner
`
`11· ·Skechers U.S.A. Incorporated's Petition for
`
`12· ·Inter Partes Review of U.S. Patent No.
`
`13· ·D723,783, Second Petition, marked for
`
`14· ·identification.)
`
`15· ·(Exhibit 514, declaration of Alan Ball in
`
`16· ·Support of Patent Owner Nike Incorporated's
`
`17· ·Response to petitioner's Skechers U.S.A
`
`18· ·Incorporated's Petition for Inter Partes
`
`19· ·Review of U.S. Patent No. D723,781, Second
`
`20· ·Petition, marked for identification.)
`
`21· ·(Exhibit 515, Document· 2040, Nike's
`
`22· ·Response to Petitioner's Skechers U.S.A.'s
`
`23· ·Petition for Inter Partes Review,· IPR
`
`24· ·2017-00621, marked for identification.)
`
`25· · · · · · · ALAN BALL, Deponent, having first
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.6
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· ·been satisfactorily identified by the
`
`·2· ·production of his Massachusetts driver's
`
`·3· ·license and duly sworn by the Notary Public,
`
`·4· ·was examined and testified as follows:
`
`·5
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`
`·7· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Mr. Ball.· My name
`
`·9· ·is Samuel Lu at the firm of Irel & Manella.
`
`10· ·I'm going to be representing Skechers today
`
`11· ·and taking your deposition.· With me is
`
`12· ·Elliot Chen.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·MR. LU:· Will counsel for Nike
`
`14· · · · ·identify themselves.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Audra Eidem Heinze
`
`16· · · · ·from Banner & Witcoff representing Nike,
`
`17· · · · ·and with me is Erik Maurer, also of
`
`18· · · · ·Banner & Witcoff.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. LU:· Thank you.· One of the
`
`20· · · · ·things I'd like to do before we get
`
`21· · · · ·started is to take care of a little bit
`
`22· · · · ·of housekeeping.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·Before the deposition started, I
`
`24· · · · ·marked a few exhibits, and I just wanted
`
`25· · · · ·to get that on the record.
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.7
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·I've marked Exhibit 511 the Notice
`
`·2· ·of Deposition of Al Ball for IPR
`
`·3· ·2071-00621, a copy of which I'm handing
`
`·4· ·to you and to your counsel.
`
`·5· · · · ·I've also marked as Exhibit 512
`
`·6· ·the Notice of Deposition of Al Ball for
`
`·7· ·IPR 2017-00620, a copy of which I'm
`
`·8· ·handing to you and to your counsel.
`
`·9· · · · ·I've also marked as Exhibit 513 a
`
`10· ·copy of the Declaration of Allan Ball in
`
`11· ·Support of the Patent Owner Nike
`
`12· ·Incorporated's Response to Petitioner
`
`13· ·Skechers U.S.A. Incorporated's Petition
`
`14· ·for Inter Partes Review of U.S. Patent
`
`15· ·No. D723,783, Second Petition, a copy of
`
`16· ·which I am handing to you and to your
`
`17· ·counsel.
`
`18· · · · · · ·Also marked as Exhibit 514, a
`
`19· ·document titled Declaration of Alan Ball
`
`20· ·in Support of Patent Owner Nike
`
`21· ·Incorporated's Response to Petitioner's
`
`22· ·Skechers U.S.A Incorporated's Petition
`
`23· ·for Inter Partes Review of U.S. Patent
`
`24· ·No. D723,781, Second Petition, a copy of
`
`25· ·which I am handing to you and also to
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.8
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·your counsel.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·Lastly, I have marked as Exhibit
`
`·3· · · · ·515 a document that was 2040 in
`
`·4· · · · ·connection with Nike's response to
`
`·5· · · · ·Petitioner's Skechers U.S.A.'s Petition
`
`·6· · · · ·for Inter Partes review, and that was
`
`·7· · · · ·for IPR 2017-00621.· I am handing a copy
`
`·8· · · · ·of that to you and to your counsel.
`
`·9· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Now, Mr. Ball have you seen
`
`11· ·Exhibit 511 or 512 before today?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I believe I have.· I think
`
`13· ·counsel sent me over the Notice of
`
`14· ·Deposition, and I'm assuming they were the
`
`15· ·same as for these, for this date.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you have an
`
`17· ·understanding today that you are being
`
`18· ·deposed by Skechers in connection with -- in
`
`19· ·connection with IPRs 2017-621 and 2017-620,
`
`20· ·correct?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· 621 for the '781 patent and
`
`22· ·620 for the '783.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·Now, Mr. Ball, have you been
`
`24· ·deposed before?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.9
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·And how many times have you been
`
`·2· ·deposed before?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·I don't know exactly.· Probably
`
`·4· ·around a dozen times.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·And have you ever testified at
`
`·6· ·trial or any other proceeding before a judge
`
`·7· ·or a jury?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·How many times?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·A couple times.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recollect the names of the
`
`12· ·trials or other proceedings in which you
`
`13· ·testified before a judge or a jury?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·And what were those names?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Apple and Samsung, and the other
`
`17· ·one was a -- it was a District Court hearing,
`
`18· ·preliminary hearing, and I don't remember the
`
`19· ·name of the company.· It's a case that
`
`20· ·involves -- phone cases, but I don't recall
`
`21· ·the name.· They asked me to be at that
`
`22· ·hearing to speak to the special master.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·And in the Apple -- the Samsung
`
`24· ·case, did you testify on behalf of Apple or
`
`25· ·Samsung?
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.10
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· ·Apple.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·And was Apple -- strike that.
`
`·3· · · · · · · And that was a design patent
`
`·4· ·case?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·What was the Apple v. Samsung
`
`·7· ·case -- what was the subject matter of the
`
`·8· ·Apple v. Samsung case in which you testified?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·I think that this was in the UK.
`
`10· ·It was a registered community design, and I
`
`11· ·was given a list of questions by the judge to
`
`12· ·opine upon related to that RCD.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·And in the phone case that you
`
`14· ·testified on, do you recollect what the
`
`15· ·subject matter of that case was?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·I believe the subject matter
`
`17· ·was -- I don't know formally what that was
`
`18· ·called.· I'm not a lawyer, but my
`
`19· ·understanding is that they were discussing --
`
`20· ·the special master was asking questions about
`
`21· ·the claim of the design patent and whether or
`
`22· ·not it would benefit from a claim
`
`23· ·construction by the court.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·And do you -- do you recall --
`
`25· ·strike that.
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.11
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · Were you testifying as an expert
`
`·2· ·witness in that case?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·And do you -- and which party were
`
`·5· ·you testifying -- on who's behalf were you
`
`·6· ·testifying?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Patent owner.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·And did you reach a conclusion
`
`·9· ·regarding whether claim construction would be
`
`10· ·appropriate in that case?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·I was not asked -- I don't think I
`
`12· ·was asked to opine on that as much as I was
`
`13· ·asked to give my point of view as a person
`
`14· ·with experience designing that kind of a
`
`15· ·product and how a designer of ordinary skill
`
`16· ·in the art would interpret the drawings.· And
`
`17· ·I was asked to come to the stand and explain
`
`18· ·some things for the special master.· I don't
`
`19· ·recall -- I don't recall much beyond that.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, we may discuss that a
`
`21· ·little bit later.
`
`22· · · · · · · But for now, I understand that you
`
`23· ·testified at deposition a number of times,
`
`24· ·but I wanted to go over some sort of simple
`
`25· ·ground rules just to make sure that there are
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.12
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· ·no misunderstandings.
`
`·2· · · · · · · You understand, of course, that
`
`·3· ·you are under oath?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.· And you understand
`
`·6· ·that the oath has the same effect as if you
`
`·7· ·were testifying in a court of law?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you understand that you
`
`10· ·need to verbalize your answers, and I'll
`
`11· ·attempt to catch you when you don't, but
`
`12· ·hopefully you'll be able to say "Yes," "No,"
`
`13· ·or whatever other answer you provide instead
`
`14· ·of a simple nod or shake of the head.
`
`15· · · · · · · Will you attempt to do that?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Absolutely.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You understand that you are
`
`18· ·obligated to tell the truth to the best of
`
`19· ·your ability?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·And you understand the testimony
`
`22· ·that you give today may be read or utilized
`
`23· ·in the IPRs that we previously referenced?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· ·Now, in this deposition, I'm going
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.13
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· ·to ask you a series of questions to find out
`
`·2· ·more about the opinions you provided in your
`
`·3· ·declarations.· I'd like you to give me your
`
`·4· ·best understanding and recollection of the
`
`·5· ·matters that I've asked about.
`
`·6· · · · · · · Will you do that?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·And if there's any question that
`
`·9· ·you do not hear or understand at any time
`
`10· ·during this deposition, please ask me to
`
`11· ·restate the question.· I'll be happy to do
`
`12· ·so.
`
`13· · · · · · · Will you do that?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·And you understand that if you
`
`16· ·need a break, you may simply ask for one?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Mr. Ball, is there any reason why
`
`19· ·you cannot give your best testimony today?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did you bring any
`
`22· ·documents or things related to this case with
`
`23· ·you today?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· ·Mr. Ball, when were you first
`
`Sketchers Ex 1031-p.14
`Sketchers v Nike
`IPR2017-00620
`
`
`
`·1· ·contacted regarding this matter?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·Wow.· I don't recall.· It was a
`
`·3· ·while ago.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Maybe let's approach it
`
`·5· ·differently.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·May I ask a question?
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Can you define "this matter"?
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·So this matter -- so let's -- I'm
`
`10· ·going to put before you two previously marked
`
`11· ·exhibits, Exhibit 502, which is U.S. design
`
`12· ·patent D723,781 and Exhibit 503, which is
`
`13· ·U.S. design patent D723,783.
`
`14· · · · · · · Do you recognize those two
`
`15· ·patents?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·And are those two patents the
`
`18· ·subject of your declarations, Exhibits 513
`
`19· ·and 514?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·So let me ask the question I asked
`
`22· ·previously in a little bit more -- with a
`
`23· ·little bit more specificity.
`
`24· · · · · · · When were you first approached
`
`25· ·regarding acting as an expert in connection
`
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`·1· ·with either of these two patents?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·For the purpose of -- are you
`
`·3· ·asking me for the purpose of the --
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Let me ask an easier question.
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Of this --
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·No.· No.· I'm not.· I'm asking you
`
`·7· ·the following question:· When was the first
`
`·8· ·time you saw these patents?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·I don't recall exactly.· I'd be
`
`10· ·hazarding a guess, but it was probably, I
`
`11· ·don't know, a year, year and a half ago,
`
`12· ·something like that, I think.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall who first
`
`14· ·contacted you regarding these patents?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·I believe it was Erik Maurer.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·Prior to Mr. Maurer contacting you
`
`17· ·regarding these patents, had you known
`
`18· ·Mr. Maurer?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·Prior to Mr. Maurer contacting you
`
`21· ·regarding these patents, had you known of the
`
`22· ·firm Banner &· Witcoff?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·And in what capacity did you know
`
`25· ·of the firm Banner & Witcoff?
`
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`·1· · · · ·A.· ·I became aware of Banner & Witcoff
`
`·2· ·over the course of my working on cases as an
`
`·3· ·expert.· I'd seen presentations regarding,
`
`·4· ·you know, like a design day, at the USPTO,
`
`·5· ·that were presented by an employee of Banner
`
`·6· ·& Witcoff, among other companies, that, you
`
`·7· ·know, have attorneys giving presentations
`
`·8· ·there.· So I just understood that they were a
`
`·9· ·company that did patent law or design patent
`
`10· ·law, and I was aware of them as one of the
`
`11· ·major players.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Prior to being contacted by
`
`13· ·Mr. Maurer, had you ever had the opportunity
`
`14· ·to do any work with Banner & Witcoff?
`
`15· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·I don't remember doing anything
`
`17· ·before speaking to Erik for the first time.
`
`18· ·Yeah, I don't recall anything before that.
`
`19· ·Although I did know of the firm.
`
`20· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Prior to being contacted by
`
`22· ·Mr. Maurer, had you done any work for Nike or
`
`23· ·Converse?
`
`24· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·No.· May I ask -- or add -- I
`
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`·1· ·mean, I also knew of Banner & Witcoff because
`
`·2· ·on another case I worked with an attorney by
`
`·3· ·the name of David Witcoff, and he informed me
`
`·4· ·that his father worked at Banner & nWitcoff.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·So, Mr. Ball, would you state the
`
`·7· ·name of your current employer?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· It's Alan Ball Industrial
`
`·9· ·Design.· For short, ABID.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·And can you describe the business
`
`11· ·of Alan Ball Industrial Design?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· ·I'm a product design
`
`13· ·consultant, and ABID is a product design and
`
`14· ·development company, and I do industrial
`
`15· ·design and product development for a variety
`
`16· ·of clients.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Does Alan Ball Industrial Design
`
`18· ·also do expert witness and/or litigation
`
`19· ·consulting?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I started doing that I think
`
`21· ·in 2012 or -- or a little bit before then.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·What percentage, roughly, would --
`
`23· ·of Alan Ball Industrial Design's revenue is
`
`24· ·derived from expert witness, or litigation,
`
`25· ·or intellectual consulting work?
`
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`·1· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·Over what period of time?
`
`·3· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Since 2012.· Actually, let's ask
`
`·5· ·that for last year, 2017.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Same objection.
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·I don't know 2017 because I
`
`·8· ·haven't done my year-end books yet.· I've got
`
`·9· ·an appointment on the calendar with my
`
`10· ·accountant to do that.· So I don't know how
`
`11· ·to answer that question.
`
`12· · · · · · · Are you looking for hours, or are
`
`13· ·you looking for revenue?
`
`14· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Revenue, if you -- but if you can
`
`16· ·provide an estimate either for hours or
`
`17· ·revenue, that would be fine.
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·For 2017, probably -- it was a
`
`19· ·very busy year for expert work, so probably,
`
`20· ·at this point, 75 percent of that work was
`
`21· ·expert work.· But the actual -- my time spent
`
`22· ·designing versus doing expert work is a
`
`23· ·little different because at this point a lot
`
`24· ·of the design work is -- what's the word? --
`
`25· ·entrepreneurial.· So I'm working at a reduced
`
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`·1· ·or no fee for an opportunity to, you know,
`
`·2· ·commercialize or, you know, earn revenue down
`
`·3· ·the road by commercializing the product.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·So I guess the word I was looking
`
`·6· ·at is speculative.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Are there any employees of Alan
`
`·8· ·Ball Industrial Design, either full-time or
`
`·9· ·part-time, other than yourself?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·Not presently, other than, you
`
`11· ·know, casual labor, like bookkeeping,
`
`12· ·accountant, and some admin.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·So would it be fair to say that
`
`14· ·the sole employee who engages in either
`
`15· ·product design consulting, litigation
`
`16· ·consulting, expert witness work, or
`
`17· ·intellectual property work would be yourself?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·That's how it is today.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Was it any different at any point
`
`20· ·in the past?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·And when was it different?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Oh, when I started off, I had
`
`24· ·probably half a dozen folks:· Marketing, two
`
`25· ·engineers, graphic designer, design person,
`
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`·1· ·all working for me in ABID.· And I think over
`
`·2· ·time, particularly when, you know, the
`
`·3· ·economy slowed down greatly at the end of
`
`·4· ·2008 or 2009, I made a conscious decision
`
`·5· ·that I wanted to get back to basics.· And so
`
`·6· ·I reduced the size of the firm; and now, you
`
`·7· ·know, it's pretty much just me.· And then if
`
`·8· ·I need to have additional resources for my
`
`·9· ·projects, I have a network of people that I
`
`10· ·partner with or contract.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Prior to being contacted by
`
`12· ·Mr. Maurer, had you heard of the patents that
`
`13· ·are before you?
`
`14· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·No, I don't believe I had.
`
`16· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Now, since being retained --
`
`18· ·strike that.
`
`19· · · · · · · So were you retained in connection
`
`20· ·with this matter by Banner & Witcoff?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·And since being retained by Banner
`
`23· ·& Witcoff, what have you done in connection
`
`24· ·with this case?
`
`25· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
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`·1· · · · ·A.· ·I wrote this declaration, and I
`
`·2· ·did all of the work or analysis necessary to
`
`·3· ·do that.
`
`·4· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·So you reviewed the patents?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·You reviewed -- which patents did
`
`·8· ·you review in connection with this matter?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·Can you define "this matter"
`
`10· ·again?
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· For purposes of our
`
`12· ·deposition today, "this matter" will be any
`
`13· ·work that you've done relating to the '781
`
`14· ·patent, which is Exhibit 502, or the '783
`
`15· ·patent, which is Exhibit 503.
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· Could you repeat the
`
`17· ·question?
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· Let me -- I'll ask it in a
`
`19· ·slightly different matter.· So for purposes
`
`20· ·of this matter, you reviewed the patent in
`
`21· ·Exhibit 502 and the patent in Exhibit 503,
`
`22· ·correct?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, '781 and '783.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Other than the '781 patent and the
`
`25· ·'783 patent in connection with your analysis
`
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`·1· ·of these two patents, did you review any
`
`·2· ·other patents or patent applications?
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·And what were those?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Well, I don't know if I can, off
`
`·8· ·the top of my head, tell you everything I've
`
`·9· ·looked at, but I did add a section called
`
`10· ·"Materials Considered" in my declaration in
`
`11· ·which I describe or list all of the documents
`
`12· ·I considered in writing the report.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·So other than the list of
`
`14· ·materials considered provided in your
`
`15· ·declaration, Exhibit 513, or your
`
`16· ·declaration, Exhibit 514, were there any
`
`17· ·other patents or patent applications that you
`
`18· ·reviewed in connection with your work
`
`19· ·relating to the '781 patent or the '783
`
`20· ·patent?
`
`21· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·I don't know of any.· I tried to
`
`23· ·put everything in the materials considered.
`
`24· ·If I missed something, I don't know of it.
`
`25· ·But I think I added everything I could in the
`
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`·1· ·materials considered section.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So would it be fair to say
`
`·4· ·that the materials considered section
`
`·5· ·includes all of the materials that you
`
`·6· ·recollect right now as being important to
`
`·7· ·your opinion in your declaration?
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·I don't think I've made any
`
`10· ·judgment on which ones are important and
`
`11· ·which aren't.· These are the documents I
`
`12· ·reviewed to write my declaration and do the
`
`13· ·analysis that I describe in my declaration.
`
`14· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Would you have intentionally left
`
`16· ·out any materials that would have been
`
`17· ·relevant or important to your opinion from
`
`18· ·the list of materials considered?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Can you repeat the question?
`
`21· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· Would you have left out any
`
`23· ·document that you would have considered to be
`
`24· ·important in authoring your opinion from the
`
`25· ·list of materials considered?
`
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`·1· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Same objection.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·Not to my knowledge.
`
`·3· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·How was the declarations in
`
`·5· ·Exhibit 513 and 514 prepared?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.· And
`
`·7· · · · ·just to reiterate the parties'
`
`·8· · · · ·understanding of Rule 26 and its
`
`·9· · · · ·application with respect to drafting of
`
`10· · · · ·reports.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·MR. LU:· Yes.
`
`12· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Just to address Ms. Heinze's
`
`14· ·objection.
`
`15· · · · · · · Was the -- who wrote -- who did
`
`16· ·the physical act of writing the declarations
`
`17· ·in Exhibit 513 and 514?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·I did.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·And was that draft sent to the
`
`20· ·attorneys at Banner & Witcoff prior to your
`
`21· ·signing the declarations in Exhibits 513 and
`
`22· ·514?
`
`23· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Same objections.
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· We looked at drafts as the
`
`25· ·report was being written and edited.
`
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`·1· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you were the primary
`
`·3· ·author of the declarations in Exhibits 513
`
`·4· ·and 514?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I was.· There was one section
`
`·6· ·in which I relied on counsel to help supply
`
`·7· ·references to legal principles, because I'm
`
`·8· ·not a lawyer, and I needed their insight to
`
`·9· ·describe the law that I was being asked to
`
`10· ·apply.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·That section that you just
`
`12· ·referred to referencing legal principles,
`
`13· ·would that happen to be Section 4 of your
`
`14· ·expert declaration in Exhibits 513 and 514?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I believe so.· I think the --
`
`16· ·I had a basic understanding of some of the
`
`17· ·law, and I relied on them to help me cite the
`
`18· ·law properly.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Who provided you with the
`
`20· ·materials that you reviewed in connection
`
`21· ·with the preparation of Exhibits 513 and 514,
`
`22· ·your declarations?
`
`23· · · · · · · ·MS. HEINZE:· Object to form.
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·The materials that would be listed
`
`25· ·in the materials considered section?
`
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`·1· ·BY MR. LU:
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·No.· Any materials that you --
`
`·3· ·well, let's start with the materials
`
`·4· ·considered section.· Who provide you with
`
`·5· ·those materials?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·I think most of them were provided
`
`·7· ·to me by counsel, although I think some of
`
`·8· ·the patents I looked at during the case I
`
`·9· ·probably downloaded from either the USPTO or
`
`10· ·Google patents.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·And when you refer to the patents
`
`12· ·you looked at, which patents -- are you
`
`13· ·talking about the patents that are listed in
`
`14· ·the list of materials considered?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·That or the -- there were patents
`
`16· ·that were in the petitioner's decision and
`
`17· ·the PTAB decision that I might have
`
`18· ·downloaded off Google patents or the USPTO
`
`19· ·website.· I think also that might have been
`
`20· ·one of the exhibits in some of the documents
`
`21· ·that counsel gave me, but I might have
`
`22· ·downloaded them directly from, you know,
`
`23· ·either the USPTO site or the Google patent
`
`24· ·site.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· ·Other than the materials that are
`
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`·1· ·in the list of materials considered or are
`
`·2· ·referenced in materials that are in the list
`
`·3· ·of materials considered, do you recollect
`
`·4· ·downloading any other patents, patent
`
`·5· ·applications, or design registrations?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·No, I don't recall any others. I
`
`·7· ·think this is pretty complete.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·A number of these are just
`
`10· ·described as exhibits and numbers, Exhibit
`
`11· ·2005, 2006.· As I sit here today, I can't
`
`12· ·associate which document that particular one
`
`13· ·was, you know.· But at the time I wrote the
`
`14· ·report, I reviewed those to confirm that
`
`15· ·those are the ones I looked at.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·In addition to looking at the
`
`17· ·patents, applications, and registrations that
`
`18· ·are listed in your list of materials
`
`19· ·considered -- that were referenced in a
`
`20· ·document that is in the list of materials
`
`21· ·considered, did you look at other materials
`
`22· ·for purposes of preparing your opinion?
`
`23· · · · · · · Actually, you know what, let me
`
`24· ·ask the question a little differently rather
`
`25· ·than making this a memory test for you.
`
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`·1· · · · · · · Did look at -- did you consider
`
`·2· ·the prosecution histories of the '781 and
`
`·3· ·'783 patents?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· ·Portions of them I think I looked
`
`·5· ·at.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·What --
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Well, one of the things that comes
`
`·8· ·to mind is the images in the patents are
`
`·9· ·pixelated to a degree in which some of the
`
`10· ·design is a little bit hard to make out.· And
`
`11· ·I understand that the images that were filed
`
`12· ·by the patent owner were available, and I
`
`13· ·looked at those.· And I understood it was
`
`14· ·correct for me to look at those to see the
`
`15· ·design in greater fidelity.
`
`16· · · · · · · So I don't know if you would
`
`17· ·characterize that as part of the prosecution
`
`18· ·history or whether that's just something
`
`19· ·intrinsic to the design patent that you can
`
`20· ·look at, but I did look at those images.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·So you indicated that there were
`
`22· ·images in the design patents that were hard
`
`23· ·to make out.· Can you identify which images
`
`24· ·in either Exhibits 502 or 503 that you found
`
`25· ·hard to make out?
`
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`·1· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I don't know if that's
`
`·2· ·exactly the term that I used.· I just found
`
`·3· ·that they're hard to make out.· I just found
`
`·4· ·that the images in '781, particularly Figure
`
`·5· ·2 -- particularly Figure 2, were -- there's a
`
`·6· ·lot of rasterization in the area that is
`
`·7· ·claimed.· And I was particularly interested
`
`·8· ·in that because the decision allowing the
`
`·9· ·review from the PTO alluded to the fact that
`
`10· ·there is some details that Mr. Anders called
`
`11· ·attention to that they didn't see and didn't
`
`12· ·consider part of the design, and I can
`
`13· ·clearly see them, and I went to those images
`
`14· ·to see if those were more helpful and they
`
`15· ·are.· They're much clearer, and you can see
`
`16· ·the details that may not be as clear in the
`
`17· ·patent, depending on, you know, how it's
`
`18· ·printed.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Other than Figure 2 of the '781
`
`20· ·patent, were there any other images in either
`
`21· ·the '781 or '783 patent that you found to be
`
`22· ·not as clear or difficult to make out?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· The Figure 3 and the
`
`24· ·Figure 1 figures al
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