· ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`· · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`LSI CORPORATION and AVAGO TECHNOLOGIES U.S., INC.
`· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`
`· · ·REGENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA
`· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`· · · · · · ·CASE NO. IPR2017-01068
`· · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 5,859,601
`
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`· · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`
`· · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
`
`· · · · · · · STEVEN W. MCLAUGHLIN
`
`· · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`
`· · · · · · ·TAKEN REMOTELY ON ZOOM
`
`· · · · · · · ·SEPTEMBER 17, 2020
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·10:00 A.M.
`
`· · ·REPORTER:· MEREDITH COHEN, CCR B-2093
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 1
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`· · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`LSI CORPORATION and AVAGO TECHNOLOGIES U.S., INC.
`· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`
`· · ·REGENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA
`· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`· · · · · · ·CASE NO. IPR2017-01068
`· · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 5,859,601
`
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
`
`· · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`
`· · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
`
`· · · · · · · STEVEN W. MCLAUGHLIN
`
`· · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`
`· · · · · · ·TAKEN REMOTELY ON ZOOM
`
`· · · · · · · ·SEPTEMBER 17, 2020
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·10:00 A.M.
`
`· · ·REPORTER:· MEREDITH COHEN, CCR B-2093
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 1
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · ·APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
`
`·2· · · · · (All Counsel appeared remotely)
`
`·3· On behalf of the Petitioners:
`
`·4· · · · · ·EDWARD J. MAYLE, ESQ.
`· · · · · · ·Kilpatrick, Townsend & Stockton, LLP
`·5· · · · · ·1400 Wewatta Street
`· · · · · · ·Suite 600
`·6· · · · · ·Denver, Colorado 80202
`· · · · · · ·(303) 607-3368
`·7· · · · · ·tmayle@kilpatricktownsend.com
`
`·8· On behalf of the Patent Owner:
`
`·9· · · · · ·PATRICK J. MCELHINNY, ESQ.
`· · · · · · ·K&L Gates
`10· · · · · ·K&L Gates Center
`· · · · · · ·210 Sixth Avenue
`11· · · · · ·Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222
`· · · · · · ·(415) 355-6334
`12· · · · · ·patrick.mcelhinny@klgates.com
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`13
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`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·3· Examination by Mr. Mayle.....................5
`
`·4· Examination by Mr. McElhinny.................143
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`·5
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`·6· · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
`
`·7· PETITIONERS'· · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·8· Exhibit 1001· · ·601 Patent· · · · · · · · · 26
`
`·9· Exhibit 1007· · ·Okada Patent· · · · · · · · 108
`
`10· Exhibit 1009· · ·Patent No. 5,791,768· · · · 20
`
`11· Exhibit 1011· · ·Tables· · · · · · · · · · · 124
`
`12· Exhibit 1014· · ·Document numbered· · · · · ·25
`· · · · · · · · · · ·UMN_0001330
`13
`· · Exhibit 1015· · ·Document on· · · · · · · · ·29
`14· · · · · · · · · ·University of
`· · · · · · · · · · ·Minnesota letterhead,
`15· · · · · · · · · ·5/11/99
`
`16· Exhibit 1016· · ·E-mail from Jae Moon,· · · ·33
`· · · · · · · · · · ·4/3/02
`17
`· · Exhibit 1017· · ·E-mail from Jae Moon,· · · ·40
`18· · · · · · · · · ·6/9/2008
`
`19· Exhibit 1018· · ·Attachment to e-mail· · · · 43
`· · · · · · · · · · ·dated 6/9/2008
`20
`· · Exhibit 1019· · ·Letter from the· · · · · · ·46
`21· · · · · · · · · ·University of
`· · · · · · · · · · ·Minnesota to
`22· · · · · · · · · ·Lawrence A. Horn,
`· · · · · · · · · · ·12/17/08
`23
`· · Exhibit 1020· · ·Letter from· · · · · · · · ·53
`24· · · · · · · · · ·Kenneth Rubinstein
`· · · · · · · · · · ·to Andrew Rosicki
`25
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 3
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · (Continued)
`
`·3· PETITIONERS'· · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·4· Exhibit 1021· · ·Interim Report of· · · · · · 55
`· · · · · · · · · · ·the University of
`·5· · · · · · · · · ·Minnesota
`
`·6· Exhibit 1023· · ·Paper authored by· · · · · · 101
`· · · · · · · · · · ·Moon and Brickner
`·7
`· · Exhibit 1029· · ·Deposition of· · · · · · · · 60
`·8· · · · · · · · · ·Steven McLaughlin,
`· · · · · · · · · · ·5/7/18
`·9
`· · Exhibit 1032· · ·Patent No.· · · · · · · · · ·68
`10· · · · · · · · · ·4,501,000
`
`11· Exhibit 1033· · ·Patent No.· · · · · · · · · ·83
`· · · · · · · · · · ·5,537,382
`12
`· · Exhibit 2017· · ·Declaration of· · · · · · · ·10
`13· · · · · · · · · ·Steven McLaughlin
`
`14
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`15
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`16
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`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 4
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · ·STEVEN W. MCLAUGHLIN,
`
`·2· called as a witness, having been first duly
`
`·3· sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`
`·5· BY MR. MAYLE:
`
`·6· · · Q· · Good morning, Professor McLaughlin, can
`
`·7· you see me?· Good morning.
`
`·8· · · A· · I sure can.· Can you hear me?
`
`·9· · · Q· ·Yes it's fine.
`
`10· · · You have been deposed before in other
`
`11· litigation; correct?
`
`12· · · A· · Yes.
`
`13· · · Q· · You have testified at trial; is that
`
`14· right?
`
`15· · · A· · Yes.
`
`16· · · Q· · In the underlying litigation that led to
`
`17· this IPR proceeding, you were actually deposed
`
`18· back in 2018.· Do you remember that?
`
`19· · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`20· · · Q· · Were you an expert in the Carnegie
`
`21· Mellon versus Marvell case as well?
`
`22· · · A· · Yes, I was.
`
`23· · · Q· · Did you not get deposed in that case?
`
`24· · · A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · Q· · Did you testify at trial there?
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 5
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`
`
`·1· · · A· · Yes, I did.
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`·2· · · Q· · Aside from these cases, have you been
`
`·3· deposed before?
`
`·4· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · Q· · Are you an expert on the Carnegie Mellon
`
`·6· versus LSI case that's going on?
`
`·7· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · Q· · Did you get deposed there?
`
`·9· · · A· · I don't believe there has been any
`
`10· depositions in that yet.
`
`11· · · Q· · Have you ever been deposed like this
`
`12· remotely on a video screen?
`
`13· · · A· ·No, this is the first time.
`
`14· · · Q· · Okay.· So we will just go over a couple
`
`15· of things.
`
`16· · · We have agreed not to videotape this, so
`
`17· all we are going to have is the transcript.· So
`
`18· generally, I am going to try and ask you yes or
`
`19· no questions.· I would ask that you give a verbal
`
`20· response like "yes" or "no."· Okay?
`
`21· · · A· · Okay.
`
`22· · · Q· · Because nods of the head and gestures
`
`23· won't be recorded.
`
`24· · · A· · Okay.
`
`25· · · Q· · I will try not to speak over you, and I
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 6
`
`
`
`·1· ask that you refrain from answering until I am
`
`·2· finished.
`
`·3· · · A· · Okay.
`
`·4· · · Q· · And we just want a clear transcript.
`
`·5· You recognize that you are under oath right now?
`
`·6· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · Q· · You understand your testimony today is
`
`·8· as if we were in a court of law?
`
`·9· · · A· · Yes.
`
`10· · · Q· · Okay, if at any point you don't
`
`11· understand a question I am asking, feel free to
`
`12· ask me for clarification.· Okay?
`
`13· · · A· · Okay.
`
`14· · · Q· · We can take breaks, but in a proceeding
`
`15· like this, you're not supposed to, as the
`
`16· witness, talk to your lawyers.· Is that okay?
`
`17· · · A· · Fine.
`
`18· · · Q· · Is there any reason why you can't
`
`19· testify truthfully and accurately today?
`
`20· · · A· · No.
`
`21· · · Q· · Yesterday I forwarded some exhibits to
`
`22· your counsel, that we might discuss.· I have the
`
`23· ability to show them on the screen.
`
`24· · · I'm wondering if you happen to have
`
`25· those also at your end.
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 7
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`
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`·1· · · A· · Yes, I do.
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`·2· · · Q· · You have them electronically or printed
`
`·3· out?
`
`·4· · · A· · Electronically.
`
`·5· · · Q· · That broke up a little bit.· You said
`
`·6· electronically?
`
`·7· · · A· · Correct.· Yes, I have them
`
`·8· electronically.
`
`·9· · · Q· · What did you do, if anything, to prepare
`
`10· for your deposition?
`
`11· · · A· · You also broke up.· I think you asked
`
`12· the question of what did I do to prepare.
`
`13· · · I read through a number of documents:
`
`14· My deposition transcript, my Declaration, some
`
`15· other things; of course the patent, the Okada
`
`16· patent, those kind of documents.
`
`17· · · I also met with counsel on Monday. I
`
`18· met my counsel on Monday.
`
`19· · · Q· · Did you meet remotely or in person?
`
`20· · · A· · Remotely.
`
`21· · · Q· · I won't ask you what you talked about
`
`22· there, but can you tell me who the counsel was?
`
`23· · · A· · Mr. McElhinny, Mr.Verdini,
`
`24· Ms. Camederson -- I think that was it.
`
`25· · · Q· · Aside from those documents that you
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 8
`
`
`
`·1· mentioned that you reviewed, do you remember any
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`·2· other documents that you reviewed?
`
`·3· · · A· · The Seagate report -- I am pretty sure
`
`·4· there were others.· Sorry they are just not
`
`·5· coming to mind.
`
`·6· · · Q· · You think that there were any documents
`
`·7· that you reviewed that weren't in that big batch
`
`·8· that we sent over to you yesterday?
`
`·9· · · A· · I don't think so.· I actually didn't
`
`10· look at those documents.· All I saw were the
`
`11· titles, but I don't think so.
`
`12· · · Q· · You said that you reviewed your
`
`13· transcript from the last time I deposed you?
`
`14· · · A· · Yes.
`
`15· · · Q· · Did you read that whole transcript?
`
`16· · · A· · I can't say that I read word for word
`
`17· the whole thing, but I read segments of it in
`
`18· detail.
`
`19· · · Q· · Did you look over the exhibits from that
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`20· last deposition?
`
`21· · · A· · Yes, I actually did.· I remember you
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`22· showed me some DVD documents.· I think they were
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`23· almost all e-mails.
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`24· · · I can't remember if you showed me
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`25· special occasions or not.· I looked through the
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`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 9
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`·1· e-mails.
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`·2· · · Q· · In prepping for your deposition today,
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`·3· have you had any communications with either of
`
`·4· the inventors on the 601 patent?
`
`·5· · · A· · No.
`
`·6· · · Q· · Did you talk to anyone to prepare for
`
`·7· this deposition, that wasn't one of your lawyers,
`
`·8· that you mentioned?
`
`·9· · · A· · No.
`
`10· · · Q· · Are you aware that Dr. Moon was deposed
`
`11· earlier this week?
`
`12· · · A· · Yes.
`
`13· · · Q· · Did you review any portion of Dr. Moon's
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`14· deposition or exhibits?
`
`15· · · A· · No.· You said or exhibits?
`
`16· · · Q· · Yes.
`
`17· · · A· · No.· I was expecting you were going to
`
`18· ask about transcripts, and my answer to that is
`
`19· no as well.· No to all.
`
`20· · · Q· · I don't think we got the transcript yet.
`
`21· · · Do you have with you your Declaration,
`
`22· which has been marked Exhibit 2017?
`
`23· · · (Exhibit 2017 was marked for
`
`24· · · identification.)
`
`25· · · A· · Yes.
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 10
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`
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`·1· · · Q· · I will share it on the screen here.
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`·2· · · Can you see that?
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`·3· · · A· · Yes, yes.
`
`·4· · · Q· · So, Exhibit 2017, that's your
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`·5· Declaration for this IPR; correct?
`
`·6· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · Q· · If you look on page 2, the signature
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`·8· there, that's your signature; correct?
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`·9· · · A· · Yes, it is.
`
`10· · · Q· · When were you first contacted about the
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`11· underlying litigation?
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`12· · · A· · You don't mean the IPR, you mean the
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`13· entire thing?
`
`14· · · Q· · I am asking about the litigation.
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`15· · · A· · Yeah.· Honestly -- my memory is pretty
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`16· bad.· I'm going to guess the time mark I will
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`17· make is the deposition -- maybe, I don't know,
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`18· six months before then.
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`19· · · Maybe six months or eight months before
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`20· then, something like that.
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`21· · · Q· · Sometime maybe you think it was sometime
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`22· in late 2017 is when you were contacted?
`
`23· · · A· · That sounds about right.· I'm sorry, my
`
`24· memory isn't that good.
`
`25· · · Q· · Who first contacted you about the case
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 11
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`
`
`·1· for the IPR?
`
`·2· · · A· · I am sure it was Mr. McElhinny.
`
`·3· · · Q· · About how much time did you spend making
`
`·4· this Declaration, Exhibit 2017?
`
`·5· · · A· · I could look at -- keeping track,
`
`·6· certainly -- I don't know.· 30 hours, maybe.
`
`·7· Probably no more than 50 or 60, and certainly no
`
`·8· less than 20.· Probably close to 30 to 40 hours.
`
`·9· · · Q· · Is that 30 to 40 hours?· Are you
`
`10· counting as part of that time, the time spent on
`
`11· your litigation Declaration?
`
`12· · · A· · No, just the IPR.
`
`13· · · Q· · So 30 to 40 hours was put into about
`
`14· making this Declaration, Exhibit 2017; right?
`
`15· · · A· · Yes, right.
`
`16· · · Q· · Who drafted this Declaration, Exhibit
`
`17· 2017?
`
`18· · · A· · I drafted it together with Mr. Neeson.
`
`19· · · Q· · Can you estimate about what percentage
`
`20· of that was your contribution?
`
`21· · · A· · By that you mean the actual physical
`
`22· words?· Is that what you mean?· Like ink on paper
`
`23· kind of thing?
`
`24· · · Q· · Yes.
`
`25· · · A· · Some of it was borrowed, cut and pasted
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 12
`
`
`
`·1· from previous -- kind of the tutorial piece was
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`·2· cut and pasted; and then edited, and so it
`
`·3· would -- yeah, I mean, I don't know.· Probably
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`·4· two-thirds, something like that.
`
`·5· · · Q· · When you say "the tutorial piece," are
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`·6· you talking about stuff like shown on the screen
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`·7· like paragraph nine where there are pictures of
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`·8· hard disks and magnets and stuff?
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`·9· · · Is that what you mean?
`
`10· · · A· · Correct.
`
`11· · · Q· · So the tutorial was primarily drafted by
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`12· counsel.· Is that what you are saying?
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`13· · · A· · That tutorial, I probably wrote a good
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`14· chunk of, but it was done previously.· Then we
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`15· cut and pasted it from the previous Declaration.
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`16· · · There's an echo.· It's a little
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`17· disturbing.
`
`18· · · Q· · You said that the tutorial was taken or
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`19· was borrowed -- parts of it were from the
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`20· previous proceeding.
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`21· · · Was that the Carnegie Mellon, Marvell
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`22· case?
`
`23· · · A· · Actually, I believe this came from the
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`24· previous Declaration in this matter.· Some of it
`
`25· might also have come from the previous Carnegie
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 13
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`
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`·1· Mellon.
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`·2· · · Q· ·Aside from this Declaration, Exhibit
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`·3· 2017, and the one that you did in the district --
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`·4· back in the 2018 time frame, have you drafted any
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`·5· other litigation declarations besides those?
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`·6· · · A· · No.
`
`·7· · · Q· · I am asking about declarations in the
`
`·8· Carnegie Mellon, Marvell.
`
`·9· · · A· · Yes.
`
`10· · · Q· · And have you done any declarations or
`
`11· expert reports in the Carnegie Mellon versus LSI
`
`12· case?
`
`13· · · A· · I am sorry, I don't remember.· I can't
`
`14· remember -- it has been a while since we worked
`
`15· on that, so I am a little jumbled with where we
`
`16· are in the process of that.
`
`17· · · I am not trying to avoid your question.
`
`18· I just don't remember.· I'm sorry.
`
`19· · · Q· · Paragraph 108 it says you are being
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`20· compensated in this matter for your time at a
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`21· rate of $550 per hour; right?
`
`22· · · A· · Yes.
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`23· · · Q· · Is that your standard rate for being an
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`24· expert?
`
`25· · · A· · Yes.
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 14
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`
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`·1· · · Q· · When you mentioned before that you put
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`·2· about 30 to 40 hours into this Declaration, did
`
`·3· you bill any time beyond those hours for this IPR
`
`·4· proceeding?
`
`·5· · · A· · I don't believe so.
`
`·6· · · Q· · Do you remember about how much time you
`
`·7· billed in the University of Minnesota versus LSI
`
`·8· district court litigation matter?
`
`·9· · · A· · I don't remember off the top of my head.
`
`10· It's probably in a similar range -- maybe a
`
`11· little bit more in terms of number of hours;
`
`12· probably a little bit more, not significantly
`
`13· more.
`
`14· · · Q· · In the ongoing Carnegie Mellon versus
`
`15· LSI case, are you working with the same counsel
`
`16· from K&L Gates that you are working with for this
`
`17· IPR proceeding?
`
`18· · · A· · Yes.
`
`19· · · Q· · And in that ongoing litigation, Carnegie
`
`20· Mellon versus LSI?· Do you know how much time you
`
`21· have billed?
`
`22· · · A· · I don't believe very much.· I am sorry.
`
`23· I will bet it is in the 20 to 30-hour range. I
`
`24· bet it's a bit less than we have done in this
`
`25· matter so far.
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 15
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`
`
`·1· · · Q· ·Were you an expert in the Carnegie Mellon
`
`·2· versus Marvell case?· Did you also work with some
`
`·3· of the same lawyers from K&L Gates that you are
`
`·4· working with in this IPR?
`
`·5· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·6· · · Q· · And do you remember how much time you
`
`·7· put in that case?
`
`·8· · · A· · That was probably well over hundreds,
`
`·9· maybe not a large number of hundreds, but I am
`
`10· going to guess 1 to 200, something like that.
`
`11· · · Not that it is a big range, but it's
`
`12· certainly significantly more than these matters
`
`13· so far.· It could be 150, 200.
`
`14· · · Q· · You think that your hourly rate was
`
`15· about the same as it is now?
`
`16· · · A· · Yes, it is exactly the same.
`
`17· · · Q· · Aside from the University of Minnesota
`
`18· matters and the two Carnegie Mellon cases, one
`
`19· against Marvell and the one against LSI, have you
`
`20· worked with these K&L Gates lawyers on other
`
`21· cases?
`
`22· · · A· · No.
`
`23· · · Q· · Sorry, no?
`
`24· · · A· · No, I have not.
`
`25· · · Q· · This Declaration, Exhibit 2017, is this
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 16
`
`
`
`·1· a complete statement of all the opinions and
`
`·2· facts you have submitted, the IPR and -- the
`
`·3· basis and reasons for them?
`
`·4· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · Q· · I'd like to go to paragraph 5.· Feel
`
`·6· free to look at them on your end as well.
`
`·7· · · Do you see section 2?
`
`·8· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · Q· · Did you review the same PSA and G patent
`
`10· in preparing for your deposition?
`
`11· · · A· · I did not.
`
`12· · · Q· · Are you aware that the same patent was
`
`13· an Exhibit in the "Soyoung" deposition?
`
`14· · · A· · Yes, I believe so.
`
`15· · · Q· · And here on page 4 you say that you
`
`16· reviewed the deposition transcript for Professor
`
`17· "Soyoung," and the Exhibits used in that
`
`18· deposition; right?
`
`19· · · A· · Uh-huh -- actually, let me amend my
`
`20· answer.· I probably read your -- I misunderstood
`
`21· your question to mean in preparation for this
`
`22· IPR.
`
`23· · · I have not read the same patent, and I
`
`24· bet I read it many months ago.· It's been months
`
`25· ago.
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 17
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · So did you read the same patent in
`
`·2· preparation for the district court action you
`
`·3· were a part of?
`
`·4· · · A· · Yes, I am sure I did.
`
`·5· · · Q· · In preparing for this Exhibit 2017
`
`·6· Declaration for the IPR, you did not again review
`
`·7· the same patent; is that right?
`
`·8· · · A· · Yes.· In the preparation of this
`
`·9· Declaration, I am sure that I re-read it.· I have
`
`10· not re-read it in preparation for the deposition.
`
`11· · · You see the distinguishing -- I am
`
`12· trying to distinguish between how long it has
`
`13· been since I looked at it.
`
`14· · · Q· · To prepare for this deposition, you did
`
`15· not review the same patent?
`
`16· · · A· · Correct.
`
`17· · · Q· · Are you saying you might have reviewed
`
`18· it before you did this declaration for the IPR?
`
`19· · · A· · Yes.
`
`20· · · Q· · When you reviewed that, would that have
`
`21· been a few years ago, back in the 2018 time
`
`22· frame?
`
`23· · · A· · No, it would have been in the last two
`
`24· or three months, something like that.
`
`25· · · Q· · Are you aware of any other materials
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 18
`
`
`
`·1· that you reviewed that are not listed in this
`
`·2· paragraph 5 of your depo?
`
`·3· · · A· · Nothing other than I think we mentioned
`
`·4· you asked some questions previously about things
`
`·5· that I had reviewed like some e-mails -- e-mails
`
`·6· from the University of Minnesota; that is
`
`·7· included in this list.· I just don't know.
`
`·8· · · Q· · You say here where my cursor is, "I also
`
`·9· reviewed UMN's response found here with the
`
`10· detail, and I agreed with this analysis and
`
`11· conclusions."
`
`12· · · I want to get clear on -- what Okada
`
`13· is -- let me put it up for a minute.
`
`14· · · When you reference Okada in your
`
`15· Declaration, are you talking about what has been
`
`16· designated Exhibit 1007, which is patent number
`
`17· 5,392,370?
`
`18· · · (Exhibit 1007 was marked for
`
`19· · · identification.)
`
`20· · · A· · Yes.
`
`21· · · Q· · So can we agree that as a shorthand
`
`22· today, if we just say "Okada," we are talking
`
`23· about this Exhibit, 1007?
`
`24· · · A· · Yes, that's fine.
`
`25· · · Q· · When we mentioned Tsang -- let me just
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 19
`
`
`
`·1· show that and make sure we are talking about the
`
`·2· same thing.
`
`·3· · · On the screen I put up what has been
`
`·4· designated as Exhibit 1009, patent number
`
`·5· 5,731,768.
`
`·6· · · When you mentioned Tsang earlier, were
`
`·7· you referring to this Exhibit?
`
`·8· · · (Exhibit 1009 was marked for
`
`·9· · · identification.)
`
`10· · · A· · Yes.
`
`11· · · Q· · So, again, can we just agree that as a
`
`12· shorthand to the deposition, if we mention the
`
`13· word "Tsang," we are talking about the patent,
`
`14· Exhibit 1009?
`
`15· · · A· · That's fine.
`
`16· · · Q· · In your Declaration for this IPR,
`
`17· Exhibit 2017, you did not offer an opinion with
`
`18· respect to alleged "anticipation" by Tsang?
`
`19· · · A· · That's correct, I did not.
`
`20· · · Q· · And in your Declaration, you offered no
`
`21· opinion as to whether Tsang qualifies as prior
`
`22· art to the University --
`
`23· · · A· · That's correct, I did not.
`
`24· · · Q· · And in your Declaration, you offered no
`
`25· opinion as to whether if they are saying, derived
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 20
`
`
`
`·1· his invention in the same patent from Dr.Moon or
`
`·2· Dr. Brickner; correct?
`
`·3· · · A· · There's a section -- that's correct.
`
`·4· · · Q· · And in your Declaration to the 2017, you
`
`·5· offered no opinion as to whether Dr. Moon and
`
`·6· Dr. Brickner actually produced a practice -- of
`
`·7· the Claim 13, 14 and 17, in the 601 patent;
`
`·8· correct?
`
`·9· · · A· · I don't believe so.· I know there is a
`
`10· section in my report that is related to this.
`
`11· But the specific reduction to practice I don't
`
`12· believe is mentioned in that section of my
`
`13· Declaration.
`
`14· · · Q· · In your Declaration, at paragraph 5, you
`
`15· state that you have reviewed the
`
`16· contemporaneously -- Declaration from Professor
`
`17· Moon, to meet the technical description of --
`
`18· · · A· · Yes.
`
`19· · · Q· · Is it your testimony that, again, that
`
`20· you did not speak with Professor Moon in
`
`21· preparing your Declaration, Exhibit 2017?
`
`22· · · A· · That's correct.
`
`23· · · Q· · You also did not speak with Dr. Brickner
`
`24· in preparing your Declaration for this IPR;
`
`25· correct?
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 21
`
`
`
`·1· · · A· · That's correct.
`
`·2· · · Q· · Paragraph 4 of your declaration, you
`
`·3· say -- Many of my papers and patents deal with
`
`·4· coding techniques for optical and magnetic data
`
`·5· storage devices.
`
`·6· · · Do you see that?
`
`·7· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · Q· · The CD, DVD and Blu-Ray are examples of
`
`·9· optical systems; correct?
`
`10· · · A· · Yes.
`
`11· · · Q· · Now, there are some common aspects to
`
`12· both magnetic and optical recording; correct?
`
`13· · · A· · That is a broad question.· I will
`
`14· answer, yes.
`
`15· · · Q· · Some examples of common aspects between
`
`16· magnetic and optical recording they include --
`
`17· light filming codes; correct?
`
`18· · · A· · Correct.· Those both use run light
`
`19· filming codes.· Different generations use them in
`
`20· different ways, but, yes.
`
`21· · · Q· · And magnetic and optical recording
`
`22· systems may also both use --
`
`23· · · A· · Yes, that's correct.
`
`24· · · Q· · Let's go back to your Declaration,
`
`25· paragraph 41.· You say, It is my opinion that
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 22
`
`
`
`·1· phosita -- and by phosita you mean a person
`
`·2· having ordinary skill in the -- correct?
`
`·3· · · A· · That's correct.
`
`·4· · · Q· · You say, It is my opinion that a phosita
`
`·5· in the field to which the 601 patent pertains, is
`
`·6· someone working on the electrical engineering
`
`·7· field and specializing in data coding and
`
`·8· detection techniques using connection with
`
`·9· reading data from various -- hard disk drive and
`
`10· optical media.
`
`11· · · A· · Yes.
`
`12· · · Q· · It is your testimony that a phosita
`
`13· specializes in data coding and detection
`
`14· techniques using connections with the reading
`
`15· data from magnetic and optical media; correct?
`
`16· · · A· · I wouldn't say they have to have both.
`
`17· · · Q· · So could phosita, for this patent, be
`
`18· familiar only with optical data?
`
`19· · · A· · Because this patent relates to magnetic
`
`20· recording, someone just familiar with optical
`
`21· media might be able to contribute and understand
`
`22· certain aspects.
`
`23· · · But I would prefer that this person have
`
`24· the expertise on hard disk drives because of the
`
`25· commonalities that we described before.
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 23
`
`
`
`·1· · · It wouldn't surprise me if a phosita
`
`·2· knows -- one would typically be hard drive expert
`
`·3· or knowledgeable, but they would know a good bit
`
`·4· about optical media and vice versa.
`
`·5· · · They are not required to know both.· It
`
`·6· wouldn't surprise me that they would know a
`
`·7· little bit about the other.
`
`·8· · · Q· · And today can we agree that if we say
`
`·9· MTR, it means maximum transition run?
`
`10· · · A· · Yes.
`
`11· · · Q· · In principal, MTR codes can be used to
`
`12· record data on optical media; correct?
`
`13· · · A· · Outside the context of this patent, it
`
`14· could be that someone applied MTR to optical
`
`15· media.
`
`16· · · Q· · There is no technical reason that would
`
`17· prevent an MTR code from being used to record
`
`18· data on optical media; correct?
`
`19· · · A· · Right, there is no -- again, outside the
`
`20· context of the patent in the broader scheme,
`
`21· someone could choose to use it, so there is no
`
`22· technical reason they couldn't.
`
`23· · · Q· · I will share an Exhibit here.
`
`24· · · Professor, do you see something
`
`25· designated as 1014 on the screen?
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 24
`
`
`
`·1· · · (Exhibit 1014 was marked for
`
`·2· · · identification.)
`
`·3· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·4· · · Q· · And you see at the bottom right, corner,
`
`·5· it says, UMN_0001330?
`
`·6· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · Q· · Did you understand that this UMN prefix
`
`·8· and then with numbers is something the University
`
`·9· produced such a document?
`
`10· · · A· · Yes.
`
`11· · · Q· · The University produced that to LSI from
`
`12· the University's files; correct?
`
`13· · · A· · I assume so, if they produced it, I
`
`14· assume it was in their possession.
`
`15· · · Q· · And you see on this Exhibit 1014, at the
`
`16· top left there is some handwritten characters
`
`17· there?
`
`18· · · A· · Yes.
`
`19· · · Q· · Do you make that out as 5859601?
`
`20· · · A· · Yes.
`
`21· · · Q· · So that refers to the 601 patent?
`
`22· · · A· · Yes.
`
`23· · · Q· · That handwriting refers to the 601
`
`24· patent which is the subject of this IPR; right?
`
`25· · · A· · I can't swear to that, someone else
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 25
`
`
`
`·1· would have to do that, but I can see those
`
`·2· numbers here; so it stands to reason, but I can't
`
`·3· verify that.
`
`·4· · · Q· · And you have no reason to doubt that
`
`·5· 5859601 written here does in fact refer to the
`
`·6· 601 patent that is the subject of this matter?
`
`·7· · · · · ·MR. MCELHINNY:· Objection.
`
`·8· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Right.· Those are the same
`
`·9· · · numbers.· So it is a reasonable assumption.
`
`10· BY MR. MAYLE:
`
`11· · · Q· · The 601 patent, which was Exhibit 1001
`
`12· you have it there?
`
`13· · · (Exhibit 1001 was marked for
`
`14· · · identification.)
`
`15· · · A· · The 601 patent?
`
`16· · · Q· · I just want to know if you remember an
`
`17· issue on January 12, 1999.
`
`18· · · Does that sound fair?
`
`19· · · A· · That sounds fair.
`
`20· · · Q· · You see on this Exhibit 1014, it says,
`
`21· MTR codes, and it says, March 1999; right?
`
`22· · · A· · Okay, yes.
`
`23· · · Q· · And this Exhibit 1014 is dated from a
`
`24· couple of months after the 601 patent was issued?
`
`25· · · A· · You broke up there a little bit. I
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 26
`
`
`
`·1· think you asked a couple of months after the
`
`·2· patent issue -- was that your question?
`
`·3· · · Q· · Yes.· You would agree with that?
`
`·4· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · Q· · And in the first paragraph, on the first
`
`·6· page of this Exhibit 1014,
`
`11· · · Do you see that?
`
`12· · · A· · I am just looking at the errors that
`
`13· they are referring to.· They are just talking
`
`14· about general errors there.
`
`15· · · So, yes, there are errors that occur in
`
`16· those systems.· They are talking about general
`
`17· types of errors.
`
`18· · · Q· · At the bottom of the first page, I
`
`19· direct your attention to where my cursor is.· It
`
`20· says,
`
`23· · · Do you see that?
`
`24· · · A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · Q· · Now DVD's are optical; right?
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 27
`
`REDACTED
`
`REDACTED
`
`
`
`·1· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · Q· · And DVD's do not have magnetic
`
`·3· transitions; right?
`
`·4· · · A· · That's correct they do not have magnetic
`
`·5· transitions.
`
`·6· · · Q· · DSL's do not have magnetic transitions;
`
`·7· right?
`
`·8· · · A· · That's correct.
`
`·9· · · Q· · This Exhibit 1014, you see on the bottom
`
`10· right-hand corner it has another Exhibit sticker?
`
`11· You see that?
`
`12· · · A· · Yes.
`
`13· · · Q· · This Exhibit 1014 for the IPR was listed
`
`14· as Exhibit 1012 at your May 7, 2018 deposition.
`
`15· · · A· · Okay, I will buy that.· That is the
`
`16· date.· Sounds good.
`
`17· · · Q· · You have seen this document from your
`
`18· deposition; correct?· At your deposition, you saw
`
`19· the document; correct?
`
`20· · · A· · That was the first time I saw it, yes.
`
`21· · · Q· · Okay.· So you knew about this document,
`
`22· since 2018, but you chose not to mention it in
`
`23· your Declaration for this IPR; correct?
`
`24· · · A· · Correct.
`
`25· · · Q· · So, Professor, on your screen you have
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 28
`
`
`
`·1· what is called LSI Corp Exhibit 1015.
`
`·2· · · Do you see that?
`
`·3· · · (Exhibit 1015 was marked for
`
`·4· · · identification.)
`
`·5· · · A· · Yes.· I think it's 1013.· I think you
`
`·6· said Exhibit 1015.
`
`·7· · · Q· · You see on the bottom corner, there's
`
`·8· the UMN prefix that ends in 916?
`
`·9· · · A· · Yes.
`
`10· · · Q· · It's a University of Minnesota
`
`11· letterhead; correct?
`
`12· · · A· · Correct.
`
`13· · · Q· · And you see it is dated May 11, 1999?
`
`14· · · A· · Yes.
`
`15· · · Q· · And you remember the last document we
`
`16· just looked at, Exhibit 1014 that was from March
`
`17· 1999.· Remember that?
`
`18· · · A· · Correct, yes.
`
`19· · · Q· · So this Exhibit 1015 is dated about a
`
`20· few months after the 1014?
`
`21· · · A· · Yes.
`
`22· · · Q· · So this Exhibit is a few months after
`
`23· the 601 patent issue; correct?
`
`24· · · A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · Q· · And you see the letter is being sent
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 29
`
`
`
`·1· from someone named Kiran P. Saindane, Patents and
`
`·2· Technology Marketing at the University of
`
`·3· Minnesota.
`
`·4· · · Do you see that?
`
`·5· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·6· · · Q· · And the letter is addressed to
`
`·7·
`
`.
`
`·9· · · Do you see that?
`
`10· · · A· · Yes.
`
`11· · · Q· · And you see near the signature block
`
`12· where my cursor is, it says, We have enclosed a
`
`13· copy of the patent number 5 -- there might be a
`
`14· typo there.
`
`15· · · Let me start over.· It says number
`
`16· 5,5859,601.
`
`17· · · Do you see that?
`
`18· · · A· · Yes.
`
`19· · · Q· · It looks like there is a typo there with
`
`20· too many numbers; right?
`
`21· · · · · ·MR. McElhinny:· Objection.· Foundation.
`
`22· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Because any of those
`
`23· · · numbers has to be the 601 patent.· I assume
`
`24· · · that that is what they are referring to as a
`
`25· · · typo.
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 30
`
`REDACTED
`
`
`
`·1· BY MR. MAYLE:
`
`·2· · · Q· · So, you are assuming that this person is
`
`·3· referring to the 601 patent?
`
`·4· · · A· · Correct.· I can't confirm that. I
`
`·5· didn't write it.· I think it is a reasonable
`
`·6· assumption.
`
`·7· · · Q· · You see where it says, Enclosure of
`
`·8· patent copy?· You see that?
`
`·9· · · A· · Yes.
`
`10· · · Q· · I don't think you were given the
`
`11· enclosure, but you would assume that the
`
`12· enclosure would have been the 601 patent;
`
`13· correct?
`
`14· · · A· · Again, I think that is a reasonable
`
`15· assumption.· I can't verify whether it is a
`
`16· reasonable assumption.
`
`17· · · Q· · Up here, where my cursor is, Exhibit
`
`18· 1015, it reads,
`
`23· · · Do you see that?
`
`24· · · A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · Q· ·
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 31
`
`REDACTED
`
`REDACTED
`
`
`
`·1·
`
` correct?
`
`·3· · · · · ·MR. MCELHINNY:· Objection.· Foundation.
`
`·4· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would say it is
`
`·5· · · probably -- Mr. Saindane is probably not an
`
`·6· · · engineer.· I wouldn't describe DVD as a
`
`·7· · · magneto-optical storage device.
`
`·8· · · · ·
`
`, but I wouldn't
`
`·9· · · describe it as a magneto-optic storage
`
`10· · · device.
`
`11· BY MR. MAYLE:
`
`12· · · Q· · I am not asking you that.· Let me
`
`13· reframe the question.
`
`14· · · DVD's are optical storage media; right?
`
`15· · · A· · Correct.
`
`16· · · Q· · So this document will show that
`
`; correct?
`
`19· · · · · ·MR. MCELHINNY:· Objection.· Foundation.
`
`20· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That seems to be what they
`
`21· · · are trying to convince Lucent of that fact.
`
`22· BY MR. MAYLE:
`
`23· · · Q· · This document where my cursor is, what
`
`24· is now marked as Exhibit 1013 at your May 7, 2018
`
`25· deposition; correct?
`
`LSI Corp. Exhibit 1035
`Page 32
`
`REDACTED
`
`REDACTED
`
`RED
`ACT
`ED
`
`
`
`·1· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · Q· · So you knew about this document, Exhib
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