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·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·2· · STINGRAY DIGITAL· · ·)
`· · · GROUP, INC.,· · · · ·)
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Case IPR2017-00888
`· · · · · ·Petitioner,· · ·)· Patent 7,320,025 B1
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · MUSIC CHOICE,· · · · )
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · ·Patent Owner.· ·)
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`
`·8
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·- - -
`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
`· · · · · · · · · · ·MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · ·- - -
`
`11· · · · · · · · · December 14, 2017
`
`12· · · · ·The Deposition of MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS, a
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`13· Witness herein, called by the Plaintiff, taken
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`14· pursuant to Notice of Deposition and the Texas
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`15· Rules of Civil Procedure, by and before Faye Ann
`
`16· Lehman, a Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth
`
`17· of Pennsylvania, at the Wyndham Pittsburgh
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`18· University Center, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the
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`19· day and date above set forth.
`
`20· · · · · · · · · · · · ·- - -
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`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Music Choice Exhibit 2005
`Stingray Digital Group Inc. v. Music Choice
`Case IPR2018-00114
`
`IPR Page 1
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`

`

`·1· APPEARANCES:
`
`·2· On behalf of the Plaintiff:
`
`·3· · · · BRIAN ROSENBLOOM, ESQUIRE
`· · · · · JENNIFER MAISEL, ESQUIRE
`·4· · · · ROTHWELL, FIGG, ERNST & MANBECK, P.C.
`· · · · · 607 14TH STREET, NORTHWEST
`·5· · · · SUITE 800
`· · · · · WASHINGTON, D.C., 20005
`·6· · · · 202.783.6040
`
`·7
`· · On behalf of the Defendant:
`·8
`· · · · · ALLAN KASSENOFF, ESQUIRE
`·9· · · · GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
`· · · · · MetLife Building
`10· · · · 200 Park Avenue
`· · · · · New York, New York, 10166
`11· · · · 212.801.3115
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · - - -
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
`
`14
`· · WITNESS:· MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS· · · · · ·PAGE
`15
`· · Examination by Mr. Rosenbloom· · · · · · 3
`16
`
`17· EXHIBITS
`
`18
`· · Deposition Exhibit No. 1· · · · · · · · ·6
`19· Deposition Exhibit No. 2· · · · · · · · ·7
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`20
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`21· · · · · · · · · · · - - -
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`IPR Page 2
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`

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`·1· · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S:· (9:01 a.m.)
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`·2· · · · · · · · · ·MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS
`
`·3· the witness, having been first duly sworn, was
`
`·4· further examined and testified as follows:
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`
`·6· BY MR. ROSENBLOOM:
`
`·7· Q.· · ·Good morning.
`
`·8· A.· · ·Good morning.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·So I understand that you've been through
`
`10· this deposition process a number of times before;
`
`11· is that right?
`
`12· A.· · ·Including with you, apparently.
`
`13· Q.· · ·Well, we worked together once, but I don't
`
`14· think we went through the deposition process
`
`15· together.
`
`16· A.· · ·Yeah, I have.
`
`17· Q.· · ·So I presume you're familiar with the rules,
`
`18· but I'll just briefly go over them.
`
`19· A.· · ·Sure.
`
`20· Q.· · ·As you know, the court reporter is making a
`
`21· verbatim transcript of today's proceedings, so it's
`
`22· important that you give audible responses to my
`
`23· questions.· And it's important that we don't talk
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`24· over each other.· I assume this is all okay with
`
`25· you?
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`IPR Page 3
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`

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`·1· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·2· Q.· · ·And I'll be asking you a series of questions
`
`·3· today.· If you don't understand a question, will
`
`·4· you agree to let me know, so that I can rephrase
`
`·5· it.
`
`·6· A.· · ·If I recognize that I don't understand it,
`
`·7· yes.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·Fair enough.
`
`·9· · · · ·And you understand that you are to respond
`
`10· to my questions to the best of your ability unless
`
`11· you're specifically instructed not to answer,
`
`12· correct?
`
`13· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`14· Q.· · ·And will you agree that if I ask you a yes
`
`15· or no question, that you will answer either yes or
`
`16· no, or that you can't answer yes or no?
`
`17· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`18· Q.· · ·Okay.· Now, you've been retained on behalf
`
`19· of Stingray Digital Group in this proceeding?
`
`20· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`21· Q.· · ·And who retained you?
`
`22· A.· · ·Well, that I don't exactly recall.· So I was
`
`23· engaged through an expert witness agency, I believe
`
`24· it's IMS, and I had preliminary conversations with
`
`25· them and then they set up a telephone interview,
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`IPR Page 4
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`

`

`·1· and I don't recall the counsel that were on the
`
`·2· other side of the call.· It wasn't a video
`
`·3· conference.· I don't recall.
`
`·4· Q.· · ·Do you recall the law firm that they were
`
`·5· from?
`
`·6· A.· · ·Greenberg Traurig, yes.
`
`·7· Q.· · ·So do you have any engagement with Greenberg
`
`·8· Traurig?
`
`·9· A.· · ·My recollection with this is that I have an
`
`10· engagement with IMS, and normally those
`
`11· arrangements are third-party arrangements.· It's
`
`12· IMS, Greenberg Traurig, and me.
`
`13· Q.· · ·And in addition to being retained on behalf
`
`14· of Stingray Digital Group -- and I'm going to
`
`15· shorten it to Stingray; is that okay?
`
`16· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`17· Q.· · ·So in addition to being retained on behalf
`
`18· of Stingray, you were also retained by Stingray on
`
`19· several other proceedings; is that correct?
`
`20· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`21· Q.· · ·That includes a district court in Texas?
`
`22· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`23· Q.· · ·And it includes five other RPR proceedings
`
`24· between Stingray and Music Choice?
`
`25· A.· · ·I don't recall the five other.· I thought
`
`IPR Page 5
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`

`

`·1· there was a total of five.
`
`·2· Q.· · ·The sum number.
`
`·3· A.· · ·There may be multiple ones for the same
`
`·4· company, possibly.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·Now, for all the work you've done on all of
`
`·6· these matters on behalf of Stingray combined, can
`
`·7· you tell me approximately how much money you've
`
`·8· received for that work?
`
`·9· A.· · ·I can't, sitting here, but I could after the
`
`10· lunch break.
`
`11· Q.· · ·Can you, sitting here, just ballpark it for
`
`12· me?
`
`13· A.· · ·No.· I can give you a pretty close number
`
`14· after the lunch break.
`
`15· Q.· · ·Do you have a sense of how many hours you
`
`16· billed total?
`
`17· A.· · ·No.· But I'll give you that after the lunch
`
`18· break.
`
`19· Q.· · ·Fair enough.
`
`20· · · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked
`
`21· · · · ·for identification.)
`
`22· Q.· · ·So I've just handed you a document that's
`
`23· been labeled Deposition Exhibit No. 1.· Can you
`
`24· tell me what this document is?
`
`25· A.· · ·Yes.· This was my resume as of February 2nd
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`IPR Page 6
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`

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`·1· of 2017.
`
`·2· Q.· · ·Have you updated the resume since then?
`
`·3· A.· · ·Yes.· The resume's always available online.
`
`·4· It's easy to look at.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·So the up-to-date one is online?
`
`·6· A.· · ·Yes.· If you go to my -- if you type Michael
`
`·7· Shamos into Google --
`
`·8· Q.· · ·I think we may have done that.
`
`·9· · · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked
`
`10· · · · ·for identification.)
`
`11· A.· · ·Then I'm the first hit, and my web page is
`
`12· the first hit.· If you click on that, there's a
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`13· link at the upper left that says "View resume in
`
`14· PDF."
`
`15· Q.· · ·So now I've just handed you another document
`
`16· marked Deposition Exhibit 2.
`
`17· · · · ·Can you tell me what this is?
`
`18· A.· · ·Yes.· This is my resume, current to
`
`19· September 20, 2017.· It seems to be twice as big as
`
`20· the other one, but that's because it's a
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`21· single-sided copy instead of a double-sided copy.
`
`22· It has been updated twice more since then.· This
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`23· goes up to Case No. 237.· I think we're up to 247
`
`24· by now, something like that.
`
`25· Q.· · ·So other than updating the cases that you've
`
`IPR Page 7
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`

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`·1· worked on, have other courses been updated, such as
`
`·2· the course you taught in publications?
`
`·3· A.· · ·No.· The only section that has been updated
`
`·4· is beginning at page 4, Expert Witness.· Everything
`
`·5· else remains the same.
`
`·6· Q.· · ·So you said you're up to about 240 expert --
`
`·7· A.· · ·247, 246, something like that.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·And those are expert witness engagements
`
`·9· where you've been engaged as an expert witness?
`
`10· A.· · ·All but one.
`
`11· Q.· · ·So what would you -- for 2017, let's say, it
`
`12· seems like you've been pretty busy with expert
`
`13· witness work.· What would you estimate is the
`
`14· percentage of your earned income that you've earned
`
`15· from your expert witness work?
`
`16· A.· · ·It'll be 80 percent or a little more.
`
`17· Q.· · ·And is that true going back a few years as
`
`18· well?
`
`19· A.· · ·It has varied a lot.· I think in some years,
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`20· it may have been as low as 60, but probably not
`
`21· less than 60 for a long time.
`
`22· Q.· · ·So on page 2, there's a listing of courses
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`23· taught.· Is this your complete list of courses that
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`24· you've taught at Carnegie Mellon?
`
`25· A.· · ·Yes.
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`IPR Page 8
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`

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`·1· Q.· · ·And so it looks like you would agree that
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`·2· you haven't taught a course on video-on-demand
`
`·3· systems; is that right?
`
`·4· A.· · ·I don't think we have a course on video
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`·5· demand systems -- video-on-demand systems, no.
`
`·6· Q.· · ·And what about a course on, like, user
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`·7· interface?
`
`·8· A.· · ·Oh, I haven't taught a course, but it's part
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`·9· of -- if you look at e-commerce technology, 20-751,
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`10· that was a survey course of a large number of
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`11· technologies, there was a full semester course on
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`12· technologies that have been used in used electronic
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`13· -- so I didn't teach a whole course on it.
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`14· Q.· · ·As part of a survey class; is that correct?
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`15· A.· · ·Yes.· So it's more than that.· So in the
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`16· program of which I'm director, which is the master
`
`17· of science and information technology, e-business
`
`18· technology's long title, that's a full year
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`19· graduate program that ends with the summaries
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`20· devoted to development projects by teams of
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`21· students.· And those projects are provided by
`
`22· outside paying sponsors, and the students are
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`23· required to develop a system, a software system,
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`24· that solves the problem that is provided to them by
`
`25· the sponsor.· And I'm an advisor to those projects,
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`IPR Page 9
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`·1· and every one of them has a user in place.· So I've
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`·2· been involved in teaching a course on it, and I've
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`·3· been advising at this time over a hundred teams on
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`·4· user interfaces.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·Let's look at your business experience on
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`·6· page 42.
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`·7· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·Is this a complete list of your business
`
`·9· experience?
`
`10· A.· · ·I think it's a complete list of positions in
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`11· which I was employed by a company.
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`12· Q.· · ·And have you ever been employed by a company
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`13· that offered a video-on-demand service?
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`14· A.· · ·Not as an employee of a company.· As an
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`15· expert witness for such companies, yes, but not as
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`16· an employee.
`
`17· Q.· · ·Have you ever been employed by a company
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`18· that -- that sold video-on-demand technology?
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`19· A.· · ·Same answer.· As an expert witness, not as a
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`20· company employee.
`
`21· Q.· · ·How about in your publications, have you
`
`22· published in the area of video-on-demand
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`23· technology?
`
`24· A.· · ·No.
`
`25· Q.· · ·What did you do to prepare for your
`
`IPR Page 10
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`·1· deposition today?
`
`·2· A.· · ·So over the first couple days of the week, I
`
`·3· reviewed the IPR materials, myself.· Then
`
`·4· yesterday, I met with counsel for about six hours.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·I've handed you a document that's been
`
`·6· previously marked as Petitioner's D. Ray 1001.· Do
`
`·7· you recognize this document?
`
`·8· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·This is the Music Choice patent that's
`
`10· involved in this proceeding, correct?
`
`11· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`12· Q.· · ·And just for the record, this is Patent
`
`13· Number 7,320,025; is that correct?
`
`14· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`15· Q.· · ·And as I'm sure you're used to, patent
`
`16· lawyers like to refer to patents by the last few
`
`17· numbers.
`
`18· A.· · ·Me, too.
`
`19· Q.· · ·Is it fair if we refer to this as the 025
`
`20· Patent?
`
`21· A.· · ·That's fair.
`
`22· Q.· · ·Would you turn to -- how many times have you
`
`23· read this document?
`
`24· A.· · ·Well, if you mean read from beginning to
`
`25· end, probably once.· But I've referred to it many,
`
`IPR Page 11
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`

`

`·1· many, many, many times.
`
`·2· Q.· · ·So you've --
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`·3· A.· · ·Yes.· And I've done searching through the
`
`·4· PDF of it.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·And when was the last time you referred to
`
`·6· it?
`
`·7· A.· · ·Yesterday.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·Let's turn to Column 16.· It's the second to
`
`·9· the last page.
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`10· · · · ·And on Column 16, do you see Claim 1?
`
`11· A.· · ·Yes.
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`12· Q.· · ·And this is one of the claims that's
`
`13· involved in that proceeding, correct?
`
`14· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`15· Q.· · ·I'd like you to look at line 46 and where it
`
`16· says "a video identifier, identifying a video."
`
`17· A.· · ·Yes.
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`18· Q.· · ·What is your understanding of what the term
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`19· "video identifier" means, as we sit here today?
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`20· A.· · ·So I think that it's self-explanatory in the
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`21· claim, that is, a video identifier is something
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`22· that identifies a video.· Clearly in the context of
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`23· the patent and the claim, it's not a paper label.
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`24· It has to be application data.· So it has to be
`
`25· something that's computer readable.
`
`IPR Page 12
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`

`

`·1· Q.· · ·Would you think it's fair to say that an
`
`·2· identifier is a sequence of one of the characters?
`
`·3· A.· · ·It certainly can be that.· Questions have
`
`·4· arisen in cases like this that I've been involved,
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`·5· in where it needs to be actually a single sequence,
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`·6· or whether there could be, for example, two fields
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`·7· in a record, which together would be the video
`
`·8· identifier.· But it has to be some bits,
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`·9· ultimately, that are going to uniquely identify the
`
`10· video, otherwise you wouldn't know what video to
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`11· play.
`
`12· Q.· · ·Right.· And you come to that conclusion
`
`13· because that's the plain ordinary meaning of the
`
`14· term, and the patent doesn't use it differently
`
`15· than that, correct?
`
`16· A.· · ·I think it's not just the plain ordinary
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`17· meaning.· It's that they're clarifying words in the
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`18· claim.· It says "including the video identifier,
`
`19· identifying a video."· I can't imagine what else it
`
`20· could mean.
`
`21· Q.· · ·Fair enough.· I've handed you a document
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`22· that has previously been labeled as 1004.· Are you
`
`23· familiar with this document?
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`24· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`25· Q.· · ·What is this document?
`
`IPR Page 13
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`·1· A.· · ·This is a P.C.T International Application
`
`·2· Publication Macintosh, et al., with the publication
`
`·3· number WO00/19662, which we've been referring to as
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`·4· Macintosh.
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`·5· Q.· · ·And I'm fine if we continue to refer to it
`
`·6· as Macintosh or the Macintosh reference; is that
`
`·7· okay?
`
`·8· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·On the front page, do you see the list of
`
`10· inventors?
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`11· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`12· Q.· · ·And the inventors are Gregory Macintosh,
`
`13· Mike Kim and Edwin Price, correct?
`
`14· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`15· Q.· · ·Have you ever had any conversations with any
`
`16· of these inventors?
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`17· A.· · ·I don't think so.
`
`18· Q.· · ·Now, I've handed you a document that's
`
`19· labeled "Petitioner Stingray 0003."· You do
`
`20· recognize this document, correct?
`
`21· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`22· Q.· · ·And this is the declaration that you've
`
`23· submitted in support of the IPR petition filed by
`
`24· Stingray, correct?
`
`25· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`IPR Page 14
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`·1· Q.· · ·Would you turn to page 10.· At the bottom of
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`·2· page 10, we have a section overview of Macintosh,
`
`·3· correct?
`
`·4· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·Where you -- where the procedure describes
`
`·6· an overview of the Macintosh reference, right?
`
`·7· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·And you'll agree that Macintosh discloses --
`
`·9· or it's your -- you'll agree that Macintosh
`
`10· discloses a system that allows users having a
`
`11· certain player, to listen to the radio station
`
`12· broadcast over the internet, and at the same time,
`
`13· view supplemental materials related to that radio
`
`14· broadcast, correct?
`
`15· · · · · · · MR. KASSENOFF:· Objection to form.
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`16· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`17· Q.· · ·And Macintosh describes delivery of this
`
`18· content to the user's player over the internet,
`
`19· correct?
`
`20· A.· · ·Well, it describes delivery of the content
`
`21· to the user's computer.· The computer has a player
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`22· and ultimately, the material is played through the
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`23· player.· I'm sure it's completely accurate to say
`
`24· that the materials are delivered to the player.
`
`25· They ultimately are played by play.
`
`IPR Page 15
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`·1· Q.· · ·Well, the radio broadcast material,
`
`·2· Macintosh describes that the radio broadcast
`
`·3· material is delivered to the user's terminal over
`
`·4· the internet, correct?
`
`·5· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·6· Q.· · ·And you'll agree that Macintosh discloses a
`
`·7· system that broadcasts content to client systems,
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`·8· to user terminals, correct?
`
`·9· A.· · ·So I've agreed to talk about broadcast --
`
`10· Q.· · ·Well, let's see.· If we turn to page 18 of
`
`11· your declaration.
`
`12· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`13· Q.· · ·On this page, is this where you're stepping
`
`14· through the elements of Claim 1 to show where those
`
`15· elements are found in Macintosh?
`
`16· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`17· Q.· · ·And so Paragraph 40 of your declaration,
`
`18· you're giving an opinion about what's been labeled
`
`19· Step 1A of Claim 1 of the 025 Patent, correct?
`
`20· A.· · ·Step 1A, yes.
`
`21· Q.· · ·And this step requires configuring a client
`
`22· system to receive and play music broadcasts from a
`
`23· broadcast media source?
`
`24· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`25· Q.· · ·And it's -- you've stated an opinion that
`
`IPR Page 16
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`·1· Macintosh discloses that step; is that correct?
`
`·2· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·3· Q.· · ·So you agree that Macintosh discloses a
`
`·4· client system that receives and plays music that's
`
`·5· been broadcast from a broadcast media source,
`
`·6· correct?
`
`·7· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·Will you turn now to page 12 of your
`
`·9· declaration.· In Paragraph 29, you state,
`
`10· Macintosh, quote, plays, end quote, broadcast
`
`11· material, such as music, along with any
`
`12· corresponding supplemental materials, correct?
`
`13· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`14· Q.· · ·What do you mean by, it plays the
`
`15· supplemental material, along with a music
`
`16· broadcast?
`
`17· A.· · ·Well, I think Macintosh itself has an
`
`18· explanation of its somewhat unusual use of the word
`
`19· "play."· For example, Macintosh talks about playing
`
`20· text.· Normally we wouldn't -- you know, we
`
`21· wouldn't use that phrase.· But Macintosh has its
`
`22· own specific lexicography in which it explains
`
`23· things like still images, text, music, video, all
`
`24· that, which to me means exhibiting them to the user
`
`25· in a format that the user can appreciate.
`
`IPR Page 17
`
`

`

`·1· Q.· · ·So Macintosh discloses -- what's the type of
`
`·2· word you used -- exhibiting.· So Macintosh
`
`·3· discloses exhibiting the supplemental materials at
`
`·4· the same time that the player's playing the
`
`·5· broadcast music?
`
`·6· A.· · ·Yeah.· So, I think, even exhibiting might
`
`·7· not be the right word because you don't exhibit
`
`·8· music.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·While exhibiting the supplementing material.
`
`10· A.· · ·Right.· But if the supplement material is
`
`11· another piece of music, it's rendering it in a form
`
`12· that a human can perceive.· So if it's something
`
`13· visual, then it shows it on a screen.· If it's
`
`14· something oral, then it'll play out of the
`
`15· speakers.
`
`16· Q.· · ·And it does that contemporaneously with
`
`17· playing whatever's on the radio broadcast, right?
`
`18· · · · · · · MR. KASSENOFF:· Objection.
`
`19· A.· · ·It can do that, yes.· So, for example, if
`
`20· I'm listening to music and it wants to show me the
`
`21· album cover art, then I see the album cover art at
`
`22· the same time it's playing the music, yes.
`
`23· Q.· · ·But you don't contend that Macintosh ever
`
`24· discloses rendering supplemental material when it's
`
`25· not playing radio broadcast, right?
`
`IPR Page 18
`
`

`

`·1· · · · · · · MR. KASSENOFF:· Objection; form.
`
`·2· A.· · ·I don't know that I contend it one way or
`
`·3· another on that.· So, for example, let us suppose
`
`·4· that music is playing and cover art is being
`
`·5· exhibited.· I don't recall a discussion in
`
`·6· Macintosh that says there's cover art disappears as
`
`·7· soon as the cover art is over.· I don't know.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·And do you agree that Macintosh's use of the
`
`·9· term "supplemental" -- would you agree that
`
`10· Macintosh uses the term "supplemental" in
`
`11· accordance with just its ordinary meaning?
`
`12· A.· · ·So I think if you're just restricting it to
`
`13· the word "supplemental," then I think that's right.
`
`14· But Macintosh doesn't just use the word
`
`15· "supplemental" by itself.· I think it's always in
`
`16· the context of supplemental materials and
`
`17· supplemental information, which it appears to use
`
`18· interchangeably.· But to my understanding,
`
`19· supplemental is something that supplements the
`
`20· music that's being played.
`
`21· Q.· · ·And you don't express an opinion that
`
`22· Macintosh has defined the term supplemental in
`
`23· something other than ordinary music?
`
`24· A.· · ·No, I don't express that opinion.· I don't
`
`25· think it would be accurate.
`
`IPR Page 19
`
`

`

`·1· Q.· · ·I think you're there already on page 12 of
`
`·2· the declaration.
`
`·3· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·4· Q.· · ·And my understanding of Macintosh, what
`
`·5· Macintosh discloses, is the user terminal.· Do you
`
`·6· see the user terminal of 212, page 12 that you've
`
`·7· reproduced?
`
`·8· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·And this is Figure 5 of the Macintosh
`
`10· reference, right?
`
`11· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`12· Q.· · ·And Macintosh discloses that that user
`
`13· terminal -- can use URL to obtain supplemental
`
`14· material, right?
`
`15· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`16· Q.· · ·And you'll agree that URLs as described in
`
`17· Macintosh specify the location of content, right?
`
`18· A.· · ·I think that's what URLs do.
`
`19· Q.· · ·If I told you that I have a bunch of images
`
`20· of my children on that computer right there, would
`
`21· you agree that I've specified the location of those
`
`22· images?
`
`23· · · · · · · MR. KASSENOFF:· Objection; form.
`
`24· A.· · ·No, because I wouldn't be able to find them.
`
`25· I need to know a specific filing of the complete
`
`IPR Page 20
`
`

`

`·1· path so that I could actually make a directory
`
`·2· request and obtain a particular picture.
`
`·3· Q.· · ·So if I told you that those images are in a
`
`·4· folder called images and the folder is on the
`
`·5· desktop --
`
`·6· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·7· Q.· · ·-- would you then -- I, then -- given you
`
`·8· information to locate the images?
`
`·9· A.· · ·You've given me some information, but you
`
`10· haven't given me information sufficient for me to
`
`11· retrieve a particular.· I can get a bunch of them,
`
`12· but I wouldn't know which one we had in mind.
`
`13· Q.· · ·Well, the question wasn't whether I gave you
`
`14· information to retrieve images, whether I've
`
`15· specified the location of the images?
`
`16· A.· · ·And I said, you've given me some information
`
`17· about the location.· You haven't given me the
`
`18· location.· It's like saying, I'll tell you other
`
`19· than Pittsburgh.· That gives you some information
`
`20· about where I live.· It doesn't enable you to find
`
`21· my house.
`
`22· Q.· · ·If you gave me your street address, would I
`
`23· be able to find your house?
`
`24· A.· · ·If that were a private home, yes.· If it
`
`25· were an apartment house, it probably isn't enough
`
`IPR Page 21
`
`

`

`·1· information.
`
`·2· Q.· · ·If it was an apartment house with the street
`
`·3· address and apartment number?
`
`·4· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·So if I give you -- let's say there's three
`
`·6· images in a folder called images and those were the
`
`·7· only three images in that folder, you could locate
`
`·8· those three images if I told you that the images
`
`·9· folder is on the desktop, right?
`
`10· A.· · ·Yes.· I could local the three of them, but I
`
`11· wouldn't know which one you had in mind.
`
`12· Q.· · ·Would you turn to page 18 of the
`
`13· declaration.
`
`14· A.· · ·I'm there.
`
`15· Q.· · ·And I'm looking -- I wanted to draw your
`
`16· attention to Paragraph 41.· So in Paragraph 41,
`
`17· you're rendering the opinion about what's been
`
`18· labeled 1B of Claim 1 of the 025 Patent, correct?
`
`19· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`20· Q.· · ·And your opinion is that Macintosh in view
`
`21· of how it discloses in --
`
`22· A.· · ·Yes.· Paragraph 41, of course, is to be read
`
`23· in conjunction with the material and claim on page
`
`24· 33.
`
`25· Q.· · ·And you give a citation in support of your
`
`IPR Page 22
`
`

`

`·1· opinion; you cite to Exhibit 1004, which is the
`
`·2· Macintosh reference, right?
`
`·3· A.· · ·Yes.· I cite to a bunch more than that on
`
`·4· page 33.
`
`·5· Q.· · ·Well, right here.· Let's just look at page
`
`·6· 18.· You're citing to two sections of the Macintosh
`
`·7· reference, right?
`
`·8· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·What portion of Macintosh are you relying on
`
`10· for the proposition that Macintosh discloses a
`
`11· video identifier identifying a video?
`
`12· A.· · ·Well, if you look on page 34, there's a
`
`13· citation -- actually, the first citation that I
`
`14· mention in Paragraph 41, Column 13 of Macintosh
`
`15· 11127, and there's italicized text, a URL provided
`
`16· by Data Server 214, for example, can be used by
`
`17· User Terminal 212, to retrieve videos from a web
`
`18· server via the internet.· And there's some dot,
`
`19· dot, dots in there, and there's some insignificant
`
`20· material.
`
`21· Q.· · ·Okay.· That's one portion of Macintosh.· Is
`
`22· there another portion of Macintosh that you're
`
`23· relying on for the purpose of Macintosh identifying
`
`24· an identifier identifying a video?
`
`25· A.· · ·Well, I rely on 13.· There seems to be,
`
`IPR Page 23
`
`

`

`·1· obviously, a typo in the citation.· It says,
`
`·2· Macintosh at 13 colon 34 to 35 but -- so the block
`
`·3· quote is a lot longer than one line, and two lines
`
`·4· long.· So this has to do with the retrieval of
`
`·5· images or videos related to the album.· So that
`
`·6· establishes the connection.· It's not just
`
`·7· retrieving the video, but it's retrieving a video
`
`·8· that is supplemental material.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·Are there other portions of Macintosh on
`
`10· which you're relying for the proposition that
`
`11· Macintosh discloses a video identifier identifying
`
`12· a video?
`
`13· A.· · ·Well, on page 34, I also cite Macintosh at
`
`14· Column 14, Lines 29 through Column 15, Line 10. I
`
`15· don't know if it's essential in order to support
`
`16· the proposition for the video identifier.· It
`
`17· explains the material on how the video identifier
`
`18· is found.
`
`19· Q.· · ·Are there any other portions of Macintosh in
`
`20· which you're relying, for your opinion that
`
`21· Macintosh discloses a video identifier, identifying
`
`22· a video?
`
`23· A.· · ·No.· I don't think I need to rely on
`
`24· anymore, undoubtedly, there are other places in
`
`25· Macintosh where that principle is cited, but -- and
`
`IPR Page 24
`
`

`

`·1· I think they would be duplicative of what I have
`
`·2· here.
`
`·3· Q.· · ·Do you listen to the car radio when you're
`
`·4· driving?
`
`·5· A.· · ·Very rarely.· But I have, yes.
`
`·6· Q.· · ·Have you listened to the car radio while
`
`·7· you've had a passenger in the car?
`
`·8· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· Q.· · ·Have you had the car radio on while you've
`
`10· had a conversation with a person in the car?
`
`11· A.· · ·Yes.· I would usually turn the volume down,
`
`12· but it all depends.· If I'm going to say, hey, look
`
`13· at that, and I'm trying to turn the volume down.
`
`14· But if I'm going to have an extended conversation
`
`15· about something, it would be annoying having the
`
`16· radio on talking over us.
`
`17· Q.· · ·Now, if -- let's say a colleague of yours
`
`18· suggested to you that you listen to a particular
`
`19· audio clip at the same time you listen to a certain
`
`20· radio program, is it possible that listening to
`
`21· both at the same time could be entertaining or
`
`22· informative?
`
`23· A.· · ·I can imagine circumstances in which the
`
`24· two pieces of audio were coordinated in some way so
`
`25· that together they form some kind of harmonious
`
`IPR Page 25
`
`

`

`·1· sound.· But if they were completely different from
`
`·2· one another, for example, listening to symphonic
`
`·3· music while listening to Winston Churchill's
`
`·4· speech, I think it would just be annoying.· It's
`
`·5· physically possible to do it, although I do recall
`
`·6· at the beginning of this deposition, you cautioned
`
`·7· me that we shouldn't be talking over each other.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·Okay.· All right.· The court reporter
`
`·9· appreciates that we don't talk over each other
`
`10· since she's transcribing the deposition, correct?
`
`11· A.· · ·That would be annoying for her if we were
`
`12· both talking at the same time, and in addition,
`
`13· making it difficult for her taking a transcript.
`
`14· Q.· · ·Let's turn to page 13 of your document.
`
`15· A.· · ·Page, which?
`
`16· Q.· · ·I'm sorry, 13.· It's 13 of your declaration.
`
`17· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`18· Q.· · ·And on this page, you've reproduced Figure 7
`
`19· from Macintosh, right?
`
`20· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`21· Q.· · ·And you would agree that Figure 7 shows an
`
`22· example of a user interface, that a user of the
`
`23· Macintosh system would see when they use the system
`
`24· to listen to broadcast material; is that correct?
`
`25· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`IPR Page 26
`
`

`

`·1· Q.· · ·What is your understanding of the box
`
`·2· labeled "Track Image 322"?
`
`·3· A.· · ·It seems to me -- and I'll just -- why don't
`
`·4· we consult Macintosh to see what Macintosh has to
`
`·5· say about 322, if anything.· Now, this is the case
`
`·6· where I have Macintosh up on my screen.· I'd like
`
`·7· to do a search for 322.· Yes.· So on page 16 of
`
`·8· Macintosh, there's a paragraph that begins at
`
`·9· Line 11.
`
`10· Q.· · ·Just a moment.· There's an ambiguity because
`
`11· there's two page numbers on this Exhibit 1004?
`
`12· A.· · ·Yeah.· I was using the Macintosh page
`
`13· number, not the IPR page number.
`
`14· Q.· · ·And the Macintosh page number, just so we're
`
`15· on the same page --
`
`16· A.· · ·Literally.
`
`17· Q.· · ·-- is the one at the top of the page?
`
`18· A.· · ·Correct.· It's page 16 at the top of the
`
`19· page, beginning at Line 11.· Actually, it really
`
`20· begins -- the paragraph begins later, but the quote
`
`21· I want to read is at Line 13.· "For the example of
`
`22· the radio station has provided in Figure 5, data
`
`23· window 302 can include an Album Image 322." I
`
`24· don't think it's necessary to read beyond that.
`
`25· That would be a still image of the album cover or
`
`IPR Page 27
`
`

`

`·1· some piece of art.
`
`·2· Q.· · ·So is this an example of Macintosh
`
`·3· disclosing the concept of a user listening to a
`
`·4· radio broadcast, and supplemental material is being
`
`·5· rendered at the same time the radio broadcast is
`
`·6· being played?
`
`·7· A.· · ·Yes.
`
`·8· Q.· · ·And what's your understanding of the track
`
`·9· information box 324?
`
`10· A.· · ·Continuing with the quote from page 16, the
`
`11· next phrase is, "Artist or album or track
`
`12· information 324."· So I would think that that would
`
`13· be a text or a visual information that, for
`
`14· example, would give the title of the track, the
`
`15· name or the artist or band, information about maybe
`
`16· how long the cut is.· Something like that.
`
`17· Q.· · ·And do you see a box up top that says,
`
`18· "Playing 314"?
`
`19· · · · ·What's your understanding of what this is
`
`20· trying to convey?
`
`21· A.· · ·Okay.· So I'm searching the 314.· There is a
`
`22· citation -- I mean, there's a use of 314 on the
`
`23· same page, but I'm going to see if there are any
`
`24· others.· There's only one reference to 314 in the
`
`25· whole specification.
`
`IPR Page 28
`
`

`

`·1· · · · ·On page 16 of Macintosh, Line 4, "The
`
`·2· controls illustrated in the examples of Figure 7
`
`·3· include a Volume Control 312, a status display 314,
`
`·4· et cetera, et cetera.· So it's only described as a
`
`·5· status display, but we can glean a little more
`
`·6· information from Figure 7, which shows a star-like
`
`·7· icon and the word "playing."· So that seems to
`
`·8· suggest that the particular cut is being played
`
`·9· now.
`
`10· Q.· · ·When you say "the particular cut," what do
`
`11· you mean?
`
`12· A.· · ·The particular piece of music.· So normally
`
`13· an album would be divided into different cuts.
`
`14· Q.· · ·You mean, the cut that's being broadcast by
`
`15· the radio station?
`
`16· A.· · ·That's what it seems to be.
`
`17· Q.· · ·And while you were reading that sentence
`
`18· about the status of 314, I heard you mention the
`
`19· volume control 312, so that Box 312 with the line
`
`20· and hash marks, you understand that to be a volume
`
`21· control, right?
`
`22· A.· · ·Yes.· That looks like a slideable -- the
`
`23· larger solid, vertical bar looks like a slider that
`
`24· one might be able to adjust by moving a mouse over
`
`25· it.
`
`IPR Page 29
`
`

`

`·1· Q.· · ·And since you're on page 16, do you see
`
`·2· where Macintosh discloses that the player control
`
`·3· made from other controls besides just what's shown?
`
`·4· I think it's on, like, Lines 8 to 9.
`
`·5· A.· · ·Yes.· I see that.· It's Lines 8 to 10.
`
`·6· Q.· · ·And

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