Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE COURT
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`Vv.
`
`ETHICON LLC
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR 2019-00880
`
`U.S. Patent 7,490,749 B2
`
`Thursday, May 14,
`
`Mary Grace Castleberry, RPR
`
`Reported by:
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE COURT
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`Vv.
`
`ETHICON LLC
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR 2019-00880
`
`U.S. Patent 7,490,749 B2
`
`Thursday, May 14,
`
`Mary Grace Castleberry, RPR
`
`Reported by:
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 2
`
`Deposition via Zoom of BRYAN KNODEL,
`
`Ph.D., a witness herein, called for examination by
`
`counsel for Ethicon LLC in the above-entitled matter,
`
`direction.
`
`pursuant to agreement,
`
`the witness being duly sworn
`
`by MARY GRACE CASTLEBERRY, a Notary Public in and for
`
`the District of Columbia,
`
`taken remotely via Zoom
`
`11:05 a.m., Thursday, May 14, 2020, and the
`
`proceedings being taken down by Stenotype by MARY
`
`GRACE CASTLEBERRY, RPR, and transcribed under her
`
`ss
`Alderson.
`
`‘
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.002
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.002
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`APPEARANCES :
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 3
`
`On behalf of Intuitive Surgical, Inc.:
`
`(202) 682-7153
`
`STEVEN R. KATZ, ESQ.
`
`JOSH GRISWOLD, ESQ.
`
`KENNETH DARBY, ESQ.
`
`Fish & Richardson
`
`1000 Maine Avenue, S.W.
`
`Washington, D.C.
`
`20024
`
`(202) 783-5070
`
`On behalf of Ethicon LLC:
`
`CHRISTOPHER PEPE, ESQ.
`
`KATHRYN KANTHA, ESQ.
`
`Weil Gotshal & Manges
`
`2001 M Street, N.W.
`
`Washington, D.C.
`
`20036
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.003
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.003
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Washington, DC
`
`CONTENTS
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 4
`
`(None marked. )
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`WITNESS
`
`BRYAN KNODEL, Ph.D.
`
`BY MR. PEPE
`
`BY MR. KATZ EXHIBITS
`
`Alderson
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.004
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.004
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 5
`
`Whereupon,
`
`PROCEEDINGS
`
`BRYAN KNODEL, Ph.D.,
`
`declaration as well as some of the references that
`
`was called as a witness by counsel for Ethicon, and
`
`having been duly sworn by the Notary Public, was
`
`examined and testified as follows:
`
`EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR ETHICON
`
`BY MR. PEPE:
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Good morning, Dr. Knodel.
`
`Good morning.
`
`Certainly we are trying to do this by
`
`videoconference, so it may be a little challenging in
`
`terms of hearing each other.
`
`So we'll just need to
`
`try to be patient today and work through that as best
`
`we can.
`
`You understand that you're here regarding
`
`a declaration that you submitted in IPR2019-00880
`
`regarding the '749 patent?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`I understand that.
`
`So I've just got some gquestions today I'd
`
`like to ask you about, you know,
`
`the contents of your
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.005
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.005
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 6
`
`you relied on in that declaration.
`
`So if we could start out, if you could
`
`make Exhibit 1016 available to you.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`I have it.
`
`Let me know when you're ready with that.
`
`And I believe this is one of the references that you
`
`So this is neither Shelton I nor Shelton
`
`have cited in your supplemental declaration?
`
`A.
`
`I recall we used the term -- I'm more
`
`comfortable referring to them as Shelton I and
`
`Shelton II.
`
`Is this Shelton I or Shelton II?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`This is neither Shelton I nor Shelton II.
`
`Oh.
`
`To help you get oriented, for example, if
`
`you go to page 6 of your supplemental declaration,
`
`and there's a footnote at the bottom of page 6 which
`
`refers to Exhibit 1016.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes,
`
`I do now. Yes.
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.006
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.006
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 7
`
`Q.
`
`-- but instead is a reference that you
`
`identified in your supplemental declaration.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`And so if we take a look at that footnote,
`
`in particular you talk about how this Exhibit 1016
`
`refers to using automatic retraction or manual
`
`retraction.
`
`Do you see that in your footnote?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I do see that, uh-huh.
`
`If we take a look at Exhibit 1016 and the
`
`instrument that's disclosed in there,
`
`this isa
`
`surgical stapler that includes an I-beam or an
`
`E-beam, correct?
`
`Yes, it is.
`
`And I'd like to refer you to paragraph 37
`
`And so when the user advances the I-beam
`
`instrument, that's going to hold the jaws
`
`correct?
`
`That's correct.
`
`And so in order to open the jaws after
`
`the user will need to fully retract that
`
`right?
`
`That is correct.
`
`aia
`Alderson.
`
`—
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.007
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.007
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`of 1016.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 8
`
`Okay.
`
`And I believe this is the paragraph that
`
`paragraph would say to me, yes. Q.
`
`you specifically cited in your declaration;
`
`is that
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`This is, yes.
`
`All right. And so is it your view that
`
`paragraph 37 describes using either automatic
`
`retraction or manual retraction?
`
`A.
`
`Yeah.
`
`I think -- I believe the word
`
`alternatively means that you can do one or the other.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So your view is that somebody
`
`wouldn't interpret that as requiring both automatic
`
`and manual, right?
`
`A.
`
`I think what this means is that this
`
`design has both.
`
`Q.
`
`So your interpretation of paragraph 37 is
`
`that the instrument disclosed in 1016 includes both
`
`an automatic retraction and a manual retraction?
`
`A.
`
`That's what the plain reading of that
`
`Okay. Does Exhibit 1016 describe how the
`
`ates
`Alderson.
`
`—
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.008
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.008
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 9
`
`automatic retraction would be performed in this
`
`instrument?
`
`A.
`
`I don't recall.
`
`I'd have to look through
`
`the reference in some detail to see if I could find
`
`the section that describes the details of the
`
`unclamp. Would you like me to look for that?
`
`Q.
`
`Yeah, you can take a couple of minutes if
`
`you want to look through it. Let me ask a prefatory
`
`question and maybe we can avoid having you look
`
`through that.
`
`So aside from using a retraction spring,
`
`how else would or how else could -- strike that. Let
`
`me just start this over.
`
`Aside from using a retraction spring, how
`
`else could automatic retraction be effectuated in
`
`The figures are brief in this particular -- so there's a lot of details that
`
`that instrument?
`
`A.
`
`In a general sense, automatic retraction
`
`could be initiated by any kind of stored energy. But
`
`when you also add the clause "in this instrument,"
`
`this is a -- this particular patent has very --
`
`relies on other patents.
`
`aan
`Alderson.
`
`_
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.009
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.009
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 10
`
`aren't shown in the figures in this particular
`
`patent.
`
`It jumps pretty much to the distal end of
`
`the device and the figures focus on the distal
`
`arrangements of the E-beam and channel and cartridge
`
`and drivers and all those details,
`
`the articulation
`
`joint, et cetera.
`
`So I can't -- certainly a spring is one
`
`stored energy means that would do it. There are
`
`others.
`
`I don't know what specifically the author
`
`had in mind when they wrote paragraph 38, but they
`
`certainly are trying to teach a retraction that is
`
`powered, but just because you don't see a cord, it
`
`initiated as soon as a firing stroke is completed or,
`
`in the alternate,
`
`the ability to unclamp with it
`
`manual with a lever 46.
`
`Q.
`
`So aside from a retraction spring, what
`
`other types of stored energy devices were you
`
`contemplating?
`
`A.
`
`Compressed gas.
`
`You could do it -- that's
`
`an example.
`
`I haven't really thought about all the
`
`different ways that you could effect it ina --
`
`assuming this device, based on its picture, isn't
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.010
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.010
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 11
`
`could have a battery in it.
`
`So there's no real detail provided as to
`
`the handle of this device in the figures of this
`
`patent.
`
`So, you know, it could be electric, it could
`
`be pneumatic, it could be hydraulic, it could be a
`
`spring.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. With that being said, you don't
`
`need to look through this reference to see if you can
`
`find it.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`I'd like to move on to a different
`
`reference.
`
`So if you could get out Exhibit 1023.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`And again, Exhibit 1023, it does list
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15 Mr. Shelton as the first inventor. But this, again,
`
`So in particular, going on to page 16
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22.
`
`is neither Shelton I or Shelton II.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Just so you know that.
`
`I do.
`
`And just to try to help you out, I'll try
`
`to point you where you reference this in your
`
`declaration.
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.011
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.011
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 12
`
`of your declaration,
`
`in paragraph 23, you refer to
`
`this particular exhibit.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`I'm on page 16, paragraph 23 and
`
`we're looking at 1023. Okay.
`
`Q.
`
`So my question is not about what's in your
`
`declaration per se, but I just wanted to orient you
`
`in terms of where you refer to this.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Uh-huh.
`
`So now again, Exhibit 1023 discloses a
`
`surgical instrument with an I-beam, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`And again, when the I-beam advances in
`
`1023,
`
`that I-beam is going to hold the jaws closed,
`
`1023?
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`And so in order to open the jaws in this
`
`instrument,
`
`the I-beam again would need to be fully
`
`retracted;
`
`is that correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Now, do you know how the I-beam is
`
`retracted in the instrument disclosed in Exhibit
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.012
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.012
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 13
`
`A.
`
`1023 uses a clamp trigger and a firing
`
`trigger.
`
`So they -- in order to retract the firing
`
`mechanism in this one,
`
`there's a spring 124,
`
`I
`
`believe, connected to the firing trigger 28, it looks
`
`like, and that spring would retract the firing
`
`mechanism.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So in this particular Exhibit 1023,
`
`the spring,
`
`I believe you said 124 is responsible for
`
`retracting the I-beam?
`
`A.
`
`Yeah.
`
`I'm looking at figure 9
`
`say that the firing system is fairly different than
`
`specifically, so you can help me out if you want.
`
`I
`
`think the figure is pointing to 124 as the spring
`
`that is attached to the second trigger. First
`
`trigger you clamp, second trigger you fire.
`
`So it
`
`would be,
`
`I think,
`
`labeled 28, but that could also be
`
`pointing to just the grips on the trigger.
`
`But that is -- that trigger moving back to
`
`its start position is -- being pulled back to its
`
`start position by the spring is what would pull back
`
`the firing mechanism.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Now,
`
`in Exhibit 1023,
`
`is it fair to
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.013
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.013
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 14
`
`what's disclosed in Shelton II?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`The firing mechanism of Exhibit 1023
`
`is the -- uses the mechanisms that were employed at
`
`Ethicon prior to E-beams and I-beams.
`
`So it has --
`
`this mechanism is the same as -- this handle
`
`mechanism is the same as the patent that we've
`
`referenced before -- I think it was
`
`'895 -- that I
`
`have with -- that I'm a principal inventor with with
`
`Ethicon.
`
`So this is a handle that was used before
`
`E-beams and I-beams and significantly different than
`
`the handles that they ended up going with in Swayze
`
`or Shelton II.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`All right. You can put 1023 to the side.
`
`Okay.
`
`And the next exhibit I would like you to
`
`is well on your end.
`
`take a look at is Exhibit 1024.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`MR. PEPE: And just before we proceed,
`
`I
`
`just want to make sure -- I'm assuming, because we
`
`haven't heard anything from the court reporter, all
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.014
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.014
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 15
`
`THE REPORTER: Yes, sir.
`
`It's wonderful.
`
`I can hear very clearly.
`
`Thank you.
`
`MR. PEPE:
`
`Thank you.
`
`I hope I didn't
`
`jinx us. We'll see what happens.
`
`BY MR. PEPE:
`
`So you're probably right. Q.
`
`Q.
`
`So, Dr. Knodel, Exhibit 1024 is another
`
`exhibit that you have referred to in your
`
`supplemental declaration. And just to orient you, if
`
`you look at the bottom of page 18 of your
`
`declaration, paragraph 26, you'll see a citation to
`
`Exhibit 1024?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes. Uh-huh.
`
`And I believe that this particular Exhibit
`
`1024 has been at issue in prior IPR proceedings that
`
`you've participated in, correct?
`
`A.
`
`They jumble together when you get to be my
`
`age, Chris.
`
`I'll rely on your --
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`If you say so.
`
`I do know that we've
`
`looked at powered surgical staplers in the
`
`proceedings before.
`
`Okay.
`
`I'm not going to hold you to that,
`
`aan
`Alderson.
`
`_
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.015
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.015
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 16
`
`but, you know,
`
`I just thought -- let me ask a
`
`different question.
`
`Prior to this proceeding, were you
`
`familiar with this patent, 1024?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`I am familiar with this patent, yes.
`
`And I'm going to refer to it as Hooven
`
`So if we could go to
`
`because it has been called Hooven in the past.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`I want to make sure you're on the same
`
`page with me when I refer to Hooven.
`
`And in Hooven,
`
`there is a discussion
`
`regarding force to fire that you refer to, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`And the solution taught about Hooven
`
`regarding force to fire is regarding the power of
`
`instrument, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That is what he's doing, yes. He's
`
`powering it.
`
`He recognizes that force to fire is an
`
`issue and so the solution is to provide a powered
`
`device.
`
`Q.
`
`Now,
`
`I want to ask you some questions
`
`about the disclosure in Hooven.
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.016
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.016
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 17
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`And I just want to see if we can get an
`
`agreement as to how this particular instrument shown
`
`in figure 6 will operate. And so I'm going to
`
`you some questions and certainly correct me if
`
`wrong or if you think I'm wrong.
`
`So you can see in figure 6 there
`
`75, which I believe would be referred to as
`
`that arcuit at cam and it would bring the anvil
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes. Uh-huh.
`
`And so in order for the jaws to close,
`
`is
`
`it correct that the closure nut 77 and closure pin
`
`would move distally -- I guess distally referring to
`
`up towards the top of the page?
`
`A.
`
`Looking at that figure,
`
`that is what I
`
`would -- without going to the specification and
`
`reading specifically what 78 and 77 are,
`
`just looking
`
`at the picture,
`
`I would agree with you there's a cam
`
`shown and it looks like in the wings of the anvil.
`
`And so when you advance that 77, which
`
`appears to be carrying 78,
`
`the pin would slide along
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.017
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.017
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 18
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So I don't want you to just do this
`
`based on the picture, so why don't you go to column 5
`
`and I believe that's where those features are
`
`discussed and you can take a look and confirm that
`
`that is what's happening.
`
`A.
`
`And it was figure 5 that we were looking
`
`at, right?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`It was figure 6.
`
`Figure 6. Okay. Yes,
`
`that is how it
`
`operates, as I described before.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. And so with that understanding,
`
`in
`
`order for the jaws to reopen in Hooven,
`
`the closure
`
`nut and closure pins would need to be retracted,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`So although it is not an I-beam, it is
`
`holding -- the closure nut and closure pin hold the
`
`jaws closed once its advanced distally like an
`
`I-beam, right? A.
`
`Correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And in Hooven, it discloses that in order
`
`aan
`Alderson.
`
`_
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.018
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.018
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 19
`
`to advance the I-beam, a motor is supplying the
`
`power, correct?
`
`agreeing with. There's other aspects of Hooven where
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Well,
`
`there is no I-beam.
`
`Sorry.
`
`Thank you for correcting me. Slip
`
`of the tongue there.
`
`So let me restate that.
`
`In Hooven,
`
`the closure nut and closure
`
`pins advance distally to close the jaws based on
`
`power supplied by a motor, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`And similarly,
`
`the closure nut and closure
`
`pins in Hooven are retracted based on power supplied
`
`by a motor, right?
`
`A.
`
`I want to just pause for a second. Hooven
`
`has more than one declaration or more than one
`
`exhibit.
`
`I'm just looking at figure 11.
`
`I don't
`
`want to misspeak. Because it shows a manual handle,
`
`as you can see in figure 11, a manual trigger.
`
`So can you restate that question? Because
`
`it sounded like you were saying that -- I just want
`
`to make sure that we're talking about the stapler is
`
`powered by the motor to advance the jaw. That I'm
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.019
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.019
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 20
`
`he uses a manual lever to do a function in the
`
`device.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. That's an important distinction.
`
`So why don't we -- what is the device that's
`
`disclosed in figure 11?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Figure 11 is a clip applier.
`
`And if we're looking at figure 11, what is
`
`mechanism is what's shown in figure 12 which is --
`
`the handle doing?
`
`A.
`
`Again,
`
`I would like to double-check the
`
`specification. But my understanding from previously
`
`looking at this patent is the handle in figure 11
`
`actually does the closing of the clip. You see the
`
`arrow,
`
`the arrow showing that the handle is -- that
`
`the trigger is being pulled back corresponds to the
`
`arrows at the front showing that the clip is being
`
`squeezed.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So in the embodiment disclosed in
`
`figure 11,
`
`is there a closure nut and closure pins as
`
`there is in the embodiment shown starting, well,
`
`I
`
`guess in figure 6 that we were talking about?
`
`A.
`
`I don't believe so.
`
`I think it's -
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.020
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.020
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 21
`
`the drive shaft is advancing and retracting the clip
`
`feed mechanism. You pull back to pick up the next
`
`clip, you move forward, move distally to move that
`
`clip into the jaw. And it looks like it's
`
`overlapping threaded rods. But once again, we could
`
`look in detail in the specification. But I don't see
`
`a nut in this figure. Or in the related figures,
`
`figure 13.
`
`reference we were just looking at.
`
`Q.
`
`So why don't we limit our discussion to
`
`the embodiment shown in figure 6. We know that's the
`
`closure nut and closure pin, okay?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So in this particular embodiment, would
`
`you agree that the closure nut and closure pins are
`
`retracted based on power supplied by the motor?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`And would you agree that that would be
`
`considered a form of automatic retraction?
`
`A.
`
`Not necessarily.
`
`The one -- the automatic
`
`retraction is -- sometimes talks about that it's
`
`automatically initiated,
`
`that -- or that other
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.021
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.021
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 22
`
`At the end of stroke, it automatically
`
`initiates.
`
`The automatic is the -- the word can be
`
`referring to just the initiation,
`
`that it's started,
`
`that it's -- yeah,
`
`initiated is a good word.
`
`Initiated automatically by some event.
`
`In the case
`
`of the previous patent we looked at, it was initiated
`
`by the end of stroke.
`
`So that could be -- so when you use the
`
`term "automatic," what I would say is that this has
`
`powered retraction.
`
`I don't know that it's
`
`automatic.
`
`It may require the user to push a button
`
`closure nut and closure pins?
`
`or do something else.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Would you consider it manual retraction?
`
`No,
`
`I would not.
`
`It may be manually
`
`actuated or triggered or initiated. Let's use that
`
`word.
`
`It may be manually initiated, but the force
`
`that is doing the retraction is the powering,
`
`the
`
`powered shaft.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So the embodiment in figure 6 of
`
`Hooven,
`
`is there a separate mechanism disclosed for
`
`the user to manually supply force for retracting the
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.022
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.022
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 23
`
`A.
`
`I would need to look more fully. There's
`
`nothing shown in figure 6, but we're only looking at
`
`the distill end.
`
`I don't know if there's a manual --
`
`a way that if the motor were to fail,
`
`that you can
`
`manually -- if we look at the handle -- oftentimes on
`
`mechanical devices, they'll have a manual backup just
`
`in case there's a failure of the motor system.
`
`So we
`
`might want to look for that, Chris,
`
`to be sure we're
`
`you cited in your supplemental declaration?
`
`thorough.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`I mean, why don't you take a minute
`
`to take a look and see if you see anything. And you
`
`can look at the figures,
`
`read the specification.
`
`A.
`
`(Witness complies.)
`
`All right. Yeah,
`
`I don't see a reference
`
`to a manual backup for the motor system that advances
`
`and retracts the closure block pin assembly.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So I think you can put Hooven to
`
`the side. And why don't we take a look at Exhibit
`
`1025.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I have 1025 up.
`
`And again,
`
`this is another reference that
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.023
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.023
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 24
`
`Uh-huh.
`
`In particular, paragraph 27.
`
`Okay.
`
`And so Exhibit 1025 is another reference
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`that discusses force to fire, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`It does, yes.
`
`And the solution taught by Exhibit 1025
`
`with respect to force to fire is the power of the
`
`instrument, right?
`
`A.
`
`1025? Let me see.
`
`I don't recall 1025
`
`being a powered device, but
`
`I could be recalling
`
`badly.
`
`Q.
`
`All right. Let me see if I can help you
`
`them mixed up. A.
`
`A.
`
`Oh, yes.
`
`I see it now. No, you're
`
`correct.
`
`I apologize. You're correct, yes, it is a
`
`power device.
`
`Q.
`
`No problem.
`
`I know it's a long reference
`
`and there's a lot of exhibits, so it's easy to get
`
`Yeah.
`
`Q.
`
`And so in Exhibit 1025,
`
`this instrument
`
`ates
`Alderson.
`
`—
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 25
`
`also has an I-beam, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`In the appropriate figure.
`
`So why don't you take a look and I think
`
`figure 3 might help.
`
`Okay.
`
`A.
`
`Yeah,
`
`I'm on it now.
`
`I see figure 3 and I
`
`do see an I-beam, yes.
`
`Q.
`
`And so in the instrument disclosed in
`
`Exhibit 1025,
`
`the motor supplies the power to advance
`
`the I-beam, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That is correct.
`
`And to retract the I-beam,
`
`the motor also
`
`supplies the power, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That is correct as well.
`
`Now, does the instrument disclosed in
`
`Exhibit 1025 include a separate mechanism that allows
`
`a user to supply manual force to retract the I-beam?
`
`A.
`
`Again, I'll have to try to look at the
`
`specification to see if they -- you know how
`
`specifications are.
`
`They can slip a paragraph in
`
`here and there just to -- without necessarily having
`
`a figure that specifically shows it.
`
`So let me look.
`
`Q.
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.025
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.025
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 26
`
`A.
`
`It's interesting, Chris,
`
`the -- so this
`
`device has a firing trigger.
`
`It's trigger number 20
`
`in figure 2.
`
`So it clearly has a manual aspect.
`
`This device has a manual trigger 18 to clamp anda
`
`manual trigger 20.
`
`So it's a little bit unclear why
`
`there's a lever there.
`
`I think there's also a -- you know,
`
`there's a lever there that is the traditional firing
`
`lever and yet clearly there's a motor.
`
`So it's going
`
`to take me some time to figure out what the
`
`combination they're using here.
`
`exactly the trigger is doing.
`
`As you know,
`
`I cited this reference for
`
`the comment about the need to lower the force to
`
`fire.
`
`So I haven't really studied this reference, at
`
`least not recently,
`
`to know exactly what they're
`
`exactly doing with having that mechanical firing
`
`lever and a motor.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Maybe to help you out, why don't
`
`you take a look at paragraph 64.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`And that might help you figure out what
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.026
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.026
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 27
`
`A.
`
`So in paragraph 64, it describes that the
`
`firing trigger is used to trigger a sensor that
`
`starts the motor. And in fact,
`
`the force of the
`
`motor is proportional to the force applied to the
`
`trigger. Okay. That clears that up.
`
`So what was
`
`the question?
`
`products ever experiencing a malfunction in the
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So the original question, does the
`
`instrument disclosed in Exhibit 1025 include a
`
`separate mechanism that allows a user to supply
`
`manual force to retract the I-beam?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I don't believe so.
`
`Okay. You can put that to the side.
`
`I do have some questions for you about
`
`your experience designing surgical staplers.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Now,
`
`I understand from our previous
`
`discussions, you have experience from your time at
`
`Ethicon designing certain surgical staplers?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Now, are you aware of any devices that you
`
`designed at Ethicon that resulted in commercial
`
`aia
`Alderson.
`
`—
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.027
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.027
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 28
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you recall any specific
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`examples?
`
`A.
`
`I can remember an MDR related to a gear
`
`failure in an endo cutter where the gear broke and we
`
`had to do a root cause investigation, figure out why
`
`the strength of the gear had changed. We tracked it
`
`to a material change and were able to relaunch the
`
`product.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you recall what product that
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`failed?
`
`I think it was the EZ 35.
`
`And what was the function of the gear that
`
`A.
`
`It was -- as I recall, it was part of the
`
`firing gear train that converted the trigger pull to
`
`the linear stroke of the shaft that advanced the
`
`wedge and knife to form the staples.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. And I believe you said that was due
`
`to a material change with respect to the gear? A.
`
`Yes, it was, actually.
`
`aan
`Alderson.
`
`_
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.028
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.028
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 29
`
`Q.
`
`Do you recall who was involved in deciding
`
`to make that material change?
`
`A.
`
`That was -- actually the sad thing is that
`
`no one at Ethicon was involved in that decision.
`
`It
`
`was a decision made by our component supplier against
`
`the policy that we documented putting in place a
`
`control plan that they're supposed to produce parts
`
`to going forward and make no changes without
`
`Thank you for that caution.
`
`notifying us first.
`
`And in this particular case,
`
`the supplier
`
`changed the process which altered the material
`
`properties of this component and resulted in a change
`
`in its physical strength, without notifying Ethicon.
`
`MR. KATZ: And Dr. Knodel and Chris, both
`
`of you,
`
`I guess,
`
`this is an open transcript.
`
`Just
`
`both of you should be -- or ask Dr. Knodel.
`
`If you
`
`think that the answer would reveal confidential
`
`information,
`
`just bring that up just so Chris can
`
`have the choice of putting it on the record or he
`
`might want to move on.
`
`THE WITNESS: Okay.
`
`MR. PEPE:
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.029
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.029
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2019-00880
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`BY MR. PEPE:
`
`Washington, DC
`
`5/14/2020
`Page 30
`
`there are malfunctions in the use of endoscopic
`
`Q.
`
`And aside from that, can you recall any
`
`other instruments that you had worked on designing at
`
`Ethicon that had malfunctions in the field?
`
`A.
`
`Yeah,
`
`I think endo cutters in particular
`
`are challenging devices. And I think the other area
`
`of concern with respect to them was actually
`
`difficulty clamping the device.
`
`The tissue would be
`
`thick and there'd be high forces. There were
`
`complaints about that.
`
`The malfunction that would
`
`result would be incomplete staple form which could
`
`cause bleeding if the jaw did not close completely
`
`enough due to the high thickness of the tissue,
`
`the
`
`high compressibility.
`
`As we've discussed before, my primary area
`
`of work at Ethicon was endoscopically linear
`
`staplers. As such, it's in the public record that
`
`the endoscopic linear staplers from all manufacturers
`
`have a fairly high rate of MDR because they're doing
`
`very challenging procedures.
`
`So it's a matter of public record that
`
`Alderson.
`
`©
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`Alderson Court Reporting
`A Trustpoint Company
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`www.AldersonReporting.com
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`Ethicon Exhibit 2020.030
`Intu
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