Trials@uspto.gov Paper 40
`571-272-7822
` Entered: October 1, 2020
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`__________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`__________
`
`FACEBOOK, INC., INSTAGRAM, LLC, AND WHATSAPP, INC.,
`Petitioner
`
`v.
`
`BLACKBERRY LIMITED,
`Patent Owner.
`__________
`
`IPR2019-00942
`Patent 8,677,250 B2
`____________
`
`
`Record of Oral Hearing
`Held: September 8, 2020
`__________
`
`Before MIRIAM L. QUINN, GARTH D. BAER, and AARON W. MOORE,
`Administrative Patent Judges.
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`571-272-7822
` Entered: October 1, 2020
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`__________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`__________
`
`FACEBOOK, INC., INSTAGRAM, LLC, AND WHATSAPP, INC.,
`Petitioner
`
`v.
`
`BLACKBERRY LIMITED,
`Patent Owner.
`__________
`
`IPR2019-00942
`Patent 8,677,250 B2
`____________
`
`
`Record of Oral Hearing
`Held: September 8, 2020
`__________
`
`Before MIRIAM L. QUINN, GARTH D. BAER, and AARON W. MOORE,
`Administrative Patent Judges.
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`IPR2019-00942
`Patent 8,677,250 B2
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
`
`MARK R. WEINSTEIN, ESQ.
`Cooleys, LLP
`1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
`Suite 700
`Washington, DC 20004-2400
`1-202-842-7800
`mweinstein@cooley.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
`
`SAM STAKE, ESQ.
`Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan, LLP
`1300 I Street, NW
`Suite 900
`Washington, DC 20005
`1202-538-8000
`samstake@quinnemanuel.com
`
`Also Present:
`Heidi Keefe
`Nikki Vo
`
`
`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Tuesday,
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`September 8, 2020, commencing at 1:00 p.m. EDT, via Videoconference.
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`P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
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`1:00 p.m.
`JUDGE BAER: Good afternoon, everyone. This is our hearing
`for IPR2019-00942. This addresses Patent Number 8,677,250. This will
`be between Petitioner's Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp, and Patent
`Owner, Blackberry. Before we get going, I'm Judge Baer and with me are
`Judges Quinn and Moore.
`Let's go ahead and get the parties' appearances, if we could, please.
`Who do we have for the Petitioner?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: This is Mark Weinstein from Cooley, LLP, for
`Petitioner. Also on the line with me is Heidi Keefe, designated as lead
`counsel, and also listening in is Nikki Vo, for the court reporter, that's N-I-
`K-K-I, V-O, from Facebook in-house legal.
`JUDGE BAER: Thank you, Mr. Weinstein. And will you be
`presenting argument?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor.
`JUDGE BAER: Great. Thank you. And who do we have for
`Patent Owner, Blackberry?
`MR. STAKE: Sam Stake from Quinn Emanuel for Patent Owner,
`Blackberry, and with me, I believe on the public line, is our designated lead
`counsel, Jim Glass.
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`JUDGE BAER: Great. Thank you, Mr. Stake. And I assume
`you'll be presenting the argument for Patent Owner, is that correct?
`MR. STAKE: That's correct.
`JUDGE BAER: Great. Thank you. We set forth our procedure
`in our hearing order a little bit earlier, but just a few reminders, the parties
`will each have 45 minutes total time to present their arguments. We do
`have the full record, we have all the papers, and your slides that you all
`submitted, but it will help to keep the record clear if you'll just tell us which
`slide number you're referring to as you go through or which exhibit you're
`referring to.
`Also, if you wouldn't mind muting your line if you're done talking
`and if it's been some time since you've spoken, it will help our court reporter
`if you will identify who you are before you go ahead and speak.
`I think that's about it. Let me also say that we certainly appreciate
`everybody making the effort to be here by video. Obviously, these are
`helpful and we appreciate you making the effort to be here.
`Before we get going, does counsel for Petitioner have any questions
`for us, Mr. Weinstein?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: No, Your Honor.
`JUDGE BAER: Great. And, Mr. Stake, any questions on your
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`part?
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`MR. STAKE: No, Your Honor, nothing for me.
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`JUDGE BAER: Great. With that, I think we are ready to begin.
`Petitioner, you'll be going first. Do you wish to reserve any of your 45
`minutes for rebuttal?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: If it's okay with you, Your Honor, I'd like to
`reserve 15 minutes.
`JUDGE BAER: Great. We'll put 30 minutes on the clock and you
`may start when you are ready.
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Thank you very much, Your Honor. As Your
`Honor referenced, the parties have filed demonstrative exhibits. I'm going
`to be referring to ours, that, for the record, is Exhibit 1023. Petitioner's
`demonstrative exhibit, and obviously, like all these arguments, we're going
`to be skipping around, depending on where the flow of the argument takes
`us and where the questions from the Panel take us.
`I'll go straight to Slide 4. There's only been one instituted ground
`of IPR, it's a single ground, it's the only ground that was proposed, it covers
`all of the asserted claims, and it's a three-item combo of Galli, Crane, and
`Miyaji.
`Now, the arguments in the post-institution record has really revealed
`that the arguments and the disputes really only relate to the independent
`claims and dependent Claim 6. The vast majority of the arguments are
`directed at those two issues.
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`So I'm going to skip forward to Slide 7, and sort of give you -- give
`the Panel an overview of the instituted combination, because I think
`understanding the combination, both explains why, in our view, the claims
`are unpatentable, and I think it also answers a lot of the arguments that the
`Patent Owner has made in their Patent Owner response, and then sort of
`additional points made in their sur-reply.
`On Slide 7 we can see that there are three different references, Galli,
`Crane, and Miyaji, and they're all used for different reasons in part of the
`combination, and the petitioner provides a layered set of motivations to
`combine with respect to the combination with Galli and Crane, and then the
`further combination with Miyaji, and we'll go through those briefly.
`Starting with Slide 8, we have the Galli reference, and Galli is, in
`some ways, the base reference. It provides the instant messaging system.
`On Slide 8 you can see Figure 5A, which is Jose's contact list, that's from
`Galli Figure 5A, and you can see that next to each contact, there is -- there
`can be what's called an IMLet icon. That's I-M-L-E-T.
`It's similar to an applet, but IM is like IMLet, instant messaging, so
`it's essentially a middleware software agent that sits between the instant
`messaging system and whatever third-party application you have that allows
`you to integrate the third-party application functionality into the instant
`messaging system.
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`There's an example here of a video player, that's what's being pointed
`to, there's also language translators, word processors, there's lots of
`examples, and it's an open-ended list. As the Board acknowledged in the
`institution decision, it doesn't limit what the applications can be.
`Now, one of the key things to understand about Galli is, Galli
`provides its own reasons and it touts its own benefits. Page 26 of our
`petition explains that Galli has this benefit where it allows you to enhance
`the capabilities of an IM system by allowing you to integrate non-IM
`functionality.
`Galli Paragraph 115 says, the framework according to this invention
`adds value by giving the use of the ability to share and compose data beyond
`text, images, or web links. This is a two-way benefit. It benefits both the
`application that you're using, as well as the IM system, and basically allows
`you to get a richer experience.
`In fact, the Galli even calls the IM system a RIM, rich instant
`messaging application, because of the expansion of the user interface. The
`IMLets, as was explained in our petition, they're basically what facilitates
`the communication between the application and the IM system and they
`allow the application to use the IM to communicate application data through
`the other system.
`The next slide, Slide 9, goes into our next reference, which is Crane.
`Crane is basically a turn-based game. And turn-based game is basically a
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`game where parties take turns and the game is effectively suspended while
`you're waiting for the other person to play and move.
`Crane is a turn-based game that can be operated over a network and
`in its example it uses chess, although, there's other examples, like spades, in
`Crane that can be used as well as a turn-based game.
`JUDGE QUINN: I have a question.
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Crane, though provides -- yes, Your Honor.
`JUDGE QUINN: Yes, Mr. Weinstein, back on Galli, are you
`relying on the underlying rich instant messaging application as well to send
`the messages or only the contact list?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Your Honor, that's a great question. If you
`look at Page 30 of our petition, and there's a whole bunch of limitations
`about preparing game messages to be sent using the IM application, under
`the combination, we're actually using the Galli framework, so the Galli
`IMLets are what you would use to send it.
`So under the combination of Galli with Crane, Crane's game packets,
`which are the -- which we've mapped to the game messages, it would be sent
`to the other side using the framework of Galli, the instant messaging
`framework in Galli, including the IMLet, and that's how the communication
`would be facilitated.
`You would not be using Crane's internal IM system, actually, you
`would never do that because if you use Crane's system, you basically have
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`an independent game application with no interaction with the IM system.
`You give up all of Galli's benefits.
`But I hopefully answered your question, Your Honor. Absolutely,
`in the combination you're using Galli's IM framework to send the actual
`game messages, in addition to providing the contact list limitations that we
`discussed.
`The third part, Your Honor, of the combination is on Slide 10, and
`that's the one where I think most of the arguments are about, and that's this
`reference in Miyaji. Miyaji is a similar reference and it describes a turn-
`based game. In this case, it's Shogi, which is basically the Japanese
`variation of chess.
`Miyaji explains that like any turn-based game, you have this problem
`where you don't really know where the game is. In fact, if you look at
`Paragraph 0006, this was cited in our petition, Miyaji explains, in a turn-
`based game like Shogi, quote, a client has to wait for a long time until the
`game ends because the game does not proceed until an opponent player has
`not even moved when the client moves.
`I think it was probably translated from the original language, but the
`grammar's a bit shoddy, but the idea here is that the game is effectively
`suspended, so it can go on for a long time, and there's examples in Miyaji
`where the game can go on for potentially days or longer.
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`The benefit of Miyaji is this match list you can see on Slide 10.
`The match list gives you, basically, a list of all of the games you have going
`on with your contacts. And what -- that are currently going on.
`We don't argue it's a contact list, we're arguing it's analogous to it,
`but a contact list limitation was used in the Galli contact list. What we're
`using in the match list is a specific line item that tell you what the current
`status of the game is.
`And you can see, there's eight different games going on here, some
`of them are not even started, some haven't registered, some of them have
`won or lost, and there's three of them here that we focus on because those
`are actually games that happen to be ongoing.
`Games 2 and 3, you can see there's the word move, M-O-V-E.
`Miyaji explains that, what that means is that the person looking at this
`screen, the person looking at Figure 4, that person has made the last move.
`Game 4, you can see, it says, yet, Y-E-T, that means the person looking at
`this screen has yet to make a move, in other words, it's the viewer of this
`screen's turn to make the next move in Shogi or whatever turn-based game
`you are going to use.
`So the combination is actually relatively straightforward and you can
`see it illustrated on Slide 11. And Slide 11 shows on the left side,
`basically, a mockup that our expert created just sort of to illustrate what the
`combination would look like.
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`Now, obviously, we made clear in our petition, the law doesn't
`require physical combination or bodily incorporation of elements, but this
`does help you envision what the combination would look like in practice.
`And you can see what's been added is, the IMLet icon for the turn-based
`game, and under the combination you create an IMLet for the Galli chess
`game, and below it you have the line from Miyaji showing what's the current
`status of the game.
`In this case, we've picked the yet line, but it could be any line that's
`in the Miyaji match list. Now, the big argument that Patent Owner makes
`is, what is your motivation to put that line from Miyaji in the contact list of
`Galli? Why would you do that? And they keep arguing that.
`There are really two explanations provided in the petition and they're
`really all one in the same. First, as Your Honors point out in the institution
`decision, this provides useful information about the game. In this case, it
`tells you what the current status of the game is. In this case, you can see
`the game with Etza, it's Jose's turn to make a move.
`That's very useful information because as we all know, turn-based
`games, they can go on for a long period of time. I mean, there's Guinness
`Books of World Records in which people have correspondence chess, where
`you send chess moves over mail, over a period of decades. That's an
`extreme example, but the idea here is, by telling Jose that it's his turn to
`move, it helps move the game play forward, because if Jose didn't have this
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`notification on this screen, he would probably not even know he has to make
`a move until he launches the game application, and who knows when he's
`going to do that.
`The second motivation to combine is related to the first. It's
`describing the petition, and in Paragraph 64 of Dr. Chatterjee's opening
`declaration, Exhibit 1002. Dr. Chatterjee explains that not only is there
`useful information, but you can click on this line item, this yet line that you
`see in Slide 11, you can actually click on it and go to that game.
`And the reason that's valuable is because as Miyaji explains, you
`may have games going with a lot of different players at the same time, and if
`you just had a generic icon to go to the application, that wouldn't necessarily
`take you to the specific game that you want, but this allows you to actually
`not only see the status of the game with Etza, but actually go directly to that
`game by clicking on the particular line item.
`That's a specific capability provided by Miyaji. Those two
`capabilities both providing the status of the game as well as providing a
`convenient way to switch to the game, those provide, we believe, ample
`motivation to adapt the contact list of Galli to provide the indication of game
`play in the contact list.
`JUDGE BAER: Mr. Weinstein?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor.
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`JUDGE BAER: It is Miyaji, is it not, that teaches that, that yet
`entry is clickable, correct?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor.
`JUDGE BAER: And you're bringing that clickability into Galli,
`correct?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: I don't think that's -- yes, Your Honor, I don't
`think you would need it necessarily to meet the claim because the IMLet
`icon itself would also be clickable, but yes, under the combination, if you
`were to impute it in there, absolutely, it would also be clickable.
`JUDGE BAER: Well, I'm asking not whether I would, but in your
`combination, do you rely on the clickability feature from Galli or do you
`rely, in your petition, on the clickability feature as disclosed in Miyaji?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: I'm looking at the petition, we mention both,
`but it does look like our petition does rely on the clickability feature of Galli,
`at least for some of the claims. I think Claim 5, for example, actually
`expressly recites the ability to, upon detecting the contact list, and for that
`limitation, for example, Claim 5, we specifically point to the particular yet
`line for that clickability.
`JUDGE BAER: So it doesn't really matter, does it, that Miyaji
`teaches that it's clickable because Galli teaches it's clickable, and that's what
`you rely on, correct?
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`MR. WEINSTEIN: Well, I think there's two issues of clickability.
`For the independent claim, there's not really a limitation in the independent
`claim about the clickability within the contact list, the clickability within the
`independent claim is the ability to activate it from within the instant
`messaging conversation.
`And that's a functionality provided by Galli. I'm sorry, provided by
`Galli itself. But you're right, you could rely on either of them to provide
`clickability. They both do. I think Miyaji has the benefit that the
`clickability doesn't just take you to the application, it actually takes you to
`the specific game, and that does provide an additional motivation to
`combine, but you are correct, Your Honor, that in terms of the contact list
`clickability, either of them will take you to the game application.
`Miyaji just takes you more specifically to the particular game that
`you're talking about.
`JUDGE BAER: Well, the reason why I ask is, it seems to me some
`of the arguments that Patent Owner raised about combinability and some of
`the different protocols matter if we're talking about using Miyaji's teaching
`of clickability, but if we're talking about using the base reference, Galli's
`clickability, then those seem to be less significant to me, so that's why I ask.
`So it seems to me that you're relying on Galli here. All you need is
`text showing moves, and then if you combine that with Galli's ability to click
`in a user list and go to the game, that you get what you need, is that correct?
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`MR. WEINSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor. You are correct that -- in
`other words, for a person of skill in the art to arrive at the claimed invention,
`you are 100 percent correct, you don't need to rely on the clickability of
`Miyaji in order to arrive at the system that meets all the limitations of the
`claims. You are correct, Your Honor, you could rely just on the IMLet
`icon in order to provide that functionality.
`JUDGE BAER: And where is your best statement from your expert
`that these would be combinable in the way that you suggest, and that a
`person of skill in the art wouldn't have any difficulty with these
`implementation details?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: It's actually -- from the implementation of the
`user interface aspect, I don't think there's really that much dispute about the
`implementation of the user interface, but the clearest -- it's both in the
`original declaration, Your Honor, as far as, you know, there is, sort of --
`there's two places where it shows up.
`It shows up in the petition in -- I'll find the exact spot for you, Your
`Honor. There is a discussion on Paragraph 65 and 66 where Dr. Chatterjee
`talks about the fact that you could implement the claim combination using
`known and conventional techniques, and that's not disputed.
`The other side is not disputing that there's a reasonable expectation
`of success, including the claim combination, but Dr. Cullimore does not
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`dispute that. In fact, the post-institution record, Your Honor, has actually
`expanded the evidence on how easy this would be to implement.
`You know, when I asked Dr. Cullimore, how would you implement
`a system where you put contact information from a game on to the contact
`list, he says, well, you just use an API or some kind of application protocol
`interface, and, you know, that's what he argued.
`So there's testimony from him and from Dr. Chatterjee, sort of
`building on that, saying, if a person was actually going to build the claimed
`invention, they could use very, very basic techniques of using, for example,
`application programming interfaces.
`The whole purpose of these interfaces is to provide information from
`one piece of code to another and pass information back and forth. That
`would be an easy way to implement it.
`Now, with respect to the claimed combination, our position is that
`the manner in which the information from the game gets to the contact list
`isn't specified in the claim. And I don't think the Patent Owner is arguing
`anymore that it requires the game application to directly write to the contact
`list or directly feed information to the contact list. I think they seem to be
`acknowledging it can be done indirectly.
`But in our view, those implementation details go more to the
`question of reasonable expectation of success than they do to the disclosure,
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`and reasonable expectation of success has not been disputed by Patent
`Owner, as far as I can tell.
`JUDGE MOORE: Is there a teaching in the references that shows
`using the contact list to convey game information or similar information?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: There's specific disclosure in Galli, is of
`course, the IMLet icon. The IMLet icon, which, if you look back at the
`slide we just had, the IMLet icon is on Slide 11, that there is -- you would
`have that to show that there is a game associated with it.
`Now, with respect to the next point about the yet issue, there's no
`express disclosure in Galli of supplementing the icon with additional
`information. That's an adaption that we're relying on Miyaji to provide.
`In other words, we're saying that Miyaji has a very analogous kind of list,
`the match list, and so you could include the information from Miyaji's match
`list on to the contact list of Galli.
`JUDGE MOORE: Okay. But there's no suggestion in the prior art
`at least that you would use a contact list to convey the game information.
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Within Galli itself, no. Within Miyaji, we
`think Miyaji provides that suggestion because it gives you the match list, the
`match list is closely analogous to a contact list, because it's listing, basically,
`communications you have with a player that happen in the game.
`We think that provides the suggestion to provide that information on
`the contact list, but we agree, Galli itself doesn't disclose an express
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`suggestion of that, yet, Galli doesn't expressly disclose, you know, providing
`additional information in the contact list beyond the IMLet icon, but that is
`something a person skilled in the art would find obvious, in light of the
`additional teachings of Miyaji and the motivations that we've provided.
`JUDGE BAER: Well, I want to make sure we don't -- this is Judge
`Baer, I want to make sure we don't sell Galli short. I mean, to be clear,
`Galli certainly suggests putting application information in a contact list. It
`doesn't suggest it, it just flat-out discloses it. You've got a movie icon in a
`contact list. What it doesn't have is a game and game progress in the
`contact list, do I have that right?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Absolutely correct, Your Honor. Because in
`fact, the game icon would -- like, Your Honor, when you register the
`application with Galli, so if you look at the figure we have, which is in Slide
`11, the first part about it, Your Honor, the icon showing the chess piece, you
`get that automatically from Galli.
`If you register the application with the Galli system through an
`IMLet, you're going to get that icon. So that is absolutely 100 percent
`expressly disclosed, so I wasn't trying to suggest it doesn't disclose the
`application, just to say, the specific example in Miyaji, you know, that
`specific example is not there, but you are correct, there's absolutely
`suggestions to put application information in the contact list.
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`JUDGE QUINN: Where do you go from what is displayed on
`Slide 11, which is the contact list, with game play and game progress
`information, to what the claim requires, that you actually have an instant
`message with the game progress information, how do you get from this
`screen to that other screen?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: That other screen actually -- this particular
`screen is really focusing on the first limitation, which is the enabling the
`game application in the contact list. In the later analysis in the petition, you
`look around, like, Page 30, it talks about how, under the combination, you're
`using the IMLet in Galli, which again, you have to write a specific IMLet for
`any application that you use to the Galli system.
`And so what the petition explains is that you're actually using the
`IMLet in order to facilitate the communication across the instant messaging
`channel. I can give you a specific cite for that, but no, that particular
`screenshot is really dedicated only to the first limitation about showing the
`contact list, because that's where the arguments go, but if you go down the
`petition, it talks about how the framework of Galli's IMLet system is
`actually being used to transmit the game messages, which, in the case of
`Crane, are the game packets.
`JUDGE QUINN: Okay. Got it. So do you really need this
`status information here in the contact list, the yet statement?
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`MR. WEINSTEIN: The reason we use it is because it says in the
`claim limitations, identifying game play in the contact list, and so we were --
`honestly, we were being conservative because there's lots of ways you can --
`what does identifying game play in the contact list mean, so we took a
`narrow approach and said, a line in -- a line that actually specifically
`identifies the current status of the game, even the last move, could definitely
`satisfy that limitation.
`Now, I would note, Your Honor, in the 250 Patent specifications, the
`embodiment there only shows, like, a checkers icon next to a contact.
`JUDGE QUINN: Right.
`MR. WEINSTEIN: It doesn't even have the same level of detail we
`have, which is similar to the icon in Galli, but again, we took a more
`conservative approach.
`JUDGE QUINN: Right. That's why I'm asking. I mean, the
`more information you're trying to get from one reference to the other, the
`more you have to explain that, and it seemed like the icon would do it, so I
`was just wondering why the added layer of complexity of trying to import
`status information to a contact list, which is odd. You don't usually see that
`on a contact list.
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Yes, well, the other reason, Your Honor, is
`because there is -- the icon in the -- (Telephonic interference.) -- can have
`two meanings. The icon in the contact list, it means that the application has
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`been registered with that particular contact. And the one limitation of Galli
`is this little icon tells you that there is an application associated with it. It
`doesn't necessarily tell you am I in a game or not, it just kind of tells you --
`you know, it pretty much just tells you there's a game associated with this
`person.
`It may mean that it's indicative of game play. There are situations, I
`guess you could have the icon associated with the conversation, but not have
`the game play, I think that would be unlikely, but because we didn't know
`how the Patent Owner was going to apply this claim language, if they were
`going to say, that limitation requires detailed information about it, that's kind
`of why I think Miyaji covers it, and -- (Telephonic interference.) -- that
`limitation.
`JUDGE BAER: Mr. Weinstein, I understood this to apply more to
`the displaying aspect, displaying at least one instant message in an instant
`messaging conversation user interface associated with a particular contact,
`indicative of game progress.
`I thought that, that was why you needed the yet statement there, it
`had to be a message indicative of game progress, not for the identifying
`game play.
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Well, I think what your question is, there's
`actually two user interfaces that are in play in the claim. The first
`limitation talks about the contact list. And that's where you have to have
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`game play in the contact list. Later down the claim, there's a different
`interface called the instant messaging conversation user interface, and that's
`the actual interface where you exchange messages back and forth with
`whatever contact you selected.
`So for that limitation, the Miyaji information, none of that is
`relevant. That just says you're just exchanging game messages. That's a
`different interface from the one in which the contact list is presented. And
`so the Miyaji disclosures really aren't relevant after that first limitation in the
`contact list. They're not relevant for what you have later on, because we
`have different disclosures that deal with that, such as the transmission of the
`game packets in the actual conversation itself.
`JUDGE BAER: I see. That's helpful. Thank you.
`JUDGE MOORE: I'm sorry, would you say that the icon itself
`identifies game play in the contact lists?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor. And in the conversation
`user interface, in other words, when you're actually in the conversation itself,
`and you have an instant messaging window open with a particular contact,
`under the combination, just like the example with video, what would happen
`is, you would actually see the game packet would show up within that
`interface, and it could be clickable, just like any other attachment, and you
`would go to the game in response to that particular functionality.
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`JUDGE MOORE: So would the icon show up even if there was not
`an ongoing game?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: Within the IM conversation user interface, it
`would not, because the icon is indicating the receipt of transmission of a
`game packet.
`JUDGE MOORE: So in the contact list, if there was no game
`going on, would the icon still appear next to a, you know, person who you
`had the ability to play a game with?
`MR. WEINSTEIN: It might, Your Honor. I think the short
`answer to your question, Your Honor, is, it might, because, you know, you
`can read Galli as saying that as long as the application is registered with that
`conversation, that icon might appear, so that's definitely a possibility in
`Galli, that it could show up.
`Again, I think if you have the application registered with it, with the
`conversation, you most likely have a game going on, but I don't think that
`icon necessarily requires it to show up only when the application is actually
`running. I don't think that's a requirement of Galli's icon display in t
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