Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 1 of 141
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`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 1 of 141
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`·1· · · · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·DATASPEED INC.,
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·SUCXESS LLC,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
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`10
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`11
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00147
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Patent 10,027,505
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · -and-
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00116
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent 9,871,671
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20· · DEPONENT:· · ROBERT LEALE
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`21· · DATE:· · · · Wednesday, August 12, 2020
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`22· · TIME:· · · · 9:41 a.m. EST
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`23· · LOCATION:· · VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`24· · REPORTER:· · Elizabeth G. LaBarge, CSR-4467
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`25· · JOB NO:· · · 12193
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`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
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`·1· · APPEARANCES:
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`·2· · · · ·DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON & GOWDEY
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`·3· · · · ·By:· Wayne M. Helge, Esq.
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`·4· · · · · · · James T. Wilson, Esq.
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`·5· · · · · · · Peter W. Gowdey, Esq.
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`·6· · · · ·8300 Greensboro Drive, Suite 500
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`·7· · · · ·McLean, Virginia· 22102
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`·8· · · · ·whelge@dbjg.com
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`·9· · · · ·jwilson@dbjg.com
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`10· · · · ·pgowdey@dbjg.com
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`11· · · · · · · Appearing on behalf of the Petitioner.
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`12
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`13· · · · ·SMARTPAT PLC
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`14· · · · ·By:· Bernd Axel Nix, Esq.
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`15· · · · ·400 Renaissance Center, Suite 2600
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`16· · · · ·Detroit, Michigan· 48243
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`17· · · · ·axel.nix@smartpat.net
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`18· · · · · · · Appearing on behalf of the Patent Owner.
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`19
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`20· · · · ·MAXWELL GOSS, PLLC
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`21· · · · ·By:· Maxwell Goss, Esq.
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`22· · · · ·370 E. Maple Road, Third Floor
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`23· · · · ·Birmingham, Michigan· 48009
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`24· · · · ·max@maxwellgoss.com
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`25· · · · · · · Appearing on behalf of the Patent Owner.
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`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·I· N· D· E X
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`·2
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`·3· · W I T N E S S
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`·4
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`·5· · · · ·ROBERT LEALE· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·6
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`·7· · Examination by Mr. Nix· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 8
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`·8· · Examination by Mr. Helge· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 113
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`·9
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`10
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · E· X· H· I· B· I· T S
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`12
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`13· · NUMBER· · · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`14· · Exhibit 1001· ·'671 patent . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· ·19
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`15· · Exhibit 1003· ·Leale '671 Declaration· . . . . . . . .· ·10
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`16· · Exhibit 1006· ·Sensors publication containing
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`17· · · · · · · · · ·Negley article· . . . . . . . . . . . .· ·24
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`18· · Exhibit 1015· ·Taube article - Comparison of CAN
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`19· · · · · · · · · ·Gateway Modules for Automotive and
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`20· · · · · · · · · ·Industrial Control Applications . . . .· ·88
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`21· · Exhibit 1018· ·Allen reference . . . . . . . . . . . .· ·93
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`22· · Exhibit 1103· ·Leale '505 Declaration· . . . . . . . .· ·11
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`23· · Exhibit 2026· ·Munoz annotated Figure 1· . . . . . . .· ·45
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`24· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · *· · ·*· · ·*
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`25
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`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Wednesday, August 12, 2020
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Via Zoom videoconference
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·9:41 a.m. EST
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·*· · ·*· · ·*
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`·5· · · · ·(All participants appearing via Zoom videoconference.)
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`·6· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Good morning, everyone.· My name is
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`·7· · · · ·Maxwell Goss.· As you know, I represent the patent
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`·8· · · · ·owner, Sucxess LLC.· I'm here with Axel Nix, who also
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`·9· · · · ·represents the patent owner.· I wanted to make a couple
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`10· · · · ·of preliminary -- brief preliminary comments and then
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`11· · · · ·I'll hand the floor over to Mr. Nix, who will be taking
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`12· · · · ·the lead and conducting today's examination.
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`13· · · · · · · We're conducting this deposition via Zoom.· I'm
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`14· · · · ·looking at my screen, it looks like there's several of
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`15· · · · ·you in the same room.· Is that -- is it Mr. Leale, the
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`16· · · · ·expert witness, he's to the left on my screen, sitting
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`17· · · · ·on the one side across from the other three of you?
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`18· · · · ·Raising your hand, that's you with the beard?
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`19· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's correct.
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`20· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Okay.· You're a speck on my screen.· You
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`21· · · · ·guys insisted on a remote deposition; I'm surprised to
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`22· · · · ·see you all sitting in the room together without giving
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`23· · · · ·us the opportunity to sit in the room with you.
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`24· · · · · · · Mr. Leale, I can hardly see you.· Is there a way
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`25· · · · ·that you can situate yourself a little closer to the
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`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
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`·1· · · · ·camera?
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`·2· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm
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`·3· · · · ·still -- this is the edge of the table, so I'm at the
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`·4· · · · ·edge of this conference table.· Does that help?
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`·5· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· No.· So this is just, from the viewer's
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`·6· · · · ·perspective, a little better than a telephonic
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`·7· · · · ·deposition because we're just looking at a conference
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`·8· · · · ·room full of people, we're not looking at you eye to eye
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`·9· · · · ·like you can see us, so I just want to make a record of
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`10· · · · ·that, that that's how you chose to situate in this room.
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`11· · · · · · · Are you in front of a -- as you know, we're going
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`12· · · · ·to be sharing exhibits.· Mr. Nix will be screen-sharing
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`13· · · · ·exhibits to draw your attention to certain portions of
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`14· · · · ·them.· I will also be sending links to the exhibits.
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`15· · · · ·Are you -- I can't see -- are you in front of a computer
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`16· · · · ·such that you're able to read along?
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`17· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm in front of a binder with my
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`18· · · · ·exhibits and my report in it.
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`19· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· And just to put this on the record, as
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`20· · · · ·well, we had confirmed with you by email before this and
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`21· · · · ·confirmed that he could have paper copies, clean paper
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`22· · · · ·copies of exhibits that are already in the record, which
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`23· · · · ·is what have been printed out, so he can have copies of
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`24· · · · ·these.· If you share documents, we can see the screen --
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`25· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Okay.
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`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
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`·1· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· -- we can see the screen.· It may be
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`·2· · · · ·easier, once we figure out where it is you're pointing
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`·3· · · · ·to in the exhibit, and he can then look at it on the
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`·4· · · · ·paper.
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`·5· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Sure.· And as I said in my email to you,
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`·6· · · · ·I have no objection and in fact it's helpful that he has
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`·7· · · · ·paper documents in front of him.· Just to make sure that
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`·8· · · · ·we have a clean record and are looking at the same
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`·9· · · · ·thing, I'll also be sharing them via Dropbox, but
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`10· · · · ·fortunately, because it's -- everything -- we do have a
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`11· · · · ·common exhibit numbering system as reflected on the
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`12· · · · ·documents, so hopefully everything will be nice and
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`13· · · · ·clear.
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`14· · · · · · · Like I said, I'm here to just kind of try to smooth
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`15· · · · ·things along.· Occasionally I might make comments in
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`16· · · · ·that regard, but otherwise, I don't intend to be
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`17· · · · ·interjecting.· Mr. Nix will be conducting the
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`18· · · · ·examination and I would ask that -- and I don't expect
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`19· · · · ·this, but I see there's three attorneys in the room
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`20· · · · ·across from Mr. Leale, I would expect that we're not
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`21· · · · ·going to have three different attorneys objecting all at
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`22· · · · ·once.· Will it be Mr. Helge -- I hope I'm saying your
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`23· · · · ·name correctly -- taking the lead in terms of making
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`24· · · · ·objections and then conducting any direct examination?
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`25· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Yes.· I think, as you're suggesting,
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`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
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`·1· · · · ·there's only going to be one person on your side asking
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`·2· · · · ·questions and there will only be one person on our side
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`·3· · · · ·making objections.
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`·4· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Thank you, thank you.· And then you guys
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`·5· · · · ·said off the record earlier that you wanted to correct
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`·6· · · · ·one aspect of Mr. Leale's deposition.· Why don't you go
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`·7· · · · ·ahead and do that on the record and then we'll jump in.
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`·8· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Yeah.· Just for clarification, it
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`·9· · · · ·wasn't in a deposition, but in his Declaration, so --
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`10· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Sorry, the Declaration, the Declaration,
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`11· · · · ·pardon me.
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`12· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· There are two patents at issue today,
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`13· · · · ·the '671 patent and the '505 patent, and there was a
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`14· · · · ·separate Declaration submitted in each of those cases.
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`15· · · · ·Paragraph 19 of the '671 Declaration describes the scope
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`16· · · · ·of the engagement that Mr. Leale undertook on behalf of
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`17· · · · ·Dataspeed, and in the '671 patent there is a
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`18· · · · ·typographical error in terms of that scope of
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`19· · · · ·engagement, and the sentence is more accurately set
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`20· · · · ·forth in Paragraph 19 of the '505 case Declaration,
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`21· · · · ·1103.· So just so you all know, he was not retained to
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`22· · · · ·provide analysis regarding what a person of ordinary
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`23· · · · ·skill in the art related to packaging for
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`24· · · · ·semiconductor-based light-emitting devices would have
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`25· · · · ·understood at the time of the '671 patent, it would have
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`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
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`·1· · · · ·been the technology identified in Paragraph 19 of
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`·2· · · · ·Exhibit 1103, so to the extent that there was any
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`·3· · · · ·question about that, we wanted to clarify that up front.
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`·4· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Okay, thank you.· Okay.· Well, I'll hand
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`·5· · · · ·the floor over to Mr. Nix.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · ·R O B E R T· ·L E A L E
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`·7· · · · ·having been first duly sworn, was examined and
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`·8· · · · ·testified as follows:
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · E X A M I N A T I O N
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`10· · BY MR. NIX:
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`11· · Q· · Good morning.· Just for the record, could you state your
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`12· · · · ·name?
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`13· · A· · My name is Robert Leale.
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`14· · Q· · Leale.· And do you understand that I will be asking you
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`15· · · · ·questions about the Declarations in these inter partes
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`16· · · · ·proceedings IPR2020-00116 and IPR2020-00147, do you
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`17· · · · ·understand that you must answer all questions
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`18· · · · ·truthfully?
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`19· · A· · I do.
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`20· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Allow me to interject a moment.· If I
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`21· · · · ·instruct him not to answer a question due to proper
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`22· · · · ·bases for not answering, he won't be answering, so
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`23· · · · ·just -- he's not required to answer everything.
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`24· · · · · · · MR. NIX:· Okay.
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`25· · BY MR. NIX:
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`·1· · Q· · Is there any reason you might not be able to provide
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`·2· · · · ·complete and truthful testimony today?
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`·3· · A· · None that I'm aware of.
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`·4· · Q· · If you do not understand a question, please let me know
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`·5· · · · ·and I will try to rephrase it; is that okay?
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`·6· · A· · That's perfect.
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`·7· · Q· · Now, Mr. Helge said he may instruct you not to answer
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`·8· · · · ·questions.· If he objects to something I said, you still
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`·9· · · · ·do have to answer the question; do you understand that?
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`10· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· That's not correct, actually.· If you
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`11· · · · ·ask a question that calls for a privilege objection, I
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`12· · · · ·will tell him not to answer.
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`13· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· Mr. Helge, I think there's no reason to
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`14· · · · ·split hairs.· As a general matter, Mr. Leale is required
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`15· · · · ·to answer questions.· Obviously, we're not going to get
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`16· · · · ·in the middle of it if you instruct him not to answer,
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`17· · · · ·if we disagree with your instruction, we can take
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`18· · · · ·appropriate measures, but the hairsplitting and how he
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`19· · · · ·phrased a rule that is laid out at the beginning of
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`20· · · · ·every deposition is just not helpful.
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`21· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Well, let me -- you're welcome to ask
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`22· · · · ·him whatever, but he understands if I tell him not to
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`23· · · · ·answer a question because you're asking something
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`24· · · · ·privileged, he's not going to answer it.· So I'm not
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`25· · · · ·sure about splitting hairs, but if you make a general
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`·1· · · · ·question and it's not correct on a legal basis, I'm
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`·2· · · · ·going to say so.
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`·3· · · · · · · MR. NIX:· And if you make an objection, but you do
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`·4· · · · ·not instruct him not to answer --
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`·5· · BY MR. NIX:
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`·6· · Q· · Mr. Leale, do you understand that those, you do have to
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`·7· · · · ·answer?
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`·8· · A· · I do.
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`·9· · Q· · Okay.· You can have a break any time you need one, just
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`10· · · · ·let me know, and please answer any questions that may be
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`11· · · · ·pending, so ask for the break after you have answered
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`12· · · · ·the question; is that okay?
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`13· · A· · That is, yes.
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`14· · · · · · · (Exhibit 1003 introduced.)
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`15· · BY MR. NIX:
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`16· · Q· · Now, I'm sharing your Declaration, Exhibit 1003.· Are
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`17· · · · ·you -- do you recognize that as your Declaration?
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`18· · A· · Just one second.
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`19· · · · · · · That appears to be it, yes.
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`20· · · · · · · MR. GOSS:· I have also shared a Dropbox link to the
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`21· · · · ·same Declaration.· Again, we all understand that you
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`22· · · · ·have paper exhibits printed in front of you, but for the
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`23· · · · ·sake of the record and having a common reference point,
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`24· · · · ·there is a link in the Zoom group chat to that same
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`25· · · · ·exhibit.
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`·1· · BY MR. NIX:
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`·2· · Q· · This Exhibit 1003, your Declaration, relates to
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`·3· · · · ·Patent 9,871,671, also referred to as the '671 patent;
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`·4· · · · ·is that correct?
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`·5· · A· · That's correct.
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`·6· · Q· · Did you write this Declaration?
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`·7· · A· · I did.
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`·8· · Q· · Other than what Mr. Helge said regarding Paragraph 19,
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`·9· · · · ·do you have to make any corrections to your Declaration?
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`10· · A· · I do not.
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`11· · · · · · · (Exhibit 1103 introduced.)
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`12· · BY MR. NIX:
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`13· · Q· · Exhibit 1103, do you recognize that as your Declaration?
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`14· · A· · I do.
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`15· · Q· · That Declaration relates to U.S. Patent 10,027,505,
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`16· · · · ·which we also call the '505 patent; is that correct?
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`17· · A· · That is correct.
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`18· · Q· · Did you write this Declaration?
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`19· · A· · I did.
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`20· · Q· · Did you have to make any corrections?
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`21· · A· · I did not.
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`22· · Q· · So everything you said in these Declarations, with the
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`23· · · · ·noted exception, is still true and correct?
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`24· · A· · That's correct.
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`25· · Q· · Have you been deposed before?
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`·1· · A· · I have.
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`·2· · Q· · What case was that?
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`·3· · A· · I don't have the recollection off the top of my head,
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`·4· · · · ·sorry.
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`·5· · Q· · You don't remember in what case you have been deposed?
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`·6· · A· · I've been deposed four times.
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`·7· · Q· · Do you remember any of the four times you've been
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`·8· · · · ·deposed?
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`·9· · A· · I recall the parties involved, if that would help.
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`10· · Q· · So what were the parties?
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`11· · A· · One of them was a company called Amp versus -- I'm
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`12· · · · ·trying to recall the other party -- Amp America
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`13· · · · ·versus -- I don't recall the other -- the other party.
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`14· · · · ·Off the top of my head, I don't recall their exact
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`15· · · · ·names, I'd have to look them up.
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`16· · Q· · Was that a patent case?
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`17· · A· · Say that again?
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`18· · Q· · Was that a patent-related case?
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`19· · A· · It was, yes.
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`20· · Q· · And for which side did you testify?
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`21· · A· · In one side, the defendant; in the other side, the
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`22· · · · ·person -- the company actually doing the -- I'm sorry,
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`23· · · · ·the non-defendant, I don't recall their -- the
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`24· · · · ·petitioner.
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`25· · Q· · So were those inter partes review proceedings?
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`·1· · A· · They were not.
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`·2· · Q· · Were they patent litigation?
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`·3· · A· · That's correct.
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`·4· · Q· · Okay.· And you testified as an expert witness in those
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`·5· · · · ·cases?
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`·6· · A· · That's correct.
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`·7· · Q· · What were the cases about?
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`·8· · A· · They were regarding programmable electronic modules for
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`·9· · · · ·automotive aftermarket systems.
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`10· · Q· · Okay.· And you're here as an expert today in vehicle
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`11· · · · ·networks; is that correct?
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`12· · A· · That's correct.
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`13· · Q· · How did you become an expert in vehicle networks?
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`14· · A· · I started when I was young.· In high school I started
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`15· · · · ·connecting vehicles and computers together in my -- one
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`16· · · · ·of my first vehicles.· From there, I became an expert in
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`17· · · · ·computer networks.· I worked with a school district
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`18· · · · ·local to me helping them set up computers on networks,
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`19· · · · ·computers, and then configuring the networks for years,
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`20· · · · ·approximately six years of that.· Later, after
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`21· · · · ·graduating from college, I went to IBM and worked in
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`22· · · · ·computer networks and server management.
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`23· · · · · · · After that, I worked at a small company in Chicago
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`24· · · · ·setting up computers in -- not in vehicles, but just
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`25· · · · ·computer networks.· Later, I -- I got a job at a company
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`·1· · · · ·in Detroit called Intrepid Control Systems that
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`·2· · · · ·specializes in CAN bus, LIN, FlexRay, JT50, UART, and
`
`·3· · · · ·other vehicle style networks.· From there I took my
`
`·4· · · · ·knowledge that I had been working on mainly as a hobby
`
`·5· · · · ·and became a professional trainer and engineer working
`
`·6· · · · ·with them, connecting and teaching vehicle systems to
`
`·7· · · · ·OEMs and suppliers.· And I've been doing that since I
`
`·8· · · · ·started working with them in early 2005.
`
`·9· · · · · · · Then after -- in 2009 I started my own company that
`
`10· · · · ·focused on vehicle networks where we help and assist
`
`11· · · · ·companies to integrate aftermarket electronic systems
`
`12· · · · ·into vehicles and I've been doing that since 2009. I
`
`13· · · · ·formed the -- I worked there and then now I continue to
`
`14· · · · ·do that job and have a small company that supports the
`
`15· · · · ·aftermarket and OEM companies in integrating
`
`16· · · · ·electronic -- electronic systems into vehicles.
`
`17· · Q· · Okay.· I think you just said you became an engineer.
`
`18· · · · ·How did you become an engineer?
`
`19· · A· · I worked -- well, again, I've been a computer engineer,
`
`20· · · · ·a network engineer since -- I started in -- at the end
`
`21· · · · ·of high school working and developing network systems at
`
`22· · · · ·the end of high school with -- with the district, the
`
`23· · · · ·school district that I had worked with, not the district
`
`24· · · · ·that I was in, but the district that I worked with, and
`
`25· · · · ·then I worked with -- after I worked with the Cisco
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 15 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·systems, I engineered their networks on the school -- in
`
`·2· · · · ·the school district, I also worked with IBM and
`
`·3· · · · ·engineered their networks, as well.· So I became an
`
`·4· · · · ·engineer well before that, but I worked in automotive
`
`·5· · · · ·and became an engineer there with on-the-job experience.
`
`·6· · Q· · Do you have formal training as an engineer?
`
`·7· · A· · I guess I don't understand what you mean by "formal."
`
`·8· · Q· · Do you hold any university or college degree in
`
`·9· · · · ·engineering?
`
`10· · A· · I do not.
`
`11· · Q· · Why didn't you study engineering?
`
`12· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Objection, form.
`
`13· · A· · So just back in high school, I looked at working on
`
`14· · · · ·getting my degree in engineering, and I realized at that
`
`15· · · · ·point, after looking at the curriculum, that I had
`
`16· · · · ·already completed a lot of the prerequisites required to
`
`17· · · · ·get into that field, and I felt at the time that I
`
`18· · · · ·wouldn't have gained anything extra from a college
`
`19· · · · ·education in something that I had been already doing for
`
`20· · · · ·a number of years.
`
`21· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`22· · Q· · Okay.· Have you worked on vehicles with controller area
`
`23· · · · ·networks?
`
`24· · A· · I have.
`
`25· · Q· · Were any of those vehicles convertibles?
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 16 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · A· · Yes, they were.
`
`·2· · Q· · Which convertibles did you work on?
`
`·3· · A· · I worked with the Pontiac G6.· The Saab 9-3.· I think
`
`·4· · · · ·that's it.
`
`·5· · Q· · And are you familiar with the operation of the
`
`·6· · · · ·convertible roof in those vehicles?
`
`·7· · A· · Yes.
`
`·8· · Q· · Did you review the electrical wiring of the convertible
`
`·9· · · · ·roof in those vehicles?
`
`10· · A· · Yes.
`
`11· · Q· · Did you try to hack the roof of any of those vehicles?
`
`12· · A· · What do you mean by "hack"?· I'm sorry.
`
`13· · Q· · If I understand correctly, you are the president of a
`
`14· · · · ·company called CanBusHack?
`
`15· · A· · That's correct.
`
`16· · Q· · What do you do when you hack -- do you hack vehicles?
`
`17· · A· · I do, yes.
`
`18· · Q· · And when you hacked vehicles, did you hack a convertible
`
`19· · · · ·vehicle?
`
`20· · A· · I did not.
`
`21· · Q· · Okay.· In your Declaration in Paragraph 59, you refer to
`
`22· · · · ·a contiguous network.· What does that mean?
`
`23· · A· · A contiguous network in Paragraph 59 is a network,
`
`24· · · · ·typically a single wire or two wires, connecting two or
`
`25· · · · ·more nodes.
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 17 of 141
`
`
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`·1· · Q· · What does the term "contiguous" in that mean?
`
`·2· · A· · Continuing, without break.
`
`·3· · Q· · Wouldn't that be continuous?· You called it contiguous.
`
`·4· · A· · Correct.· Contiguous, contiguous without break.
`
`·5· · Q· · Contiguous means without break?
`
`·6· · A· · It means -- contiguous means connected -- the two -- in
`
`·7· · · · ·this situation, it's referring to two nodes connected
`
`·8· · · · ·together using one or two wires, so a single channel
`
`·9· · · · ·without any break in those -- in the channel.
`
`10· · Q· · What would a --
`
`11· · A· · (Inaudible).
`
`12· · Q· · What would a break be?
`
`13· · A· · A break would be an interruption with -- between the
`
`14· · · · ·signaling of those two nodes, so the voltages between
`
`15· · · · ·the two nodes; if voltage was put on one side of the
`
`16· · · · ·network, it wouldn't arrive on the other end of the
`
`17· · · · ·network.
`
`18· · Q· · Okay.· Have you ever seen someone refer to CAN as a
`
`19· · · · ·contiguous network?
`
`20· · A· · I'm sure I have before, yes.
`
`21· · Q· · Do you recall where?
`
`22· · A· · Probably in my training.
`
`23· · Q· · Do any of the references you list in Appendix A of the
`
`24· · · · ·Declaration refer to a contiguous network?
`
`25· · A· · I could check, if you'd like.
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 18 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · Q· · So off the top of your head, you don't remember any one
`
`·2· · · · ·of them referring to a contiguous network?
`
`·3· · A· · Off the top of my head.· I haven't memorized every word
`
`·4· · · · ·inside of these references.
`
`·5· · Q· · Would it surprise you if we found out that none of them
`
`·6· · · · ·used the word "contiguous"?
`
`·7· · A· · I -- it wouldn't surprise me if it had the word or not.
`
`·8· · Q· · Okay.· But really, in essence, you're saying the CAN bus
`
`·9· · · · ·is continuous in that every module on that one bus sees
`
`10· · · · ·the same voltage potential, if I understand you
`
`11· · · · ·correctly?
`
`12· · A· · The -- if one node sends a CAN frame, the other nodes
`
`13· · · · ·simultaneously receive it.
`
`14· · Q· · And that is because they are electrically hard-wired
`
`15· · · · ·together, correct?
`
`16· · A· · That's because there is a single wire that connects all
`
`17· · · · ·of them together without any breaks, contiguous.
`
`18· · Q· · And that wire could go through one of the modules,
`
`19· · · · ·correct?
`
`20· · A· · That wire could -- if -- that wire needs to connect all
`
`21· · · · ·of them together so that electrically they are seeing
`
`22· · · · ·the same voltage variations and potentials at the same
`
`23· · · · ·time, however that happens, whether it's on one wire
`
`24· · · · ·or -- or two wires, if it's the case of a two-wire CAN
`
`25· · · · ·bus.
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 19 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · Q· · Okay.· So they do see the same voltage?
`
`·2· · A· · They would monitor the voltages and see them both at the
`
`·3· · · · ·same time that -- if the voltage changed on one end, it
`
`·4· · · · ·would change across all the nodes simultaneously.
`
`·5· · · · · · · (Exhibit 1001 introduced.)
`
`·6· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`·7· · Q· · Let me share Exhibit 1001.· That is the '671 patent,
`
`·8· · · · ·correct?
`
`·9· · A· · Just one second.· So I have -- okay.· Yeah.
`
`10· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· That's 1101.· Yeah.
`
`11· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`12· · Q· · Can you take a look at Figure 6 of the '671 patent?
`
`13· · A· · Yes.
`
`14· · Q· · As it is illustrated, there is a BUS1 input that is
`
`15· · · · ·connected to a BUS2 input with a direct connection.
`
`16· · A· · Understood.· That's correct.
`
`17· · Q· · And are BUS1 and BUS2 in this case part of one CAN bus?
`
`18· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Objection.
`
`19· · A· · These two buses would -- would both likely -- if this
`
`20· · · · ·is -- if this wire is direct and there's no break in it,
`
`21· · · · ·I would call this a contiguous network, they are -- BUS1
`
`22· · · · ·and BUS2, both of the voltages would be -- whatever
`
`23· · · · ·voltage comes on BUS1 would also come on that second
`
`24· · · · ·wire labeled as BUS2.
`
`25· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 20 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · Q· · So you do not see any break as it is illustrated in
`
`·2· · · · ·Figure 6 between BUS1 and BUS2?
`
`·3· · A· · If those -- if that particular wire is shorted, it's
`
`·4· · · · ·correctly placed, it likely would have the same voltage
`
`·5· · · · ·potential on both BUS1 and BUS2.
`
`·6· · Q· · Do you see any break that would indicate that it is not
`
`·7· · · · ·the same voltage?
`
`·8· · A· · I see a potential there for a break.· I'm not sure if
`
`·9· · · · ·that -- if the switch 606 is open or closed; it appears
`
`10· · · · ·to be closed, and in that situation, I would assume that
`
`11· · · · ·there would be voltage on both, the same voltage on
`
`12· · · · ·both.
`
`13· · Q· · And when adding the second bus, that one must not have
`
`14· · · · ·the same voltage; is that correct?
`
`15· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Object to form.
`
`16· · A· · Just what do you mean by adding a second bus?· Sorry.
`
`17· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`18· · Q· · The '671 patent refers to adding a second data bus, does
`
`19· · · · ·it?
`
`20· · A· · The '671 patent does refer to that, yes.
`
`21· · Q· · And when adding a second data bus, does that have to be
`
`22· · · · ·isolated from a first data bus to be a second data bus?
`
`23· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Object to form.
`
`24· · A· · A second data bus would -- in that situation, a second
`
`25· · · · ·data bus may -- I mean, I'm just looking.· Can you
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 21 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·refer -- can you point me to the -- is that Claim 1,
`
`·2· · · · ·correct, that you're speaking of?
`
`·3· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`·4· · Q· · Yes.
`
`·5· · A· · I'm trying to figure out what you mean by a second data
`
`·6· · · · ·bus.
`
`·7· · Q· · I'm highlighting in the '671 patent, Claim 1, the
`
`·8· · · · ·limitation "adding a second data bus to the vehicle."
`
`·9· · A· · And can you repeat the question, please?
`
`10· · Q· · The question was, is that second data bus electrically
`
`11· · · · ·isolated from the first data bus?
`
`12· · A· · In Claim 1, the second data bus would not have the same
`
`13· · · · ·electrical potentials simultaneously at -- as the first
`
`14· · · · ·data bus.
`
`15· · Q· · If they do not have the same potential, does that mean
`
`16· · · · ·they are isolated from one another?
`
`17· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Object to form.
`
`18· · A· · The second data bus would -- would not be connected to
`
`19· · · · ·the first one; thus, not sharing any of the same
`
`20· · · · ·properties as the first one, as the -- the first data
`
`21· · · · ·bus would not share the same electrical properties, so
`
`22· · · · ·if a message was sent on the first data bus, you would
`
`23· · · · ·not see that same message at the same time on --
`
`24· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`25· · Q· · Are they isolated from one another?
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 22 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Object to form.
`
`·2· · A· · I mean, define "isolated" in that context.· They're not
`
`·3· · · · ·connected, they're not contiguous, what do you mean?
`
`·4· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`·5· · Q· · In your Declaration, Paragraph 104, you say that
`
`·6· · · · ·something can be achieved by adding new conductors that
`
`·7· · · · ·are electrically isolated from the existing data bus; is
`
`·8· · · · ·that correct?· And I'm referring to Exhibit 1003.
`
`·9· · A· · Understood.· That is correct.· Electrically isolated, I
`
`10· · · · ·understand now.· When you said "isolated," you meant
`
`11· · · · ·electrically isolated, understood.
`
`12· · Q· · Okay.· So are they electrically isolated from one
`
`13· · · · ·another?
`
`14· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Object to form.
`
`15· · A· · Their electrical potential is not the same at -- at the
`
`16· · · · ·same time, that's what I'm trying to say.
`
`17· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`18· · Q· · Going back to Claim 1, the second data bus, is it
`
`19· · · · ·isolated from the first data -- electrically isolated
`
`20· · · · ·from the first data bus?
`
`21· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Object to form.
`
`22· · A· · The two networks do not have the same electrical
`
`23· · · · ·potential, they are electrically different from each
`
`24· · · · ·other, so if voltage happens on one network, it doesn't
`
`25· · · · ·exist on the other at the same time.
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 23 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`·2· · Q· · Do you --
`
`·3· · A· · They are -- they are different wires, they don't connect
`
`·4· · · · ·together, they're not contiguous, they're different.
`
`·5· · Q· · Do you know what "electrically isolated" means?
`
`·6· · A· · I do.· Electrically, the electronics, the electrical
`
`·7· · · · ·potential is different, it's just what I'm trying to say
`
`·8· · · · ·several times, the same thing over and over, the --
`
`·9· · Q· · I asked a yes or no question and you refused to answer
`
`10· · · · ·yes or no.
`
`11· · · · · · · Is the second data bus electrically isolated from
`
`12· · · · ·the first data bus?
`
`13· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· I'm going to object to form.· He's been
`
`14· · · · ·asked this question and he's answered it multiple times.
`
`15· · · · ·Just because you want a yes or no answer doesn't mean
`
`16· · · · ·that's the answer he's going to give.
`
`17· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`18· · Q· · You still have to answer the question.
`
`19· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· You can answer.
`
`20· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
`
`21· · A· · So the question is are they electrically isolated; is
`
`22· · · · ·that correct?
`
`23· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`24· · Q· · That is the question.
`
`25· · A· · And the answer is electrically, they are not connected,
`
`Sucxess LLC Exhibit 2024
`Dataspeed Inc. v. Sucxess LLC IPR 2020-00116
`Page 24 of 141
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·they are isolated in that they're in a different
`
`·2· · · · ·physical space, they don't have the same potential,
`
`·3· · · · ·electrical potential, going across each other, so if a
`
`·4· · · · ·message occurs on one, it doesn't occur on the other.
`
`·5· · Q· · So yes, they are isolated from one another?
`
`·6· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Object to form.
`
`·7· · A· · Was that a question?· I'm sorry.· It sounded like a
`
`·8· · · · ·statement.
`
`·9· · BY MR. NIX:
`
`10· · Q· · Yes, I'm trying to understand if you just said that yes,
`
`11· · · · ·they are isolated?
`
`12· · · · · · · MR. HELGE:· Same objection.
`
`13· · A· · I guess to clarify, again, the two networks are
`
`14· · · · ·electrically separate.
`
`15· ·
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