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`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _________________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _________________________
`
` DATASPEED INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` SUCXESS LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _________________________
`
` Case IPR2020-00116
` U.S. Patent No. 9,871,671
` _________________________
`
` Case IPR2020-00147
` U.S. Patent No. 10,027,505
`
` Zoom Deposition of MAHDI SHAHBAKHTI, Ph.D.
`
` (Reported Remotely via Web Videoconference)
`
` Edmonton, Alberta (Deponent's location)
`
` Thursday, October 8, 2020
`
`
`
`
`
` Reported by:
`
` Rebecca L. Romano, RPR, CSR, CCR
`
` Job No.: 28541
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 1 of 171
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _________________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _________________________
`
` DATASPEED INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` SUCXESS LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _________________________
`
` Case IPR2020-00116
` U.S. Patent No. 9,871,671
` _________________________
`
` Case IPR2020-00147
` U.S. Patent No. 10,027,505
`
` Zoom Deposition of MAHDI SHAHBAKHTI, Ph.D.
`
` (Reported Remotely via Web Videoconference)
`
` Edmonton, Alberta (Deponent's location)
`
` Thursday, October 8, 2020
`
`
`
`
`
` Reported by:
`
` Rebecca L. Romano, RPR, CSR, CCR
`
` Job No.: 28541
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 1 of 171
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _________________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _________________________
`
` DATASPEED INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` SUCXESS LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _________________________
`
` Case IPR2020-00116
` U.S. Patent No. 9,871,671
` _________________________
`
` Case IPR2020-00147
` U.S. Patent No. 10,027,505
`
` ZOOM DEPOSITION OF MAHDI SHAHBAKHTI,
`
` Ph.D., taken on behalf of the Petitioner, with the
`
` deponent located in Edmonton, Alberta, commencing
`
` at 8:04 a.m., Thursday, October 8, 2020, remotely
`
` reported via web videoconference before
`
` REBECCA L. ROMANO, a Registered Professional
`
` Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter, Certified
`
` Court Reporter.
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 2 of 171
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`
` APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
`
` (All parties appearing via web videoconference)
`
`Page 3
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` For the Petitioner:
`
` DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON &
`
` GOWDEY, LLP
`
` BY: WAYNE M. HELGE, ESQ.
`
` BY: PETER W. GOWDEY, ESQ.
`
` BY: JAMES T. WILSON, ESQ.
`
` 8300 Greensboro Drive
`
` Suite 500
`
` McLean, Virginia 22102
`
` (571) 765-7700
`
` whelge@dbjg.com
`
` pgowdey@dbjg.com
`
` jwilson@dbjg.com
`
` /////
`
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 3 of 171
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`
` APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
`
` (All parties appearing via web videoconference)
`
`Page 4
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` For the Patent Owner:
`
` MAXWELL GOSS PLLC
`
` BY: MAXWELL GOSS, ESQ.
`
` 370 E. Maple Road
`
` Third Floor
`
` Birmingham, Michigan 48009
`
` max@maxwellgoss.com
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Axel Nix, Smartpat PLC 400
`
` /////
`
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 4 of 171
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`
` I N D E X
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` DEPONENT EXAMINATION
`
` MAHDI SHAHBAKHTI, PH.D. PAGE
`
`Page 5
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` MR. HELGE 9, 145
`
` MR. NIX 143
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` E X H I B I T S
`
` NUMBER PAGE
`
` DESCRIPTION
`
` Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent No. 9,871,671 B2;
`
` Exhibit 1004 U.S. Patent No. 7,737,831 B2;
`
` Exhibit 1014 U.S. Patent No. 6,812,832 B2;
`
` Exhibit 1015 Taube Comparison of
`
` CAN Gateway Modules for
`
` Automotive and Industrial
`
` Control Applications;
`
` /////
`
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 5 of 171
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` E X H I B I T S (cont'd)
`
` NUMBER PAGE
`
`Page 6
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` DESCRIPTION
`
` Exhibit 1018 U.S. Patent Application
`
` Publication US
`
` 2007/0016342 A1;
`
` Exhibit 1101 U.S. Patent No. 10,027,505 B2;
`
` Exhibit 2028 Declaration of Mahdi
`
` Shahbakhti, Ph.D.
`
` Case IPR2020-00116
`
` U.S. Patent No. 9,871,671;
`
` Exhibit 2028 Declaration of Mahdi
`
` Shahbakhti, Ph.D.
`
` Case IPR2020-00147
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,027,505.
`
` /////
`
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
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`Page 7
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` Edmonton, Alberta; Thursday, October 8, 2020
`
` 8:04 a.m.
`
` ---o0o---
`
` (Exhibits previously marked.)
`
` THE COURT REPORTER: Good morning. My
`
` name is Rebecca Romano. I am a Certified Shorthand
`
` Reporter.
`
` Due to the current National Emergency of
`
` the COVID-19 pandemic, this deposition is being
`
` handled via remote videoconference.
`
` At this time, I will ask counsel to agree
`
` on the record that there is no objection to this
`
` deposition officer administering a binding oath to
`
` the deponent via remote videoconference, starting
`
` with the noticing attorney, please.
`
` MR. HELGE: No objection for Dataspeed.
`
` MR. GOSS: No objection for Patent Owner.
`
` THE COURT REPORTER: If you could raise
`
` your right hand for me, please.
`
` THE DEPONENT: (Complies.)
`
` THE COURT REPORTER: You do solemnly
`
` state, under penalty of perjury, that the testimony
`
` you are about to give in this deposition, shall be
`
` the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
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` truth?
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` THE DEPONENT: I do.
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`Page 8
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` /////
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 8 of 171
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`Page 9
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` MAHDI SHAHBAKHTI, Ph.D.,
`
` having been administered an oath, was examined and
`
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. HELGE:
`
` Q. Good morning, Doctor. Again, my name is
`
` Wayne Helge here appearing for Dataspeed. I am
`
` looking at a couple documents here, and I want to
`
` bring you up to speed on that.
`
` But first, I just want to be sure I'm
`
` pronouncing your name correctly.
`
` Is it Dr. Shahbakhti? Is that correct?
`
` A. Correct. Yeah. If it's difficult for
`
` you to pronounce, you can say Mahdi.
`
` Q. I'll call you Dr. Shahbakhti, if that's
`
` okay?
`
` A. Thank you. Sure.
`
` Q. Thank you.
`
` So, Doctor, as I mentioned, I've got a
`
` couple documents sitting in front of me here. One
`
` is labeled Exhibit 2028 from the IPR No. 2020-00116
`
` related to the '617 patent.
`
` Do you have a copy of that in front of
`
` you as well?
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` A. No. Basically, they told me you will be
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` putting the documents in the eDepoze, so I can get
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` it from there.
`
` MR. HELGE: Yeah. Well, we don't have
`
` that. We probably need to go off the record right
`
` now here.
`
` (Recess taken.)
`
` MR. HELGE: Back on the record.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) All right.
`
` Dr. Shahbakhti, I think that, hopefully, you're all
`
` situated now with a few exhibits.
`
` Do you have access on your computer now
`
` to electronic copies of the exhibit that you
`
` submitted in both IPR2020-00116 and
`
` IPR2020-00147?
`
` A. Yes, I do have access.
`
` Q. Okay. So Doctor, let's talk about the
`
` exhibit that you submitted -- or the declaration
`
` you submitted in 2020-00116 first.
`
` For the purposes of -- of the deposition
`
` today, I'm going to call this the '671 declaration.
`
` Does that make sense to you?
`
` A. Sure. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And then I'll call the declaration
`
` you submitted in 2020-00147 as the
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` '505 declaration.
`
` Okay?
`
` A. Sure. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And I think for the most -- well,
`
` let's talk about the '505 declaration first.
`
` Did you review your declaration in
`
` preparation for today's deposition?
`
` A. Yes, I did.
`
` Q. Okay. And did you review it carefully?
`
` A. I read the text and also the -- reviewed
`
` the figures. So I would consider, yes, I reviewed
`
` it carefully.
`
` Q. Okay. During that review of the
`
` '505 declaration, did you find any errors in the
`
` declaration?
`
` A. I did not.
`
` Q. In your review of the '505 declaration,
`
` did you find anything that you want to correct or
`
` supplement today?
`
` A. I do not have.
`
` Q. And you signed the '505 declaration on
`
` August 29th, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And so because you have no corrections or
`
` amendments or changes to the '505 declaration, you
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 11 of 171
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` stand by all of this testimony today, correct?
`
` A. Yes, I do.
`
` Q. Okay. Doctor, I'm going to ask you all
`
` those same questions for the '671 declaration.
`
` Did you review this carefully in
`
` preparation for today's deposition?
`
` A. Yes, I did.
`
` Q. Did you find any errors or omissions
`
` during your review of the '671 declaration in
`
` preparation for today's deposition?
`
` A. I did not.
`
` Q. Is there anything you want to clarify or
`
` correct today with regard to the '671 declaration?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. You signed the '671 declaration on
`
` August 28th of 2020, correct?
`
` A. Yes, that is correct.
`
` Q. Okay. And so the '671 declaration
`
` remains your testimony and contains all of your
`
` opinions with regard to the '671 patent; is that
`
` right?
`
` A. Yes, that is correct.
`
` Q. Okay. So Doctor, we're going to work off
`
` of the '671 declaration. I think, for the most
`
` part, there's a lot of overlap in these two
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 12 of 171
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` declarations. And just to make it easy, so you
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` don't have to go back and forth between the two, if
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` you can have that '671 declaration handy, it may
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` make it easier for your logistical manipulation of
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` files.
`
` A. Thank you. Sure. I will do it.
`
` Q. Okay. Doctor, do you understand what I
`
` mean when I use term "gateway" in the context of
`
` the '671 patent?
`
` A. Let me -- can you -- what do you mean by
`
` "gateway"?
`
` I mean, can you explain -- or you mean
`
` what I'm [sic] understand from the "gateway"?
`
` Q. Yeah, because I'm asking you what you
`
` understand of a "gateway" in the technological
`
` space of the '671 patent.
`
` A. Yes, I reflected my understanding in the
`
` declaration.
`
` Q. Okay. Can you tell me today what your
`
` understanding is of the "gateway"?
`
` A. Sure.
`
` So according to my declaration on
`
` page 69, paragraph 90, "Gateways are complex
`
` devices, which are used by car manufacturers to
`
` connect separate busses that have been designed to
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 13 of 171
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` be separate ab initio."
`
` Q. So, Doctor, you say "gateways are complex
`
` devices."
`
` What do you mean by that?
`
` A. By complexity, I mean that it will
`
` take -- it will -- it will not be trivial to do it.
`
` So it will need professional to get involved and
`
` consider so many different factors into a design.
`
` Q. Doctor, in your experience, have you ever
`
` designed a gateway?
`
` A. I have used devices that they use the
`
` gateway.
`
` Q. What sort of devices have you used that
`
` use a gateway?
`
` A. So in my research group at the
`
` university, the majority of the work we do are
`
` related to the automotive controls. And these
`
` devices, they -- the majority of them use CAN
`
` system. And then because we deal with the whole
`
` detail in some of the projects that I was involved
`
` that includes different CAN buses, and then gateway
`
` is typically used between the two different CAN
`
` buses.
`
` Q. So your testimony is that gateways are
`
` usually used between two different CAN buses; is
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 14 of 171
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` that right?
`
` MR. GOSS: Objection. Form.
`
` THE DEPONENT: The gateways that I have
`
` worked with in the experimental setup that we have
`
` had, those were between the two different CAN
`
` buses.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) Okay. And for a gateway
`
` that is set up between two different CAN buses,
`
` what sort of components did that gateway include?
`
` A. Can I refer to the -- one of the exhibit
`
` file that it was there because that one includes
`
` details related to the design of the gateway.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you know what reference that is
`
` you're talking about?
`
` A. Let me go to the list here so I can be
`
` accurate in mentioning the exhibit number.
`
` To make it simple, and also I notice you
`
` have already put Exhibit 1015 into the list. I can
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` go to that file and then discuss from there.
`
` Q. Okay. Please do.
`
` A. So if you look at the Exhibit 1015 in --
`
` you will notice that it's providing to the
`
` different structures that possible gateways.
`
` In the example you can see the figure 1,
`
` figure 2, figure 3, figure 4. And as you notice,
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`Petitioner's Exhibit 1020
`Page 15 of 171
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` there are different components that are involved in
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` design of the gateway. And there are different
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` inputs and outputs. So all those needs to be
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` carefully taken into consideration in a design.
`
` Q. Okay. Doctor, did you review
`
` Exhibit 1015 in preparation for today's deposition?
`
` A. I reviewed this one when I was preparing
`
` my declaration. But I did not read these documents
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` before the -- today's deposition.
`
` Q. Okay. So according to your understanding
`
` of Exhibit 1015, is this reference teaching a
`
` person of ordinary skill in the art that they
`
` should not use gateways?
`
` A. Going back to the -- what I mentioned
`
` from my declaration, so gateways are useful devices
`
` and it should be used whenever the needs is
`
` appropriate and the amount of efforts will make
`
` sense.
`
` That's why if you see the sentence that I
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` mentioned in -- from my declaration, I said
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` "Gateways are complex devices, which are used by
`
` car manufactures to connect separate busses that
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` have been designed to be separate ab initio."
`
` In it added -- I added sentence there
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` "Designing an aftermarket device as a gateway
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` rather than a simple pass-through makes Munoz
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` unnecessarily complex."
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` So as part of design, you will always try
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` to avoid complexity. But if it is necessary, then
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` you will go and then go after a design gateway.
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` Q. You would agree with me that Exhibit 1015
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` identifies advantages of different gateway
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` implementations, correct?
`
` A. I agree that reading from the title and
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` abstract of the Exhibit 1015, this document is
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` providing a comparison of different CAN gateway
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` modules for automotive and industrial control
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` applications.
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` And it does mention "Caused by the rising
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` numbers of sensors, actuators and electronic
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` control units over the last years, modern control
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` concepts demand devices supporting
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` cross-linking of these channels. This
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` interconnection is realized with a CAN gateway that
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` connects" -- as you see here is mentioned --
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` "several CAN buses between sub networks at
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` different speeds."
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` So depending on the needs, if the need is
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` necessary, of course, the gateway will provide
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` benefit and the useful. And then this document is
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` providing different architectures, and then what
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` are the advantage and disadvantage of each of those
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` architectures.
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` Q. Doctor, you can refer to 1015,
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` Exhibit 1015, if you would like, or, you know, your
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` declaration or whatever, but what functions can a
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` gateway perform, in your experience?
`
` A. Just reading the same sentence I
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` mentioned to you, that explains what -- one very
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` good function. You saw the last sentence I
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` mentioned. "This interconnection is realized with
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` a CAN gateway that connects several CAN buses" --
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` so that's one benefit -- "between sub networks."
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` So if I have different sub networks, that would be
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` benefit of having gateways and that allowing to
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` have CAN buses. And those CAN buses that they are
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` different speeds, or they would be at different
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` baud rates.
`
` Q. Can a CAN --
`
` A. These two would be just two examples of
`
` mention of the benefits.
`
` Q. Okay. Can a gateway connect to CAN buses
`
` that operate at the same speed?
`
` A. It will become -- going back to the point
`
` that I mentioned that what is the necessity to have
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` a gateway, if you got a system that they are at
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` different speeds then it provides a good reason to
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` have a gateway. But if they are the same speed,
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` then there would be less reason. But, of course, a
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` person can go and put a CAN -- a gateway between
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` the -- the CAN buses that they have the same speed.
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` But, again --
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. -- it needs to be justified and then not
`
` adding extra complexity.
`
` Q. Okay. So as I understand your testimony,
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` there are engineering factors that -- that govern
`
` what an engineer might do.
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` But you would agree that a POSITA, a
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` person of ordinary skill in the art, could connect
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` two CAN buses that operate at the same speed with a
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` gateway, correct?
`
` A. Hypothetically, if this is a very general
`
` question, I would expect the POSITA will use the
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` judgment if it is necessary or not.
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` If the question is that if the POSITA can
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` do it, yes, he can do it. But it should be based
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` on the necessity. The POSITA should be able to
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` design a gateway that goes from one CAN bus to the
`
` other one whether they are in same speed or
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` different. But, again, it needs to be based on the
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` necessity.
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` Q. Doctor, in a gateway that connects two
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` CAN buses, can that gateway manipulate the data
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` that it receives?
`
` A. I need you to define what you mean by
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` manipulation.
`
` Q. Okay. So I'll ask you this, Doctor.
`
` In a gateway that connects two CAN buses,
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` can that gateway remove data from a CAN bus message
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` that it receives from one of those CAN buses?
`
` A. What I'm doing, I'm just looking at the
`
` Exhibit 1015 and also the design to see if I can
`
` see that one as well there.
`
` Q. Okay. Well, Doctor, it may help you if
`
` you look at the second column on page 1 of
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` Exhibit 1015, second paragraph down.
`
` A. You said the second page, column 1 or 2?
`
` Q I'm sorry, Doctor, we had some noise
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` outside. Can you ask me your question again,
`
` please.
`
` A I just was trying to remember what you
`
` said.
`
` You said second page, column 2?
`
` Q First page, column 2, second paragraph
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` down.
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` A. Okay. Are you talking about the
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` paragraph that starts with "These functions"?
`
` Q. Correct.
`
` Doctor, let me take a step back. Let me
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` guide you through this a little bit. I'm on
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` page 1, second column, top paragraph of
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` Exhibit 1015. I'm going to read it to you.
`
` That paragraph reads: "In automotive and
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` industrial control applications, the term gateway
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` is preferred even though the data is transferred
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` between networks using the same protocol, because
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` these gateways perform more functions than the
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` forwarding of messages."
`
` Did I read that correctly?
`
` A. Yes, you did.
`
` Q. So you would agree that gateways perform
`
` more functions than just forwarding messages
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` between CAN buses, correct?
`
` A. According to the statement, yes, but I am
`
` trying to think of other functions.
`
` Q. Okay. Well, you don't have to think
`
` about them because Exhibit 1015 tells us what they
`
` are. So I'm going to ask you again.
`
` Do you agree with that last sentence that
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` I just read that "gateways perform more functions
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` than the forwarding of messages" in a CAN bus
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` application?
`
` MR. GOSS: Objection. Form.
`
` THE DEPONENT: I see that in the
`
` declaration -- sorry -- in the document we are
`
` referring, the second paragraph. It's mentioning
`
` one of those functions. "These function can/must
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` be message filtering (to prevent overload of a
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` low-speed network when transferring messages from
`
` the high-speed network)."
`
` So kind of -- it's referring to when you
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` have a lower-speed network and you also have a
`
` high-speed network, and you have different network
`
` with different speed. And because one of them
`
` cannot basically handle the highest speed of the
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` messages from the other CAN bus, so then here you
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` go and then you will be -- to avoid the overload,
`
` so you will be adjusting that -- the data that is
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` mentioned here.
`
` So that's an example of those functions
`
` that is mentioned in this document.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) Okay. Doctor, I'm going
`
` to look at Exhibit 1015, page 1, column 2, the
`
` second paragraph, the same paragraph you just read
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` from.
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` A. Correct.
`
` Q. If you go down about six lines, do you
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` see one example of a function that this reference
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` discloses is "message integration," which describes
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` "(combining parts of the data of several messages
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` into a new message)."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes, I can see it.
`
` Q. Do you agree that combining parts of data
`
` of several messages into a new message is the same
`
` thing as altering data?
`
` A. Let me read it carefully.
`
` Q. Please do.
`
` A. So my understanding from reading this and
`
` also trying to connect to just the sentence that is
`
` previously mentioned, you see here in the sentence
`
` it's mentioned -- I'm just going to read the first
`
` sentence and then go to the second sentence and
`
` provide my rational.
`
` "These functions can/must be message
`
` filtering (to prevent the overload of low-speed
`
` network when transferring messages from a
`
` high-speed network), message transfers with
`
` identifier translation, message integration
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` (combining parts of the data of several messages
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` into a new message), and the synchronisation of
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` time-triggered networks (when implemented) to
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` guarantee that information is updated."
`
` So a POSITA after reading this
`
` sentence -- these two sentences and put them next
`
` to each other, so we understand that we are talking
`
` about two CAN bus system, that they are at
`
` different speeds. And then what happens, one of
`
` them is at higher speed. The other one is at lower
`
` speed.
`
` So when you have high speed, the amount
`
` of the data you could get would be more
`
` substantial. And then what -- the one that go to
`
` the lower speed, he's suggesting the idea of the
`
` combining of those data that go to the CAN messages
`
` that go to the lower speed CAN bus.
`
` So for this example that you have two CAN
`
` buses with two different speeds in the -- this will
`
` be helpful because it will allow that -- the data
`
` to be send it to the other one.
`
` And another part might happen is that you
`
` might have even the one -- the identifier being 11
`
` bits, the other one might be 29 bits. So you also
`
` need to adjust that.
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` So data I will be looking at the word
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` "altering," let's say, it would be similar to if
`
` you look at the -- what I included in my
`
` declaration that I refer to tampering.
`
` So I'm just going to go to the part,
`
` paragraph 37. It says "Munoz broadly refers to
`
` 'removing or altering data' in Fig. 1. But Munoz
`
` does not explain how the data can be removed. A
`
` CAN bus does not provide any mechanism for
`
` 'removing' data."
`
` But then later on the lower POSITA will
`
` "expect that removing data from a CAN bus causes a
`
` convertible roof to open."
`
` Then it says "Elend and Adamson describe
`
` a possible tampering attack on a CAN bus in
`
` paragraph 2.2 of their paper. The tampering attack
`
` is useful since it gives the attacker the power to
`
` tamper with the messages that being sent on the
`
` bus."
`
` So this part become more important, to
`
` tamper with a message means altering the message.
`
` That means if you look at even the figure 2, then
`
` you got a message and you see that portion that is
`
` shown with the black and then you go and change it.
`
` And then I added in -- I said "In my
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` opinion, a POSITA would have understood Munoz's
`
` disclosure of 'altering data exchanged between
`
` integrated and closed systems' to be some sort of
`
` tampering attempt which adjusts a message that
`
` another node is currently sending on the bus as
`
` described by Elend and Adamson."
`
` Q So, Doctor, I want to come back to
`
` Exhibit 1015. You've directed me to paragraph 37
`
` and there's something I want to clarify here.
`
` In the second sentence and third sentence
`
` of paragraph 37 you say "But Munoz does not explain
`
` how data can be removed. A CAN bus does not
`
` provide any mechanism for 'removing' data."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. You then proceed to discuss your
`
` interpretation of altering data to be tampering,
`
` correct?
`
` MR. GOSS: Objection. Form.
`
` THE DEPONENT: What I did, I put myself
`
` in the positions of a POSITA. I said Munoz is
`
` using the word "altering." And then if you search
`
` the word "altering" in the whole document of Munoz,
`
` there is no description.
`
` Then I put myself in the shoes of the
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` POSITA and then I said what POSITA might think of.
`
` And that's how I notice the word "altering" or
`
` changing, it will be more relevant to the case
`
` that -- like figure 2 is explaining, that you have
`
` a portion of the data that is being changed, being
`
` modified, being altered.
`
` That's how I come with that description,
`
` putting myself in the position of POSITA, that in
`
` Munoz doesn't see any description. And then when
`
` it goes to the general documents that you included,
`
` like Bosch document, ISO, or the SAE documents,
`
` those -- they don't talk about these altering or
`
` removing.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) So Doctor, you said you
`
` put yourself into the position of a POSITA while
`
` interpreting Munoz, correct?
`
` MR. GOSS: Objection.
`
` THE DEPONENT: Yes, that's what I tried
`
` to do when I was forming my opinions in the
`
` declaration.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) Okay. So when you look
`
` at the second and third sentence of paragraph 37
`
` you say "Munoz does not explain how data can be
`
` removed. A CAN bus does not provide any mechanism
`
` for 'removing' data."
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` Are you telling me that a POSITA would
`
` not understand how data could be removed from a CAN
`
` bus network?
`
` A. What I was referring -- if you go to the
`
` documents, the Bosch documents that you provided,
`
` that it explains how CAN system works, in that one,
`
` it does not provide information how to go and then
`
` systematically remove the Adamson message.
`
` So that would be the -- the case of
`
` having only one CAN system. I got one CAN system
`
` and in that CAN system the -- the exhibit that you
`
` provided used in the petition, like Bosch, it does
`
` not explain how to remove.
`
` So if there's any place in those
`
` documents that you think it would be relevant, you
`
` can refer me to those documents.
`
` Q. Well, let's turn to paragraph 59 of your
`
` '671 declaration.
`
` A. I am there.
`
` Do you want me to read it?
`
` Q. Well, I will get to that. Let me ask you
`
` a question first, in paragraph 13 you talk about
`
` being an associate editor of a couple journals,
`
` correct?
`
` A. I'm currently associate editor of the
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` ASME Journal of Dynamic Systems, Measurements
`
` Control.
`
` Q. Okay. What duties does th
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