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`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`________________________________
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.,
`SAMSUNG RESEARCH AMERICA, INC.
`Petitioner
`v.
`DYNAMICS INC.,
`Patent Owner
`_________________________________
` Case No. IPR2020-00499 – U.S. Patent No. 8,827,153
` Case No. IPR2020-00502 – U.S. Patent No. 10,032,100
` Case No. IPR2020-00504 – U.S. Patent No. 10,223,631
` Case No. IPR2020-00505 – U.S. Patent No. 10,255,545
`____________________________________
`
` CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF STEPHEN GEOFFREY HALLIDAY
`Thursday, October 22, 2020; 9:38 a.m. EST
`Job No.: 647538
`Pgs. 232 - 364
`Reported by: Cindy L. Sebo, RMR, CRR, RPR, CSR, CCR,
`CLR, RSA, Remote Counsel Reporter, LiveDeposition
`Authorized Reporter
`MAGNA LEGAL SERVICES
`(866) 624-6221
`www.MagnaLS.com
`
`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2040
`Page 1
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`

`

`Page 235
`
` INDEX OF EXAMINATION
`
`STEPHEN GEOFFREY HALLIDAY
` EXAMINATION BY PAGE
` Mr. Morris 238
` Mr. Rabinowitz 351
`
` - - -
` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
` - - -
` (Exhibits Attached to the Original Transcript.)
` HALLIDAY
` DEPOSITION
` EXHIBIT NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
` 8 Declaration of Stephen G.
` Halliday In Support of Petition
` for Inter Partes Review of
` U.S. Patent Number 8,827,153 297
`
` 10 Declaration of Stephen G.
`
` Halliday In Support of Petition
`
` for Inter Partes Review of
`
` U.S. Patent Number 10,255,545 239
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`Page 233
`1
` Continued Deposition of STEPHEN
`2 GEOFFREY HALLIDAY taken by Patent Owner, held
`3
`remotely before Cindy L. Sebo, Registered Merit Court
`4
`Reporter, Certified Real-Time Reporter, Registered
`5
`Professional Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter,
`6
`Certified Court Reporter, Certified LiveNote
`7
`Reporter, Real-Time Systems Administrator, Remote
`8
`Counsel Reporter, LiveDeposition Authorized Reporter
`9
`and Notary Public, beginning at approximately 9:38
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`a.m. EST, when were present on behalf of the
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`Page 236
`
` - - -
` INDEX TO EXHIBITS (Continued)
` - - -
` HALLIDAY
` DEPOSITION
` EXHIBIT NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
` 12 U.S. Patent Number 8,827,153 298
`
` 14 U.S. Patent Number 10,255,545 239
`
` 19 U.S. Patent Number 6,206,293 299
`
` 24 U.S. Patent Number 7,690,580 298
`
` 25 U.S. Patent Number 4,868,376 299
`
` 29 U.S. Patent Number 6,769,607 240
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` A P P E A R A N C E S:
` (All via Zoom Video Communications.)
` Attorney for Petitioners:
` KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP
` ALAN RABINOWITZ, ESQUIRE
` JAMES E. MARINA, ESQUIRE
` 601 Lexington Avenue
` New York, New York 10022
` 212.446.4800
` alan.rabinowitz@kirkland.com
` james.marina@kirkland.com
`
` Attorney for Patent Owner:
` ECKERT SEAMANS CHERIN & MELLOTT, LLC
` ROBERT W. MORRIS, ESQUIRE
` 10 Bank Street, Suite 700
` White Plains, New York 10606
` 914.286.6440
` rwmorris@eckertseamans.com
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` TAERA FRANKLIN, Paralegal, Eckert Seamans
` Cherin & Mellott, LLC
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`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2040
`Page 2
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`Page 237
`
`Page 239
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` S T I P U L A T I O N S
`
` IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED
` by and between counsel no party to the litigation
` will object to the remote deposition on the grounds
` that the certified stenographer may not have the
` legal authority to swear in the witness.
`
` FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
` that in lieu of the oath administered in person,
` the witness declares the testimony in this matter
` under the penalty of perjury.
`
` FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
` that the certified stenographer is not physically
` present in the deposition room and will be
` reporting this deposition remotely.
`
` FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
` all parties and their counsel consent to this
` arrangement and waive any objections to this manner
` of reporting.
`
`Page 238
`
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
`
` Remote Deposition
` Thursday, October 22, 2020; 9:38 a.m. EST
`
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`7
` STEPHEN GEOFFREY HALLIDAY,
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` after having been previously duly sworn remotely by
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` the certified stenographer, was examined and
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` testified further remotely as follows:
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` EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER
`14
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` BY MR. MORRIS:
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` Q. Good morning, Mr. Halliday.
`17
` A. Good morning.
`18
` Q. This morning, we're going to pick up
`19
` with the '545 patent.
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` MR. MORRIS: So, TaeRa, if you
`21
` could upload Exhibit 10 --
`22
`
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Which is your declaration.
` MR. MORRIS: -- as well as
` Exhibit 14 which is the patent itself.
` - - -
` (Halliday Deposition Exhibit Number
` 10, Declaration of Stephen G.
` Halliday In Support of Petition
` for Inter Partes Review of U.S.
` Patent Number 10,255,545, marked
` for identification, as of this
` date.)
` - - -
` - - -
` (Halliday Deposition Exhibit Number
` 14, U.S. Patent Number 10,255,545,
` marked for identification, as of
` this date.)
` - - -
` MR. MORRIS: Does anybody need us
` to upload Moullette, Zellner and Doughty
` again, or do we all have that?
`
`Page 240
` THE WITNESS: No. I'm fine.
` MR. RABINOWITZ: No.
` MR. MORRIS: Okay.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. The other document that we should
` upload is Exhibit 29. We'll get to that as well.
` That's Pitroda '607 patent.
` - - -
` (Halliday Deposition Exhibit Number
` 29, U.S. Patent Number 6,769,607,
` marked for identification, as of
` this date.)
` - - -
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Just let me know when you have
` everything uploaded.
` MR. RABINOWITZ: I have all those
` items.
` THE WITNESS: I have everything.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Okay. So why don't we jump right in
` and go straight to the detailed invalidity
`
`
`
`3 (Pages 237 to 240)3 (Pages 237 to 240)
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`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2040
`Page 3
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`

`

`Page 241
` analysis that's set forth in your declaration,
` starting on Page 31?
` On Page 31 --
` A. Okay.
` Q. No problem.
` A. I'm ready.
` Q. Okay. So the first ground that you
` have set forth has to do with Doughty in view of
` Zellner.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Do you see 31 that's, I guess, X.A.1,
` the combination of Doughty and Zellner?
` Does it make a difference to you if
` it's Doughty in view of Zellner or Zellner in
` view of Doughty?
` A. No, it does not.
` Q. Okay. And with regard to making this
` combination, you set forth in 65 to enhance
` functionality and flexibility of Doughty's
` device.
` Is there anything in -- in either
`
`Page 242
` piece of prior art that discusses any issues
` with regard to functionality or flexibility of
` Doughty's device?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Are there any other reasons why you
` should combine these two things?
` A. I think, as we discussed previously,
` the issue here is that -- I have to remember
` around which way it is.
` Doughty -- Doughty describes a
` device that allows us to emulate a magnetic --
` emulate a magnetic field. Zellner gives us a
` lot more information on how we can improve it
` from a user perspective.
` Q. With regard to your first sentence,
` when you talk about enhancing the functionality
` and flexibility of Doughty's device, what are you
` talking about there?
` A. So Doughty talks about a display,
` which is a very simple device -- a simple
`
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`Page 243
` display. When we add Zellner to it, we can add
` all of the extra parts of being able to show a
` virtual card and make the whole device much more
` user-friendly.
` Q. And when you say that, which
` embodiment of Zellner are you talking about?
` A. I need to bring up Zellner.
` So when you -- hang on. Let me
` scroll it -- and -- it's gone blank.
` Give me a second.
` (Scrolling.)
` THE WITNESS: When we look at
` Zellner, Figure 12 shows a PDA or mobile
` phone with a display and a keyboard that
` allows us to give the -- the user a much
` better interface. So it's the embodiment
` that's incorporated into the PDA.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Do you contend in any way that
` Zellner invented the device that's shown in
` Figure 12?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
`
`Page 244
` THE WITNESS: I have no idea if
` Zellner had any -- any help in inventing
` that device -- that device.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. With regard to this patent itself --
` A. Zellner has used something
` that -- that is commercially available to
` illustrate an -- an embodiment.
` Q. Okay. And when you talk about
` improve -- enhancing -- quote, Enhancing the --
` to enhance the functionality and flexibility of
` Doughty's device, you're just relying on -- on
` whatever it is that's shown in Figure 12; is that
` correct?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: That is partially
` what we're relying on, yes.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. And so if you went and did that, for
` example, it would lose the ability that Doughty's
` device has -- the -- to be able to make EMV
` transactions.
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`4 (Pages 241 to 244)4 (Pages 241 to 244)
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`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2040
`Page 4
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`

`

`Page 245
` Because if you look at -- at Doughty
` Figure 4A, for example, there's an EMV chip;
` isn't that correct?
` A. I'm looking for Doughty. Hold on.
` (Whereupon, the witness reviews the
` material provided.)
` THE WITNESS: So can you ask your
` question for me again, please?
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Sure.
` If I modify -- I believe what you're
` suggesting is that I modify Doughty by including
` it within the product or a similar-type product
` that's shown in Figure 12 of Zellner; is that
` correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And if I do that, then -- then the
` modified combined product can't complete, for
` example, an EMV transaction; isn't that correct?
` A. By "an EMV transaction," you mean a
` chip card with contacts? Is that what you're
` referring to?
`
`Page 246
` Q. Right, the EMV chip that's shown in
` Figure 4A of -- of -- of Doughty, Number 324, I
` think.
` A. So as Zellner shows the particular
` PDA, it would not be possible to do it without
` changing that device to include the contact pad
` shown in Doughty's Figure 4A; you're correct.
` Q. But even if you -- and how would you
` have -- if you were going to include that contact
` pad, how would you do that on the PDA?
` A. Yeah, you're right.
` So it would be very difficult to do
` contact cards.
` Q. Okay. So what exactly -- just so
` that I have an understanding of -- of what your
` opinion is based on, what is the combination? Is
` there a specific circuit or a specific piece of
` what's shown in any of Doughty's figures -- that
` that's the embodiment that you're taking and
` basically saying would go inside whatever it is
` that's shown in Figure 12?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection: you're
`
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`Page 247
` mischaracterizing the witness' testimony.
` THE WITNESS: So we would use the
` magnetic field generator described in
` Doughty to enhance the Zellner device to
` give us the ability to emulate the
` magnetic stripe information.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. So is there anything in Zellner that
` shows that, for example, the -- the DME is inside
` the device of -- shown in Figure 12?
` A. So in Zellner -- Figure 6 of Zellner
` shows the schematic which shows all of the
` interfaces inside of a device -- that could be
` inside of a device, including RFID, biometric,
` the cellular device itself, bar code and the DME,
` so that that DME which would be inside the device
` that we're talking about in Figure 12.
` Q. Sure.
` All I'm asking for -- if you could
` point me to any text within Zellner that ever
` says that all the circuitry you just referred to
` in Figure 6 is included inside the device in
`Page 248
`
` Figure 12.
` (Whereupon, the witness reviews the
` material provided.)
` THE WITNESS: So I don't think
` Zellner specifically states that
` Figure 12 has all of that embodiment in
` it already.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Okay. But at least it's your opinion
` that the circuitry of Figure 6, or at least some
` of it, somehow would make it into Figure 12.
` And -- and then is it -- is it
` accurate to say that the combination you're
` suggesting would then be to -- if I go back to
` Figure 6, to take the DME out and replace it
` with the circuitry -- the emulation circuitry
` that's in Doughty --
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. -- is that correct?
` A. So it would be -- I believe it would
` be possible to include the circuitry -- the
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`5 (Pages 245 to 248)5 (Pages 245 to 248)
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`Page 249
` circuitry covered in Figure 6 into a device, such
` as Figure 12, enhanced with a magnetic emulator
` from Doughty. Whether that replaces the DME or
` enhances it would depend on how much the DME is
` capable of doing.
` Q. And which part of the emulator would
` that be from Doughty?
` A. The -- the -- the coil and the
` control circuit that is described in Doughty. I
` think it was Figure 5B.
` Q. Okay. And all of this, according to
` Paragraph 65, is being done to enhance the -- the
` functionality and flexibility of Doughty's
` device?
` A. Yes, that's correct.
` Q. And Doughty's device, up until now,
` was just a card that you would swipe; isn't that
` correct?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: That was -- that was
` one of the embodiments, yes.
`
`Page 250
`
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. All right. Let's turn to Page 34 and
` get into going through the claim language.
` So the first paragraph there, you
` say -- it has the preamble -- we're now in
` Paragraph -- or in Heading labeled 2, Claim --
` Number 2, Claim 1, Subparagraph a. And it has
` Claim 1, and then, in brackets, it says
` Preamble.
` In that instance, I believe it says
` you're relying on Doughty to be the device; is
` that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And in the end, the combination of
` the device -- you're really taking a device out
` of Figure 12 of Zellner, like a PDA, or something
` like that; isn't that correct?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: So I am taking a
` device that is following on with the rest
` of Claim 1 -- able to do those things in
` Claim 1. And Doughty discloses something
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`Page 251
`
` that can talk to a terminal, like a
` point-of-sale terminal.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Okay. But, ultimately, from the
` discussion that we just had, you -- I believe
` what you said the combination was was taking the
` circuitry of the magnetic emulation from Doughty
` and putting it in a device like what's shown in
` Figure 12 of Zellner; isn't that correct?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: I did say that.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Okay. The next paragraph -- or the
` next claim element is referred to b, Claim 1[a].
` And this one is, quote, Circuitry operable to
` communicate with a cellular network.
` And so in this instance, you say,
` Doughty, alone or in combination with Zellner,
` teaches circuitry operational -- or operable --
` sorry about that -- operable to communicate with
` a cellular network.
` And where does Doughty do that?
`Page 252
` A. Doughty describes, in Paragraph 48, I
` believe -- in Paragraph 48 of Doughty, it says
` that the substrate may be integrated into a
` personal communication device, such as a personal
` data assistant (PDA), a telecommunications
` device, a pager, a computer and an electronic
` mail transceiver.
` Q. Okay. But at least what's disclosed
` in Doughty -- it's not -- while it may be
` integrated into one of those things, isn't it
` true that there's nothing in Doughty that shows
` it integrated into any of those things? Isn't
` that correct?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: Doughty concentrates
` on a different embodiment, but it
` definitely states that it would be
` possible to do this.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. All right. Let's move on to Page 36.
` We'll go to the next claim element, and that
` would be Subparagraph c. And it says Claim 1,
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`Page 253
` and in brackets, it's a [b] for the next element,
` RFID circuitry operable to electrically couple
` the device to a payment terminal and to
` communicate RFID data to the payment terminal.
` With regard to RFID, is it your
` contention that -- that both of these references
` include RFID?
` A. It is.
` Q. And then -- so let's jump forward to
` Page 39, where the claim calls for a coil.
` And I believe you're relying on the
` Element Number 552 for that coil; is that
` correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And then we jump ahead now to
` Page 42.
` Page 42, we have Item --
` Subparagraph f. This appears to be Element
` [e] -- let's go back a second. I skipped
` Element [d] by mistake.
` So let's go back to Page 40 and
` Element [d]. This is Paragraph e, Element [d]
`Page 254
` of Claim 1, which is, quote, A processor for
` controlling the operation of the coil such that
` the coil is operable to electrically couple the
` device to the payment terminal and to
` communicate data in magnetic stripe data format
` to the payment terminal.
` Which processor would that be in
` Doughty?
` A. In Doughty Figure 3 -- Doughty
` Figure 3, we see the magnetic field generator is
` comprised of the coil and the control circuitry,
` but we see attached to the device processor a
` controller, which would provide the processing to
` determine what would be output from that coil in
` the magnetic field generator.
` Q. So that would be Element 314 in
` Figure 3?
` A. 314, correct.
` Q. Okay.
` All right. Now we can jump forward
` to Page 42.
` Now, we're at Subparagraph f, or
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`Page 255
` Element Number [e], that says, Wherein the coil
` is operable to electrically couple the device to
` the payment terminal from a position beneath a
` surface of the device.
` And so what in Doughty shows that
` the coil is operable to electrically couple the
` device to the payment terminal?
` A. So Doughty explains that the -- the
` magnetic field generator, which is 308 on that
` Figure 3, can be mounted on a substrate or
` disposed within the substrate. It explains that
` it can be integrated into a personal
` communication device. Obviously, a personal
` communication device can't be inserted into a
` point-of-sale terminal, so it could be placed
` beneath the magnetic read head in the
` point-of-sale terminal -- payment terminal.
` Q. What about the first part of that,
` where the coil is operable to electrically couple
` the device to the payment terminal?
` A. Figure 6 -- no, excuse me.
` Is it 5?
`
`Page 256
`
` Let me scroll. Hang on.
` (Scrolling.)
` THE WITNESS: Figure 5, b shows
` that -- the coil being controlled to take
` the time-varying signal of -- of bits
` which would interface with the magnetic
` read head.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. And when it does that, then it's
` electrically coupled to the payment terminal; is
` that correct?
` A. It's coupled to the payment terminal,
` yes.
` Q. All right. Let's go to Claim 2,
` which is shown on Page 43.
` A. Yep.
` Q. This is a dependent claim, so it just
` says, quote, The device of Claim 1, wherein the
` device is thicker than a payment card.
` And if you could just go over your
` basis for that again.
` A. So Doughty explains that -- that the
`
`
`
`7 (Pages 253 to 256)7 (Pages 253 to 256)
`
`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2040
`Page 7
`
`

`

`Page 257
` magnetic field generator is mounted within or on
` a substrate, which may be integrated into a
` device, such as a PDA. Obviously, a PDA is -- is
` much thicker than a payment card.
` Q. And -- and if we turn, then, to
` Claim 3, where it says, quote, The device of
` Claim 1, wherein the device is a portable
` telephonic device -- what's the support for that?
` A. Doughty discloses that the device can
` be a portable telephonic device. He calls it a
` "telecommunications device."
` Q. That's in that same paragraph, 48?
` A. In 48, yes.
` Q. So just to be clear, not that he says
` that it can be; it just -- isn't it correct that
` in 48, it says it can be integrated into one of
` those devices? Isn't that correct?
` A. That's what it says, yes.
` Q. Okay. If we turn the page to
` Page 45, we're dealing with Claim 4.
` Claim 4 is another dependent claim,
` that says, quote, The device of Claim 1, wherein
`Page 258
`
` the device is a portable media player.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. What's the support for that
` contention?
` A. So both Doughty and Zellner talk
` about a personal communications device, such as a
` PDA. Zellner actually discloses that that device
` could also be a portable media player.
` Q. And if we turn to the next page, on
` Page 6 [sic], Claim 5, it refers to, quote, The
` device of Claim 1, further comprising a display
` operable to display a virtual payment card.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. So in this instance, which one of the
` two references are you relying on for the virtual
` payment card?
` A. Zellner.
` Q. Okay. And so, then, it would be the
` combination of Doughty and -- with Zellner that
` would --
`
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`Page 259
`
` A. Correct.
` Q. If we can turn, then, to Page 50.
` We'll address Claim 6.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Claim 6 recites, quote, The device of
` Claim 1, further comprising a touch-sensitive
` display operable to display a virtual payment
` card.
` If you could just describe the basis
` for that.
` A. So Doughty talks about a display, but
` it is meant to just display the -- something like
` the account number of the card. But Zellner
` includes a full graphical display, one that is
` touch-sensitive that would allow it to display a
` full virtual representation of the card.
` Q. And, once again, that -- that full
` touch-sensitive display -- that appears to just
` be a piece of off-the-shelf hardware from
` somewhere -- some commercial product; isn't that
` correct?
` A. That's correct.
`
`Page 260
`
` Q. If we turn the page to Page 51.
` Fifty-one has Claim 7, which
` recites, quote, The device of Claim 1, wherein
` the RFID circuitry comprises an RFID antenna.
` Is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And which one of Zellner or Doughty
` provides that?
` A. So they both do. Doughty actually
` describes that the device includes multiple
` components, such as a radio frequency antenna.
` Zellner also goes into some description with an
` radio frequency RFID receiver and transmitter.
` Q. All right. If we move on to Page 52,
` we're dealing with Claim 8. That recites, The
` device of Claim 1, wherein the RFID circuitry is
` further operable to electrically couple the
` device to the payment terminal when the device is
` outside and within proximity of the payment
` terminal.
` And how is that shown by the
` combination of Doughty and Zellner?
`
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`8 (Pages 257 to 260)8 (Pages 257 to 260)
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`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2040
`Page 8
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`

`

`Page 261
` A. So both Doughty and Zellner refer to
` an RFID capability. As they can read RFID cards,
` such as a 14443 card, that information can then
` be fed to the magnetic emulator positioned near
` the -- the payment terminal to provide the
` information.
` Q. When you say "near the payment
` terminal," that's a unique part of the claim that
` says, within proximity of a payment terminal?
` A. That's correct. The device will be
` outside the terminal. It cannot go through the
` swipe slot, but it would be close to -- in
` proximity to the payment terminal.
` Q. Okay. If we turn to Page 54, we
` have -- Claim 9 is next. This is a new
` independent claim, so we're sort of starting all
` over again.
` The preamble, this time, says, A
` device comprising.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. And is this the device that's shown
`Page 262
` in Doughty, or is this ultimately the -- the
` PDA-type device that's shown in Figure 12 of
` Zellner?
` MR. RABINOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: This -- I have
` written that Doughty discloses the
` device.
` BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Okay. Claim -- the first claim
` element, Claim Element [a], which is in
` Paragraph B, says, quote, Circuitry for cellular
` communications.
` Where would that circuitry come
` from?
` A. So Doughty explains that -- that the
` type of devices that it could be incorporated
` into include a personal communications device.
` But Zellner actually talks about, in one of
` its -- yeah, talks about a cellular subsystem as
` part of the work -- the system that it's
` describing.
` Q. All right. And the next paragraph is
`
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`Page 263
`
` listed as c and Element -- it refers to
` Element 9[b], quote, An RFID receiver operable to
` electrically couple to a payment terminal and to
` communicate RFID data to the payment terminal.
` What's the basis of that opinion?
` A. So both Doughty and Zellner include
` references to RFID. It would be possible to
` interrogate an RFID card to translate it into
` magnetic -- the -- the magnetic emulator and
` communicate that information to the payment
` terminal.
` Q. And then that would satisfy the "to
` electrically couple to the payment terminal"; is
` that correct?
` A. It would; that's correct.
` Q. Then if we turn to Page -- the next
` page, Page 55.
` And there's two more elements left
` for Claim 9. The first one is in Paragraph --
` Subparagraph d, Element [c], A processor for
` controlling a coil operable to electrically
` couple to the payment terminal and to
`
`Page 264
` communicate magnetic stripe data to the payment
` terminal.
` Which processor would that be in
` this case? Is that again Figure 3 from Doughty?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And so I assume you're referring to
` Element 314 in Figure 3; is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And the coil in this -- in this
` instance, which coil is that, again?
` A. The coil that's described in 5B --
` Q. So that would be --
` A. -- Figure 5B.
` Q. The coil 552 is the one that
` electrically couples to the payment terminal?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. Let's look at the next
` element, Element e -- or Paragraph e, which is
` Element [d], quote, Wherein the coil is operable
` to electrically couple the device to the payment
` terminal from a position beneath the -- a surface
` of the device.
`
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`9 (Pages 261 to 264)9 (Pages 261 to 264)
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`

`Page 265
` Could you just describe the basis
` for that element?
` A. So Doughty discloses this coil in
` Figure 5B and states that this could be
` included -- excuse me -- included in a -- a PDA-
` or cell phone-type device. That coil would then
` be too large to go into the magnetic read slot.
` So it would be from outside of the payment
` terminal, could be beneath the surface of the
` payment terminal, and it would couple to that
` device -- couple to the read head.
` Q. And then Claim 10 is a dependent
` claim that's shown next in Paragraph -- or
` Heading 11. It refers to the device of Claim 9,
` Wherein the device is thicker than a payment
` card.
` If you could just briefly go over
` that opinion again.
` A. So Doughty actually says that the
` device is thicker than a payment card. It also
` talks about it being -- it could be incorporated
` into a PDA, which is obviously thicker than a
`Page 266
`
` payment card.
` Q. And then on the next page, on
` Page 56, Claim 11 refers to a portable telephonic
` device, Claim 12 refers to a portable media
` player, Claim 13 refers to a virtual payment
` card, and Claim 14 refers to the touch-sensitive
` display.
` Is -- do you have any other opinions
` or -- with regard to those four elements, or
` would that be consistent with what we just
` talked about previously?
` A. That would be consistent.
` Q. If we turn now to Page 57, there's
` Claims 15 and 16 that relate to RFID.
` Is -- for those two claims, is your
` testimony consistent with the discussion we just
` had a few minutes ago with regard to the RFID
` antenna and the electrically coupling RFID?
` A. It is.
`