·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
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`Page 1
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`·2· · ·UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · WASHINGTON, D.C.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · * * * * * *
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`·5
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`·6· ·In the Matter of
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Inv. No. 337-TA-1170
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`·8· ·CERTAIN MOBILE DEVICES WITH
`· · ·MULTIFUNCTION EMULATORS
`·9
`· · ·________________________________
`10
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`11
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`12· · · · · · · · VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·STUART LIPOFF
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`14· · · · · · · ·Taken on February 26, 2020
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · at 9:16 a.m.
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`16· · · · · · ·By a Certified Court Reporter
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`17· · · · · · · · · ·Las Vegas, Nevada
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`18
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`19
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`20· · · · · · ·Stenographically reported by:
`· · · · · · · ·Heidi K. Konsten, RPR, CCR
`21· · · · Nevada CCR No. 845 - NCRA RPR No. 816435
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25· ·Job No. 177819
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`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2041
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
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`·2· · · · · · ·Videotaped deposition of STUART
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`·3· ·LIPOFF, Volume 1, stenographically taken at 400
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`·4· ·South Fourth Street, Suite 500, Las Vegas,
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`·5· ·Nevada, on Wednesday, February 26, 2020, at 9:16
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`·6· ·a.m., before Heidi K. Konsten, Certified Court
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`·7· ·Reporter in and for the State of Nevada.
`
`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · ·APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
`
`10· ·For the Complainant:
`
`11· · · · · · ·ROBERT MORRIS, ESQ.
`
`· · · · · · · ·OJEIKU AISIKU, ESQ.
`
`12· · · · · · ·Eckert Seamans Cherin & Mellott
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`· · · · · · · ·10 Bank Street
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`13· · · · · · ·White Plains, New York 10606
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`14
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`15
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`16· ·For the Respondents:
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`17· · · · · · ·ALAN RABINOWITZ, ESQ.
`
`· · · · · · · ·Kirkland & Ellis
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`18· · · · · · ·601 Lexington Avenue
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`· · · · · · · ·New York, New York 10022
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`· · ·Also present:· ·Dawn Beck, Videographer
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`22
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`23· · · · · · · · · · · * * * * * *
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
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`·2
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`·3· · · · · · · · · EXHIBITS (continued)
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`·4· ·No.· · · · · · · · ·Description· · · · · ·Page
`
`·5· ·Exhibit 11· · ·United States Patent No.· · 196
`
`· · · · · · · · · · 7,828,214
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`·6
`
`· · ·Exhibit 12· · ·United States Patent No.· · 211
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · 7,114,652
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`·8· ·Exhibit 13· · ·Declaration· · · · · · · · ·283
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`·9· ·Exhibit 14· · ·Deposition transcript of· · 287
`
`· · · · · · · · · · Bruce S. Cloutier
`
`10
`
`· · ·Exhibit 15· · ·United States Patent No.· · 299
`
`11· · · · · · · · · 7,690,580
`
`12· ·Exhibit 16· · ·United States Patent No.· · 301
`
`· · · · · · · · · · 8,827,153
`
`13
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`Page 2
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`Page 3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·4· ·STUART LIPOFF
`·5· ·Examination by Mr. Morris· · · · · · · · · · 6
`·6· ·Examination by Mr. Rabinowitz· · · · · · · 333
`·7
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · EXHIBITS
`10· ·No.· · · · · · · · ·Description· · · · · ·Page
`11· ·Exhibit 1· · · Expert report of Stuart· · · 13
`· · · · · · · · · · J. Lipoff
`12
`· · ·Exhibit 2· · · United Stated Patent· · · · ·83
`13· · · · · · · · · 4,868,376
`14· ·Exhibit 3· · · United States Patent No.· · ·89
`· · · · · · · · · · 6,206,293
`15
`· · ·Exhibit 4· · · United States Patent No.· · ·93
`16· · · · · · · · · 6,769,607
`17· ·Exhibit 5· · · United States Patent No.· · 155
`· · · · · · · · · · 4,401,601
`18
`· · ·Exhibit 6· · · United States Patent No.· · 175
`19· · · · · · · · · 5,434,398
`20· ·Exhibit 7· · · United States Patent No.· · 179
`· · · · · · · · · · 7,097,108
`21
`· · ·Exhibit 8· · · United States Patent No.· · 181
`22· · · · · · · · · 10,032,100
`23· ·Exhibit 9· · · United States Patent No.· · 188
`· · · · · · · · · · 7,239,226
`24
`· · ·Exhibit 10· · ·United States Patent No.· · 192
`25· · · · · · · · · 7,543,739
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`Page 4
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`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · · · · · · ·LAS VEGAS, NEVADA
`·3· · · · · · · Wednesday, February 26, 2020
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · ·9:16 a.m.
`·5· · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF STUART LIPOFF
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · * * * * * *
`·7
`·8· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Good morning.
`·9· ·This is the start of Media File No. 1 in the
`10· ·video-recorded deposition of Stuart Lipoff in
`11· ·the matter of Certain Mobile Devices with
`12· ·Multifunction Emulators for the United States
`13· ·International Trade Commission, Washington,
`14· ·D.C., Investigation No. 337-TA-1170.
`15· · · · · · ·This deposition is being held at
`16· ·400 South Fourth Street, Suite 500, in
`17· ·Las Vegas, Nevada, on February 26, 2020, at
`18· ·9:16 a.m.· My name is Dawn Beck, and I'm the
`19· ·legal video specialist from TSG Reporting,
`20· ·Inc., headquartered at 747 3rd Avenue, New
`21· ·York, New York.· The court reporter is Heidi
`22· ·Konsten, in association with TSG Reporting.
`23· · · · · · ·Counsel, will you please introduce
`24· ·yourselves for the record.
`25· · · · · · ·MR. MORRIS:· Sure.· This is Robert
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`Dynamics Inc. - EX. 2041
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`Page 6
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·Morris from Eckert Seamans on behalf of
`·3· ·complainant Dynamics.· With me is Ojeiku
`·4· ·Aisiku.
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· This is Alan
`·6· ·Rabinowitz with Kirkland & Ellis representing
`·7· ·the Samsung respondents and the witness.
`·8· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Will the court
`·9· ·reporter please administer the oath.
`10
`11· ·Whereupon,
`12· · · · · · · · · · ·STUART LIPOFF,
`13· ·was called as a witness, and having been first
`14· ·duly sworn to testify to the truth, was
`15· ·examined and testified as follows:
`16
`17· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`18· ·BY MR. MORRIS:
`19· · · · Q· · Good morning, Mr. Lipoff.
`20· · · · A· · Good morning.
`21· · · · Q· · Just going to go over some ground
`22· ·rules.
`23· · · · · · ·Have you been deposed before?
`24· · · · A· · Yes, I have.
`25· · · · Q· · And how many times have you been
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·deposed before?
`·3· · · · A· · Probably about a dozen.
`·4· · · · Q· · Okay.· And so you understand I'm
`·5· ·going to -- throughout this process, I'll ask
`·6· ·you questions, and you're expected to give
`·7· ·answers.
`·8· · · · · · ·Do you understand that?
`·9· · · · A· · I do understand.
`10· · · · Q· · And you understand that those answers
`11· ·need to be oral answers and that nodding or
`12· ·shaking heads or hands and things like that
`13· ·can't be written down by the court reporter.
`14· ·And so we want to have an accurate record, and
`15· ·I'm just asking that all of your answers be
`16· ·oral.
`17· · · · · · ·Is that okay?
`18· · · · A· · That's okay.
`19· · · · Q· · And is there any medical conditions
`20· ·or any -- any other conditions in any other way
`21· ·that would inhibit your ability to give
`22· ·truthful and complete testimony today?
`23· · · · A· · Nothing I'm aware of.
`24· · · · Q· · When were you engaged in this matter?
`25· · · · A· · I don't know the exact date, but it's
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`Page 8
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`Page 9
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·three or four months ago, something on that
`·3· ·order.
`·4· · · · Q· · And who engaged you?
`·5· · · · A· · Kirkland & Ellis.
`·6· · · · Q· · And which lawyer in particular?
`·7· · · · A· · You know, I -- I'm trying to remember
`·8· ·the name.· I think it was Ed Donovan.· You
`·9· ·know, I don't -- don't remember.
`10· · · · Q· · And what were you engaged to do?
`11· · · · A· · I was engaged to provide opinions
`12· ·regarding claim construction terms in -- for
`13· ·the patents-in-suit, and then subsequently to
`14· ·prepare the expert report today dealing with
`15· ·issues of validity of the four patents-in-suit.
`16· · · · Q· · And with regard to the claim
`17· ·construction, I understand that when you
`18· ·prepared this expert report, that hadn't issued
`19· ·yet; is that correct?
`20· · · · A· · That's correct, yeah.· I believe
`21· ·it -- it issued a couple of days after -- after
`22· ·the date of my report, which was January 30.
`23· · · · Q· · And have you since reviewed the claim
`24· ·construction?
`25· · · · A· · I haven't seen the judge's order, but
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·I did -- I did scan the report from your
`·3· ·expert, rebuttal report, Mr. Zatkovich, and
`·4· ·he -- he had a table of -- of the claim
`·5· ·constructions in there.· I assume that -- that
`·6· ·they're accurate representations of the judge's
`·7· ·order.
`·8· · · · Q· · Okay.· And with regard to opinions
`·9· ·that are in your expert report that are based
`10· ·on the respondents' constructions, are you
`11· ·aware that some of your opinions essentially --
`12· ·and we can look at some of them as we get into
`13· ·the report.
`14· · · · · · ·But there are instances where you
`15· ·say, in addition, if the respondents'
`16· ·construction is adopted, then you give
`17· ·additional opinion.
`18· · · · A· · Yes.· So if -- if I understand
`19· ·your -- your question, just to make sure I do
`20· ·understand your question, are you asking me
`21· ·whether I took account of the -- the judge's
`22· ·order in terms of reviewing my report to see
`23· ·whether I would change anything?· Is that -- is
`24· ·that the question?· I'm not sure what you're
`25· ·asking.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · Q· · I guess my question is really with
`·3· ·regard to your -- your report, since it was
`·4· ·prepared before the order came out.· There were
`·5· ·certain opinions at certain points in time in
`·6· ·the report where you gave an opinion based on
`·7· ·the respondents' construction being adopted by
`·8· ·the court.
`·9· · · · · · ·Do you remember doing that?
`10· · · · A· · I do recall there's some instances
`11· ·where -- where I say that on the basis of the
`12· ·respondents' construction, this is my opinion,
`13· ·yes.
`14· · · · Q· · And now that the claim construction
`15· ·order has issued, for any of those particular
`16· ·opinions that are based on the respondents'
`17· ·construction, if the respondents' construction
`18· ·was not adopted by the court, are you
`19· ·withdrawing those opinions?
`20· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· Objection.
`21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- I am not.· I -- I
`22· ·have reviewed my report subsequent to scanning
`23· ·Mr. Zatkovich's representation of the
`24· ·constructions, and there's nothing I saw in
`25· ·there that would cause me to change any of my
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·opinions.· I think my -- the opinions that I
`·3· ·have in the -- in the current report are still
`·4· ·sustained in light of these.
`·5· ·BY MR. MORRIS:
`·6· · · · Q· · And so even the opinions that are
`·7· ·based on the court having a construction that
`·8· ·was not adopted, you're still maintaining those
`·9· ·opinions?
`10· · · · A· · Yes, because -- I guess when we get
`11· ·to individual instances, if you ask me about it
`12· ·today, I -- I can respond more specifically.
`13· ·But I believe in all instances, the court's
`14· ·construction was broader than the -- the
`15· ·respondents' construction, so there was no need
`16· ·to change any of my opinions.
`17· · · · Q· · Okay.· Can I get a copy of the
`18· ·report?
`19· · · · · · ·You -- do you have your own copy of
`20· ·the report with you?
`21· · · · A· · I do, yes.
`22· · · · Q· · Okay.· If you need to refer to that,
`23· ·just to make things easier, you can.· We'll
`24· ·mark one as an exhibit, and then we have one
`25· ·for Mr. Rabinowitz.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· Thank you.
`·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· This is
`·4· ·double-sided, so it's a little more compact.
`·5· ·But I'll use whichever one you want me to use,
`·6· ·as long as I have one.
`·7· ·BY MR. MORRIS:
`·8· · · · Q· · Do you want -- do you need to keep
`·9· ·that when we're done?
`10· · · · A· · I would like to, yes.
`11· · · · Q· · Okay.
`12· · · · A· · Yes, because I think it's less pages
`13· ·and -- than -- than that, but it's --
`14· · · · Q· · Yeah.
`15· · · · A· · -- it's unadulterated.· It's not
`16· ·edited or marked, but --
`17· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· I'm a little bit
`18· ·confused that the version you gave me doesn't
`19· ·have a signature on it.
`20· · · · · · ·MR. MORRIS:· I just noticed that. I
`21· ·don't even know how that's possible.
`22· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· I'm not sure how
`23· ·that's possible either.
`24· · · · · · ·MR. AISIKU:· Yes, me neither.
`25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'll put this aside if
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·you want.
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. MORRIS:· Sure.· Let's -- I guess
`·4· ·let's go off the record for a second while we
`·5· ·try to figure this out.
`·6· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are going off
`·7· ·record at 9:23 a.m.
`·8· · · · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
`·9· · · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
`10· · · · · · · · · ·identification.)
`11· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are back on
`12· ·record at 9:31 a.m.
`13· ·BY MR. MORRIS:
`14· · · · Q· · All right.· I've had the court
`15· ·reporter mark as Exhibit 1 a multipage document
`16· ·with lots of pages that should be your expert
`17· ·report, if you could just take a few seconds to
`18· ·give it a quick look at.· Obviously you can't
`19· ·confirm the contents of every single thing.
`20· · · · A· · Yes, this -- this appears to be the
`21· ·expert report I submitted in this matter
`22· ·regarding my opinion on the validity of the
`23· ·four patents-in-suit without the -- I guess it
`24· ·doesn't have all of the exhibits or
`25· ·attachments, but it's the body of the report.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · Q· · Yeah, I believe it's got, as far as
`·3· ·the exhibits go, I think the first three
`·4· ·exhibits.· It doesn't have all the claim
`·5· ·charts.· So just for clarity, if you'll turn
`·6· ·past page 286, I believe you'll find Exhibit
`·7· ·No. 1.
`·8· · · · · · ·What's Exhibit No. 1, once you get
`·9· ·there?
`10· · · · A· · I'm turning there.· Exhibit 1 is a
`11· ·copy of my CV.
`12· · · · Q· · And then what's Exhibit No. 2?
`13· · · · A· · Exhibit No. 2 is a listing of hearing
`14· ·or deposition testimony in the past four years.
`15· · · · Q· · And then what's Exhibit No. 3 after
`16· ·that?
`17· · · · A· · Exhibit 3 is list of materials
`18· ·covered, and that's the last exhibit.
`19· · · · Q· · And are there any materials that
`20· ·you've considered that aren't on this list?
`21· · · · A· · Well, it's a -- it's a long list.· So
`22· ·what I can say is that everything that's on
`23· ·this list, as well as anything that may have
`24· ·been cited in the documents that may or may not
`25· ·be on this list, but I -- as I sit here, I
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·haven't done a -- a comparison.
`·3· · · · · · ·But I don't believe there's anything
`·4· ·that's either not cited within the body of the
`·5· ·report or in Exhibit 3 that I -- I have
`·6· ·considered.· I think they're -- they're all
`·7· ·identified, either one of those two places.
`·8· ·Excuse me.
`·9· · · · Q· · Okay.· If you turn to the list of
`10· ·what you considered and go to the -- the third
`11· ·page at the bottom where it refers to
`12· ·depositions --
`13· · · · A· · Okay.· Are you referring me to
`14· ·Exhibit 3?
`15· · · · Q· · Correct.
`16· · · · A· · Okay.
`17· · · · Q· · All right.
`18· · · · A· · Yes, I see that.
`19· · · · Q· · Between pages three and four, it
`20· ·looks like you've reviewed six deposition
`21· ·transcripts.
`22· · · · · · ·Did you review any others?
`23· · · · A· · I don't believe so.
`24· · · · Q· · Did you review the transcript of
`25· ·Bruce Cloutier?
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · A· · It's not familiar to me.· Again, I --
`·3· ·I don't think so.· If -- if there's some
`·4· ·excerpts or something from other deposition
`·5· ·testimony that may be in my report, I may have,
`·6· ·but I -- that name isn't familiar to me.
`·7· · · · Q· · Mr. Cloutier is one of the inventors
`·8· ·of the '153 patent.
`·9· · · · · · ·Are you aware of that?
`10· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· Objection.
`11· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I could confirm that by
`12· ·looking at the patent, but I haven't focused on
`13· ·the -- the individual inventors with respect to
`14· ·memorizing all of their names.
`15· ·BY MR. MORRIS:
`16· · · · Q· · Okay.· Did you, by any chance, read
`17· ·the deposition transcript of Jeffrey Mullen?
`18· · · · A· · I don't think so.· I should say that
`19· ·I have been provided some excerpts from some of
`20· ·the deposition transcripts of some of the
`21· ·witnesses, which I have cited to, I know, in my
`22· ·report.· But I haven't -- unless it's -- unless
`23· ·it's listed here on this -- in this exhibit, I
`24· ·haven't read the entire transcript.
`25· · · · Q· · Did you read the entire transcript of
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·the six deposition transcripts that are listed
`·3· ·here?
`·4· · · · A· · I did scan them.· I don't know that I
`·5· ·necessarily internalized every -- every point
`·6· ·in there.· I only took an opportunity to focus
`·7· ·on points that I thought were relevant.
`·8· · · · Q· · And when you say you scanned them,
`·9· ·did you scan them from the beginning to the
`10· ·end, or you just kind of flipped pages?
`11· · · · A· · I -- I don't know how to kind of
`12· ·characterize that.· I did -- I did look through
`13· ·them.· I paid more or less attention to
`14· ·individual sections that I thought were
`15· ·important.
`16· · · · Q· · With regard to your personal
`17· ·experience, have you -- have you ever done any
`18· ·tests concerning magnetic emulation?
`19· · · · A· · So I -- I want to give -- I want to
`20· ·be responsive to your question.· I'm not sure
`21· ·what you would characterize under the category
`22· ·of testing.
`23· · · · Q· · Outside of your work for Chameleon,
`24· ·have you ever played around with card readers
`25· ·and cards to see how they work?
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · A· · If "played around" means have I
`·3· ·analyzed and worked with the technology
`·4· ·associated with it, the answer is yes.
`·5· · · · Q· · And in what context was that, outside
`·6· ·of your work with Chameleon?
`·7· · · · A· · Yeah, so I believe most, if not all
`·8· ·of this, is probably cited to in my CV.· But
`·9· ·there was a project I did for the New York
`10· ·Metropolitan Transit Authority for automatic
`11· ·fare collection, looking at technologies and
`12· ·use around the world for public transit access,
`13· ·most of which involved magnetic stripe
`14· ·technology and issues associated with the cost
`15· ·and security and reliability, ruggedness, so on
`16· ·and so forth, of it.
`17· · · · · · ·I did a multi-year project for the
`18· ·consortium of the major banks here in the
`19· ·country, looking at a wide variety or suite of
`20· ·technologies associated with the next
`21· ·generation banking that involved ATM access and
`22· ·various media -- both magstripe media and other
`23· ·mixed media that would be used with ATMs.
`24· · · · · · ·I did two large projects --
`25· · · · Q· · If we can just take a second, as you
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·go through these, if you just want to go back
`·3· ·to Exhibit 1 --
`·4· · · · A· · Okay.
`·5· · · · Q· · -- it might help if we can just put
`·6· ·it into context to which line items that you're
`·7· ·referring to.
`·8· · · · A· · Sure.
`·9· · · · Q· · I noticed on page four, the second to
`10· ·the last bullet, looks to be the MTE work that
`11· ·you were talking about.
`12· · · · A· · Do you want me to kind of go through
`13· ·this in order, start over or --
`14· · · · Q· · Yeah, if you could, just -- and if we
`15· ·can just talk about the ones where you dealt
`16· ·with magnetic card readers.
`17· · · · A· · Okay.· So the first bullet here is
`18· ·the Chameleon Network activity, which if you
`19· ·want me to elaborate on, I can.
`20· · · · Q· · Sure.
`21· · · · A· · So as it says here, this was a
`22· ·prerevenue start-up venture that was publicly
`23· ·described as Chameleon Network, and I served as
`24· ·the chief technical officer.· And the focus of
`25· ·that was to explore the integration of
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`·2· ·electronic wallet technology and the next
`·3· ·generation of products.
`·4· · · · · · ·A key component of that was the
`·5· ·ability to emulate a magstripe that would be
`·6· ·operable in the 20 million or so existing
`·7· ·point-of-sale terminals that were compliant
`·8· ·with the -- the International Standards
`·9· ·Organization, ISO standards for magstripe on
`10· ·financial transactions cards.
`11· · · · · · ·I did a -- the next bullet on here,
`12· ·it talks about the next-generation network
`13· ·architecture project that was done for a
`14· ·consortium of cable companies.· And the focus
`15· ·of that was on evolving the hardware and
`16· ·systems that were in use by consumers in their
`17· ·home to access both the basic cable services,
`18· ·but also advanced services such as
`19· ·pay-per-view.· And one of the technologies
`20· ·being explored was the use of buying tickets to
`21· ·view particular movies or premium events such
`22· ·as sport -- sporting matches and fights and so
`23· ·forth.
`24· · · · · · ·And one of the technologies looked at
`25· ·was magstripe technology.· Also RFID and -- and
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·various other kinds of tokens that you could
`·3· ·insert into the set-top box that would unlock
`·4· ·essentially a ticket to allow you to unlock
`·5· ·stuff.
`·6· · · · · · ·The MCNS project that is identified
`·7· ·next one down, Multimedia Network Cable Systems
`·8· ·Group, was focused on establishing the
`·9· ·standards for cable modem technology.· And one
`10· ·of the -- one of the major issues with that was
`11· ·trying to develop a security architecture so
`12· ·that only those consumers who had actually
`13· ·signed up for the cable modem service would be
`14· ·able to hook up a cable modem to the system and
`15· ·receive Internet access.
`16· · · · · · ·And although we ultimately didn't go
`17· ·with it, explored using various kinds of
`18· ·security tokens, including magstripe and ISO
`19· ·7816 smart cards as alternative ways in which
`20· ·you would provide security to the digital
`21· ·set-top box and cable modem.
`22· · · · Q· · So for an advanced project like that,
`23· ·why would anybody even consider adding a
`24· ·magstripe reading inside of an advanced box
`25· ·like that when you could do RFID or --
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · A· · Because there would be instances
`·3· ·where you would want to have the ability to
`·4· ·have the end consumer to be able to purchase a
`·5· ·movie in their home using their existing Visa,
`·6· ·MasterCard, or American Express by inserting it
`·7· ·into the box.· And you could either purchase a
`·8· ·ticket at 7-Eleven or you could use your
`·9· ·existing financial transaction card.
`10· · · · · · ·There also was some consideration
`11· ·given to supporting the state lottery and a
`12· ·variety of other things, but using public
`13· ·financial transaction cards --
`14· · · · Q· · Okay.
`15· · · · A· · -- which at the time had a magstripe.
`16· · · · · · ·The page three of my -- my CV
`17· ·identifies the -- a client who was not a
`18· ·cellular network operator, but fell under the
`19· ·category that the industry calls a virtual
`20· ·mobile network operator, resells PCS services.
`21· ·And they were looking into how they could
`22· ·differentiate their product by incorporating
`23· ·features into the handset which would allow it
`24· ·to do things such as point-of-sale financial
`25· ·transactions.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · · · ·And the focus of that was using smart
`·3· ·card technology, but briefly considered
`·4· ·alternatives that might -- might involve using
`·5· ·a magstripe or interfacing to existing
`·6· ·point-of-sale terminals.
`·7· · · · · · ·Mastercard -- the next bullet down
`·8· ·relates to Mastercard and Visa.· And although
`·9· ·they do compete on the front end for customers
`10· ·and -- and bank members, they -- they cooperate
`11· ·heavily in the back office with respect to
`12· ·anticounterfeiting and various types of fraud.
`13· · · · · · ·And they retained my services to look
`14· ·at a -- both a variety of technical
`15· ·alternatives that had been provided to them by
`16· ·third parties, as well as to help them deliver
`17· ·some ideas that may not have been created by
`18· ·third parties and analyze some of the
`19· ·technology all associated with -- at that --
`20· ·focusing on magstripes, which were the focus of
`21· ·counterfeiting.
`22· · · · · · ·So explored issues such as high
`23· ·coercivity magstripes that some of the
`24· ·off-the-shelf equipment that had been used for
`25· ·counterfeiting wouldn't work with because they
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·required very high current drains.· Also
`·3· ·technology such as magstripe watermarking and a
`·4· ·variety of other things that required looking
`·5· ·at the capabilities of existing point-of-sale
`·6· ·equipment, as well as the technology associated
`·7· ·with manufacturing the credit cards and some
`·8· ·concepts of -- including cryptographic features
`·9· ·into the magstripe that would deter fraud.
`10· · · · Q· · And so in this work that you've been
`11· ·doing throughout all this time, do you have
`12· ·your own set of equipment?· Do you have your
`13· ·own set of card readers and things like that
`14· ·that you rely on?
`15· · · · A· · I -- at the time I was doing these
`16· ·projects, I was working for Arthur D. Little,
`17· ·which is a consulting company based in
`18· ·Massachusetts.· We were an organization of 2500
`19· ·people, and 50 or so labs pretty much equipped
`20· ·with state-of-the-art test equipment, doing a
`21· ·lot of work for the credit card companies in
`22· ·general.
`23· · · · · · ·I'm listing only my own experience,
`24· ·but we had labs specifically focused on the
`25· ·mechanical testing of credit cards, to flex
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·them and -- electron microscopes and Kelvin
`·3· ·probes and the ability to do all sorts of
`·4· ·electronic magnetic -- electromagnetic chemical
`·5· ·testing, mechanical testing on -- on credit
`·6· ·cards.
`·7· · · · Q· · And when did you leave ADL?
`·8· · · · A· · Around 2001, I believe.
`·9· · · · Q· · And so in any of the work that you've
`10· ·done in the 19 years since then, have -- do you
`11· ·now have your own magstripe readers?
`12· · · · A· · I actually do.· I've continued to do
`13· ·work for the -- as a consultant for cable
`14· ·companies and cellular companies and some other
`15· ·litigation support work that involved issues
`16· ·associated with SIM cards that are the same
`17· ·underlying technology that goes into the -- the
`18· ·financial transaction smart cards or ISO 7816
`19· ·compatible things.
`20· · · · · · ·So I don't have the functional --
`21· ·full functional capability of a laboratory
`22· ·currently that I did when I worked at Arthur D.
`23· ·Little, but I -- I do have a magstripe reader
`24· ·and some -- some test equipment, yes.
`25· · · · Q· · And in working on this expert report,
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·did you use that magstripe reader or any of
`·3· ·those magstripe readers or any other magstripe
`·4· ·readers in your work to come up with your
`·5· ·opinions that are set forth in this report of
`·6· ·Exhibit 1?
`·7· · · · A· · I did provide, from my archives and
`·8· ·files, production of documents to Kirkland &
`·9· ·Ellis.· And I did use one of the magstripe
`10· ·readers I had to demonstrate to them early on
`11· ·in the project that some of the files that I
`12· ·had created back when I was functioning as a
`13· ·CTO of -- of Chameleon Network, the -- the
`14· ·files that I had stored on my computer, audio
`15· ·files could be played to a transducer, and the
`16· ·magstripe reader that I had would pick them up
`17· ·and would show them.
`18· · · · · · ·So I did go to a conference room and
`19· ·set that equipment up and -- and demonstrate
`20· ·that to them, yes.
`21· · · · Q· · And who did you demonstrate that to
`22· ·in particular, if you remember?
`23· · · · A· · I don't remember who was out here
`24· ·to -- for that meeting.· I would have to go
`25· ·look at some of my records to see.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · Q· · And so where did that occur?
`·3· · · · A· · It occurred here in Las Vegas at my
`·4· ·residence.· A conference room that is in the
`·5· ·building where my residence is.
`·6· · · · Q· · Okay.· Had you already signed an
`·7· ·engagement letter to work with the attorneys at
`·8· ·Kirkland & Ellis at the time you made that
`·9· ·demonstration?
`10· · · · A· · I believe so.· I -- I don't -- I
`11· ·would have to go look and verify that, but I
`12· ·believe I had, yes.
`13· · · · Q· · Had you met with anybody from
`14· ·Kirkland & Ellis before that trip?
`15· · · · A· · No.· Just phone calls.
`16· · · · Q· · And do you recall whether or not,
`17· ·before these people came out, whether you had
`18· ·signed that engagement letter yet?
`19· · · · A· · I think you asked me that, and I
`20· ·believe my answer is the same.· I -- I don't
`21· ·recall, but I think so.
`22· · · · · · ·Do you want me to continue with
`23· ·the --
`24· · · · Q· · No, I think I -- I think you've done
`25· ·a nice job of -- of setting forth that you
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·have -- you have had extensive experience
`·3· ·dealing with this stuff for a while.
`·4· · · · · · ·If you could turn in your report to
`·5· ·table of contents that has page ii.· And you
`·6· ·can use the one in your book if you want.· You
`·7· ·don't have to use that big one that's
`·8· ·unwielding if that -- whatever is easier for
`·9· ·you.· It's the same document.
`10· · · · A· · Okay.· I'll use this.
`11· · · · · · ·Ii is what you want me to go to?
`12· · · · Q· · Correct.
`13· · · · · · ·And as you can see in -- I guess
`14· ·three-quarters or so of the way down, there's a
`15· ·heading, XI, "The '153 patent asserted claims
`16· ·are invalid."
`17· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`18· · · · A· · I see that, yes.
`19· · · · Q· · If I go through -- from this page on
`20· ·through the next few pages, there's a listing
`21· ·of various opinions that you have about how the
`22· ·various claims of one of the -- one or more of
`23· ·the asserted patent is invalid.
`24· · · · · · ·Do you see that in general?
`25· · · · A· · I see that in general, yes.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· · · · Q· · Are those all the opinions that
`·3· ·you've set forth?
`·4· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· Objection.
`·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, they're all the
`·6· ·opinions that I -- I have in this -- in this
`·7· ·report.· I understand you may -- may ask me
`·8· ·questions during this deposition that may
`·9· ·elicit some elaboration or additional opinions,
`10· ·which I'm prepared to give.
`11· · · · · · ·And that I also understand that --
`12· ·that I can supplement any of these things if
`13· ·there are other things that come to light
`14· ·afterwards that were not available to me prior
`15· ·to writing this report.· But as far as all of
`16· ·the opinions that relate to the validity, I
`17· ·believe they're contained within this report.
`18· ·BY MR. MORRIS:
`19· · · · Q· · Okay.· So if I go through the table
`20· ·of contents, for example, where it says an XI,
`21· ·C, it says "The '153 patent asserted claims are
`22· ·rendered obvious by Lessin in view of
`23· ·Shoemaker."
`24· · · · A· · Uh-huh.
`25· · · · Q· · Right?· Is that -- does that mean
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·that you don't say that Claim 1 is anticipated
`·3· ·by anything?· Because right there you only
`·4· ·state that it's obvious --
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· Objection.
`·6· ·BY MR. MORRIS:
`·7· · · · Q· · -- with regard to that reference, the
`·8· ·Lessin reference.
`·9· · · · A· · Yeah, so I don't believe I opined in
`10· ·the report in that section that Lessin
`11· ·anticipates by itself.
`12· · · · Q· · Just to be clear, all I'm trying to
`13· ·do is I'm trying to know what's on the field.
`14· ·I want to know what it is that you say your
`15· ·opinions are.· I want to make sure that all of
`16· ·those opinions were in the contentions that
`17· ·Samsung set forth as to what the invalidity
`18· ·contentions are.
`19· · · · · · ·Because while you're at some level
`20· ·allowed to elaborate, you understand you can't
`21· ·create brand-new invalidity contentions here on
`22· ·the fly.
`23· · · · · · ·Do you understand that?
`24· · · · · · ·MR. RABINOWITZ:· Objection.
`25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I will rely upon
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Stuart Lipoff
`·2· ·counsel to either stop me from saying something
`·3· ·or -- or you.· But I'm not an attorney, so I
`·4· ·don't know what the bounds of what's allowed or
`·5· ·not allowed here are.
`·6· · · · · · ·But as I -