·1· · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`Page 1
`
`·2· · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`·4· ·NETFLIX, INC. AND HULU,· · · )
`· · ·LLC,· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· Case No.:
`·6· · · · · · · · Plaintiff,· · · )· IPR2020-00648
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·7· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · ·)· U.S. Patent No. 9,998,515
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· ·DIVX, LLC,· · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · Defendant.· · · )
`10· · · ________________________· )
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14· · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF DR. KENNETH ZEGER
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · ·March 23, 2021
`
`16· · · · · · · · · · ·CONDUCTED VIRTUALLY
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23· ·REPORTED BY:
`
`24· ·Tammy Moon, CSR No. 13184, RMR, CRR
`
`25· ·JOB NO. 189551
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0001
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 1
`
`·2· · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`·4· ·NETFLIX, INC. AND HULU,· · · )
`· · ·LLC,· · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· Case No.:
`·6· · · · · · · · Plaintiff,· · · )· IPR2020-00648
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·7· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · ·)· U.S. Patent No. 9,998,515
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· ·DIVX, LLC,· · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · Defendant.· · · )
`10· · · ________________________· )
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14· · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF DR. KENNETH ZEGER
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · ·March 23, 2021
`
`16· · · · · · · · · · ·CONDUCTED VIRTUALLY
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23· ·REPORTED BY:
`
`24· ·Tammy Moon, CSR No. 13184, RMR, CRR
`
`25· ·JOB NO. 189551
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0001
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
`·1
`
`·2
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · March 23, 2021
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · 8:04 a.m.
`
`·5
`
`·6
`
`·7· ·Deposition of DR. KENNETH ZEGER, Conducted Virtually,
`
`·8· ·before Tammy Moon, California Certified Shorthand
`
`·9· ·Reporter 13184, Registered Merit Reporter, and Certified
`
`10· ·Realtime Reporter.
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0002
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
`
`·2
`
`·3· ·SHEPPARD, MULLIN, RICHTER & HAMPTON
`· · ·Attorneys for Plaintiff
`·4· · · · ·379 Lytton Avenue
`· · · · · ·Palo Alto, California 94301
`·5· ·BY:· ·CHRIS PONDER, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·WENDY CHEUNG, ESQ.
`·6
`
`·7
`
`·8· ·LOWENSTEIN & WEATHERWAX
`· · ·Attorneys for Defendant
`·9· · · · ·1880 Century Park East
`· · · · · ·Los Angeles, California 90067
`10· ·BY:· ·PATRICK MALONEY, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·BRIDGET SMITH, ESQ.
`11
`
`12· ·ALSO PRESENT:· LI GUO, SHEPPARD MULLIN RICHTER & HAMPTON
`· · ·INTERN
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0003
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 4
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXAMINATION
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · DR. KENNETH ZEGER
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · ·Tuesday, March 23, 2021
`
`·4· · · · · · ·Tammy Moon CSR No. 13184, RPR, CRR
`
`·5· · · · · · · · ·WITNESS:· DR. KENNETH ZEGER
`
`·6
`
`·7· ·EXAMINATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·8· ·MR. PONDER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7
`
`·9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0004
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · DR. KENNETH ZEGER
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · ·Tuesday, March 23, 2021
`
`·4· · · · · · ·Tammy Moon CSR No. 13184, RPR, CRR
`
`·5
`
`Page 5
`
`·6· ·MARKED· · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·7· ·Exhibit 1009· · U.S. Patent No. 7,873,706· · · · · · 245
`
`·8
`
`·9
`
`10· · · · · · ·QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE· · ·LINE
`
`12
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · INFORMATION REQUESTED
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE· · ·LINE
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0005
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
`
`Page 6
`
`·2· ·between the attorneys for the respective parties herein,
`
`·3· ·that filing and sealing be and the same are hereby
`
`·4· ·waived.
`
`·5· · · · · · IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that all
`
`·6· ·objections, except as to the form of the question, shall
`
`·7· ·be reserved to the time of the trial.
`
`·8· · · · · · IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that the
`
`·9· ·within deposition may be sworn to and signed before any
`
`10· ·officer authorized to administer an oath, with the same
`
`11· ·force and effect as if signed and sworn to before the
`
`12· ·Court.
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0006
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·- oOo -
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · DR. KENNETH ZEGER,
`
`Page 7
`
`·3· · · · · · · · called as a witness, having been duly
`
`·4· · · · · · · · sworn, testified as follows:
`
`·5· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`·6· · · · · · MR. PONDER:· For the record, I'm Chris Ponder,
`
`·7· ·and I am with Sheppard, Mullin, Richter & Hampton and
`
`·8· ·represent Netflix and Hulu, the petitioners.· With me
`
`·9· ·today I have two colleagues from my office, Wendy Cheung
`
`10· ·-- and we have a law student intern that's just
`
`11· ·observing the proceedings.
`
`12· · · · · · Mr. Maloney, do you want to enter your
`
`13· ·appearances?
`
`14· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Yes.· I'm Patrick Maloney, patent
`
`15· ·owner's counsel, representing DivX.· And with me is my
`
`16· ·colleague Bridget Smith.
`
`17· · · · · · MR. PONDER:· Great.
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`19· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`20· ·Q.· · · ·Good morning, Dr. Zeger.
`
`21· ·A.· · · ·Good morning.
`
`22· ·Q.· · · ·Do I understand that you have been retained to
`
`23· ·provide your opinions on the patent owner's response?
`
`24· ·A.· · · ·I have been retained to provide opinions on
`
`25· ·various things.· I specifically rebut the reports and
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0007
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 8
`·1· ·opinions of Dr. Reader and also petition in these two
`
`·2· ·IPRs.
`
`·3· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· And just to be clear, the IPRs that you
`
`·4· ·are referring to, do you understand that we are
`
`·5· ·discussing today U.S. Patent No. 9,270,720 and
`
`·6· ·U.S. Patent No. 998,515 with the inventor Braness?
`
`·7· ·A.· · · ·I didn't verify those numbers, but the last
`
`·8· ·three digits were correct, the 720 and the 515.· Do you
`
`·9· ·want me to verify the entire numbers?
`
`10· ·Q.· · · ·I think that's fine.· I think -- I think it's
`
`11· ·clear what patents we're talking about.
`
`12· ·A.· · · ·It is.
`
`13· ·Q.· · · ·And do you agree, sir, that the '720 and '515
`
`14· ·patents are related patents?
`
`15· ·A.· · · ·I believe the '515 is a continuation of the
`
`16· ·'720.
`
`17· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· And are there any differences -- putting
`
`18· ·aside the claims and the recitation of related
`
`19· ·applications, are there any differences between the '720
`
`20· ·and '515 patents that you are aware of?
`
`21· ·A.· · · ·I believe the patent specifications are
`
`22· ·substantially the same.
`
`23· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· When were you retained for this matter?
`
`24· ·A.· · · ·I don't actually remember the date, but couple
`
`25· ·months before I submitted my declaration.
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0008
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· Did you see the patent owner's
`
`Page 9
`
`·2· ·preliminary responses filed in this matter?
`
`·3· ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·4· ·Q.· · · ·Did you see the patent owner preliminary
`
`·5· ·responses before they were filed in this matter?
`
`·6· ·A.· · · ·I don't recall.· I may have.· I -- I don't
`
`·7· ·think so, though.
`
`·8· ·Q.· · · ·Did you speak to anyone other than the patent
`
`·9· ·owner's attorneys at Lowenstein & Weatherwax regarding
`
`10· ·these two patents?
`
`11· ·A.· · · ·No, I did not.
`
`12· ·Q.· · · ·So you didn't speak to the first named
`
`13· ·inventor, Mr. Braness?
`
`14· ·A.· · · ·I've never spoken to him in my life, as far as
`
`15· ·I know.
`
`16· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· Have you ever spoken to Evan Wallin,
`
`17· ·another named inventor?
`
`18· ·A.· · · ·Same answer.· I don't think I've ever spoken to
`
`19· ·them.
`
`20· ·Q.· · · ·And last one, did you ever speak to Ederson
`
`21· ·Ferreira?
`
`22· ·A.· · · ·Not that I know of.
`
`23· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· How much time have you spent reviewing
`
`24· ·the '515 and '720 patents?
`
`25· ·A.· · · ·You know, I spent time reviewing them in
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0009
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·various contexts in terms of writing declarations,
`
`Page 10
`
`·2· ·forming opinions, things like that.· It's hard to
`
`·3· ·quantify exactly, but I would say on the order of tens
`
`·4· ·of hours.
`
`·5· ·Q.· · · ·Do you say you've spent enough time reviewing
`
`·6· ·and analyzing the patents to have a complete
`
`·7· ·understanding of the claims of the '515 and the '720
`
`·8· ·patent that are at issue?
`
`·9· ·A.· · · ·When you say complete understanding, I
`
`10· ·certainly have enough understanding for the purposes of
`
`11· ·these IPRs that I gave opinions on.· There may be other
`
`12· ·issues that did not arrive -- arise during these IPRs
`
`13· ·for which, you know, I didn't direct my attention
`
`14· ·towards.
`
`15· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· How much time did you spend reviewing
`
`16· ·the Pyle reference?
`
`17· ·A.· · · ·Well, I've read through it several times.
`
`18· ·Again, it's hard to quantify the exact amount of time,
`
`19· ·but certainly many hours.· I could say that.
`
`20· ·Q.· · · ·How many hours have you spent reviewing the
`
`21· ·Lewis reference?
`
`22· ·A.· · · ·It's probably the same answer for all these
`
`23· ·references -- I spent, you know, many hours -- but I
`
`24· ·don't know exactly because I was going back and forth
`
`25· ·and reading pieces at a time.· And I read the whole
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0010
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·thing and form opinions and look again.
`
`Page 11
`
`·2· · · · · · So in terms of Pyle and Lewis, you know, it's
`
`·3· ·really hard to give an estimate.· But certainly in the
`
`·4· ·order of hours.
`
`·5· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· And let me -- let me ask you because --
`
`·6· ·you mentioned Lewis, but what about the Marusi
`
`·7· ·reference?· Did you spend time reviewing that reference?
`
`·8· ·A.· · · ·Yeah.· Same answer as the other ones: on the
`
`·9· ·order of hours.
`
`10· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· Did you spend more time reviewing any of
`
`11· ·the references other -- than the others?· Like, do you
`
`12· ·think you spent more time reviewing Pyle versus Lewis
`
`13· ·versus Marusi?
`
`14· ·A.· · · ·It's really hard to quantify.· I mean, I'd say
`
`15· ·it's very unlikely I spent the exact amount of time down
`
`16· ·to the second on all of them, but I can't really say
`
`17· ·which was more or less.· They're all in the same
`
`18· ·ballpark, I would say.
`
`19· ·Q.· · · ·Can you quantify how much time you spent
`
`20· ·reviewing the petitions and declarations by Dr. Reader
`
`21· ·in this proceeding?
`
`22· ·A.· · · ·Again, that was many hours, and I don't really
`
`23· ·-- no, I didn't keep individual time checks and all
`
`24· ·these things.· The petition in the -- Dr. Reader's
`
`25· ·declarations definitely took many hours, though.
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0011
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 12
`·1· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· So how much time would you say you've
`
`·2· ·spent in total working on this matter as far as
`
`·3· ·reviewing materials and preparing -- preparing your
`
`·4· ·opinions and working on the declaration?
`
`·5· ·A.· · · ·So is your question excluding any hours?
`
`·6· ·Because you enumerate a few items.
`
`·7· ·Q.· · · ·I'm excluding the amount of time you spent
`
`·8· ·preparing for this deposition.
`
`·9· ·A.· · · ·Preparing in the sense of actually writing the
`
`10· ·-- oh, do you mean, like, just reviewing the few days?
`
`11· ·Q.· · · ·Exactly.· But let me ask it a little
`
`12· ·differently:· How much time did you spend on this matter
`
`13· ·before your declarations were filed with the patent
`
`14· ·owner response?
`
`15· ·A.· · · ·Again, I don't know the exact number, but that
`
`16· ·would be several or many tens of hours.
`
`17· ·Q.· · · ·Do you think it would be somewhere between 50
`
`18· ·and a hundred hours or less than that?· Several is kind
`
`19· ·of a large range.
`
`20· ·A.· · · ·It could be.· You know, I just don't know. I
`
`21· ·don't remember off the top of my head.· That was months
`
`22· ·ago, but it -- it could very well be hundreds -- a
`
`23· ·hundred hours or more, yeah.
`
`24· ·Q.· · · ·How much time did you spend preparing for this
`
`25· ·deposition in the last two weeks?
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0012
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·A.· · · ·Well, in the last two weeks, I spent
`
`Page 13
`
`·2· ·considerable time reading through the various documents,
`
`·3· ·reviewing all the materials.· So that itself is tens of
`
`·4· ·hours.· I don't think that was a hundred hours, but it
`
`·5· ·was tens of hours at least.
`
`·6· ·Q.· · · ·Did you write your declarations in this matter?
`
`·7· ·A.· · · ·Well, I authored all the opinions in them and
`
`·8· ·-- is that what you're after or --
`
`·9· ·Q.· · · ·Yeah.· I guess let me ask it a different way:
`
`10· ·Did you -- did you author the opinions in your
`
`11· ·declarations?
`
`12· ·A.· · · ·I did.
`
`13· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· Did you prepare the first draft of the
`
`14· ·declarations?
`
`15· ·A.· · · ·What I did was I discussed with counsel on the
`
`16· ·phone and Zoom my opinions and expressed them.· And then
`
`17· ·in terms of the actual typing, if that's what you are
`
`18· ·getting at, that was a mixed process.
`
`19· · · · · · But I asked them to type the -- the bulk of the
`
`20· ·initial thing just to -- because I'm slow at doing that.
`
`21· ·But I told them -- and then I told them, you know, my
`
`22· ·opinions.· And then I would go through and edit after
`
`23· ·the fact, after those typings were made.
`
`24· ·Q.· · · ·Are there any portions of your declaration that
`
`25· ·were supplied to you by counsel?
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0013
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 14
`·1· ·A.· · · ·I think there's a legal section if you want me
`
`·2· ·to check.· Let's see.
`
`·3· ·Q.· · · ·Sure.
`
`·4· ·A.· · · ·I could do that.
`
`·5· ·Q.· · · ·I believe your legal section, if you are -- if
`
`·6· ·you are looking at the --
`
`·7· ·A.· · · ·I'm looking at '720 right now.
`
`·8· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· Good.· Probably starting on page 11?
`
`·9· ·A.· · · ·Yeah.· Right.· So that's -- yeah.· Let me go
`
`10· ·there.· Claim construction.
`
`11· ·Q.· · · ·Sorry.· Page 10.· Starts on the page before.
`
`12· ·A.· · · ·Yeah.· By the way, just to clarify some things,
`
`13· ·for some reason my declaration does not actually have
`
`14· ·page numbers on it, but I'm -- so if we refer to that,
`
`15· ·it would be helpful to talk about the PDF page file, I
`
`16· ·guess.· Do you know what I'm saying?
`
`17· ·Q.· · · ·Sure.· So the paper version you are looking at
`
`18· ·doesn't have --
`
`19· ·A.· · · ·No.· I'm sorry.· I'm looking at the online one.
`
`20· ·The paper one may have it.· Let me check that.
`
`21· ·Q.· · · ·I mean, the page numbers are kind of small
`
`22· ·there, and I put it up on the screen for you so you can
`
`23· ·see it.· It's under the exhibit stamp.
`
`24· ·A.· · · ·Oh, I see.· I see.· Okay.· Yeah.· Right.
`
`25· · · · · · So -- okay.· I can do that, yeah, but I usually
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0014
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 15
`·1· ·refer to paragraph numbers.· But, nevertheless, my --
`
`·2· ·starting at my paragraph 13 in the '720 declaration,
`
`·3· ·that section on claim construction was explained to me
`
`·4· ·by counsel.
`
`·5· · · · · · And then the next -- going through paragraphs
`
`·6· ·14, 15, 16, 17 on obviousness, that was also legal
`
`·7· ·understandings conveyed to me by counsel.· So I don't
`
`·8· ·know if there's more in here, but at least those were
`
`·9· ·not my original ideas.
`
`10· ·Q.· · · ·Do you understand that you were -- did you
`
`11· ·understand your assignment to include opining on the
`
`12· ·obviousness or nonobviousness of the claims of the '515
`
`13· ·and '720 patents?
`
`14· ·A.· · · ·The --
`
`15· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.
`
`16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· My -- my task was to examine the
`
`17· ·opinions of Dr. Reader regarding obviousness or
`
`18· ·nonobviousness as well as the arguments given in the
`
`19· ·petition and to decide that -- whether or not I agree or
`
`20· ·disagree with the various opinions and arguments about
`
`21· ·obviousness.
`
`22· · · · · · So I would word it that way: that my task was
`
`23· ·to give my technical opinions about whether I disagree
`
`24· ·or agree with the obviousness-related opinions of
`
`25· ·Dr. Reader and the arguments in the petition.
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0015
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`·2· ·Q.· · · ·So in doing -- strike that.
`
`Page 16
`
`·3· · · · · · In doing your analysis, you were not reviewing
`
`·4· ·the prior art to reach your own conclusion on whether
`
`·5· ·the claims are obvious or nonobvious, correct?
`
`·6· ·A.· · · ·Well, first let me say I haven't -- in
`
`·7· ·everything I've done, I haven't seen any reason why the
`
`·8· ·claims are -- are, indeed, obvious.· That being said,
`
`·9· ·that wasn't my specific task.
`
`10· · · · · · My task was just to, as I said before, analyze
`
`11· ·the other opinions.· And my opinions came out to be that
`
`12· ·I disagreed with Dr. Reader about obviousness and I
`
`13· ·disagreed with the arguments in the petition.
`
`14· · · · · · But I didn't independently form opinions about
`
`15· ·obviousness or nonobviousness other than rebutting
`
`16· ·theirs and not having any other evidence at all showing
`
`17· ·that the claims are, indeed, obvious.
`
`18· ·Q.· · · ·How would you describe your expertise as a
`
`19· ·technical expert?
`
`20· ·A.· · · ·Well, I have a broad background in many
`
`21· ·different subtopics of electrical and computer
`
`22· ·engineering.· I've gained a lot of experience in
`
`23· ·academia as I have been a professor for 31 years.
`
`24· · · · · · And I've worked in industry.· I've consulted.
`
`25· ·I've worked for the government, the DoD.· And I've
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0016
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 17
`·1· ·gained a lot of experience in many subareas involving
`
`·2· ·things like image and video coding, compression, general
`
`·3· ·communications.· It includes many subareas.
`
`·4· · · · · · MR. PONDER:· Actually, if I could ask the court
`
`·5· ·reporter -- I don't believe I received a link for the
`
`·6· ·real time.· Is -- can you send me --
`
`·7· · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Sure.
`
`·8· · · · · · (Brief pause.)
`
`·9· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`10· ·Q.· · · ·Do you consider yourself an expert in data
`
`11· ·compression?
`
`12· ·A.· · · ·That's certainly one topic that I am, yes.
`
`13· ·Q.· · · ·Are you an expert in digital rights management?
`
`14· ·A.· · · ·That's also within one of the subtopics of my
`
`15· ·expertise, yes.
`
`16· ·Q.· · · ·Do you have expertise in data storage?
`
`17· ·A.· · · ·Yeah.· That's -- these are all kind of related.
`
`18· ·These are just subtopics of my broad expertise that's --
`
`19· ·yes, also.
`
`20· ·Q.· · · ·Are databases a distinct area of expertise, or
`
`21· ·would you include that in data storage?
`
`22· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.
`
`23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, these are all very -- very
`
`24· ·related subtopics with, you know, small changes between
`
`25· ·them.· Database is -- certainly are a form of data
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0017
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·storage, and you have specific retrieval types of
`
`Page 18
`
`·2· ·techniques.
`
`·3· · · · · · But, you know, you could probably list a
`
`·4· ·hundred subtopics within my broad expertise and then try
`
`·5· ·to identify each one as a different area if you wanted,
`
`·6· ·but they're all kind of within the broad area of
`
`·7· ·expertise.
`
`·8· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`·9· ·Q.· · · ·What are -- what are -- what is a database?
`
`10· ·A.· · · ·Depends what context you are talking about.
`
`11· ·But roughly speaking, it's a -- well, an example would
`
`12· ·be a storage of information that is organized in a way
`
`13· ·that you can access it based on certain queries.· That's
`
`14· ·one example.
`
`15· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· So does the database have to support --
`
`16· ·strike that.
`
`17· · · · · · So is it necessary for a system to support
`
`18· ·queries for it to be considered a database?
`
`19· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.
`
`20· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· When you say -- are you talking
`
`21· ·about outside of the context of these patents just in
`
`22· ·general or in some specific context?
`
`23· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`24· ·Q.· · · ·We're talking in general.· So when we're
`
`25· ·talking about technology in general, I'm looking for
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0018
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 19
`·1· ·your understanding of the technology generally in 2011.
`
`·2· ·A.· · · ·So, generally, most databases I'm familiar with
`
`·3· ·are -- have some sort of way of accessing information
`
`·4· ·through querying.· And I'm trying to think if there's
`
`·5· ·some kind of pathological case where you would not do
`
`·6· ·that.
`
`·7· · · · · · But generally, if you tell a person of ordinary
`
`·8· ·skill in the art of the technology and these IPRs -- you
`
`·9· ·know, use the word database, they would think of a
`
`10· ·system where you have storage and you have retrieval
`
`11· ·based on query.· That's the -- that's the usual type of
`
`12· ·idea that would pop in their head.
`
`13· ·Q.· · · ·Do you believe that the claims of the patents
`
`14· ·here require the use of a database?
`
`15· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.
`
`16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· First of all, you said -- there's
`
`17· ·a couple pluralities in there I've got to clear up.· You
`
`18· ·said these patents -- so there's two patents, I believe,
`
`19· ·referring to '515 and '720.
`
`20· · · · · · And you didn't really specify which claims, and
`
`21· ·you didn't really specify where the database occurs.· If
`
`22· ·you could narrow it down, it would be easier for me to
`
`23· ·accurately answer.
`
`24· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`25· ·Q.· · · ·Sure.· I'm just wondering if you believe any
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0019
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 20
`·1· ·challenge claim of the '515 or '720 patents requires the
`
`·2· ·use of a database to -- to practice the claims.
`
`·3· ·A.· · · ·I don't recall offering an opinion about that.
`
`·4· ·I don't remember if that came up in one of the things I
`
`·5· ·analyzed.· I don't recall offhand.· Is there some
`
`·6· ·opinion in my declaration you could point to that would
`
`·7· ·be relevant here, or is this just out the context of my
`
`·8· ·declaration?
`
`·9· ·Q.· · · ·This is just out context of your declaration
`
`10· ·and the claims.
`
`11· ·A.· · · ·So if I didn't offer an opinion in the
`
`12· ·declarations about that question, then I probably didn't
`
`13· ·study that question.· I don't recall studying that
`
`14· ·question right now unless I'm forgetting something.
`
`15· · · · · · So I would really have to go back and think
`
`16· ·about it and read through the patents and see exactly
`
`17· ·what you are asking.· So I don't -- just sitting here
`
`18· ·right now, I can't give you a quick answer.
`
`19· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· So sitting here right now, you don't
`
`20· ·know whether or not the challenge claims require the use
`
`21· ·of a database?
`
`22· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Scope.
`
`23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I think it's the same
`
`24· ·answer.· I just -- it wasn't an issue that I recall
`
`25· ·coming up unless I'm forgetting something.· So I
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0020
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·wouldn't be able to answer that right now; that's
`
`Page 21
`
`·2· ·correct.
`
`·3· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`·4· ·Q.· · · ·Are there other ways to store data other than
`
`·5· ·in a database?
`
`·6· ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·7· ·Q.· · · ·What are -- what are common ways to store data
`
`·8· ·that are not in a database?
`
`·9· ·A.· · · ·Well, to the extent that a database requires
`
`10· ·querying in some organized fashion -- you know, data
`
`11· ·could be stored, for example, on -- on a CD-ROM in -- or
`
`12· ·even just in local -- local registers or RAM in some
`
`13· ·unorganized fashion that would not be considered a
`
`14· ·database.
`
`15· ·Q.· · · ·Can you store data on a magnetic or solid-state
`
`16· ·hard disk drive in a format that is not a database?
`
`17· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Scope.· Form.
`
`18· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So I -- that was not an issue
`
`19· ·that came up here, and I don't think I offered an
`
`20· ·opinion about that.· I don't really know why that's
`
`21· ·relevant to any of the opinions I offered.· And if you
`
`22· ·are asking it in the context of these patents or outside
`
`23· ·the context, that -- that's another variation on the
`
`24· ·question.
`
`25· · · · · · And if it was in the context of the patents, I
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0021
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 22
`·1· ·would really have to go back and look at how database
`
`·2· ·plays a role in the patents and whether I can answer yes
`
`·3· ·or no because it really matters how the word is used.
`
`·4· ·And I don't recall having any opinions about that in my
`
`·5· ·report.
`
`·6· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`·7· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· Would a POSITA in 2011 know how to store
`
`·8· ·data on a magnetic or solid-state hard disk that does
`
`·9· ·not make use of a database?
`
`10· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`11· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· When you say knows how to store,
`
`12· ·could you clarify what you mean by that.
`
`13· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`14· ·Q.· · · ·Sure.· Were you a POSITA in 2011?
`
`15· ·A.· · · ·I certainly had at least those skills.
`
`16· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· Were you able to store data on a
`
`17· ·magnetic hard disk or solid-state hard disk in 2011
`
`18· ·without using a database?
`
`19· ·A.· · · ·Again, my same question holds.· When you say
`
`20· ·able to store, I really -- I think there's multiple
`
`21· ·interpretations of that phrase, able to.· So maybe you
`
`22· ·could clarify that.
`
`23· ·Q.· · · ·Was data stored in 2011 on hard disk drives in
`
`24· ·a format that did not use the database?
`
`25· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Scope.
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0022
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 23
`·1· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think that gets back to the
`
`·2· ·same question that I had trouble answering before
`
`·3· ·without further research because you are using language
`
`·4· ·that may be important in this particular IPR.· And I
`
`·5· ·would have to see exactly how the database is used in
`
`·6· ·that context, which didn't arise in my report.
`
`·7· · · · · · And so if we're talking completely outside of
`
`·8· ·the context of this -- these IPRs, you know, I'd really
`
`·9· ·need to know more details about your hypothetical to
`
`10· ·answer it.
`
`11· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`12· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· So you are an expert in computer
`
`13· ·science/electrical engineering, and you are telling me
`
`14· ·you are uncomfortable saying whether a person of
`
`15· ·ordinary skill in the art would have known in 2011 how
`
`16· ·to store data on a hard disk drive without using a
`
`17· ·database?
`
`18· ·A.· · · ·Well, that's -- that's a different question
`
`19· ·than you asked before.· You used the word able to, and
`
`20· ·now you are saying the phrase how to store.· So you are
`
`21· ·modifying the question a little bit.· And the issue is
`
`22· ·not whether or not I know whether somebody could do
`
`23· ·something; it's I don't really understand your question
`
`24· ·with specificity enough to give you an accurate answer.
`
`25· · · · · · If you could -- I think it's vague and there's
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0023
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·multiple interpretations.
`
`Page 24
`
`·2· ·Q.· · · ·So the word store was not something that a
`
`·3· ·POSITA would know what that means in 2011?
`
`·4· ·A.· · · ·Well --
`
`·5· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Scope.
`
`·6· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· Store could have
`
`·7· ·multiple interpretations also.· If you are just talking
`
`·8· ·about -- for example, you know, if I'm editing a file
`
`·9· ·and then I save that file to memory -- or save it to a
`
`10· ·hard drive or RAM, however you want to save it, that's
`
`11· ·certainly one form of storage.
`
`12· · · · · · But at the same time, before you even formally
`
`13· ·save it, it may also be stored in temporary cache.· It
`
`14· ·might be stored in other forms of buffering in local
`
`15· ·RAM.· It may be swapped out to hard drives.· There's all
`
`16· ·sorts of different storages going on there, at least
`
`17· ·four or five different types.· And you didn't really
`
`18· ·specify details about --
`
`19· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`20· ·Q.· · · ·Well, I asked you if you knew how to store --
`
`21· ·if a POSITA would know how to store data on a hard disk
`
`22· ·drive.· So maybe you could explain why you would need to
`
`23· ·know intermediate steps of storage to know whether data
`
`24· ·can be stored on a hard drive.
`
`25· ·A.· · · ·Well, when you say would a POSITA know how to
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0024
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 25
`·1· ·store data on a hard drive, one possibility might be
`
`·2· ·that a POSITA is using a software program such as a text
`
`·3· ·editor and then presses one or two keys and that invokes
`
`·4· ·software which then takes the data and ultimately stores
`
`·5· ·it on a hard drive.
`
`·6· · · · · · Or it might involve a POSITA making a hardware
`
`·7· ·system that stores data.· And that's much more
`
`·8· ·complicated.· It might be a firmware system.· It might
`
`·9· ·be, you know, done with assembly code.· It might be some
`
`10· ·-- maybe a POSITA doesn't actually do it but understands
`
`11· ·the theory of it.· So when you say knows how to store,
`
`12· ·there's many different variations of that.
`
`13· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· So is it fair to say that a POSITA in
`
`14· ·2011 know that there's many different ways to store
`
`15· ·data?
`
`16· ·A.· · · ·A POSITA completely outside the context of
`
`17· ·these patents would certainly understand the notions of
`
`18· ·storage of data, and that would include hard drives in
`
`19· ·various different ways and manners.
`
`20· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· And is one way to store data, at least
`
`21· ·by 2011 -- was to store files on a hard disk drive?
`
`22· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Scope.
`
`23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, again, I'm answering
`
`24· ·outside of the context of these IPRs because I don't
`
`25· ·know if there's some special language.· But just outside
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0025
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`Page 26
`·1· ·of these IPRs, storage and data on a hard drive that --
`
`·2· ·the concept would be certainly known in multiple ways by
`
`·3· ·a POSITA.
`
`·4· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`·5· ·Q.· · · ·Are there ways to store data that permits
`
`·6· ·querying that does not involve the use of a database?
`
`·7· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`·8· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, that's a question I would
`
`·9· ·have to think about a little bit because that goes to
`
`10· ·construing exactly what database means in the context of
`
`11· ·your question and whether it applies to these IPRs or
`
`12· ·just outside of these IPRs.· It's not something I formed
`
`13· ·an opinion about, and I think I would have to think
`
`14· ·about that more.
`
`15· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`16· ·Q.· · · ·Sir, what did a database refer to in 2011 to a
`
`17· ·POSITA?
`
`18· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`19· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't think my -- I offered an
`
`20· ·opinion construing what a database was to a POSITA in
`
`21· ·2011 or, for that matter, anytime.· I don't recall any
`
`22· ·construction about that in my report.
`
`23· · · · · · And construing things correctly in the context
`
`24· ·of patents and various other things, you know, takes
`
`25· ·some thought.· And I don't think I can just give you a
`
`Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC - Ex. 1010, Page 0026
`IPR2020-00648 (Netflix, Inc. and Hulu, LLC v. DivX, LLC)
`
`
`
`·1· ·quick answer right now.
`
`·2· · · · · · MR. PONDER:
`
`Page 27
`
`·3· ·Q.· · · ·Okay.· So you are not comfortable telling me
`
`·4· ·what the plain and ordinary meaning of database in 2011
`
`·5· ·to a POSITA is?
`
`·6· · · · · · MR. MALONEY:· Objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`·7· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I think to the extent that
`
`·8· ·it played a role in any opinions that I had, I think the
`
`·9· ·plain and ordinary meaning is just what it says:· It's
`
`10· ·plain and ordinary.· And it would be clear to a POSITA.
`
`11· ·So maybe you are asking me a different question that I
`
`12· ·don't understand
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
