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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MEDTRONIC, INC.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00678
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 7,774,069
`·8
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · H I G H L Y· ·C O N F I D E N T I A L
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY
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`12· · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · San Francisco, California
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`14· · · · · · · · · · Friday, February 25, 2021
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`15
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · · · REPORTED BY: Derek L. Hoagland
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CSR No. 13445
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · · JOB NO. 10078537
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`MEDTRONIC EXHIBIT 2008
`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. v. Medtronic, Inc.
`IPR2020-00712
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`Page 1 of 166
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MEDTRONIC, INC.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00712
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,738,148
`·8
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · H I G H L Y· ·C O N F I D E N T I A L
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY
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`12· · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · San Francisco, California
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`14· · · · · · · · · · Friday, February 25, 2021
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`15
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`17· · · · · · · · · REPORTED BY: Derek L. Hoagland
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · · · CSR No. 13445
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · · JOB NO. 10078537
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MEDTRONIC, INC.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00680
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,457,758
`·8
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · H I G H L Y· ·C O N F I D E N T I A L
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY
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`12· · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · San Francisco, California
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`14· · · · · · · · · · Friday, February 25, 2021
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`15
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · · · REPORTED BY: Derek L. Hoagland
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CSR No. 13445
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · · JOB NO. 10078537
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · ·MEDTRONIC, INC.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00678
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 7,774,069
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`·8
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`·9· · Deposition of RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D., taken before
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`10· · Derek L. Hoagland, a Certified Shorthand Reporter for
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`11· · the State of California, commencing at 9:14 a.m. PST,
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`12· · Friday, February 25, 2021, at Aptus Court Reporting, One
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`13· · American Plaza, 600 W Broadway #300, San Francisco,
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`14· · California, 92101.
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · ·MEDTRONIC, INC.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00712
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,738,148
`
`·8
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`·9· · Deposition of RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D., taken before
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`10· · Derek L. Hoagland, a Certified Shorthand Reporter for
`
`11· · the State of California, commencing at 9:14 a.m. PST,
`
`12· · Friday, February 25, 2021, at Aptus Court Reporting, One
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`13· · American Plaza, 600 W Broadway #300, San Francisco,
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`14· · California, 92101.
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · ·MEDTRONIC, INC.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-00680
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,457,758
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`·8
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`·9· · Deposition of RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D., taken before
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`10· · Derek L. Hoagland, a Certified Shorthand Reporter for
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`11· · the State of California, commencing at 9:14 a.m. PST,
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`12· · Friday, February 25, 2021, at Aptus Court Reporting, One
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`13· · American Plaza, 600 W Broadway #300, San Francisco,
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`14· · California, 92101.
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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`·1· · APPEARANCES:
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`·2
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·3· · COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER
`· · · (Appearing by videoteleconference)
`·4· · KILPATRICK TOWNSEND & STOCKTON, LLP
`· · · Two Embarcadero Center
`·5· · Suite 1900
`· · · San Francisco, California 94111
`·6· · BY:· A. JAMES ISBESTER, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·415.273.4335
`·7· · · · ·jisbester@kilpatricktownsend.com
`
`·8· · -- and --
`
`·9· · (Appearing by videoteleconference)
`· · · KILPATRICK TOWNSEND & STOCKTON, LLP
`10· · 1080 Marsh Road
`· · · Menlo Park, California 94025
`11· · BY:· MATTHEW J. MEYER, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·650.614.6414
`12· · · · ·mmeyer@kilpatricktownsend.com
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`13
`· · · COUNSEL FOR RESPONDENT
`14· · (Appearing by videoteleconference)
`· · · PAUL HASTING LLP
`15· · 2050 M Street NW
`· · · Washington, District of Columbia 20036
`16· · BY:· QUADEER A. AHMED, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·202.551.1905
`17· · · · ·quadeerahmed@paulhastings.com
`
`18· · -- and --
`
`19· · (Appearing by videoteleconference)
`· · · PAUL HASTING LLP
`20· · 71 South Wacker Drive
`· · · Chicago, Illinois 60606
`21· · BY:· JOHN A. COTIGUALA, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·312.499.6092
`22· · · · ·johncotiguala@paulhastings.com
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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· · WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· · RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D.
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`·4· · Examination by MR. ISBESTER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 9, 134
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`·5· · Examination by MR. AHMED· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 127
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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· · · · · · MR. ISBESTER:· Let's go on the record and ask
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`·3· · the court reporter to swear you in.· And if you don't
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`·4· · mind, I'll introduce myself then on the record, rather
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`·5· · than having to do it twice.
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`·6· · · · · · THE DEPONENT:· Of course.
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`·7· · · · · · (Whereupon, the deponent is
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`·8· · · · · · duly sworn by the court reporter.)
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · RICHARD T. MIHRAN, PH.D.,
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`10· · · · · · · · · having first been duly sworn,
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`11· · · · · · · was examined and testified as follows:
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`13· · BY MR. ISBESTER:
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`14· · Q.· · · Dr. Mihran -- first of all, let me make sure I'm
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`15· · getting the emphasis on the right syllable.· Is it
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`16· · Mihran or Mihran?
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`17· · A.· · · Mihran.
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`18· · Q.· · · Mihran.· Okay.· Thanks.
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`19· · · · · · My name is Jamie Isbester.· I am a partner with
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`20· · Kilpatrick Townsend.· We are representing Axonics in
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`21· · some petitions to review the validity of Medtronic
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`22· · patents, on which you have been asked to provide expert
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`23· · testimony.
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`24· · · · · · So it's good to meet you, and I will try to make
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`25· · today's efforts as quick and as painless as possible.
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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · You are familiar with the three declarations you
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`·2· · provided on behalf of Medtronic in Axonics' initiated
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`·3· · IPRs?
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`·4· · A.· · · I am, yes.
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`·5· · Q.· · · Okay.· And these three declarations are provided
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`·6· · in three different IPR proceedings, right?
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`·7· · A.· · · That is my understanding, yes.
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`·8· · Q.· · · And just for simplicity, if I need to
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`·9· · distinguish between the different IPR proceedings, can I
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`10· · refer to each proceeding by the last three digits of the
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`11· · patent in question in that proceeding?
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`12· · A.· · · Yes, that's fine.
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`13· · Q.· · · Okay.· And so if I am referring to the IPR of,
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`14· · for example, US Patent No. 7,774,069, I will ask you
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`15· · about the '069 proceeding, and perhaps specifically your
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`16· · declaration in that proceeding.· Does that work?
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`17· · A.· · · Absolutely.· That's fine.
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`18· · Q.· · · And in an effort to be as efficient as possible,
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`19· · we are consolidating, we are conducting all three
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`20· · depositions together in one.
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`21· · · · · · Would you agree with me that -- well, you're
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`22· · testifying under penalty of perjury, right?
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`23· · A.· · · Yes.· That's my understanding, yes.
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`24· · Q.· · · And that's not the -- this isn't the first time
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`25· · you've done that, right?
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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · A.· · · Correct.· I have done depositions before.
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`·2· · Q.· · · And if I ask you a question today with respect
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`·3· · to the '069 patent, about some factual matter relating,
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`·4· · for example, to the prior art, if I ask you that patent
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`·5· · with respect to the '758 patent -- sorry, if I ask you
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`·6· · that same question with the respect to the '758 patent,
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`·7· · you would give me the same answer, right?
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`·8· · A.· · · Well, it would depend on the nature of the
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`·9· · question, obviously, because the claims are different
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`10· · across the patents.
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`11· · · · · · So if the question is directed in the context of
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`12· · a claim limitation, the answer may be different.· With
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`13· · respect to the disclosure of the prior art references,
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`14· · then the answers would be the same in terms of what the
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`15· · prior art reference actually teaches or discloses.
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`16· · Q.· · · Okay.· Okay.· You've alluded to the fact already
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`17· · that you've provided testimony previously.· How many
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`18· · times do you think you've given a deposition?
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`19· · A.· · · I don't know, but I've -- I believe I did my
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`20· · first expert witness engagement back in the mid-1990s,
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`21· · so it's been a number of years.· So certainly more than
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`22· · ten depositions, I would say.
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`23· · Q.· · · You are familiar then with the procedure, right?
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`24· · A.· · · I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
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`25· · Q.· · · So you are familiar with the procedure?
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · A.· · · Yes, yes.
`
`·2· · Q.· · · I won't go into the whole -- the whole rules of
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`·3· · the road lecture, then.· I'd just like to caution you --
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`·4· · remind you that if you don't understand the question,
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`·5· · you are free to tell me you don't understand it and ask
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`·6· · me for clarification or to reword.· And if you don't
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`·7· · know the answer, you're free to simply tell me that you
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`·8· · don't know the answer.
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`·9· · · · · · You understand that, right?
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`10· · A.· · · I do understand that, yes.
`
`11· · Q.· · · And one final caution, because we're on
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`12· · videoconference, and, of course, that means certain
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`13· · delays and latencies, it's easy to talk over each other.
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`14· · · · · · I will try not to talk over your answers, but
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`15· · please also try not to talk over my questions or,
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`16· · perhaps, your counsel's objections.· Understood?
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`17· · A.· · · I will certainly grant you that same
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`18· · consideration, yes.
`
`19· · Q.· · · Okay.· You should have, either through an email
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`20· · I sent out this morning or from your own files, the
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`21· · declaration that you provided in the '069 -- the '069
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`22· · IPR proceeding.· It was Exhibit 2002 in the '069
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`23· · proceeding.· Do you have that?
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`24· · A.· · · I do, yes.
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`25· · Q.· · · Okay.· And on page 36, that's your signature,
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`·1· · right?
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`·2· · A.· · · Yes, it is.
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·3· · Q.· · · And similarly, in the '148 proceedings, your
`
`·4· · declaration was filed as Exhibit 2002, again?
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`·5· · A.· · · Yes, I have that, as well.
`
`·6· · Q.· · · Okay.· And that is -- that is your signature on
`
`·7· · page 34?
`
`·8· · A.· · · It is, yes.
`
`·9· · Q.· · · And finally, in the '758 IPR proceedings, you
`
`10· · also provided a declaration, Exhibit 2002.· And that's
`
`11· · your signature on page 42 of Exhibit 2002 in the '758
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`12· · IPR proceeding, right?
`
`13· · A.· · · Yes, it is.
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`14· · Q.· · · Dr. Mihran, do you have -- do you run a lab or
`
`15· · any kind of center that employs people other than your
`
`16· · undergraduate students at the university?
`
`17· · A.· · · I am currently what I would characterize as
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`18· · semi-retired.· So at one time, I did run a lab for many
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`19· · years at the university.· Currently, I am a professor
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`20· · adjunct, and I teach classes at the university, but am
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`21· · otherwise largely retired from the university.
`
`22· · Q.· · · Okay.· Do you still publish?
`
`23· · A.· · · Not currently, no.
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`24· · Q.· · · For how long did you -- or during what years did
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`25· · you run a lab at the university?
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · A.· · · Well, I joined the faculty in 1990.· And I would
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`·2· · say something on the order of 15 years, I had a lab with
`
`·3· · students.
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`·4· · Q.· · · So when you say 15 years, was that from 1990 to
`
`·5· · 2005?
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`·6· · A.· · · Approximately, yes.
`
`·7· · Q.· · · And can you tell me, during an average year, how
`
`·8· · many people other than yourselves were engaged in a
`
`·9· · professional manner?· I mean, to exclude administrative
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`10· · assistants and that sort of thing.· How many people were
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`11· · engaged in a professional manner with your lab?
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`12· · A.· · · Well, it varied depending on the time period. I
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`13· · was a research professor for much of that period of
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`14· · time, and the role -- in the role of a research
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`15· · professor, that allowed me to -- quite a bit of latitude
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`16· · in terms of additional research and work in labs outside
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`17· · of the academic setting.
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`18· · · · · · So I had labs with some -- a startup company I
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`19· · was involved in at that time.· And I was also doing
`
`20· · professional consulting with various companies at that
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`21· · time that may have involved some of their people, as
`
`22· · well.
`
`23· · · · · · In terms of the university lab, there was some
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`24· · overlap between some of the research we were doing at
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`25· · the university and research that was being done in
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · conjunction with outside commercial entities or sort of
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`·2· · joint research projects.
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`·3· · · · · · But in those days, it was probably on the order
`
`·4· · of five to ten students that I was associated with or
`
`·5· · guiding at that time.
`
`·6· · Q.· · · Now, were those five to ten students typically
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`·7· · graduate students?
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`·8· · A.· · · Typically; not exclusively, but typically.
`
`·9· · · · · · And, also, some of them were students who had
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`10· · completed one or more degrees that were then, perhaps,
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`11· · working with me in the commercial lab.
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`12· · Q.· · · Okay.· So the people working with you in the
`
`13· · lab, some of them were there as part of their studies,
`
`14· · and some of them were there because it was their job.
`
`15· · Is that right?
`
`16· · A.· · · Well, as I think I tried to indicate, I was
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`17· · working in more than one lab.· It wasn't simply a lab
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`18· · exclusively at the university.· Some work was conducted
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`19· · at the university.· Some work was conducted outside of
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`20· · the university.· And some of those students were playing
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`21· · roles in both environments.
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`22· · Q.· · · Okay.· Let me see if I can focus us, then, just
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`23· · on the university lab.
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`24· · · · · · Within the university lab, did you have
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`25· · colleagues who were employed by the university to work
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · with you in the lab?
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`·2· · A.· · · Certainly, there were colleagues who were
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`·3· · professors in the department that I was collaborating
`
`·4· · with on some of the research in my lab.
`
`·5· · · · · · There were also graduate students who, I think,
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`·6· · technically, would probably be considered employees, in
`
`·7· · the sense that they received a stipend, which I believe
`
`·8· · is reported on a W-2, for the graduate students.
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`·9· · · · · · So it was both students, as well as, of course,
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`10· · collaborating with some of the other faculty members in
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`11· · my department.
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`12· · Q.· · · Other than students, who might have been
`
`13· · receiving a stipend, and collaborating faculty members,
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`14· · were there any other employees of the university working
`
`15· · with you in your university lab?
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`16· · A.· · · I understand that question to exclude any
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`17· · support staff; is that --
`
`18· · Q.· · · Yes.
`
`19· · A.· · · Yeah.
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`20· · Q.· · · Excluding administrative staff, yeah.
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`21· · A.· · · Again, just to clarify, I don't know whether, in
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`22· · your mind, administrative staff would include people
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`23· · that were supporting some of the technical facilities,
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`24· · but maybe not engaged in the research itself.
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`25· · Q.· · · Like somebody running a machine shop or
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · something like that?
`
`·2· · A.· · · Or supporting instrumentation or something of
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`·3· · that sort.
`
`·4· · Q.· · · Yeah.
`
`·5· · A.· · · Certainly, occasionally there would be people
`
`·6· · interacting at that level, as well.· But, generally
`
`·7· · speaking, in terms of academic or research work, it was
`
`·8· · colleagues and graduate students, and occasionally
`
`·9· · undergraduate research assistants, who we have -- had a
`
`10· · program, and I think we still do, at the university for
`
`11· · engaging some of the more exceptional undergraduate
`
`12· · students in research activities, to give them some
`
`13· · exposure to the research lab environment.
`
`14· · Q.· · · Okay.· So if we leave aside the lab techs as
`
`15· · being support or administrative, everybody else you were
`
`16· · working with in the lab, who wasn't an employee of the
`
`17· · university, was either a professor or a student in some
`
`18· · capacity?
`
`19· · A.· · · Again, limiting that answer to the lab that was
`
`20· · in the university, on the university campus, that's
`
`21· · correct.
`
`22· · · · · · However, at the same time, I was also active in
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`23· · outside labs associated with some collaborative
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`24· · research, either with companies or a startup company
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`25· · that I was involved in, as well.
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · Q.· · · Okay.· And --
`
`·2· · A.· · · I'm sorry, I was just trying to clarify that I
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`·3· · was dividing my time between both -- I guess I would
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`·4· · call it commercial lab work or development work, as well
`
`·5· · as academic during --
`
`·6· · Q.· · · And that -- that's how I understood it.· And I
`
`·7· · was wanting to turn now to labs and work you did outside
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`·8· · universities.
`
`·9· · · · · · And my apologies.· Give me just a second here.
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`10· · I am trying to get my video working.
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`11· · · · · · Dr. Mihran, you may notice at times I appear to
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`12· · be looking away, and that is because my screen with your
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`13· · face on it is actually offset from the camera.· I am
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`14· · not, you know, monitoring my stock portfolio or playing
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`15· · online bingo (inaudible).
`
`16· · A.· · · Understood.
`
`17· · Q.· · · Good.· So outside the university, you also
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`18· · participated in labs that were working on developing
`
`19· · various products, right?
`
`20· · A.· · · Certainly, either, to some extent, in labs, or,
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`21· · in other cases, simply consulting, in which I did work
`
`22· · in my own facilities, not necessarily at the university.
`
`23· · Q.· · · Okay.· In your own facilities, did you have
`
`24· · employees, or were you a single -- a solo operation?
`
`25· · A.· · · Again, just to clarify the distinctions here,
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · when I reference my own facility, that would be in the
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`·2· · context of consulting work, where I was retained as a
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`·3· · consultant for particular projects in association with
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`·4· · various companies.· I had some of my own personal lab
`
`·5· · facilities, where I could do certain development work,
`
`·6· · lab instrumentation.
`
`·7· · · · · · And, generally speaking, that would be work that
`
`·8· · I would do on my own.· Occasionally, those projects
`
`·9· · would involve some additional support, typically from
`
`10· · perhaps a graduate student of mine.· But for the most
`
`11· · part, those would be activities that I would conduct as
`
`12· · an independent consultant.
`
`13· · Q.· · · Okay.· And then you also had -- I think you
`
`14· · mentioned a startup company and roles in other
`
`15· · companies.
`
`16· · A.· · · Uh-huh.
`
`17· · Q.· · · And that's different from the consulting and
`
`18· · it's different from your university work, right?
`
`19· · A.· · · You said different from consulting in your
`
`20· · question.· I think you -- I think I heard.
`
`21· · · · · · So, certainly, in many cases was distinct and
`
`22· · completely separate from my university work at that
`
`23· · time.· In some cases, there were joint collaborations.
`
`24· · And in terms of consulting, some of those projects were
`
`25· · simply me consulting for a company on a particular
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · problem or topic.
`
`·2· · · · · · So it's not easy for me to --
`
`·3· · Q.· · · Okay.
`
`·4· · A.· · · -- make a simple broad statement of that sort.
`
`·5· · Q.· · · Let me ask you to focus on the startup company
`
`·6· · you had.· What was the area of that startup company?
`
`·7· · A.· · · Well, I was initially -- it was not a company
`
`·8· · that I started up personally.· There were some founders.
`
`·9· · And the company was directed towards agricultural
`
`10· · management systems, large scale agricultural management
`
`11· · systems.· They had some interest in developing a radio
`
`12· · frequency wireless data acquisition system to monitor
`
`13· · large animal herds, such as cattle herds, dairy cattle
`
`14· · herds; and, also had a division -- or a group that was
`
`15· · developing immunoassay tests, so tests for detecting the
`
`16· · presence of analytes and test media for diagnostic
`
`17· · purposes and health management.
`
`18· · · · · · I was originally hired as a consultant to help
`
`19· · develop the RF wireless aspects of the system, and then
`
`20· · eventually took on a role as interim director of
`
`21· · research and development, and had focused more on some
`
`22· · of the development of the censor technology.
`
`23· · Q.· · · Okay.· Tell me what years this was.
`
`24· · A.· · · This was early '90s, so probably '92, '93, '94,
`
`25· · somewhere in that timeframe.
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · Q.· · · When you were the director of R&D, did you have
`
`·2· · engineering staff reporting to you?
`
`·3· · A.· · · I did.
`
`·4· · Q.· · · How many?
`
`·5· · A.· · · I think it was on the order of eight or ten at
`
`·6· · that time.
`
`·7· · Q.· · · Did you do any hiring for engineering staff who
`
`·8· · would report to you?
`
`·9· · A.· · · I would say essentially all of them I hired
`
`10· · personally, if not all; most, if not all.
`
`11· · Q.· · · Did you develop criteria for the positions that
`
`12· · you hired for?
`
`13· · A.· · · I think, in any decision process, there are, at
`
`14· · minimum, internal criteria for assessing people, so yes.
`
`15· · I didn't formalize it in a document or anything of that
`
`16· · sort, but certainly I have internal criteria by which I
`
`17· · assess people's capabilities and talents, as well as
`
`18· · weaknesses.
`
`19· · Q.· · · And then when you were the director of R&D, were
`
`20· · you involved in the development of the immunoassay tests
`
`21· · at that time?
`
`22· · A.· · · Yes --
`
`23· · Q.· · · Now, were you hiring people for both the -- I'm
`
`24· · sorry.· I just spoke over you.· Were you finished with
`
`25· · your answer?
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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`Highly Confidential -Highly Confidential -
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · A.· · · Yes, I was directing both development of the
`
`·2· · immunoassay -- and just to clarify the record, because I
`
`·3· · am not sure what I heard you speak.· Immuno,
`
`·4· · i-m-m-u-n-o, is the prefix.· So these are
`
`·5· · immunological-based tests, not unlike some of the
`
`·6· · testing that -- you know, rapid testing that's used
`
`·7· · today with COVID virus and things of that sort.
`
`·8· · · · · · So I was involved in both the development of the
`
`·9· · immunoassay chemistries, as well as the instrumentation
`
`10· · that was used to assess the immunoassay results, and,
`
`11· · separately, in parallel, overseeing the development of
`
`12· · the wireless radio frequency data acquisition system
`
`13· · that was utilized for monitoring the herds, the animals.
`
`14· · Q.· · · When you were looking to hire people to assist
`
`15· · in the R&D as engineers or scientists, did you expect
`
`16· · them to have a bachelor's degree?
`
`17· · A.· · · Generally, sure.· I think all of them did.
`
`18· · Q.· · · Did you expect them to have a master's degree --
`
`19· · · · · · (Simultaneous speakers.)
`
`20· · · · · · THE DEPONENT:· And I'm sorry, I just -- I
`
`21· · apologize.· I didn't mean to talk over you.
`
`22· · · · · · I just wanted to point out that, certainly, from
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`23· · the engineering point of view, I expected them to have
`
`24· · an undergraduate degree.· But there were also laboratory
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`25· · technicians who were performing certain roles in the lab
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`Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.Richard T. Mihran, Ph.D.
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`Attorneys' Eyes OnlyAttorneys' Eyes Only
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`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. vs.
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`Medtronic, Inc.Medtronic, Inc.
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`·1· · that may not have a -- may not have had an undergraduate
`
`·2· · degree.· I don't recall specifically.
`
`·3· · BY MR. ISBESTER:
`
`·4· · Q.· · · Okay.· Was having a graduate degree a
`
`·5· · requirement for any of the engineering roles?
`
`·6· · A.· · · I wouldn't say that it was a requirement.· It
`
`·7· · was certainly a consideration.
`
`·8· · Q.· · · And how many --
`
`·9· · A.· · · (Inaudible.)· I'm sorry.· It depends
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