·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · ____________________
`·3· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · ________________________________________
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`·5· · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
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`Page 1
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · MEDTRONIC, INC.,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`10· · · · · · · · · ____________________
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2020-00712
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`12· · · · · · · · · · Patent 8,738,148
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`13· · · · · · · · · ____________________
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`14· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2020-00680
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`15· · · · · · · · · · Patent 8,457,758
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`16· · · · · · · · · ____________________
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`17· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2020-00678
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`18· · · · · · · · · · Patent 7,774,069
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`19· · · · ________________________________________
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`20· · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF DR. DORIN PANESCU
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`21· · · · · · · Thursday, November 19, 2020
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`22
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`23· ·Reported by:
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`24· ·SUSAN ASHE, RMR, CRR, CSR
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`25· ·Job No.:· 186174
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`Page 1 of 100
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`MEDTRONIC EXHIBIT 2004
`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. v. Medtronic, Inc.
`IPR2020-00712
`
`
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`·2· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · ____________________
`·3· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · ________________________________________
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`·5· · · · ·AXONICS MODULATION TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
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`Page 1
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · MEDTRONIC, INC.,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`10· · · · · · · · · ____________________
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2020-00712
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · Patent 8,738,148
`
`13· · · · · · · · · ____________________
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`14· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2020-00680
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · Patent 8,457,758
`
`16· · · · · · · · · ____________________
`
`17· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2020-00678
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · Patent 7,774,069
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`19· · · · ________________________________________
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`20· · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF DR. DORIN PANESCU
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`21· · · · · · · Thursday, November 19, 2020
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`22
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`23· ·Reported by:
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`24· ·SUSAN ASHE, RMR, CRR, CSR
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`25· ·Job No.:· 186174
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`Page 1 of 100
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`MEDTRONIC EXHIBIT 2004
`Axonics Modulation Technologies, Inc. v. Medtronic, Inc.
`IPR2020-00712
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`Page 2
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`·8· · · · · · ·Videoconference deposition of DR. DORIN
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`·9· ·PANESCU, taken remotely on behalf of the Patent
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`10· ·Owner, beginning at 12:09 p.m., on Thursday,
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`11· ·November 19, 2020, via videoconference, before
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`12· ·Susan Ashe, CSR, RMR, CRR.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· ·APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
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`·3· · · · On behalf of the Petitioner and the Witness
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`Page 3
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`·4· · · · · · ·KILPATRICK TOWNSEND & STOCKTON
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`·5· · · · · · ·BY:· A. JAMES ISBESTER, ESQ.
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`·6· · · · · · ·BY:· BABAK SANI, ESQ.
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`·7· · · · · · ·Two Embarcadero Center
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`·8· · · · · · ·San Francisco, California· 94111
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`·9· · · · · · ·(Via Videoconference)
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· ·APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL (Continued):
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`·3· · · · On behalf of the Patent Owner
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`·4· · · · · · ·PAUL HASTINGS
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`·5· · · · · · ·BY:· QUADEER AHMED, ESQ.
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`·6· · · · · · ·BY:· CHETAN BANSAL, ESQ.
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`·7· · · · · · ·BY:· JOHN COTIGUALA, ESQ.
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`·8· · · · · · ·2050 M Street, Northwest
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`·9· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20036
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`10· · · · · · ·(Via Videoconference)
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`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · CONTENTS
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`·3· ·THE WITNESS
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`·4· ·Dr. Dorin Panescu
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`·5
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`·6· · ·BY MR. AHMED· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7
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`·7· · ·BY MR. ISBESTER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·94
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`·8
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · · EXHIBITS
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`11· ·Medtronic
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`12· ·Exhibit No.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Marked
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`13· ·Exhibit 2001· One page with Figure 4
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`14· · · · · · · · ·Annotations· · · · · · · · · · · ·42
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`15
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · ·PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
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`18· ·Medtronic· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Introduced
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`19· ·Exhibit 1003· Dr. Dorin Panescu
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`20· · · · · · · · ·Declaration for
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`21· · · · · · · · ·'069 Patent· · · · · · · · · · · ·13
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`22· ·Exhibit 1004· Dr. Dorin Panescu
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`23· · · · · · · · ·Curriculum Vitae· · · · · · · · · 16
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`24· ·Exhibit 1005· Schulman Reference
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`25· · · · · · · · ·to '069 Patent· · · · · · · · · · 46
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`Page 5 of 100
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`Page 6
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`·2· · · · ·PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS (Continued)
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`·3· ·Medtronic· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Introduced
`
`·4· ·Exhibit 1006· Fischell Article
`
`·5· · · · · · · · ·in '069 Patent· · · · · · · · · · 91
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`·6· ·Exhibit 1007· Baumann Reference
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`·7· · · · · · · · ·in '069 Patent· · · · · · · · · · 28
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · · · · · THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2020;
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · ·12:08 P.M.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
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`·5· · · · · · ·All counsel present stipulate
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`·6· · · · that the witness shall be sworn remotely
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`·7· · · · · · · · ·by the court reporter.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·*· ·*· ·*
`
`·9· ·Whereupon,
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`10· · · · · · · · · ·DR. DORIN PANESCU
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`11· · · ·having been first duly sworn, was examined
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`12· · · · · · · ·and testified as follows:
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`
`14· ·BY MR. AHMED:
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · ·Good morning, Dr. Panescu.
`
`16· · · · ·A· · ·I unmuted myself.· Good morning.
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`17· · · · ·Q· · ·How are you doing?
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`18· · · · ·A· · ·Doing good.· How are you doing?
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`19· · · · ·Q· · ·I'm doing well.
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`20· · · · · · · ·Thank you for joining us.
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`21· · · · · · · ·For the court reporter's benefit, let
`
`22· ·me introduce myself.
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`23· · · · · · · ·My name is Quadeer Ahmed.· I am from
`
`24· ·the law firm of Paul Hastings, representing
`
`25· ·Medtronic, Inc. today.
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`Page 7 of 100
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`Page 8
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`·2· · · · · · · ·Dr. Panescu, can you please state and
`
`·3· ·spell your full name for the record.
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`·4· · · · ·A· · ·Dorin Panescu.
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`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·Have you been deposed before?
`
`·6· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· For the court's
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`·8· · · · ·benefit, shall we state our appearances?
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`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· Sure, Jamie.
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`10· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· So who else was on the
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`11· · · · ·line for Paul Hastings?
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`12· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· So on the line with us, we
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`13· · · · ·have my colleagues, Chetan Bansal and John
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`14· · · · ·Cotiguala from Paul Hastings.
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· And this is James
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`16· · · · ·Isbester of Kilpatrick Townsend on behalf of
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`17· · · · ·Petitioner Axonics, and with me on the line
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`18· · · · ·is my colleague Babak Sani.
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`19· ·BY MR. AHMED:
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · ·Dr. Panescu, can you please state and
`
`21· ·spell your full name for the record.
`
`22· · · · ·A· · ·Dorin Panescu, spelled D-o-r-i-n; last
`
`23· ·name, P-a-n-e-s-c-u.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · ·Have you been deposed before?
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`25· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
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`Page 8 of 100
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`Page 9
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · · ·Q· · ·How many times?
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`·3· · · · ·A· · ·Approximately -- somewhere between
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`·4· ·five and ten times.
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`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·So before we begin, I just want to
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`·6· ·remind you of some basic ground rules.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·I'll be asking you questions during
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`·8· ·the deposition.· Your counsel may object, but you
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`·9· ·must answer unless your counsel instructs you not
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`10· ·to answer.
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`11· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
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`12· · · · ·A· · ·Yes, I do.
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`13· · · · ·Q· · ·If a question is unclear, please let
`
`14· ·me know so that I can rephrase it, if necessary;
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`15· ·otherwise I will assume that you understood my
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`16· ·question.
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`17· · · · · · · ·Is that okay?
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`18· · · · ·A· · ·Sounds good.
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`19· · · · ·Q· · ·And our conversation will be
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`20· ·transcribed by the court reporter.· And so it's
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`21· ·important that you speak your answers for obvious
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`22· ·reasons.· The court reporter cannot transcribe
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`23· ·gestures.
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`24· · · · · · · ·Again, for the benefit of the court
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`25· ·reporter, let's make sure not to speak over each
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`Page 9 of 100
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`Page 10
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· ·other.
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`·3· · · · · · · ·Is that agreed?
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`·4· · · · ·A· · ·Sounds good.
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`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· And over the course of your
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`·6· ·deposition, we will be taking breaks.· But if you
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`·7· ·need one, just let me know.
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`·8· · · · · · · ·If a question is pending, I would just
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`·9· ·request that you answer that question before
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`10· ·requesting a break.
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`11· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
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`12· · · · ·Q· · ·Great.· Do you have any questions
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`13· ·before we begin?
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`14· · · · ·A· · ·I do not.
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`15· · · · ·Q· · ·You understand you're under oath
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`16· ·today.· Correct?
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`17· · · · ·A· · ·I do.
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`18· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· Is there any reason why you
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`19· ·cannot testify truthfully today?
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`20· · · · ·A· · ·Not that I'm aware.
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`21· · · · ·Q· · ·Are you on any medications?
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`22· · · · ·A· · ·I am not.
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`23· · · · ·Q· · ·Did you prepare for the deposition
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`24· ·today, Dr. Panescu?
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`25· · · · ·A· · ·Yes, I did.
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`Page 10 of 100
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · · ·Q· · ·How many hours did you spend?
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`·3· · · · ·A· · ·I need to check.· I haven't added them
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`·4· ·up, but more than -- somewhere between five and
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`·5· ·fifteen hours.
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`·6· · · · ·Q· · ·When did you begin preparing for the
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`Page 11
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`·7· ·deposition?
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`·8· · · · ·A· · ·On Sunday.
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`·9· · · · ·Q· · ·And who did you prepare with?
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`10· · · · ·A· · ·Mostly myself, but I did consult with
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`11· ·Babak and Jamie on a few matters.
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`12· · · · ·Q· · ·Did you meet with anyone else in
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`13· ·connection with the deposition?
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`14· · · · ·A· · ·No.
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`15· · · · ·Q· · ·Do you recall submitting a declaration
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`16· ·for U.S. Patent No. 7,774,069?
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`17· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
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`18· · · · ·Q· · ·How many hours did you spend preparing
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`19· ·that declaration?
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`20· · · · ·A· · ·I cannot recall off the top of my head
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`21· ·because that was some time ago, several months
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`22· ·ago; but it was a fair amount of hours, probably
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`23· ·more than 20.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· Was it more than 40 hours?
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`25· · · · ·A· · ·Might have been.
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`Page 11 of 100
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`Page 12
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`·2· · · · · · · ·I would need to go look, my invoices.
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`·3· ·It could be more than 40.
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`·4· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· And Counsel, are you
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`·5· · · · ·referring to all three declarations or just
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`·6· · · · ·the one, in requesting time estimates?
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`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· The question specifies the
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`·8· · · · ·declaration for U.S. Patent No. 7,774,069.
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`·9· · · · ·A· · ·Sorry.· I thought you were referring
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`10· ·to all of them.
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`11· · · · · · · ·I didn't keep very good tab per
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`12· ·declaration.· So I calculated the overall amount
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`13· ·of hours spent on all of them.
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`14· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· So --
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`15· · · · ·A· · ·I would need to go and research.
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`16· · · · · · · ·So if you need a precise number, I
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`17· ·need to go back, look at my invoices for that
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`18· ·time, because it's been several good month.
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`19· · · · ·Q· · ·So the record is clear, let's
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`20· ·establish which declaration we are talking about.
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`21· · · · · · · ·So how many declarations are you
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`22· ·referring to?
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`23· · · · ·A· · ·Three.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · ·Three; okay.
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`25· · · · · · · ·And can you specify each one, with the
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`Page 12 of 100
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· ·patent number?
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · (Pause.)
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`·4· · · · ·Q· · ·Or Dr. Panescu, I can make it easier
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`Page 13
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`·5· ·for you --
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`·6· · · · ·A· · ·7,774,069.
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`·7· · · · ·Q· · ·That's the first one?
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`·8· · · · ·A· · ·8,738,148.
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`·9· · · · · · · ·8,457,758.
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`10· · · · ·Q· · ·Is it okay if we take one declaration
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`11· ·at a time and -- Dr. Panescu, is it okay if we
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`12· ·take it one declaration at a time?
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`13· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Object to the form.
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`14· · · · ·A· · ·Yeah.
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`15· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Medtronic Exhibit 1003,
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`16· · · · ·previously marked, was presented to the
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`17· · · · ·witness.)
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`18· ·BY MR. AHMED:
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`19· · · · ·Q· · ·So your declaration for U.S. Patent
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`20· ·No. 7,774,069, is that the declaration that you
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`21· ·signed and submitted as Exhibit 1003?
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`22· · · · ·A· · ·I don't have the exhibit number.
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`23· ·That's the one that I signed on....
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`24· · · · · · · ·...on March 2, 2020.
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`25· · · · ·Q· · ·Moving forward, is it okay if we refer
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`Page 13 of 100
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· ·to that declaration as the "'069 declaration"?
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`·3· · · · ·A· · ·Fine by me.
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`·4· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· And the next declaration that
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`·5· ·you mentioned was for U.S. Patent No. 8,738,148.
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`Page 14
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`·6· ·Correct?
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`·7· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
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`·8· · · · ·Q· · ·So moving forward, is it okay if we
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`·9· ·refer to that declaration as the "'148
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`10· ·declaration"?
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`11· · · · ·A· · ·Sounds good.
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`12· · · · ·Q· · ·And the third declaration that you
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`13· ·mentioned was for U.S. Patent No. 8,457,758.
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`14· ·Correct?
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`15· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
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`16· · · · ·Q· · ·And moving forward, is it okay if we
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`17· ·refer to that one as the "'758 declaration"?
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`18· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
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`19· · · · ·Q· · ·And similarly, for the patents that
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`20· ·we're discussing today, U.S. Patent No. 7,774,069
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`21· ·is the first one -- is it okay if we refer to that
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`22· ·as the "'069 patent"?
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`23· · · · ·A· · ·Yes, it is.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· And for U.S. Patent No.
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`25· ·8,738,148, is it okay if we refer to that is the
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`Page 14 of 100
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`Page 15
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· ·"'148 patent"?
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`·3· · · · ·A· · ·Sounds good.
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`·4· · · · ·Q· · ·And finally, for the last patent,
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`·5· ·8,457,758, is it okay if we refer to it as the
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`·6· ·"'758 patent"?
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`·7· · · · ·A· · ·Sounds good.
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`·8· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· I would like to confirm,
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`·9· · · · ·Jamie, that the Medtronic counsel -- that
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`10· · · · ·this testimony today, Dr. Panescu's
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`11· · · · ·testimony is applicable to IPR Nos.
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`12· · · · ·2020-00678, IPR 2020-00680, and IPR
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`13· · · · ·2020-00712.
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`14· · · · · · · ·Is that agreed?
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Yes, that's agreed.
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`16· ·BY MR. AHMED:
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`17· · · · ·Q· · ·Dr. Panescu, were you familiar with
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`18· ·the '069 patent before you were retained in this
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`19· ·matter?
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`20· · · · ·A· · ·I was not.
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`21· · · · ·Q· · ·Were you familiar with the '758 patent
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`22· ·before you were retained in this matter?
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`23· · · · ·A· · ·I was not.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · ·And were you familiar with the '148
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`25· ·patent before you were retained in this matter?
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`Page 15 of 100
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`Page 16
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · · ·A· · ·No.
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`·3· · · · ·Q· · ·Have you been in contact with the
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`·4· ·inventors of the '069 patent?
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`·5· · · · ·A· · ·No.
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`·6· · · · ·Q· · ·Have you been in contact with the
`
`·7· ·inventors of the '758 patent?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · ·Have you been in contact with the
`
`10· ·inventors of the '148 patent?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Medtronic Exhibit 1004,
`
`13· · · · ·previously marked, was presented to the
`
`14· · · · ·witness.)
`
`15· ·BY MR. AHMED:
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · ·Dr. Panescu, I have some questions
`
`17· ·about your background.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·Would you please turn to Exhibit 1004
`
`19· ·for the '069 patent.
`
`20· · · · ·A· · ·I'm not sure if I have that exhibit.
`
`21· · · · ·Q· · ·It is your CV.
`
`22· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · ·Do you have it?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · ·I have my CV, yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · ·Just to confirm that we're looking at
`
`Page 16 of 100
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· ·the right document, does it have a label on the
`
`Page 17
`
`·3· ·bottom right that says "Exhibit 1004"?
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · ·No, I don't have that.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· Can we take a break?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I apologize.· Just give
`
`·7· · · · ·me one sec....
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·Yeah, I don't think I have that.
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· Let's take a quick
`
`10· · · · ·five-minute break.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·(Discussion off the record.)
`
`12· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the deposition recessed
`
`13· · · · ·for lunch at 12:23 p.m.)
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · · -· - -
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
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`Page 17 of 100
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`Page 18
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · · ·A F T E R N O O N· · S E S S I O N
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · (1:01 p.m.)
`
`·4· ·BY MR. AHMED:
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·Dr. Panescu, can you please turn to
`
`·6· ·Exhibit 1004 for the '069 patent.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·That should be your CV.
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · ·Is that the same CV you submitted for
`
`10· ·the '758 patent?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · ·Yes, it is.
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · ·And is it the same CV that you
`
`13· ·submitted for the '148 patent?
`
`14· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · ·You're currently employed by
`
`16· ·BIOTRONIK.· Correct?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · ·How long have you been employed by
`
`19· ·BIOTRONIK?
`
`20· · · · ·A· · ·For about ten months.
`
`21· · · · ·Q· · ·And what is your current role at
`
`22· ·BIOTRONIK?
`
`23· · · · ·A· · ·Chief scientific officer.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · ·Did you have any prior roles at
`
`25· ·BIOTRONIK?
`
`Page 18 of 100
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`
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`Page 19
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · ·What are your responsibilities in that
`
`·4· ·role as a chief scientific officer?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · ·Responsible for a new cardiac ablation
`
`·6· ·platform development.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q· · ·Could you please repeat your answer.
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·Development of a new cardiac ablation
`
`·9· ·platform.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · ·I have some questions, Dr. Panescu,
`
`11· ·regarding rechargeable, inductively coupled,
`
`12· ·implantable medical devices.
`
`13· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · ·Are there any benefits of such
`
`15· ·systems -- that is, rechargeable, inductively
`
`16· ·coupled, implantable medical devices?
`
`17· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Object to the form.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · ·Do you understand my question,
`
`19· ·Dr. Panescu?
`
`20· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.· The main benefit is it avoids
`
`21· ·explantation of the generator either too
`
`22· ·frequently or too soon, because it allows the
`
`23· ·battery to be recharged by an external mechanism.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · ·Are there any other benefits?
`
`25· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Again, object to the
`
`Page 19 of 100
`
`
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`Page 20
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · ·form.
`
`·3· · · · ·A· · ·That would be the main benefit I can
`
`·4· ·think of right now.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·Sure, there may be some others -- such
`
`·6· ·as cost, for example.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q· · ·What do you mean by that?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·I mean that the cost of the device, if
`
`·9· ·it needs to stay in the patient without being
`
`10· ·removed for a longer period of time might be
`
`11· ·higher than the cost of the device that can be
`
`12· ·recharged.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·(Court reporter request for clarity.)
`
`14· · · · ·A· · ·I was thinking that the cost of a
`
`15· ·device that is not rechargeable, therefore it must
`
`16· ·stay in the patient for a long period of time.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·That cost might be higher than the
`
`18· ·cost of a system that can be recharged.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · ·Have you worked on rechargeable,
`
`20· ·inductively coupled, implantable medical devices?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.· We had such devices at St. Jude
`
`22· ·Medical.
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · ·When were you at St. Jude Medical?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · ·Between 2005 and 2008.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · ·And you developed -- let me withdraw
`
`Page 20 of 100
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`Page 21
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· ·that question.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·You were involved in the development
`
`·4· ·of inductively coupled, rechargeable, implantable
`
`·5· ·medical devices during your time at St. Jude?
`
`·6· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q· · ·What was your role at St. Jude?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·I was directing a group of hardware
`
`·9· ·development engineers.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · ·How large was the team that you were
`
`11· ·leading?
`
`12· · · · ·A· · ·Somewhere between ten to twenty
`
`13· ·people.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · ·What aspects of the inductively
`
`15· ·coupled, implantable medical device were you
`
`16· ·working on during the time -- during your time at
`
`17· ·St. Jude's?
`
`18· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Dr. Panescu, because
`
`19· · · · ·obviously this involves work that may be
`
`20· · · · ·proprietary to a third party, please keep
`
`21· · · · ·your answer -- please exclude from your
`
`22· · · · ·answer any specifics that would potentially
`
`23· · · · ·affect St. Jude's confidential information.
`
`24· · · · ·A· · ·Yeah, I was about to say that a lot of
`
`25· ·that is proprietary and confidential.
`
`Page 21 of 100
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`Page 22
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·But it was related to wake-up
`
`·3· ·mechanisms, devices that can be recharged for
`
`·4· ·treatment of heart failure and so on.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·Did you design the recharge control
`
`·6· ·aspect of those systems at St. Jude?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · ·Were there other engineers at St. Jude
`
`·9· ·that designed that aspect of the system?
`
`10· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · ·So you do not have any personal
`
`12· ·experience designing the recharge control aspects
`
`13· ·of rechargeable, inductively coupled, implantable
`
`14· ·medical devices.· Correct?
`
`15· · · · ·A· · ·It depends what you mean by "personal
`
`16· ·experience."
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Obviously, since folks in my group or
`
`18· ·related groups are doing that and I was aware
`
`19· ·during the designs, I had exposure to that; but I
`
`20· ·have not personally designed them.
`
`21· · · · ·Q· · ·Were you consulted by the engineers
`
`22· ·that were designing those recharge control aspects
`
`23· ·of the system on that design?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · ·Can you describe that consultation?
`
`Page 22 of 100
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· I'm sorry.· Could you
`
`·3· · · · ·repeat that question.· I just didn't hear
`
`Page 23
`
`·4· · · · ·it.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·Sure.· Can you describe the
`
`·6· ·consultation that you just referenced,
`
`·7· ·Dr. Panescu?
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Subject of course to
`
`·9· · · · ·the confidentiality concerns I previously
`
`10· · · · ·stated, Dr. Panescu.
`
`11· · · · ·A· · ·Typical design reviews and providing
`
`12· ·feedback to document.
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · ·So you provided feedback to the design
`
`14· ·proposals related to the recharge control aspects
`
`15· ·of the inductively coupled, implantable medical
`
`16· ·device?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · ·Now, was that feedback related to the
`
`19· ·recharge control design or to the parts of the
`
`20· ·system that you were responsible for developing?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · ·Both.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· Do you have any other
`
`23· ·experience, other than St. Jude -- other than your
`
`24· ·time at St. Jude where you were involved with
`
`25· ·rechargeable, inductively coupled, implantable
`
`Page 23 of 100
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`Page 24
`
`·2· ·medical devices?
`
`·3· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q· · ·And just so I understand your earlier
`
`·5· ·testimony correctly, you personally did not design
`
`·6· ·the recharge control aspects of those inductively
`
`·7· ·coupled, implantable medical devices at St. Jude?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·That's correct.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · ·Do you recall how many engineers were
`
`10· ·involved in designing these recharge control
`
`11· ·aspects of the implantable medical device at
`
`12· ·St. Jude's?
`
`13· · · · ·A· · ·Under five.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · ·Dr. Panescu, can we turn to your '069
`
`15· ·declaration?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`17· · · · ·Q· · ·So on pages 1 to 3 of the '069
`
`18· ·declaration, in paragraphs 4 to 7 you list your
`
`19· ·background and qualifications.· Correct?
`
`20· · · · ·A· · ·Say again the numbers.
`
`21· · · · ·Q· · ·Pages 1 to 3, paragraphs 4 to 7 of the
`
`22· ·'069 declaration.
`
`23· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · ·And the background and qualifications
`
`25· ·that are listed there are all accurate.· Correct?
`
`Page 24 of 100
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`Page 25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · ·Let's turn to page 3 of your
`
`·4· ·declaration.
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · ·You list the materials you considered
`
`·7· ·on pages 3 to 5 [sic].· Correct?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · ·Did you review any other materials
`
`10· ·that are not listed when forming your opinions
`
`11· ·expressed in the '069 declaration?
`
`12· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · ·Could you please turn to the '758
`
`14· ·declaration.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· So Dr. Panescu, my hope
`
`16· · · · ·is that my email to you with the ZIP file of
`
`17· · · · ·all the '758 exhibits has come in.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· I'm at '758
`
`19· · · · ·declaration.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·I have not -- I received your email,
`
`21· · · · ·Jamie.· I haven't yet downloaded it.
`
`22· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Okay.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Let me --
`
`24· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· Could we take a two-minute
`
`25· · · · ·break.
`
`Page 25 of 100
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`Page 26
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`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Okay.· Why don't we do
`
`·3· · · · ·that.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·And Dr. Panescu, if you could simply
`
`·5· · · · ·download the three ZIP files I sent you.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·And that way, when counsel wants to
`
`·7· · · · ·refer to a specific exhibit number of a
`
`·8· · · · ·specific IPR proceeding, we might be able to
`
`·9· · · · ·have a clearer record.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a recess was taken from
`
`11· · · · ·1:18 p.m. until 1:44 p.m.)
`
`12· ·BY MR. AHMED:
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · ·So Dr. Panescu, could you please turn
`
`14· ·to the '758 declaration.
`
`15· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · ·Let's turn to page 1 of the '758
`
`17· ·declaration.
`
`18· · · · ·A· · ·Page 1?
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · ·Correct.
`
`20· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`21· · · · ·Q· · ·You list your background and
`
`22· ·qualifications starting at page 1 and ending at
`
`23· ·page 3.· Correct?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · ·And those are all accurate?
`
`Page 26 of 100
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· Can you please turn to page 3
`
`Page 27
`
`·4· ·of your declaration.
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · ·You list the materials you considered
`
`·7· ·on pages 3 to 4.· Correct?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · ·Did you review any other materials
`
`10· ·that are not listed when forming your opinions
`
`11· ·that are expressed in the '758 declaration?
`
`12· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · ·Could you please turn to the '148
`
`14· ·declaration.
`
`15· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · ·If you turn to page 1, again you see
`
`17· ·that you listed your background and qualifications
`
`18· ·there.· Correct?
`
`19· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· And those are all accurate?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · ·Correct.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· And starting at page 3 of your
`
`23· ·declaration, you list the materials you
`
`24· ·considered.· Correct?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`Page 27 of 100
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`Page 28
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· Did you review any other
`
`·3· ·materials that are not listed there when forming
`
`·4· ·your opinions expressed in the '148 declaration?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Medtronic Exhibit 1007,
`
`·7· · · · ·previously marked, was presented to the
`
`·8· · · · ·witness.)
`
`·9· ·BY MR. AHMED:
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · ·Dr. Panescu, can you please turn to
`
`11· ·Exhibit 1007 in the '069 patent IPR.
`
`12· · · · ·A· · ·1007?
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · ·That's correct.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· This is the Baumann
`
`15· · · · ·reference.
`
`16· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.· I have it.
`
`17· · · · ·Q· · ·Do you recognize the exhibit,
`
`18· ·Dr. Panescu?
`
`19· · · · ·A· · ·That is the patent.· Right?
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · ·Which patent is it?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · ·The Baumann patent.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· This is the same Baumann patent
`
`23· ·that you also referenced in the '758 patent IPR.
`
`24· ·Correct?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`Page 28 of 100
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· Have you analyzed Baumann
`
`Page 29
`
`·3· ·thoroughly?
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·Is there any aspect of Baumann that is
`
`·6· ·unclear to you?
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Object to the form.
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · ·I hope not.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · ·I need a yes or a no.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Do you understand my question,
`
`11· ·Dr. Panescu:· Is there any aspect of Baumann that
`
`12· ·is unclear to you?
`
`13· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· I object to the form.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·How can you answer a question like
`
`15· · · · ·that?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · ·I think the question is too vague.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·What do you mean by "any aspect"?
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · ·You testified --
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. AHMED:· Let me withdraw that
`
`20· · · · ·question first.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·But first of all, Jamie, I think you
`
`22· · · · ·know this already, but there's no speaking
`
`23· · · · ·objections in these depositions.
`
`24· · · · · · · ·So if you can stick to the objections
`
`25· · · · ·that are allowed under the rules, we would
`
`Page 29 of 100
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`Page 30
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · ·appreciate it.
`
`·3· ·BY MR. AHMED:
`
`·4· · · · ·Q· · ·So Dr. Panescu, you testified earlier
`
`·5· ·that you analyzed Baumann thoroughly.· Correct?
`
`·6· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q· · ·Is there anything in Baumann's
`
`·8· ·disclosure that doesn't make sense to you from a
`
`·9· ·technical perspective?
`
`10· · · · ·A· · ·No.
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · ·So Baumann's disclosure is clear to
`
`12· ·you?
`
`13· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · ·Could you please turn to Figure 4 of
`
`15· ·Baumann.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·Because we're on video, Dr. Panescu, I
`
`17· ·cannot tell if you're at Figure 4.· So if you can
`
`18· ·let me know when you're at Figure 4 of Baumann.
`
`19· · · · ·A· · ·Okay.· I'm on Figure 4.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · ·Figure 4 shows the charging
`
`21· ·characteristics of a battery according to a
`
`22· ·charging current -- let me repeat the question.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·Figure 4 shows charging
`
`24· ·characteristics of a battery according to a
`
`25· ·charging technique disclosed by Baumann.· Correct?
`
`Page 30 of 100
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`Page 31
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · ·Well, it is one aspect that he
`
`·3· ·discusses.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q· · ·Just so I understand your answer
`
`·5· ·correctly, one aspect of what?
`
`·6· · · · ·A· · ·Of charging a battery that's being
`
`·7· ·disclosed in Column 6, where he says that
`
`·8· ·corresponding small values of the current by
`
`·9· ·quasi-continuous behaviors of the curves of the
`
`10· ·charging current IL and the voltage UZ can be
`
`11· ·achieved.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·So, it's one possibility of charging a
`
`13· ·battery.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · ·And so the record is clear,
`
`15· ·Dr. Panescu, can you please specify the line
`
`16· ·numbers in Column 6 that you are reading from or
`
`17· ·referring to.
`
`18· · · · ·A· · ·Lines 1 through 5.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· What does the vertical broken
`
`20· ·line in Figure 4 signify?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · ·Say that again.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · ·What does the vertical broken line in
`
`23· ·Figure 4 signify?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · ·That's the time point when the voltage
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`25· ·of the battery reaches the target voltage.
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`Page 31 of 100
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`Page 32
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· "Time" point.
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`·3· · · · ·A· · ·That is the time point when the
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`·4· ·battery voltage, during charges -- charging,
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`·5· ·reaches the cell voltage, the target cell voltage
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`·6· ·UZ.
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`·7· · · · ·Q· · ·Once the target cell voltage reaches
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`·8· ·UZ, does it change?
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`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Object to the form.
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`10· · · · ·A· · ·Say that again.
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · ·Once the battery voltage reaches the
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`12· ·target cell voltage UZ, does the battery voltage
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`13· ·change?
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`14· · · · ·A· · ·But not in Figure 4.
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`15· · · · ·Q· · ·Baumann discloses in Figure 4 that the
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`16· ·battery voltage, once it reaches the target
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`17· ·voltage UZ, doesn't change.· Correct?
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`18· · · · ·A· · ·Yes; in Figure 4.
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`19· · · · ·Q· · ·How many charging phases does Baumann
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`20· ·disclose?
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`21· · · · ·A· · ·In the patent, he discloses two.
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`22· · · · ·Q· · ·What are they?
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`23· · · · ·A· · ·The fast charge and then the steady
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`24· ·state charge.
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`25· · · · · · · ·For example, in Figure 3, as you reach
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`Page 32 of 100
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`Page 33
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`·2· ·the target voltage UG, you have the high current.
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`·3· ·Then to maintain that voltage, the current can be
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`·4· ·decreased.
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`·5· · · · ·Q· · ·Isn't that what Figure 4 shows as
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`·6· ·well?
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`·7· · · · ·A· · ·In a different manner.
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`·8· · · · ·Q· · ·Could you please explain what you mean
`
`·9· ·by "in a different manner."
`
`10· · · · ·A· · ·Well, Figure 3 shows the step-by-step
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`11· ·decrementing current; whereas in Figure 4, the
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`12· ·changes are more quasi-continuous.
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`13· · · · ·Q· · ·I just want to understand your
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`14· ·understanding of Baumann's disclosure regarding
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`15· ·the two charging phases.
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`16· · · · · · · ·The two charging phases that Baumann
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`17· ·discloses are shown in Figure 4.· Correct?
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`18· · · · · · · ·MR. ISBESTER:· Object to the form.
`
`19· · · · ·A· · ·Well, they are shown in Figure 4, but
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`20· ·they are also shown in other figures.
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`21· · · · ·Q· · ·And Baumann describes the change in
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`22· ·the charge current over time as rIL/rt.· Correct?
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`23· · · · ·A· · ·Yes.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · ·Is it okay if we refer to this change
`
`25· ·in charge current in Baumann as the derivative of
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`Page 33 of 100
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`Page 34
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PANESCU
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`·2· ·the charge current?
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`·3· · · · ·A· · ·Not necessarily.
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`·4· · · · ·Q· · ·Okay.· Why not?
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`·5· · · · ·A· · ·Because the derivative, in order to
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`·6· ·exist, implies a continuous function; whereas
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`·7· ·Figure 3 is not a continuous function.
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`·8· · · · · · · ·So your definition will probably apply
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`·9· ·to Figure 4, but not to Figure 3.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · ·Oh,
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