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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` SLAYBACK PHARMA LLC,
` Petitioner,
` vs.
` SUMITOMO DAINIPPON PHARMA CO., LTD.,
` Patent Owner.
`
` Case No. IPR2020-01053
` Patent No. 9,815,827
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. STEPHEN M. STAHL
`Taken at the Offices of Dr. Stephen Stahl
` On Thursday, May 6, 2021
` At 8:02 a.m.
`
`Reported by: Margie L. Carlson
` C.C.R. No. 287
`
`Exhibit 1054
`Slayback v. Sumitomo
`IPR2020-1053
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
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`212-490-3430
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` SLAYBACK PHARMA LLC,
` Petitioner,
` vs.
` SUMITOMO DAINIPPON PHARMA CO., LTD.,
` Patent Owner.
`
` Case No. IPR2020-01053
` Patent No. 9,815,827
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. STEPHEN M. STAHL
`Taken at the Offices of Dr. Stephen Stahl
` On Thursday, May 6, 2021
` At 8:02 a.m.
`
`Reported by: Margie L. Carlson
` C.C.R. No. 287
`
`Exhibit 1054
`Slayback v. Sumitomo
`IPR2020-1053
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
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`Page 2
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`APPEARANCES:
` For the Petitioner: LOUIS H. WEINSTEIN, ESQ.
` (Present by Windels Marx Lane &
` Veritext Virtual) Mittendorf, LLP
` One Giralda Farms
` Madison, New Jersey 07940
` 973-966-3236 telephone
` 973-966-3250 fax
` lweinstein@windelsmarx.com
`
` For the Patent MICHAEL KANE, ESQ.
` Owner: Fish & Richardson P.C.
` (Present by 3200 RBC Plaza
` Veritext Virtual) 60 South Sixth Street
` Minneapolis, MN 55402
` 612-337-2502 telephone
` 612-288-9696 fax
` kane@fr.com
`
` * * * * *
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` I N D E X
`
`WITNESS PAGE
` DR. STEPHEN M. STAHL
` Examination by Mr. Weinstein 4
`
`EXHIBITS MARKED
`
` Exhibit 2131 Declaration of Dr. Stephen
` Stahl 4
` Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent 9,815,827 15
` Exhibit 1005 Provisional Application
` No. 60/404,927 17
`
` Exhibit 1009 U.S. Patent 5,532,372 85
`
` Exhibit 1052 U.S. Patent 5,532,372 87
`
` Exhibit 1053 Principal Brief of
` Plaintiffs-Appellees 88
` Exhibit 1026 Saji Amendment 95
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`Whereupon,
` DR. STEPHEN M. STAHL,
`having been first duly sworn to testify to the
`truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
`was examined and testified as follows:
`
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Okay, Madam Court
`Reporter, are we on the record?
` THE COURT REPORTER: We are.
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Okay.
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. WEINSTEIN:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Stahl. Are you ready
`for me to start asking my questions?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. My name is Louis Weinstein. I'm
`an attorney with Windels Marx in New Jersey, and I
`represent the petitioner in this case.
` Could you please state your name for the
`record?
` A. Stephen Stahl.
` Q. Thank you. Is there any, not going into
`specifics, is there any medical reason today
`preventing you from hearing, understanding, and
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`giving answers to my questions?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you understand that you are under oath
`to tell the truth?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you take that oath seriously?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If I ask you a fair question will you do
`your best today to give me an honest answer?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Other than by the wonders of Zoom,
`is there anyone else in the room with you today?
` A. No.
` Q. I think I saw you hold up a FedEx
`package. Do you have that with you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you please open that.
` Have you opened that, Dr. Stahl?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I believe you should have a binder which
`is spiral bound that says, "Potential Exhibits,
`Deposition of Dr. Stahl." Do you have that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then to make it easier for you I
`printed out a copy of your declaration separately.
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`Do you have that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I also printed out a copy of Dr. Kosten's
`declaration. Do you have that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And just, you know, to make things
`go easier, it's nice if you show it to me, that's
`fine, but because this is a deposition we have to
`have verbal answers to all questions. Do you
`understand that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Aside from the spiral bound and the
`two declarations that we just discussed do you have
`any other materials related to this case in the room
`with you?
` A. Yeah, in the room.
` Q. So just in general what materials are
`those?
` A. I think the same ones here. I think
`also, I don't know what's in the exhibits, but it's
`these things in the patent I think. They're not in
`front of me, but they're in the room.
` Q. Okay. Are all the exhibits that you, are
`all the materials that you reviewed for your
`deposition -- excuse me, are all the materials that
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`you reviewed for this case in the room with you?
` A. No.
` MR. WEINSTEIN: All right. I'm going to
`try to mark an exhibit, but you can use the paper
`copy that you have, so let's see if I can do this,
`and please bear with me while I, while I do this.
` (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 2131 was
` marked for identification.)
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Okay. So for the record
`I am introducing as Exhibit 2131 the declaration of
`Dr. Stephen Stahl.
` Q. Do you have Exhibit 2131, the declaration
`of Dr. Stephen Stahl, in front of you, Dr. Stahl?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. About how many times?
` A. Dozens, maybe less than a hundred.
` Q. Okay. I am hard of hearing and I wear
`two hearing aids. Could I ask you to speak as
`clearly as you can, not to put anything in front of
`your mouth? May I ask you that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you. So you prepared a declaration
`in this case, correct?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, what I have marked as Exhibit 2131,
`I might refer to exhibit as E-X. If I say E-X 2131
`will you understand I mean Exhibit 2131?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And during this deposition if I
`say E-X will you understand I mean exhibit?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So would you please in your -- oh,
`and can we call Exhibit 2131 your declaration?
` A. That is what you are calling it, that's
`fine.
` Q. Just trying to make things clear for the
`record.
` Could you please turn in your
`declaration, Exhibit 2131, to page 72, should be
`double sided on the left, and there's a 72 on the
`bottom. Do you have that page?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you sign your declaration,
`Exhibit 2131, on or about March 10, 2021?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When was the last time you read your
`declaration in this case, Exhibit 2131?
` A. This morning.
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` Q. Does Exhibit 2131, your declaration,
`contain all of the opinions that you have formed in
`this case?
` A. I doubt it.
` Q. What other opinions that you have formed
`in this case are not in your declaration?
` A. Well, it depends on the questions you ask
`me. I mean these are addressing specific issues and
`those are my opinions on those issues. It's hard to
`say every opinion you have until you're given a
`question.
` Q. Does Exhibit 2131, your declaration in
`this case, have all of your opinions in this case as
`of March 21 -- excuse me, as of March 10, 2021?
` A. It has my opinions that it lists, yes.
` Q. And your declaration, Exhibit 2131, has
`all of your opinions in this case as of the date you
`signed this declaration; is that true?
` A. I don't think any document has all my
`opinions in it.
` Q. Are there any opinions in this case that
`you can tell me right now other than the opinions in
`your declaration?
` A. Not in general. If you ask me a question
`and it's not in here I'd be happy to answer that for
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`you.
` Q. But if it's not in here then it's not
`something that you were asked to address up 'til
`now, correct?
` A. I think that's fair. I mean, yeah.
` Q. In your declaration, Exhibit 2131, are
`your opinions with respect to all of the questions
`you were asked to address as of March 10, 2021,
`correct?
` A. They are. The questions that are in here
`are addressed, yes.
` Q. Were there any other opinions that you
`formed in this case that aren't addressed in 2131,
`Exhibit 2131?
` A. I don't know how to answer that.
` Q. Okay. Is there anything that you want to
`change in your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. Would you please turn in your declaration
`to Appendix B, as in boy. It starts at page 176 on
`the bottom. Do you have that page, Appendix B?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Does Appendix B list all of the materials
`you considered in forming your opinions in this
`case?
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` A. No.
` Q. What other materials did you consider in
`forming your opinions in this case that are not
`listed in Appendix B?
` A. As an expert it would include things I've
`read over the course of my career. These are the
`highlights, but they're not everything.
` Q. Does Appendix B to your declaration
`include all of the materials that you specifically
`considered for your opinions in this case?
` A. I specifically considered all of these,
`and I think that the specific considerations depend
`upon the issue, so I mean somebody who's been doing
`this for 40 years has a lot of things and things
`even that I've written so again these are the
`highlights, but I'm sure I've considered everything
`I've written or read in my career that's in this
`topic area.
` Q. So could you please turn in your
`declaration, Exhibit 2131, to paragraph 13, page 8?
` Do you have that paragraph 13?
` A. Yes.
` Q. The opinions set forth in your
`declaration are based on the other documents listed
`in or, excuse me, the opinions set forth in your
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`declaration are based on the references and other
`documents listed in the attached Appendix B, your
`personal education, professional experience, and
`general knowledge of the art as of 1999 to 2002 and
`thereafter, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Are there any specific documents not in
`Appendix B that you considered in coming to your
`opinions in this case?
` A. I think you'd have to ask me on a
`specific opinion. I can't recall off the top of my
`head what from my general knowledge, you know, I did
`use, but I'd be happy to tell you anything that
`comes from my general knowledge that's not included
`in Appendix B if you ask me a specific question.
` Q. But sitting here right now you can't
`think of any specific document that you considered
`other than the ones in Appendix B, correct?
` A. No.
` Q. Not correct or correct, yes? If I say
`correct and you say no, that means I might think
`incorrect, so is it correct that there are no other
`documents that you can think of that you
`specifically considered in this case other than the
`ones in Appendix B; is that correct?
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` A. That is correct.
` Q. Okay. How did you decide which specific
`materials you would consider in forming your
`opinions in this case?
` A. Based on the questions posed.
` Q. Did you identify any materials for
`consideration in this case before they were
`identified to you by counsel in this case?
` A. If you look at Appendix B, most of those
`were known to me before.
` Q. And how was it decided that the materials
`in Appendix B would be included in the materials
`that you considered?
` A. In discussion with counsel these seemed
`to be the ones that were most relevant to the
`questions posed in the case.
` Q. Who did you work with to prepare for this
`deposition just in general?
` A. Michael Kane.
` Q. Anybody else?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you work with anybody to prepare your
`declaration in this case?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And who was that, just in general?
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` A. Michael Kane.
` Q. Anybody else?
` A. The law firm facing me faced through
`Michael Kane. Whether he had other help behind the
`scenes I don't know.
` Q. Without going into any specifics, have
`you communicated with a Mr. Chad Shear in connection
`with this case?
` A. I have not any knowledge of that name.
`Does he work for the law firm of Michael Kane or who
`is that?
` Q. I guess Michael Kane might be able to
`answer that better, but I think he is one of the
`attorneys, partners with Mr. Kane.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Did you work with a Dorothy Whelan,
`W-h-e-l-a-n, in connection with this case?
` A. Not in connection with this case that I
`can recall.
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Okay, I'm going to now
`try to introduce another exhibit.
` Excuse me. I'm sorry to keep you
`waiting. As soon as I figure this out it will go a
`lot easier.
` Okay, wonders of technology. All right.
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`I am going to introduce as Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent
`9,815,827.
` (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 1001 was
` marked for identification.)
` MR. WEINSTEIN:
` Q. Dr. Stahl, in your spiral binder can you
`please go to what is marked as Exhibit A?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Now, it's tabbed Exhibit A to help you
`find the things, but the document at Tab A is really
`Exhibit 1001, U.S. 9,815,827 in this case. Do you
`have the first page of Exhibit 1001 in front of you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can we call that '827 patent?
` A. Sure.
` Q. Exhibit 1001, the '827 patent, is one of
`the documents you considered in coming to your
`opinions in this case, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You understand that the '827 patent,
`Exhibit 1001, is the patent whose validity is being
`challenged in this case?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You understand that that case is known as
`an inter partes review?
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` A. No.
` Q. You understand that this case that we're
`working on is in front of the United States Patent
`and Trademark Office?
` A. I think so. I mean I don't really follow
`the legal part of it, but I've heard that.
` Q. Have you ever been involved in a district
`court litigation?
` A. Well, I'm not --
` MR. KANE: I'll say objection, vague, but
`answer, Dr. Stahl.
` A. I don't -- I mean the litigation I've
`been involved with I don't know whether it's
`district court or not so I don't keep track of that.
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Okay.
` I'm going to mark another exhibit just to
`keep my records straight here. I am going to mark
`another exhibit. Get my records straight here.
` Q. Okay, and while I'm doing that could you
`turn to Exhibit B in your binder, please?
` A. Yes.
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Okay. I'm introducing as
`Exhibit 1002 (sic), Provisional Application No.
`60/404,927.
`/ / /
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` (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 1005 was
` marked for identification.)
` Q. Do you, Dr. Stahl, have Exhibit 1005 in
`front of you?
` A. Yes.
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Just for the record I'm
`just going to make sure this is being introduced as
`Exhibit 1005. Can we call --
` MR. KANE: I thought you called it 1002?
` MR. WEINSTEIN: That's why I said that.
` THE WITNESS: Which one is it?
` MR. WEINSTEIN: It's Exhibit 1005.
` Madam Court Reporter, please make sure
`that's straight. The stamp on it says Exhibit 1005
`as it was introduced and at the bottom of each page
`it says Slayback Exhibit 1005.
` Q. Can we call Exhibit 1005 the '927
`provisional application?
` A. Okay, '927 provisional application.
`Okay.
` Q. Is the '927 provisional application one
`of the documents that you reviewed in coming to your
`opinions in this case?
` A. Well, I don't know. I don't -- perhaps.
`I mean I've seen the number '927, and I've seen some
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`Page 18
`of the things in it, but isn't there another one
`called '827?
` Q. Okay. Exhibit 1001 is the '827 patent.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. And Exhibit 1005 is the '927 provisional
`application.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And if we go in your declaration and we
`go to Appendix B and we go to, let's see, we go to
`page 181.
` A. Of Exhibit B?
` Q. Of Exhibit B. Do you have that?
` A. Mine only goes to 46.
` MR. WEINSTEIN: Really?
` THE WITNESS: Oh, Exhibit B has 46 pages.
` MR. WEINSTEIN:
` Q. I'm sorry, if you go to your declaration
`it has 181 pages.
` A. Oh, okay, my declaration. That's
`Kosten's and here's mine. Page 181?
` Q. It's page 181, but it's the
`second-to-the-last page facing you.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And do you see there under the left-hand
`column it says 1005?
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`Page 19
` A. On page 181, second to the last, Nishii,
`it says 1040 Nishii. It doesn't say 1005. It says
`with translation from Japanese to English.
` Q. I think you're looking at the wrong
`thing. I asked you to pick up Exhibit -- oh, your
`declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Looking at B?
` A. Yeah, 181.
` Q. At the bottom, and then there is a column
`on the left, right --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- that has exhibit numbers?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And towards the middle there is a
`No. 1005, correct?
` A. Yes, yep; yes.
` Q. Okay, and that's what we earlier called
`the '927 provisional application, so my question to
`you is the '927 provisional application,
`Exhibit 1005, one of the documents that you reviewed
`in coming to your opinion in this case?
` A. You refreshed my memory. I hadn't seen
`it for a while, but the answer is yes.
` Q. Okay. Can we go in your declaration,
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`Page 20
`Exhibit 2131, to paragraph 14 at page 8. Do you
`have that paragraph 14, page 8, in your declaration?
` A. Page 8 has paragraph 14, yes.
` Q. And that's your declaration, correct, not
`Dr. Kosten's declaration?
` A. Yes, it's mine.
` Q. To make things easier for you you might
`want to put Dr. Kosten's declaration aside because
`I'm not going to be asking you many, if any,
`questions about that.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So you see that in that paragraph 14 in
`your declaration you refer to certain claims of the
` '827 patent as the manic depressive claims?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Today can we call those particular claims
`the manic depressive claims?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you understand that I'm referring to
`those claims as the manic depressive claims listed
`in paragraph 14, correct?
` A. It refers to the manic depressive claims
`of '827; is that correct?
` Q. Correct.
` A. Okay, yes.
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`Page 21
` Q. And you can look at paragraph 14 of your
`declaration if you want. My question to you is one
`of your opinions in this case concerns whether the
`'927 provisional application shows the person of
`ordinary skill that the inventors had possession of
`the subject matter of the manic depressive claims.
`That is one of your opinions in this case, correct?
` A. Take that by me again, so '927 is from
` '827 is what you're saying? I don't quite
`understand.
` Q. The manic depressive claims are in the
`'927 patent?
` A. '827.
` Q. Yes, '827 patent. Sorry, thank you, and
`one of your opinions in this case is whether the
`'927 provisional application shows possession of
`those manic depressive claims by a person of skill
`in the art, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And one of your opinions in this case
`concerns whether claims 1 through 75 of the '827
`patent were obvious, correct?
` A. Those claims were obvious is what you're
`asking me?
` Q. One of your opinions concerns whether
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`Page 22
`claims 1 through 75 of the '827 patent were obvious,
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In your declaration I didn't see the word
`anticipate, anticipated, or anticipation. Do you
`have an opinion in this case as to whether the manic
`depressive claims of the '827 patent were
`anticipated?
` A. I don't know what that word means. You
`say I didn't use it. Maybe I meant something else.
` Q. I see you have opinions concerning
`possession of the manic depressive claims and
`whether the claims 1 through 75 were obvious. Do
`you remember any opinion concerning whether the
`manic depressive claims were in the prior art
`exactly in a single reference?
` A. I do not understand that question.
` Q. Okay.
` A. What do you mean by prior art?
`Specifically to this, this prior art, so it's
`confused, I'm sorry.
` Q. Okay, so let's just leave that be.
` Do you have an understanding of the word
`prior art?
` A. Well, I understand it from a science
`
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`Page 23
`point of view. I'm not a lawyer so there probably
`are different meanings for it to a lawyer that I
`don't know.
` Q. Okay. Before this case have you ever
`worked on a case regarding the '827 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you have an expert report in that
`case?
` A. I don't know, probably. You'll have to
`ask Mr. Kane.
` Q. I'm not saying that there was a report in
`this case, but if there was did you look at that
`report in connection with the current case?
` A. Not at all.
` Q. I'm going to try to mark another
`exhibit. Actually it's not going to be an exhibit,
`but I'm going to ask you to please turn in your
`binder to Tab Exhibit K. Do you have that Tab
`Exhibit K?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Sort of towards the middle on the bottom
`it has the word decision in capital letters,
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you please turn to the bottom of
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`Page 24
`page 9 in that document, and for the record that is
`the decision granting institution of inter partes
`review in IPR2020-01053 entered December 9, 2020,
`paper 7. Do you have that page 9 of that document
`in front of you?
` A. Yes, under Exhibit K.
` Q. Under Exhibit K, which is Tab K, yes, and
`there is a No. 9 at the bottom of that page?
` A. Right.
` Q. And the last paragraph which is sort of
`incomplete starts with the words "based on the
`current record," do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then do you see if you count
`three lines down it says, We agree with petitioner
`here that, quote, a patient, close quote, or, quote,
`the patient, close quote, should have its ordinary
`and customary meaning of, quote, one or more
`patients, comma, closed quote, as opposed to a,
`quote, patient population, closed quote. Do you see
`those words?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you have a different construction for
`a patient or the patient?
` A. Not if you're telling me it's not a
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`
`patient population.
` Q. I'm asking you in this case in rendering
`your opinions did you assume that the term a patient
`in the claims meant one or more patients?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And did you assume in your opinions in
`this case that the term the patient in the claims of
`the '827 patent meant one or more patients?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you agree that a patient in this claim
`includes one patient?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you agree that the patient in the
`claims of this case includes one patient?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, we can go back to your declaration,
`please, that is Exhibit 2131. Do you have your
`declaration, Exhibit 2131?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Whoops, I just -- could you please turn
`in your declaration to paragraph 27 at page 12? Do
`you have that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. At the end of that paragraph 27, the last
`line, you see the words "the novel aspects of the
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`
`claimed invention"?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In coming to your opinions in this case
`what did you understand novel aspects of the claimed
`invention to mean?
` A. Something that was novel and new,
`unexpected.
` Q. Novel compared to what?
` A. Well, novel means something out of the
`ordinary.
` Q. In coming to your opinions in this case
`did you consider novel aspects to mean aspects that
`were not in the prior art?
` A. That's one way to look at it. I guess
`you'd have to tell me what the date of the question
`is and what that prior art was so it's an aspect of
`what you say.
` Q. Well, let's look at paragraph 31 of your
`declaration, and in there do you see the words "my
`analysis should be conducted as of the time of the
`invention"?
` A. Yes, I see that.
` Q. In coming to your opinions in this case
`what did you use as the time of the invention, what
`date?
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`Page 27
`
` A. Regarding the '827 patent?
` Q. Correct.
` A. I don't know for sure, but it's probably
`in the patent. I think it's 2002. It's something
`like that. Whatever it is you can tell me what it
`is as a matter of fact, but it was the date of the
` '827 patent.
` Q. If we go to Exhibit 1001 at Tab A, which
`is the '827 patent, do you have that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And you see that there is some
`parenthetical numbers on the left-hand side. One of
`them says " (60) Provisional application"?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then if you continue in that phrase
`it says, "filed on August 22, 2002"?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In coming to your opinions in this case
`did you consider the time of the invention to be as
`of August 22, 2002?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Could you please go to paragraph 30 of
`your declaration in this case, Exhibit 2131. It's
`at page 12, paragraph 30. Do you have that?
` A. Yes.
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`Page 28
` Q. Can you just read that paragraph to
`yourself? It carries on to the next page and tell
`me when you're done.
` A. (Witness complies.) Yes.
` Q. And in that paragraph do you see the
`words, quote, and this begins at the bottom of
`page 12, quote, "A person of ordinary skill reading
`the earlier filed patent application would
`understand that the inventors were in possession of
`the claimed invention." Do you see those words?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What, in coming to your opinions in this
`case what did you understand the words "the
`inventors were in possession of the claimed
`invention" to mean?
` A. That they, I mean basically this is kind
`of legalese. I think it really means they had
`thought of it.
` Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer.
` A. That the inventors had thought of the
`invention.
` Q. We just mentioned the date of August 22,
`2002, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'm going to back up one year from that
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`
`and call it August 21, 2001. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. And so my question to you is was the idea
`of treating schizophrenia with an antipsychotic
`known to a person of ordinary skill in the art prior
`to August 21, 2001?
` A. So, yes; yes.
` Q. Was the idea of treating schizophrenia
`with an atypical antipsychotic known to a person of
`skill in the art prior to August 21, 2001?
` A. I guess it depends on what your
`definition of atypical antipsychotic is, but the
`general answer would be yes with some definitions of
`atypical antipsychotic.
` Q. What did the person of ordinary skill in
`the art consider an atypical antipsychotic to be as
`of August 21, 2001? That's a general question.
` A. It would be something that caused fewer
`extrapyramidal side effects than a typical
`antipsychotic.
` Q. You said extra something. I think it
`starts with a P. I'm going to ask you to spell that
`for the court reporter, please.
` A. E-x-t-r-a-p-y-r-a-m-i-d-a-l.
` Q. And what does that mean, extrapyramidal
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`side effects?
` A. It means tremor, rigidity, and
`bradykinesia.
` Q. You have to spell that.
` A. B-r-a-d-y-k-i-n-e-s-i-a.
` Q. Are those all related to movement in a
`way?
` A. Yes, they are.
` Q. Was the idea of treating manic depressive
`psychosis with an antipsychotic known to a person of
`ordinary skill in the art prior to August 21, 2001?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Was the idea of treating manic depressive
`psychosis with an atypical antipsychotic in the
`prior art -- excuse me, known to a person of
`ordinary skill in the art prior to August 21, 2001?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Prior to August 21, 2001, can you tell me
`the names of any atypical antipsychotics which were
`known to a person of ordinary skill in the art for
`treating schizophrenia prior to August 21, 2001?
` A. I have to consult the launch dates of the
`various drugs, but certainly risperidone would have
`been out by 2001.
` Q. Olanzapine would have been out by 2001,
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`correct?
` A. I don't recall when it's launch date was,
`but it's very likely it was.
` Q. What atypical
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