Deposition of:
`Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes
`
`May 10, 2021
`
`In the Matter of:
`Dell Inc. ZTE Corporation et al. vs. 3G
`Licensing S.A.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-462-2233 | calendar-de@veritext.com |
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` - - -
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - -
`
`Page 1
`
` DELL, INC., ZTE CORPORATION
` and
` ZTE (USA) INC.
` Petitioners
` v.
` 3G LICENSING S.A.
` Patent Owner
`
` - - -
`
` Case IPR2020-1157
` Patent No. 7,274,933
` Case IPR2020-01158
` Patent No. 7,460,868
`
` Case IPR2020-01159
` Patent No. 7,596,375
` Case IPR2020-01160
` Patent No. 7,275,374
`
` Case IPR2020-01161
` Patent No. 8,472,955
` Case IPR2020-01162
` Patent No. 8,948,756
`
` - - -
`
` May 10, 2021
`
` - - -
`
` Oral deposition of DR. APOSTOLOS K.
` KAKAES.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`Page 2
`
`1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd.):
`
`Page 4
`
`12
`
`2 3
`
` On behalf of the Patent Owner
`4 DEVLIN LAW FIRM LLC
` BY: STEPHANIE BERGER, ESQUIRE
`5 ANDREW DEMARCO, ESQUIRE
` and
`6 NEIL A. BENCHELL, ESQUIRE
` 1526 Gilpin Avenue
`7 Wilmington, DE 19806
` 302.449.9010
`8 sberger@devlinlawfirm.com
` ademarco@devlinlawfirm.com
`9 nbenchell@devlinlawfirm.com
`10
`11 - - -
`12
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`14
`15
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`18
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`21
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` - - -
`3 Oral deposition of DR. APOSTOLOS
`4 K. KAKAES taken at via Zoom, beginning at
`5 10:01 a.m., before LINDA ROSSI-RIOS, a
`6 Federally Approved Registered Professional
`7 Reporter, Certified Court Reporter and Notary
`8 Public.
`9 - - -
`10
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`Page 3
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`Page 5
`
`1 I N D E X
`2
`
` WITNESS PAGE
`
`3
`
`4
`
`DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
` By Ms. Berger 9
`
`56
`
` E X H I B I T S
`7 MARKED DESCRIPTION MARKED
`8 Exhibit 0001 Declaration of Dr. 22
` Apostolos K. Kakaes in
`9 Support of Petition
` for Inter Parties
`10 Review of U.S. Patent
` No. 7,724,933
`
`11
`
`Exhibit 0002 Declaration of Dr. 32
`12 Apostolos K. Kakaes in
` Support of Petition
`13 for Inter Parties
` Review of U.S. Patent
`14 No. 7,460,868
`15 Exhibit 0003 Declaration of Dr. 33
` Apostolos K. Kakaes in
`16 Support of Petition
` for Inter Parties
`17 Review of U.S. Patent
` No. 7,596,375
`
`18
`
`Exhibit 0004 Declaration of Dr. 34
`19 Apostolos K. Kakaes in
` Support of Petition
`20 for Inter Parties
` Review of U.S. Patent
`21 No. 7,275,374
`22
`23
`24
`
`1 A P P E A R A N C E S : (Via Zoom)
`2
`
` On behalf of the Petitioner, ZTE
`3 Corporation and ZTE (USA) INC.
`4 BANNER & WITCOFF, LTD.
` BY: JOHN R. HUTCHINS, ESQUIRE
`5 C. ANDY MU, ESQUIRE
` and
`6 WESLEY W. JONES, ESQUIRE
` 1100 13th Street, MW
`7 Washington, DC 20005
` 202.824.3000
`8 jhutchins@bannerwitcoff.com
` amu@bannerwitcoff.com
`9 wjones@bannerwitcoff.com
`10
`11 On behalf of the Petitioner, Dell, Inc.
`12
`
` GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER LLP
`13 BY: BRIAN M. BUROKER, ESQUIRE
` 1050 Connecticut Avenue, NW
`14 Washington, DC 20036
` 202.955.8500
`15 bburoker@gibsondunn.com
` and
`16 GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER LLP
` BY: NATHAN R. CURTIS, ESQUIRE
`17 and
` AUDREY YANG, ESQUIRE
`18 2001 Ross Avenue
` Suite 2100
`19 Dallas, TX 75201
` 214.698.3100
`20 ncurtis@gibsondunn.com
` ayang@gibsondunn.com
`
`21
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`24
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`2 (Pages 2 - 5)
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`Page 6
`
`Page 8
`
`1 - - -
`2 COURT REPORTER: The attorneys
`3 participating in this deposition
`4 acknowledge that I am not physically
`5 present in the deposition room, and
`6 that I will be reporting this
`7 deposition remotely.
`8 They further acknowledge that in
`9 lieu of an oath administered in person,
`10 I will administer the oath remotely.
`11 The parties and their counsel
`12 further agree that the witness may be
`13 in a state where I am not a Notary and
`14 stipulate to the witness being sworn in
`15 by an out-of-state Notary.
`16 If any party does have an
`17 objection to this manner of reporting,
`18 please state so now.
`19 (No objections.)
`20 MR. BUROKER: No objection on
`21 behalf of Dell and other petitioners.
`22 MS. BERGER: No objection on
`23 behalf of patent owner.
`24 - - -
`
`Page 9
`1 DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, after
`2 having been first duly sworn, was
`3 examined and testified as follows:
`4 - - -
`5 EXAMINATION
`6 - - -
`7 BY MS. BERGER:
`8 Q. Good morning, Dr. Kakaes. My
`9 name is Stephanie Berger, and I'm representing
`10 the patent owner 3G Licensing S.A. in this
`11 matter. And this is your expert deposition in
`12 IPRs 2020-01157, 01158, 01159, 01160, 01161
`13 and 01162.
`14 Dr. Kakaes, could you, please,
`15 state your name and address for the record?
`16 A. Sure. My name is Apostolos,
`17 A-P-O-S-T-O-L-O-S, last name is Kakaes,
`18 KAKAES. My address is 908 Park Street
`19 Southeast, Vienna, Virginia 22180.
`20 Q. Thank you. And are you currently
`21 employed?
`22 A. Yes, I am.
`23 Q. And where is that?
`24 A. That's the corporation that I
`
`3 (Pages 6 - 9)
`
`1 E X H I B I T S (cont'd.) MARKED
`2 Exhibit 0005 Declaration of Dr. 35
` Apostolos K. Kakaes in
`3 Support of Petition
` for Inter Parties
`4 Review of U.S. Patent
` No. 8,472,955
`
`5
`
`Exhibit 0006 Declaration of Dr. 36
`6 Apostolos K. Kakaes in
` Support of Petition
`7 for Inter Parties
` Review of U.S. Patent
`8 No. 8,948,756
`9 Exhibit 0007 U.S. Patent 7,274,933 44
`10 Exhibit 0008 Patent Application 89
` Publication McElwain
`11 et al.
`12 Exhibit 0009 Patent Application 118
` Publication Uchida
`
`13
`
`Exhibit 0010 Patent Application 139
`14 Publication Hicks et
` al.
`
`15
`16 (Exhibits attached to transcript.)
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
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`1 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX
`2
`
` DIRECTION TO WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER
`
`Page 7
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`3
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`4
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` Page Line
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` (None)
`
`5678
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` REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS
`9 Page Line
`10 (None)
`11
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` STIPULATIONS
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`15
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` Page Line
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` 152 9
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`17
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`20 QUESTIONS MARKED
`21 Page Line
`22 (None)
`23
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`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 10
`
`Page 12
`
`1 have founded and the president of called
`2 Cosmos Communications Consulting Corporation.
`3 Q. Do you understand, Dr. Kakaes,
`4 that you're here today for cross-examination
`5 in six different IPR matters?
`6 A. Yes, I do.
`7 Q. And do you understand that the
`8 1157 IPR concerns the '933 patent?
`9 A. I don't remember the
`10 identification of the IPR, but I do remember
`11 the '933 patent as being one of them.
`12 Q. Understood. I know -- I realize
`13 there are a lot of IPRs today, that we're
`14 doing all in one deposition. So if you have
`15 any questions about what we're referring to at
`16 any point, please let me know. I think we
`17 can -- probably most of the questions will be
`18 relevant to all of the IPRs. But if not, I'll
`19 try to make that clear to you and just ask
`20 that you let me know if anything is unclear.
`21 Is that fine?
`22 A. Yes.
`23 Q. So just for clarity, you
`24 understand that we're addressing all six IPRs
`
`1 Q. And were all of those cases
`2 related to patent cases?
`3 A. Yes.
`4 Q. And you were deposed as an
`5 expert witness in those cases. Correct?
`6 A. Yes. I've been deposed as an
`7 expert, but I've also testified in criminal
`8 court that not related to patents, for
`9 example.
`10 Q. When was the last time you were
`11 deposed before today?
`12 A. I don't remember the exact date.
`13 About a month ago give or take. One of your
`14 colleagues did a deposition.
`15 Q. So your last deposition was in
`16 another IPR proceeding. Is that right?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. Do you recall about how many
`19 times you've been retained to assist in an IPR
`20 proceeding?
`21 MR. BUROKER: Objection. Form.
`22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
`23 BY MS. BERGER:
`24 Q. I'm sorry, could you repeat the
`
`Page 11
`1 in this one combined deposition today. Is
`2 that right?
`3 A. That's my understanding.
`4 Q. Dr. Kakaes, have you ever been
`5 deposed before?
`6 A. Yes, I have.
`7 Q. About how many times?
`8 A. I don't recall the number of
`9 times. Several times.
`10 Q. Is it more than about 10 times?
`11 A. I'd say yes, more than 10.
`12 Q. More than 20?
`13 A. I'm not sure.
`14 Q. So it could be more than 20?
`15 A. It could.
`16 Q. What kinds of cases have you
`17 given a deposition in?
`18 A. I'm not sure what you mean by
`19 what kind of cases.
`20 Q. Did you give depositions in
`21 Federal District Court litigations or other
`22 IPRs? What type of proceedings?
`23 A. I've given depositions in
`24 District Court cases as well as in IPRs.
`
`Page 13
`
`1 answer?
`2 A. No, I do not.
`3 Q. Have you ever been cross-examined
`4 as an expert witness at a trial?
`5 A. Yes, I have.
`6 Q. When was that?
`7 A. Several times. I don't remember
`8 the dates.
`9 Q. Do you remember the cases?
`10 A. I don't remember all the cases,
`11 no.
`12 Q. Do you remember any of them?
`13 A. Yes.
`14 Q. Which ones do you remember?
`15 A. There was one in the District of
`16 Texas where I assisted the company that
`17 attained -- that I was retained for called
`18 Comscore. There was another in the District
`19 of Texas where I was retained to -- on behalf
`20 of HTC. I was retained in some ITC cases.
`21 I'm not sure if you include those in your
`22 question or not. So those are the ones that
`23 come to mind right off the top.
`24 Q. So you were cross-examined as an
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`4 (Pages 10 - 13)
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 14
`1 expert witness at ITC proceedings. Is that
`2 right?
`3 A. Yes.
`4 Q. Do you recall which ones those
`5 were?
`6 A. Again, there were several.
`7 Q. Do you recall any sitting here
`8 today?
`9 A. Yes. I may be conflating ones
`10 that did go to trial and ones that didn't go
`11 to trial because they settled. But, I think
`12 there was one where I testified on behalf of
`13 Samsung as well as on behalf of Nokia for the
`14 patent, the owner was InterDigital.
`15 Q. Are you aware whether your
`16 testimony has ever been rejected by a court or
`17 other tribunal?
`18 MR. BUROKER: Objection to form.
`19 THE WITNESS: I have never known
`20 for my testimony to have been rejected.
`21 BY MS. BERGER:
`22 Q. So, Dr. Kakaes, since you've
`23 been through a deposition several times
`24 before, I'm sure you understand the general
`
`Page 15
`1 procedure, but before we start, I'd like to go
`2 over the ground rules. I think it's helpful
`3 at the beginning just to make sure we're all
`4 on the same page. So the first issue is
`5 please give verbal answers to all of the
`6 questions so that the court reporter can take
`7 it down.
`8 If you don't understand a
`9 question that I've asked, please tell me and
`10 I'll try to re-ask it in a form that you can
`11 understand. If you answer the question, I'll
`12 assume that you understood it as I asked it.
`13 If you need a break at any
`14 point, that's fine, just let me know. I just
`15 ask that if there's a pending question, that
`16 you finish answering the question before we
`17 take a break.
`18 Dr. Kakaes, do you understand
`19 these rules as I've laid them out?
`20 A. I understand them with one small
`21 correction, that you can assume that I
`22 understood the question when I answered it,
`23 that my -- I do have an understanding of the
`24 question. Whether that's what you intended or
`
`Page 16
`
`1 not, I can never know for sure.
`2 Q. Right. Of course. I understand
`3 that, yes. What I meant was that it's your
`4 opinion that you understand the question if
`5 you ask the question -- if you answer it.
`6 Dr. Kakaes, you understand that
`7 the testimony you're providing today is under
`8 oath. Correct?
`9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. Do you have any other participants
`11 in the room with you today?
`12 A. No.
`13 Q. Do you have any documents in
`14 front of you at the moment?
`15 A. I do have a box that I
`16 understand was sent by you. And I have a --
`17 whatchamacallit -- paper where the person
`18 responsible wrote his extension so I can call
`19 if there are any issues.
`20 Q. I'm sorry, what is the other
`21 paper that you have?
`22 A. The pad from the -- where on the
`23 first page the person that assisted me with
`24 the setup here, wrote his extension in case I
`
`Page 17
`
`1 need to reach out to him.
`2 Q. Okay. Understood. And do you
`3 have any other documents, physical or
`4 electronic, in front of you at the moment?
`5 A. No, I do not.
`6 Q. Have you opened the box of
`7 documents yet?
`8 A. No, I was asked not to open it.
`9 Q. Okay. So that's fine. I guess
`10 we can get to that later.
`11 Dr. Kakaes, who retained you in
`12 these IPR proceedings that we're addressing
`13 today?
`14 A. I don't recall the name of the
`15 specific attorney that retained me, but I
`16 believe it was attorneys from Gibson Dunn. I
`17 don't remember the specific name.
`18 Q. When were you retained by the
`19 attorneys from Gibson Dunn?
`20 A. I don't remember. Several
`21 months ago, I guess.
`22 Q. Was it sometime last year?
`23 A. Yeah, I think it would be last
`24 year.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`5 (Pages 14 - 17)
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 18
`
`1 Q. Do you recall when last year?
`2 A. No, I don't.
`3 Q. Are you being paid your standard
`4 hourly rate for all of your work performed in
`5 connection with these IPRs?
`6 A. Yes, I am.
`7 Q. And just for the record, what is
`8 your hourly rate?
`9 A. I think that when I was engaged
`10 in this matter my hourly rate was $950 an
`11 hour.
`12 Q. Is that your current hourly rate
`13 as well?
`14 A. No, it is not.
`15 Q. What is it now?
`16 A. $1,100 an hour.
`17 Q. When did you begin working on
`18 the IPRs that we're discussing today?
`19 A. When I was retained.
`20 Q. So last year at some point?
`21 A. I believe it was last year. I'm
`22 not exactly certain, but I believe it must
`23 have been before January 1 of this year. But,
`24 again, I'm not certain.
`
`Page 19
`
`1 Q. Are you aware that there are
`2 related litigations in Federal District Court
`3 between the patent owner in this case and the
`4 petitioners involving the same patents?
`5 A. I'm vaguely aware of the fact
`6 that there are some other cases going on, but
`7 I'm not sure exactly which patents those cases
`8 involved and what the overlap is, if any, et
`9 cetera. So broadly speaking, I know there's
`10 other litigations. I don't know what other
`11 patents are involved.
`12 Q. So you have not been retained as
`13 an expert in any of the District Court
`14 litigations. Is that right?
`15 MR. BUROKER: Objection. Form.
`16 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I need
`17 to go back and look at the retention
`18 letter to see how exactly it is worded.
`19 I don't know if that wording includes
`20 or doesn't include the litigation
`21 cases. But I have not done any work
`22 related to the litigation cases.
`23 BY MS. BERGER:
`24 Q. Dr. Kakaes, did you have any
`
`Page 20
`1 discussions with anyone to prepare for your
`2 deposition today?
`3 A. Yes, I did.
`4 Q. Who did you have these discussions
`5 with?
`6 A. With attorneys that retained me.
`7 Q. Which attorneys?
`8 A. I don't remember all the names,
`9 but Mr. Brian who is here today, here being
`10 virtually here. Mr. Nathan Curtis. And there
`11 were a couple of others that were involved. I
`12 don't remember all the names.
`13 Q. How long were your discussions
`14 with the attorneys in preparation for your
`15 deposition today?
`16 A. Several hours.
`17 Q. Did you have any discussions
`18 with anyone who is not a lawyer in preparation
`19 for your deposition?
`20 A. No, I did not.
`21 Q. Have you spoken about these IPRs
`22 with anyone other than the lawyers for
`23 petitioners in this case?
`24 A. No, I have not.
`
`Page 21
`1 Q. Did you review any documents to
`2 prepare for your deposition today?
`3 A. Yes, I did.
`4 Q. What did you review?
`5 A. I reviewed the -- all my six
`6 Declarations. And I reviewed the patents, of
`7 course, to refresh my memory. I reviewed the
`8 prior art that was identified to refresh my
`9 memory. I think that's about it. And other
`10 related documents certainly, but nothing
`11 beyond that.
`12 Q. So I think I would like for you
`13 to go ahead and open the box of exhibits. I
`14 don't know, it might be helpful if we go off
`15 the record for a few minutes or if you have it
`16 open already.
`17 A. Like I said --
`18 MR. BUROKER: I don't think it
`19 will take long. It looks like it's a
`20 package that will open readily, so...
`21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
`22 BY MS. BERGER:
`23 Q. Take your time.
`24 A. I have all the documents here.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`6 (Pages 18 - 21)
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 22
`
`1 Q. So I'd like for you to first
`2 find -- hopefully it should be on top,
`3 Exhibit 1003 from IPR 2020-01157. It should
`4 be your Declaration.
`5 A. It's not on the very top, but
`6 which one did you say?
`7 Q. So Exhibit 1003 from the 1157
`8 IPR, and that should be your Declaration.
`9 A. 1003 from the 357, is that what
`10 you said?
`11 Q. From the 1157 IPR. So it should
`12 be the '933 patent.
`13 A. Okay. Yes, I have it here now.
`14 It was towards the end of the pile.
`15 MS. BERGER: I'm going to enter
`16 this as Exhibit 1, and I'll introduce
`17 it electronically as well.
`18 - - -
`19 (Exhibit 0001, Declaration of
`20 Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes in Support of
`21 Petition for Inter Parties Review of
`22 U.S. Patent No. 7,724,933, marked for
`23 identification.)
`24 - - -
`
`Page 23
`
`1 MS. BERGER: This should be
`2 coming up on Exhibit Share for those
`3 who are using that.
`4 THE WITNESS: I have it. Thank
`5 you.
`6 BY MS. BERGER:
`7 Q. Dr. Kakaes, do you have a copy
`8 of your Expert Declaration in IPR 2020-01157?
`9 A. Yes, I do.
`10 Q. Is this a complete copy of your
`11 Declaration?
`12 A. It appears to be so. I'm not
`13 checking page for page, but it appears to be
`14 so.
`15 Q. If you could look through it and
`16 confirm as best you can. Do you see that?
`17 A. I mean, I'm not sure how I would
`18 confirm that it is. But like I said, it does
`19 appear to be, so I would assume that there is
`20 no pages missing. I wouldn't know unless I go
`21 through it page by page.
`22 Q. But as you're looking at it now,
`23 does it look complete?
`24 A. It does.
`
`Page 24
`1 Q. This is your Expert Declaration
`2 that addresses the '933 patent. Is that
`3 right?
`4 A. Yes, that's correct.
`5 Q. Can you, please, turn to -- turn
`6 to Appendix A. It's on -- starts on page 224.
`7 A. Okay. But it's not page 224.
`8 It's page A-1. I guess you're looking at the
`9 PDF.
`10 Q. I'm looking at the PDF, so that
`11 makes sense.
`12 A. No worries.
`13 Q. But you're at Appendix A of your
`14 Declaration. Is that correct?
`15 A. Correct.
`16 Q. Is this a copy of your CV?
`17 MR. BUROKER: Objection to form.
`18 THE WITNESS: It appears to be a
`19 copy of my CV that I sent.
`20 BY MS. BERGER:
`21 Q. Did you use the same copy of
`22 your CV in all six IPRs, to your knowledge?
`23 A. To the best of my recollection,
`24 yes.
`
`Page 25
`1 Q. Looking at Appendix A now, is
`2 this a complete copy of your CV?
`3 A. I think so.
`4 Q. Does it identify all of your
`5 degrees that you received?
`6 A. Yes, it does.
`7 Q. Does it include a complete
`8 summary of your employment background?
`9 A. Yes, it does.
`10 Q. Does it identify all of your
`11 publications and presentations?
`12 A. I'm sure it does identify some
`13 presentations I've made, but it identifies all
`14 the ones that I thought were worthy of being
`15 identified, worthy of being mentioned.
`16 Q. Are there any presentations that
`17 you know of that were not identified?
`18 A. I mean, it depends on your
`19 definition of presentation.
`20 Q. Well, what is your definition of
`21 a presentation based on what you've included
`22 here?
`23 MR. BUROKER: Object to the
`24 form.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`7 (Pages 22 - 25)
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 26
`1 THE WITNESS: What I've included
`2 here were presentations that I deemed
`3 were important enough to be included in
`4 my CV, and there were presentations
`5 that I made numerous times, numerous
`6 different contexts that I did not think
`7 were important enough to be included in
`8 the CV, so they're not.
`9 BY MS. BERGER:
`10 Q. How did you determine if a
`11 presentation was important enough to include?
`12 A. Common sense.
`13 Q. Can you give me an example?
`14 A. Sure. I taught a course, for
`15 example, GSM, to a team of engineers at
`16 company X and, then, company Y. And, then, I
`17 taught a different course on the propagation
`18 and fading or different course of CDMA systems
`19 or et cetera. Those I think were not
`20 important enough to be included in the CV.
`21 That was just part of my normal consulting
`22 work.
`23 Q. So presentations were part of
`24 your normal consulting work, you didn't
`
`Page 28
`1 at any point after you left George Washington
`2 University?
`3 A. I chose not to do so.
`4 Q. Why was that?
`5 A. Mostly for personal reasons.
`6 Q. Do you currently work as a
`7 consultant? Is that right?
`8 A. Yes, I do.
`9 I would like another break
`10 whenever we have a chance.
`11 Q. Sure. Actually why don't we
`12 just take a break right now. This is a good
`13 time. How long do you need?
`14 A. Ten minutes.
`15 MS. BERGER: Off the record.
`16 - - -
`17 (A recess was taken from
`18 10:33 a.m. to 10:42 a.m.)
`19 - - -
`20 BY MS. BERGER:
`21 Q. Dr. Kakaes, I just wanted to go
`22 back to one point. In terms of the '933
`23 patent, did you have any knowledge of this
`24 patent before you were retained in these IPRs?
`
`Page 27
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`1 include them here?
`2 A. I wouldn't generalize like that.
`3 I would say the presentations that I decided
`4 were worthy of being included in the CV I
`5 included. Presentations that I thought were
`6 more specific to the needs of any particular
`7 company, I did not.
`8 Q. So some of the presentations
`9 that you did not include are relevant to
`10 cellular technology. Is that right?
`11 A. Yes.
`12 Q. Your CV states that you taught
`13 at George Washington University. Is that
`14 right?
`15 A. Yes.
`16 Q. And what was your position there?
`17 A. I was an assistant professor in
`18 the department of electrical engineering and
`19 computer science.
`20 Q. Why did you leave George
`21 Washington University?
`22 A. I did not get tenure because the
`23 university erred in not granting me tenure.
`24 Q. Have you worked as a professor
`
`Page 29
`1 A. No, I don't remember having seen
`2 this patent before.
`3 Q. What about any of the other
`4 patents in these IPRs, have you seen any of
`5 them before you were retained to work on the
`6 IPRs?
`7 A. I don't remember having ever
`8 seen them before. Is it possible that some of
`9 them I may have seen in passing at some point?
`10 I suppose it is because I've seen thousands of
`11 patents, quite literally, but I have no
`12 recollection of having seen any of them.
`13 Q. So turning back to your
`14 Declaration in the 1157 IPR, which we've
`15 marked as Exhibit 1. You have that with you?
`16 A. I do. Should I mark it as
`17 Exhibit 1 or --
`18 Q. No, that's okay. We'll take
`19 care of marking it. You're fine with the
`20 paper copies.
`21 So what exactly were you asked
`22 to do by petitioners when they retained you to
`23 assist with these IPRs?
`24 A. They asked me to analyze the
`
`8 (Pages 26 - 29)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Dell Inc., Ex. 1031
`
`

`

`DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 30
`
`Page 32
`
`1 patent, speaking of the '933 specifically.
`2 The patent includes file history and analyze
`3 and determine whether or not it was validated
`4 by one or more prior art documents.
`5 Q. Did counsel for petitioners
`6 provide you with the prior art?
`7 A. I don't remember if they
`8 provided at least some of them. But that's
`9 entirely possible. I just don't remember
`10 which ones I came up with and which ones they
`11 may have provided.
`12 Q. Did you write your Expert
`13 Declaration that's in front of you right now?
`14 A. Yes, I did.
`15 Q. So you wrote the first draft of
`16 the Declaration?
`17 A. I wrote the first draft of the
`18 Declaration and then I wrote a lot more than
`19 that.
`20 Q. And when did you begin the work
`21 that led to your Expert Declarations in these
`22 IPRs?
`23 A. Very soon after I was retained.
`24 Q. And about how many hours did you
`
`1 A. The 1158. That would be the
`2 '868 patent. Right?
`3 Q. Yes, that's correct.
`4 A. It's here.
`5 Q. Do you have a copy -- okay. I'm
`6 going to designate that as Exhibit 2.
`7 - - -
`8 (Exhibit 0002, Declaration of
`9 Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes in Support of
`10 Petition for Inter Parties Review of
`11 U.S. Patent No. 7,460,868, marked for
`12 identification.)
`13 - - -
`14 BY MS. BERGER:
`15 Q. Dr. Kakaes, do you have -- do
`16 you now have a copy of your Declaration in the
`17 1158 IPR in front of you?
`18 A. Yes, I do.
`19 Q. Is that a complete copy of your
`20 Declaration?
`21 A. Like the previous one we
`22 discussed, it appears to be a complete copy.
`23 I have not checked it page for page, but it
`24 appears to be a complete copy.
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`Page 31
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`1 spend working on your Declarations?
`2 A. I don't remember. Between all
`3 six Declarations, I spent more time initially
`4 and some of them were changed later on because
`5 they were already related. So I don't
`6 remember the total number of hours.
`7 Q. Was it a significant number of
`8 hours?
`9 A. Not as significant in some cases
`10 and more significant than in other cases,
`11 so...
`12 Q. Would you say more than about
`13 50 hours?
`14 A. Yeah, I think probably more than
`15 50 hours is my guess.
`16 Q. Just to be clear, is that for
`17 all six IPRs?
`18 A. Yes. I'm thinking of that
`19 entire group.
`20 Q. Okay. So I think for the record
`21 I'd like for you to, please, locate the --
`22 locate the Declaration for the 1158 IPR. This
`23 might take a little bit, but there are six
`24 IPRs here.
`
`Page 33
`1 Q. Thank you. Does this Declaration
`2 contain all of your opinions relative to the
`3 '868 patent?
`4 A. It contains all of my opinions
`5 that I have opined on in this Declaration.
`6 Q. Do you have a copy of the
`7 Declaration for the 1159 IPR? This will be
`8 Exhibit 3.
`9 A. Yes, 1159. That's the '375
`10 patent.
`11 - - -
`12 (Exhibit 0003, Declaration of
`13 Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes in Support of
`14 Petition for Inter Parties Review of
`15 U.S. Patent No. 7,596,375, marked for
`16 identification.)
`17 - - -
`18 BY MS. BERGER:
`19 Q. And is this a complete copy of
`20 your Expert D