UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT AND TRIAL APPEAL BOARD
` - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`SNAP, INC., :
` Petitioner, :
` v. : Case IPR2021-0987
`PALO ALTO RESEARCH CENTER, : Patent No. 8,489,599
`INC., :
` Patent Owner.
` - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
` REMOTELY CONDUCTED DEPOSITION OF
` DAVID MARTIN, Ph.D.
` THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2022
` 9:01 A.M. CST
`
` JOB NO.: 445422
` PAGES: 1 - 133
` REPORTED BY: KARISA EKENSEAIR, CCR RPR
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`SNAP EXHIBIT 1021
`Snap Inc. v. Palo Alto Research Center Inc.
`IPR2021-00987
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`Page 1 of 133
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` BEFORE THE PATENT AND TRIAL APPEAL BOARD
` - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`SNAP, INC., :
` Petitioner, :
` v. : Case IPR2021-0987
`PALO ALTO RESEARCH CENTER, : Patent No. 8,489,599
`INC., :
` Patent Owner.
` - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
` REMOTELY CONDUCTED DEPOSITION OF
` DAVID MARTIN, Ph.D.
` THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2022
` 9:01 A.M. CST
`
` JOB NO.: 445422
` PAGES: 1 - 133
` REPORTED BY: KARISA EKENSEAIR, CCR RPR
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`SNAP EXHIBIT 1021
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`IPR2021-00987
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 21, 2022
`
`2
`
` DEPOSITION OF DAVID MARTIN, Ph.D., CONDUCTED VIA
`ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE.
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Karisa J.
`Ekenseair, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for
`the States of Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Illinois;
`National Registered Professional Reporter, Notary
`Public in and for the State of Arkansas.
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER (VIA ZOOM):
` JOSEPH PALYS, ESQUIRE
` ANDERSON TO, ESQUIRE.
` PAUL HASTINGS
` 2050 M STREET, NW
` WASHINGTON, DC 20036
` 202-551-1700
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER (VIA ZOOM):
`
` JAMES QUIGLEY, ESQUIRE
` MCKOOL SMITH
` 300 CRESCENT COURT
` DALLAS, TEXAS 75201
` 512-692-8720
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` RACHEL CARRICK, REMOTE TECHNICIAN
` CHRISTOPHER ATWOOD
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
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`4
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` T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
` PAGE
`STYLE AND NUMBER........................ 1
`APPEARANCES............................. 3
`
`WITNESS: DAVID MARTIN
`EXAMINATION BY MR. PALYS.............. 5
`
`CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER............... 132
`
` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
` (RETAINED BY COUNSEL)
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`2003 DECLARATION REGARDING YOUR
` OPINIONS RELATING TO U.S.
` PATENT NUMBER 8,489,599.......... 7
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
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`5
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE REPORTER: Will counsel please
`stipulate that in lieu of formally swearing in the
`witness, the reporter will instead ask the witness
`to acknowledge that their testimony will be true
`under penalties of perjury, that counsel will not
`object to the admissibility of the transcript
`based on proceeding in this way and that the
`witness has verified that they are, in fact, DAVID
`MARTIN, beginning with the noticing attorney,
`please?
` MR. PALYS: Petitioner agrees.
` MR. QUIGLEY: Patent owner agrees as well.
` DAVID MARTIN, Ph.D.
`of lawful age, being first duly sworn, deposes and
`says in reply to the questions propounded as
`follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q Good morning, again, Dr. Martin. How are
`you?
` A I'm fine. Thank you. Good morning.
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`6
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` Q Great. It's good to see you again. So
`today you understand you're being deposed
`regarding your opinions pertaining to your
`declaration that was submitted? IPR 2021-00987,
`correct?
` A That sounds correct to me.
` Q And I also understand that you have copies
`of your declaration and the materials that you
`identified in your declaration with you today,
`correct?
` A That is true. Yes. I have electronic
`copies.
` Q Electronic copies. Thank you.
` Do you have any hard copies, like
`yesterday, you had this listing of claim terms.
`Do you have something like that today?
` A Today I do have a printout. This is the
`print out. It's simply an extract of originally
`issued claims from the '599 patent from my
`declaration, together with the proposed substitute
`claims from my declaration. I pasted them
`together and created a new document with just that
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`7
`
`content.
` Q Thank you. I know you've been deposed
`before. We won't go through that, having
`cross-examined you yesterday, so you know how this
`will go.
` Is there any reason why you cannot provide
`truthful and accurate testimony today?
` A No, sir.
` Q Great. Obviously, let me know if you need
`a break. We'll take breaks as needed.
` If you can pull up a copy of your
`declaration for this 987 proceeding, I believe
`it's Exhibit 2003.
` A Yes. I have it.
` Q And Exhibit 2003 is your declaration
`regarding your opinions relating to U.S. Patent
`Number 8,489,599, correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And I'll refer to that patent today as the
`'599 patent. Okay?
` A Sounds good.
` Q Great. I guess, before we begin, like I
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`8
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`asked you yesterday, because this is a remote
`deposition, I have to confirm with you that you
`don't have any other applications open on your
`computer screen, other than what you need to
`facilitate this deposition, correct?
` A That's correct. That's correct. I have
`no applications other than are directly involved
`in the deposition.
` Q Do you have your phone with you?
` A No. My phone is not with me.
` Q As I asked you yesterday, I know you
`understand the rules, that you're to not speak
`with your attorney today regarding the substance
`of your deposition. And I ask, are you willing to
`follow those rules today?
` A Certainly, I am.
` Q I appreciate that, sir.
` All right, looking back at Exhibit 2003,
`if you go to the last page of your declaration,
`it's paragraph 107.
` A I see it. Yes.
` Q And is that your signature on page 170 of
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`9
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`your declaration -- that's page 173 of
`Exhibit 2003.
` A Yes. That is my signature.
` Q And when did you sign your declaration?
` A I signed this declaration on February 25th
`of 2022.
` Q Do you remember when -- what time during
`the day you signed your declaration?
` A I can only remember that it was roughly
`midday. I can't be any more accurate than that.
`I should say it would have been no later than
`midday, but, again, my memory is hazy on the clock
`on that day.
` Q Did you spend time to prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A Yes, I did.
` Q And how much time did you spend?
` A I'm imagining the range maybe of four to
`five hours, give or take. I didn't keep careful
`track of this.
` Q Did you review any documents to prepare
`for your deposition today?
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`10
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` A Yes, I did.
` Q What documents did you review?
` A I reviewed my declaration, Exhibit 2003.
`I reviewed the '599 patent. I believe I reviewed
`the Rosenberg and Suzuki prior art references.
`There may have been other documents that I looked
`at briefly, but I don't recall having spent
`significant time on other documents, although I
`didn't make an effort to keep track of the
`documents that I looked at either.
` Q Did you review any documents in
`preparation for your deposition today that are not
`identified in your declaration, in preparation for
`your -- yeah, in preparation for your deposition
`today?
` A I can't be sure because my declaration is
`long enough that I don't remember every document
`that I mentioned within it. However, when I look
`at the materials that I brought with me for this
`deposition today, including the exhibits that have
`been filed in -- in this matter, and the docketed
`papers that have been filed in this matter, that
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`11
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`seems to me to be the universe of things that I
`can remember possibly having looked at, nothing
`beyond those materials.
` Q Okay. With that, can you please turn to
`paragraph 17 of your declaration? That's on
`page -- starts on page 5, bridges page 5 and 6.
` A Yes. I do see that.
` Q And paragraph 17 provides a list of
`materials that you reviewed and considered and
`that you relied on to -- for your opinions in your
`declaration, correct?
` A Well, in 17, I list the materials that I
`reviewed and considered. And I'll note that the
`last item on this list is the additional materials
`mentioned below in this declaration. And that's
`why it's difficult for me to answer with
`confidence completely that list of everything that
`I may have looked at in preparation for the
`deposition as well in comparison to what I
`mentioned in my declaration.
` Q I appreciate that.
` I guess all I was asking is: Is the list
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
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`12
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`that's provided in 17, including your
`identification on Item I, the list of materials
`that you reviewed and considered to support your
`opinions in your declaration?
` A My intent in assembling this list was to
`list the materials that I reviewed and considered
`in preparation of my declaration that were
`meaningful to -- or potentially meaningful to the
`conclusions that I express in the declaration.
` When you say -- in your question included
`the phrase, to support my conclusions, I did not
`choose these references in order to
`specifically -- in order to specifically justify
`any conclusions. This is a list of the references
`that I -- that I considered in the process of
`forming my conclusions.
` So I just -- I don't recognize that term.
`It seems a very legal term that maybe I don't
`fully understand. That's why --
` Q It wasn't. Yeah. I think your answer is
`basically what I'm getting at.
` You relied on these -- these materials in
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`13
`
`paragraph 17 in forming your opinions in your
`declaration. That's basically all I'm getting at.
` A I understand.
` Q So is the list in paragraph 17 a complete
`list of materials that you considered in
`connection with your opinions in your declaration?
` A My intent in assembling this list was it
`to be as complete as possible list of materials
`that were -- that bore most directly on the
`conclusions that I express in the declaration.
`But of course, I did not list all of the materials
`that I've considered throughout my career that
`have formed my knowledge of the area in question.
` Q Can you please turn to paragraph 44 of
`your declaration? That's on page 40.
` A Yes, I see it.
` Q In paragraph 44, you say, in performing my
`analysis, I applied the plain and ordinary meaning
`of the claims; is that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q Did you apply the plain and ordinary
`meaning to the terms of the claims in the original
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 21, 2022
`
`14
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`claims for the '599 patent?
` A As I sit here recalling my declaration,
`yes. I -- in my analysis of the claims
`in -- originally issued in the '599 patent, I
`applied the plain and ordinary meaning of the
`terms within those claims from my understanding of
`them.
` Q And did you apply the plain and ordinary
`meaning to the terms of the claims in the
`substitute claims for the '599 patent?
` A Yes. That was how I proceeded with the
`substitute claims as well. I proceeded in the
`same manner as with the original claims.
` Q You have a copy of the claims in front of
`you, in hard copy form.
` But in paragraph 52, which is on page 30
`of your declaration, you introduce the proposed
`substitute claims, correct?
` A Yes. Following paragraph 52, that's
`correct.
` Q And you understand that the underlying
`text that's included in the substitute claims is
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 21, 2022
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`15
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`claim limitations that are proposed to be added to
`the original claims, correct?
` MR. QUIGLEY: Objection; form.
` A That's substantially what I explain in
`paragraph 52. Text that is struck through or
`enclosed in brackets is proposed to be removed
`from the original claims and underlined text is
`proposed to be added to the original claims.
` Q On page 31 of your declaration, next page,
`you produced the proposed substitute claim 26
`substitute for claim 1 which recites, among other
`things, this receiving step, which is second step:
`Receiving a set of contextual information with
`respect to the first user and the added languages
`and the first device and a wherein clause,
`correct?
` A It -- it actually reads to a first user of
`a first device.
` Q Okay. I read on page 31, claim 26, the
`second receiving step as, receiving a set of
`contextual information with respect to the first
`user and the first device; is that --
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`16
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` A Oh, I do see that reference there. I, of
`course, was reading from the preamble. I started
`at the beginning of the claim.
` Q Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The second receiving
`step.
` A I do see that reference in the receiving
`step. Yes.
` Q That same proposed amendment including
`"and the first device" is found in substitute
`claims 33, which I think is on page 35, and
`substitute claim 37, which I believe is on
`page 37, correct? Let me rephrase it.
` The same proposed amendment that we see in
`claim 26 is in the substitute claim 33 on page 35,
`correct?
` A The proposed substitute claim 33 shown in
`my declaration does also include the proposed
`additional limitations of a first device and the
`corresponding "the first device."
` Q Yeah. Just to be clear, claim 33 --
`proposed substitute claim 33 states, receiving a
`set of contextual information with respect to the
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`17
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`first user, and then, "and the first device" has
`been added, correct?
` A Yes. The phrase "and the first device" is
`part of the proposed amendment of claim 33.
` Q And on page 37 for proposed claim 37, that
`claim recites, an input mechanism configured to
`receive a set of contextual information with
`respect to the first user. And again, "and the
`first device" has been added, correct?
` A That's correct. In claim 37, the phrase
`"and the first device" is proposed for addition.
` Q All right. So let's use claim 26, if you
`can jump back up to page 31. We'll use that as
`the base for my questions. Let me know when
`you're there.
` A Yes. I see it.
` Q Okay. What is the plain meaning of
`contextual information with respect to the first
`user and the first device as recited in the
`substitute claims that you apply in support of
`your opinions?
` MR. QUIGLEY: Objection; form.
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` A I would say the contextual information
`with respect to the first user and the first
`device that is mentioned in claim -- proposed
`claim 26 is that contextual information that was
`gathered on the first device regarding the user.
` Q Does the plain meaning of contextual
`information with respect to the first device
`and -- I'm sorry, start over.
` Does the plain meaning of contextual
`information with respect to the first user and the
`first device, as you interpreted that term,
`require the same contextual information to relate
`to both the first users and the first device?
` MR. QUIGLEY: Objection; form.
` A I would say that is a logical consequence
`of the plain and ordinary meaning of the term
`contextual information, with respect to the first
`user and the first device in the proposed claim 26
`because the contextual information being gathered
`at the first device regarding the first user is
`information that relates to both the first user
`and the first device.
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`19
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` Q So does location information relating to
`the first device, would that be contextual
`information with respect to the first user and the
`first device under the plain meaning that you
`apply?
` MR. QUIGLEY: Objection; form.
` A I'm looking at the '599 patent at column 4
`starting at line 32, which is one discussion of
`low-level contextual information. In this
`discussion, it states that during operation, the
`content management system can gather low-level
`contextual information from a number of input
`sources, for example, a global positioning system,
`GPS device, or an accelerometer which reflects
`basic information associated with the user.
` So I consider a global positioning system,
`a GPS device, a form of location information. So
`to that extent, I would agree that location
`information can be an example of contextual
`information that is gathered with respect to the
`first user and the first device, as described in
`proposed claim 26, as one example of a piece of
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`20
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`contextual information.
` Q Original claims, if you can go up to
`original claim 1, which, I believe, is on page 19
`of your declaration? Let me know when you're
`there.
` A I see it.
` Q And right at the bottom of page 19, claim
`1 recites receiving a set of contextual
`information with respect to the first user.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q So what is the plain meaning of contextual
`information with respect to the first user as
`recited in the original claim that you applied for
`your declaration?
` A In claim 1 in the receiving step, the
`plain and ordinary meaning of the term contextual
`information with respect to the first user is the
`contextual information regarding the first user.
` Q So in that -- the '599 patent where you
`took me to earlier, it was column 4, I believe,
`line 32, in that framework, would location
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`Conducted on April 21, 2022
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`21
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`information that's gathered by the -- the device,
`would that constitute contextual information with
`respect to the first user under your
`interpretation of the original claims?
` A Along the same lines, I would understand
`location information, such as the GPS information
`cited here in column 4, to be an example of one
`element of contextual information that describes
`or regards a first user that is part of the set of
`contextual information in the receiving
`limitation.
` Q Let's go back to substitute claim 26,
`page 31 of your declaration.
` Let me know when you're there.
` A Yes. I see it.
` Q Thank you. Substitute claim 26 includes
`this additional language which is recited as,
`wherein, the set of contextual information
`includes contextual information from two or more
`different types of input sources, correct?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q And I believe claim 33 on page 35 of your
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`declaration includes a similar or the same added
`features, correct?
` A Yes. There is a similar clause proposed
`for amendment in claim 33.
` Q And likewise, in claim 37 on page 37 of
`your dec, that claim also recites, wherein, in the
`set of contextual information includes contextual
`information from two or more different types of
`input sources, correct?
` A That's correct. Yes, it does.
` Q So jump back up to claim 26, page 31.
` A Okay.
` Q And my question is: Within that clause,
`what is the plain meaning of input sources that
`you applied as recited in the substitute claims?
` A You've asked specifically about the term
`contextual information from two or more different
`types of input sources. Do I have that right?
` Q No. My question is very specific within
`that.
` What's the plain meaning of input sources?
` A Oh, thank you.
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` Q That you apply. Yeah. No problem.
` A I would say the plain and ordinary meaning
`of input sources as used in the proposed claim 26
`is that the input sources are components that
`provide contextual information to the device. And
`a person of ordinary skill would use that
`understanding in conjunction with, for example,
`the specific list of input sources given in column
`5, starting with the sentence at line 36, which
`lists a number of input sources, for example, a
`microphone, a camera, a motion sensor, a global
`positioning mechanism, or an internet server.
` Q Regarding the term contextual information
`includes contextual information from two or more
`different types of input sources, in particular,
`what is the plain meaning of different types of
`input sources that you applied to support your
`opinions?
` A The type of input source as that term is
`used in claim 26 refers to the component from
`which the input is obtained. So in the example
`list of input sources from column 5, the
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`Transcript of David Martin, Ph.D.
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`24
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`microphone and the camera are examples of two
`different types of input sources because they are
`different components as identified in this list.
` Q Just a -- I'll ask, what makes an input
`source a different type from another input source
`in the context of the '599 patent? Is that it's a
`different component?
` A Yes. Because the different components
`produce different types of information. A
`microphone produces audio information. A camera
`produces video information, and so on. So yes,
`there is a relationship between the component
`that -- that gathers the underlying information
`and the type of that information.
` Q So a type of input source could be like an
`accelerometer, correct, in the context of the '599
`patent?
` A Yes. In the area of column 4 we were
`previously looking at, it also discusses an
`accelerometer as an input source.
` Q Would a gyroscope be an input source
`that's different -- a different type of input
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`source from the accelerometer under your
`interpretation of the term?
` A I guess I would want to look at the
`components a little more closely. I haven't
`formed an opinion on that and I -- sitting here
`right now, I don't know that I understand the
`presentation of those devices well enough to be
`able to answer. They sound like different devices
`to me. But again, I haven't -- I haven't studied
`this or formed an opinion for my declaration on
`it.
` Q In substitute claim 26 on page -- well,
`starts on 31. There it is.
` Yeah. On page 31, substitute claim 26
`toward the bottom recites this limitation,
`processing the contextual information to determine
`a current context for the first user and the first
`device, correct?
` A That's correct. Yes.
` Q And substitute claims -- substitute claim
`33 cites similar limitations, correct, on page 35
`of your declaration?
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` A Yes. That looks similar to me.
` Q And on page 38 of your declaration,
`substitute claim 37 recites, a context manager
`configured to process the contextual information
`to determine a current context for the first user
`and first device, correct?
` A Yes. It does.
` Q Okay. Jump back up to claim 26. And my
`question is: What is the plain meaning for the
`first user and the first device that you applied
`for your opinions in your declaration?
` A The plain meaning of current context for
`the first user and the first device as it appears
`in the processing limitation of proposed claim 26
`is the current context regarding the first user or
`about the first user that is gathered from the
`first device.
` Q What's the plain meaning of current
`context that you applied in your -- in your
`declaration?
` A I'm referring now to column 7 of the '599
`patent, starting at line 36, which explains what a
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`context is. And here it states that a context is
`a set of data that describes an event or
`environmental factor associated with the user or
`the operational environment of Content Management
`System 100.
` In the claim you asked about, the phrase
`"current context" refers to a context that is such
`a set of data, but it regards the current
`situation being described by that context.
` Q In the plain meaning -- the plain meaning
`of current context for the first user and first
`device, including the plain meaning of current
`context that you just described with respect to
`claim 26, are those the same plain meanings you
`applied as terms are used in substitute claim 33
`and 37?
` A Yes. That's the same meaning in all three
`of the proposed substitute claims.
` Q All right.
` MR. PALYS: Let's -- not quite an hour,
`but close enough. Let's take a quick ten-minute
`break and we'll get started again.
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` THE WITNESS: Sounds good. Thanks.
` (Whereupon a break was had.)
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q Original claims -- sir, original claims 1,
`2, and 19, they all include the term "expected
`response," correct?
` A Did you say claim 2?
` Q Original claims 1, 12, and 19. All the
`independent claims of the original claim set, they
`each include the term "expected response,"
`correct?
` A Yes, they do.
` Q If you could please turn to
`paragraph -- well, starting at paragraph 32, but
`page 153 of your declaration and let me know when
`you're there.
` A I'm sorry, I misheard the numbers.
` Q Paragraph 72, starting on page 153 of your
`declaration. Let me know when you're there.
` A Yeah. I see it now.
` Q Okay. In paragraph -- well, right above
`paragraph 72, there's a section heading that says,
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`the plain meaning of the original claims requires
`that a determination be made for an unexpected
`response, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And in paragraph 72 through paragraph 91,
`which is found on 163, provides your opinions
`relating to that heading, correct?
` A Yes. Following 91, a new heading appears.
` Q In paragraph 77 of your declaration, which
`is found on page 155, you state that without
`requiring the ability to receive both expected and
`unexpected response, the limitation is superfluous
`and that if the determining limitation does not
`require the ability to receive both expected and
`unexpected responses, the limitation would be read
`out of the claim completely, correct?
` A I state it slightly differently with --
`in terms of words, but yes, that's -- that's
`the -- consistent with what I state in
`paragraph 77.
` Q In paragraph 86, which is found on
`page 160 of your declaration, you provide your
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`opinion based on the specification of the '599
`patent that the plain meaning of the '599 patent's
`independent claims require that existence of both
`expected and unexpected responses, correct?
` MR. QUIGLEY: Objection; form.
` A My paragraph 86 states, based on my review
`of the '599 patent specification, all discussion
`in the '599 patent specification related to these
`determining and performing limitations is
`consistent with the plain meaning of the '599
`patent's independent claims requiring the
`existence of both expected and unexpected
`responses.
` Q When you state, is consistent with the
`plain meaning of the '599 patent's independent
`claims requiring the existence of both expected
`and unexpected responses, what limitation or
`limitations in the original claims are you
`referring to?
` A As I just read from paragraph 86, this is
`most directed to the limitations in, for example,
`claim 1 of determining whether the received
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`31
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`response matches the expected response and
`performing an action based on an outcome of this
`determination.
` Q What do you mean by -- sorry. We did it
`again. Go ahead.
` A So I think that's where it's most directly
`visible in the claims, but it may impact other
`limitations as well.
` Q What do you mean by the existence of both
`expected and unexpected responses in your
`statement in paragraph 86 of your declaration?
` A This refers to what I'm describing in this
`section that started on page 153 that you called
`out section -- subsection 1, the plain meaning of
`the original claims requires that a determination
`be made for an unexpected response.
` So when I state in paragraph 86, the
`existence of both expected and unexpected
`responses, I'm referring to the capability of the
`system to determine whether the received response
`matches the expected received response, which also
`requires the system being able to determine
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`whether the received response does not match the
`expected response.
` That's what it means for it to be an
`unexpected response, and that the subsequent
`performing limitation depends on the outcome of
`that determination.
` Q
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