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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 1
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`__________________________
`BLUEBIRD BIO, INC.
`) Case No. IPR2023-00070
`Petitioner,
`) Patent No. 7,541,179
` v. )
`SLOAN KETTERING INSTITUTE ) Case No. IPR2023-00074
`FOR CANCER RESEARCH, ) Patent No. 8,058,061
`Patent Owner. )
`__________________________)
`
`DEPOSITION OF STEFANO RIVELLA
`Monday, September 25, 2023
`Fox Rothschild LLP
`2000 Market Street, 20th Floor
`Philadelphia, PA 19103
`8:55 a.m.
`REPORTED STENOGRAPHICALLY BY:
`Jennifer Miller, RMR, CRR, CCR-NJ, CCR-WA,
`CCR-NM
`Notary Public: NY, DE, PA, NY
`______________________________________________________
`DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
`1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
`Washington, D.C. 20036
`(202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`BLUEBIRD EXHIBIT 1051
`bluebird v. SKI
`IPR2023-00074
`
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`Page 2
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`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`Attorneys for Petitioner
`PAUL HASTINGS LLP
`BY: MAX H. YUSEM, ESQ.
`200 Park Avenue
`New York, NY 10166
`(212) 318-6375
`maxyusem@paulhastings.com
`
`Attorneys for Sloan Kettering
`WILMERHALE
`BY: TIMOTHY COOK, ESQ.
`60 State Street
`Boston, Massachusetts 02109
`(617) 526-6005
`tim.cook@wilmerhale.com
`
`Attorneys for San Rocco Therapeutics
`FOX ROTHSCHILD LLP
`BY: JOE CHEN, PH.D., ESQ.
`997 Lenox Drive
`Lawrenceville, NJ 08648-2311
`(609) 896-3600
`joechen@foxrothschild.com
`-and-
`FOX ROTHSCHILD LLP
`BY: WANDA FRENCH-BROWN, ESQ.
`101 Park Avenue, 17th Floor
`New York, NY 10178
`(646) 601-7617
`wfrench-brown@foxrothschild.com
`
`Also present: Vincent Falcetano, Videographer
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 3
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` I N D E X
`EXAMINATION PAGE
`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM 5
`BY ATTORNEY CHEN 202
` E X H I B I T S
`Previously Marked Page
`Exhibit 2008 Declaration of Stefano 9
` Rivella in Support of
` Patent Owner's Preliminary
` Response
`Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent Number 11
` 7,541,179 and U.S Patent
` Number 8,058,061
`Exhibit 1005 Nature article 68
`Exhibit 1032 Prosecution history of '179 95
` patent
`Exhibit 1034 Provisional Application for 102
` Patent, 06/301,861
`Exhibit 1035 Provisional Application for 102
` Patent, 06/302,852
`Exhibit 2034 Excerpts from Inventor 169
` Notebooks
`Exhibit 2033 Excerpts from Inventor 177
` Notebooks
`Exhibit 1006 May abstract 178
`
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 08:54:40
`
` This is File Number 1 of the videotaped 08:54:42
`
` deposition of Stefano Rivella taken in the 08:54:45
`
` matter of United States Patent and 08:54:49
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` Trademark Office before the Patent Trial 08:54:52
`
` and Appeal Board, bluebird bio, Inc., 08:54:54
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` petitioner, versus Sloan Kettering 08:54:57
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` Institute for Cancer Research, Patent 08:55:00
`
` Owner, Case Number IPR2023-00070. 08:55:03
`
` This deposition is being held at 08:55:12
`
` Fox Rothschild, 2000 Market Street in 08:55:14
`
` Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 08:55:18
`
` Today's date is September 25th, 08:55:19
`
` 2023, and the time on the video monitor is 08:55:22
`
` 8:55 a.m. 08:55:25
`
` My name is Vincent Falcetano. 08:55:26
`
` I'm the videographer. The Court Reporter 08:55:27
`
` is Jen Miller. We are both from Digital 08:55:30
`
` Evidence Group. 08:55:33
`
` Will counsel please state their 08:55:34
`
` appearances for the record. 08:55:36
`
` ATTORNEY YUSEM: Yes. This is 08:55:38
`
` Max Yusem from Paul Hastings for 08:55:39
`
` petitioner. 08:55:42
`
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 5
` And for the record, this 08:55:42
`
` deposition is for IPR Number 2023-007 as 08:55:44
`
` well as IPR Number 2023-00074. 08:55:50
`
` Counsel, you agree with that? 08:55:56
`
` ATTORNEY CHEN: 70, right? 08:55:58
`
` ATTORNEY YUSEM: Yes. 70 and 08:56:05
`
` 74, both IPRs. 08:56:06
`
` ATTORNEY CHEN: Yes. 08:56:08
`
` Joe Chen, from Fox Rothschild, 08:56:08
`
` representing San Rocco Therapeutics and 08:56:09
`
` with me is Wanda French-Brown. 08:56:12
`
` ATTORNEY COOK: Timothy Cook 08:56:21
`
` from WilmerHale for Sloan Kettering. 08:56:21
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will you the 08:56:23
`
` Court Reporter please swear in the 08:56:24
`
` witness. 08:56:24
`
` STEFANO RIVELLA, after 08:56:25
`
` having been first duly sworn, was 08:56:25
`
` examined and testified as follows: 08:56:25
`
` - - - 08:56:25
`
` E X A M I N A T I O N 08:56:25
`
` - - - 08:56:25
`
`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 08:56:34
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Rivella. 08:56:36
`
` Have you been deposed before? 08:56:37
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 6
` A. No. My first time. 08:56:39
`
` Q. So just to make sure we're on the 08:56:41
`
`same page, I just want to cover a few of the 08:56:42
`
`basics. 08:56:45
`
` If you don't understand any of 08:56:46
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`my questions, can you please just let me know? 08:56:50
`
` A. Sure. 08:56:53
`
` Q. Okay. So if you answer the question, 08:56:53
`
`I'm going to assume that you understood the 08:56:54
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`question. 08:56:56
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` And for the sake of the 08:56:57
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`reporter, it's best that we try not to talk 08:56:58
`
`over each other so can do my question and then 08:57:00
`
`you can do your answer. 08:57:03
`
` A. Okay. 08:57:04
`
` Q. And if you need to take a break at 08:57:04
`
`any time, please let us know. I just ask that 08:57:06
`
`you answer any question that's pending before 08:57:09
`
`we take a break. 08:57:12
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` A. Okay. 08:57:13
`
` Q. Is there any reason that you're not 08:57:14
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`going to be able to provide complete and 08:57:15
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`truthful testimony today? 08:57:19
`
` A. No. 08:57:20
`
` Q. How did you prepare for today's 08:57:21
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 7
`deposition? 08:57:22
`
` A. I basically had a chance to read the 08:57:22
`
`documents and discuss it. 08:57:30
`
` Q. Which documents did you read? 08:57:35
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Objection. 08:57:36
`
` Privileged. 08:57:37
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` THE WITNESS: No. It's 08:57:37
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` privileged confidential information. 08:57:41
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 08:57:41
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` Q. Who did you meet with in preparation 08:57:41
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`for today's deposition? 08:57:45
`
` A. I meet with Joe and Wanda. 08:57:46
`
` Q. Anyone else? 08:57:53
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` A. No. 08:57:53
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` Q. Did you meet with -- so just to make 08:57:55
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`sure my question is clear, did you meet with 08:57:57
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`anyone else in preparation for today's 08:57:58
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`deposition? 08:58:00
`
` A. No. 08:58:02
`
` Q. How long did you meet with Joe and 08:58:05
`
`Wanda in preparation for today's deposition? 08:58:07
`
` A. Several hours. I don't recall exact 08:58:11
`
`time -- the full amount of time, but... 08:58:14
`
` Q. And let me ask: Did you review any 08:58:22
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`documents in preparation for your deposition 08:58:26
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 8
`apart from your declaration and documents cited 08:58:28
`
`in your declaration? 08:58:31
`
` ATTORNEY CHEN: Objection. 08:58:33
`
` Privileged. 08:58:34
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 08:58:40
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` Q. It's a yes-or-no question. 08:58:40
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` A. It's privileged information. 08:58:43
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` ATTORNEY YUSEM: Joe, it's a 08:58:44
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` yes-or-no question. 08:58:44
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: You may answer. 08:58:46
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` THE WITNESS: No. 08:58:46
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 08:58:47
`
` Q. Okay. Thank you. 08:58:47
`
` And you understand you're here 08:58:48
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`today to discuss the declaration you submitted 08:58:54
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`in two IPR proceedings; is that right? 08:58:57
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` A. Yes. 08:59:03
`
` Q. Okay. And you prepared just one 08:59:03
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`declaration, and that same declaration was 08:59:04
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`submitted in both proceedings? 08:59:06
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` A. Can you -- can you break the question 08:59:10
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`in one question? 08:59:14
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` Q. Yeah. Maybe it will help if I give 08:59:16
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`you a copy of your declaration. 08:59:18
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` Do you have any documents here 08:59:19
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`Page 9
`with you today? 08:59:20
`
` A. No. 08:59:21
`
` ATTORNEY YUSEM: Okay. So I'm 08:59:21
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` going to hand you what's Exhibit 2008. 08:59:22
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` Joe, you want a copy? 08:59:32
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Yes, please. 08:59:34
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` - - - 08:59:35
`
` (Whereupon, Exhibit 2008 was 08:59:35
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` previously marked for identification.) 08:59:35
`
` - - - 08:59:35
`
` ATTORNEY YUSEM: It's previously 08:59:40
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` marked. 08:59:42
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` THE WITNESS: So can you repeat 08:59:52
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` the question, please. 08:59:53
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 08:59:54
`
` Q. Yeah. So, Dr. Rivella, I've handed 08:59:54
`
`you Exhibit 2008, which is titled "Declaration 08:59:56
`
`of Stefano Rivella in Support of Patent Owner's 08:59:59
`
`Preliminary Response." 09:00:02
`
` Do you see that? 09:00:03
`
` A. Yes, I do. 09:00:04
`
` Q. Is this the declaration that you 09:00:04
`
`prepared for the -- both IPR proceedings? 09:00:06
`
` A. I recall preparing this declaration. 09:00:19
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` And so here, this IPR0070, 09:00:21
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`Page 10
`right? 09:00:30
`
` Q. Uh-hum. 09:00:30
`
` A. So I see this was prepared for that 09:00:30
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`declaration, right -- for that IPR? 09:00:35
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` Q. Correct. And this -- I'm not -- this 09:00:39
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`isn't a trick question or anything. I'm 09:00:39
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`just -- this same document was submitted in 09:00:41
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`both proceedings, and I'm just wondering if you 09:00:43
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`prepared another version of this declaration or 09:00:49
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`if this is the only declaration that you 09:00:51
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`prepared. 09:00:53
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` A. Oh. This is the only decoration. 09:00:53
`
` Q. Okay. Okay. 09:00:55
`
` And you understand that the two 09:00:55
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`IPR proceedings relate to two of your 09:00:57
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`patents -- two separate patents that you are an 09:01:01
`
`inventor on? 09:01:05
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` A. Yes. There are two patents, and my 09:01:08
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`name is on those patents. 09:01:09
`
` ATTORNEY YUSEM: Okay. So I'm 09:01:12
`
` just going to hand you those patents now 09:01:16
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` just so we can have a frame of reference. 09:01:18
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` The first one is marked 09:01:20
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` Exhibit 1001. It is U.S. Patent 09:01:22
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` Number 7,541,179. 09:01:26
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`Page 11
` The other one, unfortunately, is 09:01:35
`
` also Exhibit 1001, but this one is 09:01:41
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` U.S. Patent Number 8,058,061. 09:01:43
`
` - - - 09:01:48
`
` (Whereupon, Exhibit 1001 was 09:01:48
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` previously marked for identification.) 09:01:48
`
` - - - 09:01:48
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` THE WITNESS: Thank you. 09:01:51
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:01:57
`
` Q. Dr. Rivella, you see both of those 09:01:57
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`patents in front of you? 09:01:58
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` A. Yes, I do. 09:02:00
`
` Q. And do you understand that the two 09:02:00
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`IPR proceedings relate to these two patents? 09:02:01
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` A. I do. 09:02:04
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` Q. Okay. Is it okay if we refer to the 09:02:06
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`one as the '179 and the other one as the '061? 09:02:08
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` A. Yes. 09:02:12
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` Q. Okay. And you understand that your 09:02:12
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`answers today will apply to both proceedings 09:02:14
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`unless we specify otherwise? 09:02:17
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Objection. 09:02:30
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` Form. 09:02:30
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` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if I 09:02:32
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` understand what you're referring to. 09:02:33
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`Page 12
` Because I think I'm -- I can 09:02:33
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` talk about my declaration, right. I'm not 09:02:36
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` sure if I can answer every single question 09:02:42
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` about the patent. 09:02:43
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:02:44
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` Q. Okay. How about this? 09:02:44
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` If there's an answer that you 09:02:45
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`think only applies to one patent and not the 09:02:46
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`other, can you let me know? 09:02:49
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` A. To the extent that I understand and I 09:02:51
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`remember correctly. 09:02:52
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` Q. Is that okay? 09:02:53
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` A. I guess it depends on the question. 09:02:56
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` Q. And taking a look at the face of your 09:03:01
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`patents, these were assigned from yourself and 09:03:04
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`your other coinventors to Memorial Sloan 09:03:07
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`Kettering? 09:03:10
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` A. Yes. 09:03:12
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Objection. Call 09:03:13
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` for legal conclusion. 09:03:14
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:03:21
`
` Q. Okay. Do you know who you assigned 09:03:22
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`your patent rights to for the '179 and '061 09:03:23
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`patents? 09:03:26
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Same objection. 09:03:27
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`Page 13
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if I 09:03:30
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` understand completely what you're asking 09:03:32
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` me. 09:03:33
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:03:33
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` Q. Do you understand that in the United 09:03:33
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`States, an inventor, when they create something 09:03:37
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`and they file for a patent, their rights are 09:03:39
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`their own unless they assign them to somebody 09:03:42
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`else? 09:03:45
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` A. Yes, I understand that. 09:03:51
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` Q. Who did you assign -- did you ever 09:03:51
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`assign your rights in the '179 and '061 patent 09:03:52
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`to anyone else, either a person or a company? 09:03:56
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` A. I have to say this -- this happened a 09:04:01
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`long time ago. I can't remember the procedures 09:04:02
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`after that. 09:04:07
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` I remember being an inventor on 09:04:07
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`this patent and assigning for the patent, but I 09:04:09
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`don't remember what happened after that. 09:04:11
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` Q. Right. So you don't remember who you 09:04:13
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`assigned the patent to? 09:04:14
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` A. Right. 09:04:16
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` Q. Oh, that's fine. 09:04:16
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` Do you know the company 09:04:23
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`San Rocco Therapeutics or SRT? 09:04:24
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 14
` A. I'm aware of. 09:04:26
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` Q. Yeah. Do you know that that company 09:04:27
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`was previously called Errant Gene Therapeutics 09:04:29
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`or EGT? 09:04:33
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Calls for 09:04:34
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` speculation. Objection. 09:04:35
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` THE WITNESS: I can google it to 09:04:43
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` find out, but I -- 09:04:43
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:04:44
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` Q. You don't need to -- just do you 09:04:44
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`know? Yes or no? You don't know? 09:04:46
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` A. I don't remember honestly, yes. 09:04:48
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` Q. Have you ever heard of a company 09:04:49
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`called Errant Gene Therapeutics? 09:04:50
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Objection. 09:04:54
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` Scope. 09:04:55
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` THE WITNESS: I don't remember, 09:04:56
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` honestly. 09:04:56
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:04:57
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` Q. Okay. In your mind, is there a 09:04:57
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`difference between Memorial Sloan Kettering, 09:05:08
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`MSK, and then SKI? 09:05:11
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` I just -- I want to be able to 09:05:14
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`refer to it today, and I don't want to be -- 09:05:16
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` A. I see. 09:05:19
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`Page 15
` Q. Yeah. 09:05:19
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` -- referring to one and not the 09:05:19
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`other. 09:05:21
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` A. I have a vague memory. One is a 09:05:21
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`scientific research entity, and other one is 09:05:24
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`something different, maybe clinic. But I don't 09:05:28
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`remember. 09:05:33
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` - - - 09:05:33
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` (Stenographer clarification.) 09:05:33
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` - - - 09:05:33
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` THE WITNESS: Maybe one is a 09:05:33
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` scientific entity and other one is a 09:05:33
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` clinic, but I'm not sure. 09:05:33
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:05:36
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` Q. So the work -- so we're going to be 09:05:36
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`discussing your work on the TNS9 vector today. 09:05:38
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` When you were doing that work, 09:05:42
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`was that for MSK, Memorial Sloan Kettering? 09:05:43
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` A. I have to say I don't remember at 09:05:54
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`that time. Because, you know, sometimes we use 09:05:55
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`the -- in this case, sometimes, we use the word 09:05:57
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`"MSK." Sometimes we use the word "Sloan 09:05:59
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`Kettering." 09:06:01
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` And that was, to me, just 09:06:01
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`confusing. 09:06:04
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 16
` Q. Okay. So is it okay if I just refer 09:06:05
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`to Memorial Sloan Kettering today as opposed 09:06:06
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`to -- 09:06:08
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` A. Yeah. 09:06:08
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` Q. Is there a better way to refer to it 09:06:08
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`so you don't -- 09:06:10
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` A. Just say Memorial Sloan Kettering. 09:06:11
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`That's fine. 09:06:11
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` Q. Okay. Are you aware that SRT or 09:06:14
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`San Rocco Therapeutics was assigned your -- 09:06:18
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`was -- has an exclusive license to your 09:06:20
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`patents, the '179 and the '061 patents? 09:06:24
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` ATTORNEY CHEN: Objection. 09:06:28
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` Scope. Objection. Call for speculation. 09:06:28
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` THE WITNESS: When I left 09:06:32
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` Memorial, I didn't follow what happened 09:06:37
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` after that, honestly. So... 09:06:38
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`BY ATTORNEY YUSEM: 09:06:40
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` Q. All right. You don't know? 09:06:40
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` A. I don't know. 09:06:41
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` Q. Okay. Who did you prepare the 09:06:41
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`declaration in this case, Exhibit 2008, at the 09:06:47
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`request of? 09:06:52
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` A. I was asked, basically, by Fox to -- 09:06:58
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`if I were willing to basically provide my 09:07:02
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`bluebird bio, Inc. v. Sloan Kettering Institute for Cancer Research Stefano Rivella
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`Page 17
`memories about this. 09:07:09
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` Q. So it w