In the Matter Of:
`
`BowmarArchery v Veterans Innovative
`
`IPR2024-00401
`
`1341 Moreland Ave, SE
`Suite 2000
`Atlanta, GA 30316
`855.478.7376
`
`Todd Kuhn PH.D.
`
`September 06, 2024
`
`US|
`
`REPORTING
`
`Bowmar, Ex. 1040
`Bowmar v. Matthew Futtere
`
`Bowmar, Ex. 1040
`Bowmar v. Matthew Futtere
`IPR2024-00401
`
`

`

`Page 1
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`·1
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`·2
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`·3
`· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · ·______________________
`·5
`· · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · ·______________________
`·7
`
`·8· · · · · · BOWMAR ARCHERY, LLC, Petitioner,
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`
`10· · VETERANS INNOVATIVE PRODUCTS, LLC, Patent Owner.
`
`11· · · · · · · · ·______________________
`
`12· · · · · · · · · Patent No. 8,043,177
`· · · · · · · · ·Filing Date: July 7, 2008
`13· · · · · · · Issue Date: October 25, 2011
`
`14· ·Title: ARROWHEAD HAVING COLLAPSIBLE AND OUTWARDLY
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·BIASED BLADES
`15
`· · · · · ·Inter Partes Review No.: IPR2024-00401
`16
`· · · · · · ·PATENT OWNERS NOTICE OF DEPOSITION
`17· · OF TODD KUHN, PH.D. PURSUANT TO 37 C.F.R.· 42.53
`
`18· · · · · ·DATE TAKEN: Friday, September 6, 2024
`
`19· · · · · · TIME: 9:00 a.m. CST to 1:57 p.m. CST
`
`20· · · · · · · · ·PLACE:· ALL PARTIES REMOTE
`
`21
`
`22· · · · · · Stenographically Reported By:
`
`23· · · · · · · Lisa M. Sparling, RPR, FPR,
`· · · · · Notary Public, State of Florida at Large
`24
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`25
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`

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`·1· · ·APPEARANCES FOR THE PETITIONER
`·2· · · · · · ·BANNER WITCOFF
`· · · · · Jason S. Shull, Esquire
`·3· ·71 South Wacker Drive, Suite 3600
`· · · · · · ·Chicago, IL 60606
`·4· · · · · · (312) 463-5000
`· · · · · jshull@bannerwitcoff.com
`·5
`·6
`· · · APPEARANCES FOR THE PATENT OWNER
`·7
`· · · · · ·MCKINNIE & PAUL, PLLC
`·8· · · ·Jason E. McKinnie, Esquire
`· · · 8610 N. New Braunfels, Suite 320
`·9· · · · San Antonio, Texas 78217
`· · · · · · · ·(210) 247-2220
`10· · · ·jmckinnie@mckinniepaul.com
`11
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`Page 2
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`Page 3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·E X A M I N A T I O N
`· · ·Witness Name· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page· Line
`·2
`· · ·TODD A. KUHN, PHD
`·3
`· · · · Direct By ATTORNEY MCKINNIE:· ................. 4· · ·6
`·4
`·5
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ~ooOOoo~
`·7
`·8
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`10
`· · ·EXHIBIT· · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE· LINE
`11
`· · ·Exhibit 1· ·Bowmar Archery Exhibit 1019 - Kuhn ... 5· · ·16
`12· · · · · · · ·Report
`13· ·Exhibit 2· ·Kuhn Letter Infringement Threat ...... 41· · 14
`14· ·Exhibit 3· ·Patent number 6,918,848 .............. 44· · 13
`15· ·Exhibit 4· ·Chapter 8 - Shooter's Bible .......... 51· · 13
`16· ·Exhibit 5· ·Exhibit 1001 - Flanagan patent ....... 66· · 20
`17· ·Exhibit 6· ·Exhibit 1002, the Lint patent ........ 77· · 14
`18· ·Exhibit 7· ·US Patent Number 6,695,726. .......... 80· · 21
`19· ·Exhibit 8· ·Exhibit 1006 to the IPR petition ..... 93· · 14
`20· ·Exhibit 9· ·Exhibit 1005 (Minisini) to IPR ....... 95· · 7
`· · · · · · · · ·petition
`21
`· · ·Exhibit 10· Exhibit 1003 - Vandewater patent ..... 100· ·13
`22
`· · ·Exhibit 11· Exhibit 1012, Liechty patent ......... 113· ·25
`23
`· · ·Exhibit 12· Exhibit 1013 to the IPR Petition ..... 126· ·14
`24
`25
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`Page 4
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`Page 5
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`·1· ·Thereupon,
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · TODD A. KUHN, PHD,
`·3· ·was called as a witness, and after having been first duly
`·4· ·sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
`·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · ·DIRECT EXAMINATION
`·7· ·BY ATTORNEY MCKINNIE:
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Morning, Dr. Kuhn.· Thank you for joining us today.
`·9· · · · · · ·And can you just identify your name -- full name for
`10· ·the record, please?
`11· · · · A.· ·Todd, T-O-D-D, Alan, A-L-A-N, Kuhn, K-u-h-n.
`12· · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· I just --· My name is Jason McKinnie,
`13· ·and I haven't ever met you before.· I'm an attorney for Matt
`14· ·Futtere and Veteran's Innovative Products.· I'm representing
`15· ·the patent owner in this case, just so you're aware of my
`16· ·position; I'm sure you are.· But I have a couple of ground
`17· ·rules that I'd just like to mention for you here.· I would
`18· ·like it if we could not talk over each other.· So, if I'm
`19· ·asking you a question, please give me the courtesy to let me
`20· ·finish the question before you answer, and I will do my best
`21· ·to let you finish your answer before I ask you another
`22· ·question.· Do I have your agreement for that?
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Have you taken any medications today that would
`25· ·impact your ability to recall information?
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·I have not.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·How did you prepare for today?
`·3· · · · A.· ·Reviewing the prior art, the -- my declaration,
`·4· ·patent office's response to your response to my declaration.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·If I refer to, you know, the Flanagan patent or the
`·6· ·Lint patent, for example, would you understand what I'm
`·7· ·referring to?
`·8· · · · A.· ·I will.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·And if you do need any clarification when I'm
`10· ·referring to a reference or an exhibit and if you have any
`11· ·confusion over that, please let's try to avoid any delay, and
`12· ·if you can just, you know, ask for clarification if you have
`13· ·any concerns.
`14· · · · · · ·Okay.· I want to introduce Exhibit 1 to this
`15· ·deposition, and it is --· Let me share the screen.
`16· · · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)
`17· ·BY ATTORNEY MCKINNIE:
`18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Dr. Kuhn, do you see the screen that I'm
`19· ·sharing?
`20· · · · A.· ·I do.· It's showing up pretty small.
`21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recognize this document?
`22· · · · A.· ·I do.
`23· · · · Q.· ·And what is this document?
`24· · · · A.· ·My declaration.
`25· · · · Q.· ·I'll represent to -- to the Board that this is
`
`

`

`Page 6
`·1· ·Bowmar Archery Exhibit 1019 to the Inter Partes Petition filed
`·2· ·by Bowmar Archery.· And you stated this is your report.· Does
`·3· ·197 pages seem accurate to be the full amount of the report
`·4· ·with appendix?
`·5· · · · A.· ·Mine is 168 pages, I think.
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you have that with you here today?
`·7· · · · A.· ·I do.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any other documents with you?
`·9· · · · A.· ·I do.
`10· · · · Q.· ·And what do you have with you?
`11· · · · A.· ·I have my declaration, the patent office's response
`12· ·to your declaration and the prior art and ancillary prior art,
`13· ·also.
`14· · · · Q.· ·Is it all the prior art that you've referenced in
`15· ·your declaration?
`16· · · · A.· ·It is not.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any notes from your attorney as part of
`18· ·the documents that you have?
`19· · · · A.· ·I do not.
`20· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any notes written on any of the
`21· ·documents in front of you that were not typed?
`22· · · · A.· ·I do not.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· On your declaration, if I go to page 168, it
`24· ·says "executed January 8, 2024."· Is this your signature?
`25· · · · A.· ·It is.
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`Page 8
`·1· ·setting and you would prescribe noise limiting practices to
`·2· ·limit the exposure of noise to workers in a work environment
`·3· ·vis a vis OSHA requirements.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you work --· After you graduated 1988 with your
`·5· ·degree, did you work or did you go straight into grad school?
`·6· · · · A.· ·I went into graduate school.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·What did you do after 1990?
`·8· · · · A.· ·I began work at the space center, Kennedy Space
`·9· ·Center, here in Florida.
`10· · · · Q.· ·What were you doing there?
`11· · · · A.· ·I was a statistician/research engineer.
`12· · · · Q.· ·Were you using your audiology degrees?
`13· · · · A.· ·I was not.· I was using my background in statistics
`14· ·or trend analysis.
`15· · · · · · ·(Certified Stenographer asks for clarification.)
`16· ·BY ATTORNEY MCKINNIE:
`17· · · · Q.· ·How did you get a background in statistics?
`18· · · · A.· ·In undergraduate, graduate school.
`19· · · · Q.· ·Was that a specific focus, or is that just part of
`20· ·the audiology degrees?
`21· · · · A.· ·It was a requirement for my graduate degree and
`22· ·undergraduate -- parametric and nonparametric statistics.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Is it accurate -- fair to say that you were using
`24· ·kind of a portion of your audiology degree with your work with
`25· ·the space center?
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`Page 7
`·1· · · · Q.· ·And we have an Appendix A to your report.· Does this
`·2· ·look accurate to something that you produced?
`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.· It does.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·And what is this Exhibit A, or Appendix A?· Excuse
`·5· ·me.
`·6· · · · A.· ·My CV.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· I'd like to start with your educational
`·8· ·background.· According to your declaration, you went to
`·9· ·University of Central Florida and obtained a bachelor of arts
`10· ·and a master of arts in audiology; is that accurate?
`11· · · · A.· ·It is.
`12· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me just briefly what is audiology?
`13· · · · A.· ·It's the science of sound, the physics of sound as
`14· ·it's related to the human condition, hearing.· Physiology and
`15· ·anatomy.· Acoustics.
`16· · · · Q.· ·What would you do with an audiology degree?
`17· · · · A.· ·You would work as a licensed audiologist in a
`18· ·hospital or referred ENT, ear, nose, and throat doctor,
`19· ·diagnosing hearing conditions or diseases of the hearing -- of
`20· ·hearing.
`21· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever -- when did you graduate with those
`22· ·degrees?
`23· · · · A.· ·My undergraduate degree was in 1988, and my graduate
`24· ·degree was in 1990.· To add to that, my -- you'd also practice
`25· ·what's called hearing conservation which you go in industrial
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`Page 9
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`·1· · · · A.· ·That's fair to say.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·And when did you --· So, how long did you work at
`·3· ·the space center?
`·4· · · · A.· ·From 1990 to 2005, thereabouts.· I did -- I do need
`·5· ·to add that I used some of my audiology degree because I
`·6· ·worked as a -- in the Lessons -- the NASA Lessons Learned
`·7· ·program, which I trended mishap data and whenever there was a
`·8· ·hearing loss case, I would use my audiology degree to go out
`·9· ·and research what was going on and provide corrective action.
`10· ·That was the hearing conservation portion of the audiology
`11· ·degree.
`12· · · · Q.· ·A hearing loss case is that, like, for workers at
`13· ·the space center?
`14· · · · A.· ·Workers' Comp for both federal employees and civil
`15· ·servants and contractor personnel as well, Air Force
`16· ·personnel.
`17· · · · Q.· ·When did you attend Colombia Southern University?
`18· · · · A.· ·I graduated in 1996.
`19· · · · Q.· ·What years were you there?
`20· · · · A.· ·1995 to 1996.
`21· · · · Q.· ·Was this in-person or remote?
`22· · · · A.· ·Distance learning.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Distance learning.· I guess that's the old term,
`24· ·right?
`25· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I don't know what they call it now.· I see
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`Page 10
`·1· ·all the commercials on TV with all different kinds of names
`·2· ·for it.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Where is Colombia Southern University?
`·4· · · · A.· ·It's in Alabama.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Says here you got a PhD in environmental
`·6· ·engineering.· Can you tell me kind of what is environmental
`·7· ·engineering?
`·8· · · · A.· ·My course of study was -- after my --· After I left
`·9· ·my first job at the space center, I went to my second one
`10· ·which was Bionetic -- the Bionetics Corporation.· I did
`11· ·hazardous waste and biomedical waste CERCLA sites, Superfund
`12· ·site work, which was environmental remediation work, on the
`13· ·Kennedy Space Center in the Cape Canaveral Air Force Station.
`14· ·So, my concentration of study with my environmental
`15· ·engineering degree was hazardous waste, environmental
`16· ·remediation.
`17· · · · Q.· ·So, I may have the timeline off a little bit:· You
`18· ·worked with the space center through 2005 and that was
`19· ·continually?
`20· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`21· · · · Q.· ·But you just changed job description -- job
`22· ·functions?
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I went from one contractor to another to
`24· ·another contractor.
`25· · · · Q.· ·Were you --· When you say a contractor, does that
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`Page 12
`·1· ·scientists then in the environmental field, and I felt that
`·2· ·I -- I was kind of steered into the -- into the field by the
`·3· ·nature of my work.· And I felt that I needed to get more
`·4· ·education to be qualified to at least discuss different
`·5· ·subjects and topics with them on projects.
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Did you have a thesis for your doctoral degree?
`·7· · · · A.· ·I had a dissertation.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Dissertation.· And what was your dissertation on?
`·9· · · · A.· ·It's over my bookshelf.· You want me to get it and
`10· ·read you the title of it?
`11· · · · Q.· ·If you need to -- generally speaking, can you tell
`12· ·me what it was?
`13· · · · A.· ·I think it would be better if I read it to you.
`14· · · · Q.· ·That's fine.· Just the title, correct?
`15· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`16· · · · Q.· ·Not the thesis?
`17· · · · A.· ·Right.· No.· I'm not going to read the whole thing.
`18· ·This is why I wasn't going to give it to you off the top of my
`19· ·head:· "The Macro-Economic Efficacy and Feasibility of
`20· ·Recyclable Commodities, Storage Facilities, in a Price Driven
`21· ·Global Socioeconomic System."
`22· · · · Q.· ·Is there a layman's definition of that?
`23· · · · A.· ·My dissertation was I put forth the premise of how
`24· ·to clean up the environment by -- by initiating a global
`25· ·recycling commodities market, much like the stock market, for
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`Page 11
`·1· ·mean you were employed by the contractor then, not the space
`·2· ·center?
`·3· · · · A.· ·No.· On the -- at a NASA center you have NASA civil
`·4· ·servant employees and then you have federal contractors which
`·5· ·are contracts let by NASA to private corporations.· The
`·6· ·Bionetics Corporation was a biomedical laboratory services
`·7· ·contractor.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·And so you worked for them, the private contractor?
`·9· · · · A.· ·I did.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, your paycheck came from the private
`11· ·corporation, not from the federal government?
`12· · · · A.· ·It did.
`13· · · · Q.· ·And was that the case throughout this time from 1990
`14· ·through 2005?
`15· · · · A.· ·It was.· I changed to -- the contract was re -- the
`16· ·space center, any federal contract, they rebid it every --
`17· ·there's a certain set criteria, number of years, that the
`18· ·contract is let for; they're three, five, or seven, typically.
`19· ·After the contract was rebid when I was with Bionetics,
`20· ·Dynamic Environmental Services won the contract, so I
`21· ·transferred from Bionetics to Dynamic Environmental Services.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Was it this transfer to these other contractor jobs
`23· ·the reason for why you sought an environmental engineering
`24· ·PhD?
`25· · · · A.· ·I worked with a number of NASA scientists, PhD
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`Page 13
`·1· ·commodities at the time which weren't being recycled:· Ferrous
`·2· ·metals, non-ferrous metals, C&D, which is construction and
`·3· ·demolition debris.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Was your PhD program, was that full-time?
`·5· · · · A.· ·I did it while I was in -- while I was working, but
`·6· ·yes, I was taking it full-time.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·What type of courses were you taking for
`·8· ·environmental engineering?
`·9· · · · A.· ·I can -- environmental law.· Environmental law,
`10· ·environmental remediation contracting, aquatic kinetics, the
`11· ·environmental fate of hazardous chemicals, real estate law
`12· ·with regard to environmental engineering.· Those are the ones
`13· ·I can remember off the top of my head, and I probably did not
`14· ·give you the exact title of the course.
`15· · · · Q.· ·That's fine.· Did you take mechanical engineering?
`16· · · · A.· ·I did not.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Did you take any classes regarding aerospace
`18· ·engineering?
`19· · · · A.· ·I did not.
`20· · · · Q.· ·Take any course work regarding aerodynamics?
`21· · · · A.· ·I did not.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, you worked for the private contractors
`23· ·with the the space center until 2005.· What did you do after
`24· ·that?
`25· · · · A.· ·I moved to Maryland to open an archery broadhead
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`Page 14
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`·1· ·business.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·What was the name of that company?
`·3· · · · A.· ·2XJ Enterprises, Inc.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you open that company by yourself?
`·5· · · · A.· ·I did not.· I had a partner.
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Who was that?
`·7· · · · A.· ·Scott Mackie, M-a-c-k-i-e.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·How did you know Scott Mackie?
`·9· · · · A.· ·He and I both played for the Cleveland Indians.
`10· · · · Q.· ·That is a job we did not go over.· So, I guess you
`11· ·were a professional baseball player?
`12· · · · A.· ·I was.
`13· · · · Q.· ·And when was that?
`14· · · · A.· ·In 1983 to 1987.· 1983 to '87, yeah.
`15· · · · Q.· ·So you started college at University of Central
`16· ·Florida before your career ended?
`17· · · · A.· ·Did not.· I started my college career at Southwest
`18· ·Baptist University in Bolivar, Missouri.
`19· · · · Q.· ·Is that while you were playing or before --
`20· · · · A.· ·That's before.· That was in 1979 or 1980.· One way
`21· ·or another.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, when you went to the University of
`23· ·Central Florida, you already had some coursework done that
`24· ·transferred over --
`25· · · · A.· ·Quite a bit -- had quite a bit done.· I had attended
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`Page 16
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·When did he start it?
`·2· · · · A.· ·I want to say 2003.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Did he start it by himself in 2003?
`·4· · · · A.· ·No.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·He start it with you in 2003?
`·6· · · · A.· ·We did.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Would you consider it a secondary job to your
`·8· ·private contractor job at that time in 2003 --
`·9· · · · A.· ·That would be one function --
`10· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY SHULL:· -- object to the form of the
`11· · · · question.
`12· · · · · · ·CERTIFIED STENOGRAPHER:· There was cross-talk and I
`13· · · · didn't hear the entire answer.
`14· · · · · · ·(Certified Stenographer asks for clarification.)
`15· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY MCKINNIE:· Let me just start it again.
`16· ·BY ATTORNEY MCKINNIE:
`17· · · · Q.· ·When you moved in 2005 to Maryland, was that so you
`18· ·could focus your full-time efforts on 2XJ Enterprises?
`19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`20· · · · Q.· ·Were you and Scott Mackie equal co-owners?
`21· · · · A.· ·We were.
`22· · · · Q.· ·In your declaration, you state you founded and
`23· ·operated two archery accessory companies:· ·Mid-Atlantic
`24· ·Archery Products and 2XJ Enterprises from approximately 2002
`25· ·to 2012.· I believe you've testified, then, that 2XJ
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`Page 15
`·1· ·Southwest Baptist University on a baseball scholarship and
`·2· ·then I transferred to the University of Montevallo in
`·3· ·Montevallo, Alabama, on a baseball scholarship.· And then I
`·4· ·went to New Mexico State University.· And then -- and then I
`·5· ·signed with the San Francisco Giants in 1984.
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, you were a undergraduate baseball player,
`·7· ·got coursework, got credit; what were your degree disciplines
`·8· ·when you were at those other schools?
`·9· · · · A.· ·Communicative disorders.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Would you say that's related to audiology?
`11· · · · A.· ·It is.· Communicative disorders -- there's two
`12· ·disciplines.· There's speech pathology and audiology.· So, you
`13· ·take a course track for either speech pathology or audiology.
`14· ·Typically, the undergraduate work is split between speech
`15· ·pathology with ancillary courses in audiology.· And then when
`16· ·you do your masters, it's -- the concentration is on one or
`17· ·the other:· Speech pathology or audiology.
`18· · · · Q.· ·That makes sense.
`19· · · · · · ·So, you moved to Maryland in 2005 to start 2XJ
`20· ·Enterprises?
`21· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY SHULL:· Object to the form of the question.
`22· ·BY ATTORNEY MCKINNIE:
`23· · · · Q.· ·You can answer if you understood what I was saying.
`24· · · · A.· ·No.· It was already -- it was already -- it was
`25· ·already started.· My business partner had already started it.
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`Page 17
`·1· ·Enterprises started in 2003.· When did· Mid-Atlantic Archery
`·2· ·Products start?
`·3· · · · A.· ·Well, it would have been 2002 if that's what I put
`·4· ·in there because that's -- I don't have the exact date in
`·5· ·front of me, but if I said 2002, I assume that's when we were
`·6· ·incorporated.· 2XJ was a -- was the company until we went from
`·7· ·broadheads.· And then I invented a design -- invented and
`·8· ·designed an archery arrow rest, an automatic archery arrow
`·9· ·rest.
`10· · · · · · ·(Certified Stenographer asks for clarification.)
`11· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Arrow rest.
`12· ·BY ATTORNEY SHULL:
`13· · · · Q.· ·What is an arrow rest?
`14· · · · A.· ·It's a part of an archery bow that the arrow rests
`15· ·on -- I hate to be -- you put the -- the end of the arrow on
`16· ·the string, and then then the other end of the arrow -- the
`17· ·forward end of the arrow lays on the arrow rest.
`18· · · · Q.· ·And I'm a little confused.· Which company were you
`19· ·working with when you invented that?
`20· · · · A.· ·We changed the company to· Mid-Atlantic Archery
`21· ·Products to remove any confusion about who the -- who the
`22· ·products were built by, the broadheads and the arrow rest.
`23· ·And then we branched off into other accessories with
`24· ·Mid-Atlantic Archery Products.
`25· · · · Q.· ·So, would you characterize Mid-Atlantic Archery
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`Page 18
`·1· ·Products as being products for bows; whereas, 2XJ Enterprises
`·2· ·would be arrowheads?
`·3· · · · A.· ·I would characterize them as both archery products.
`·4· ·bowhunting products.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Was the ownership of Mid-Atlantic Archery the same
`·6· ·as the ownership of 2XJ?
`·7· · · · A.· ·It was.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·So, for lack of a better word, you had some products
`·9· ·lines that you were selling through Mid-Atlantic Archery
`10· ·Products and different product lines being sold through 2XJ
`11· ·Enterprises?
`12· · · · A.· ·Initially.· Eventually, 2XJ was rolled into
`13· ·Mid-Atlantic.
`14· · · · Q.· ·And when did that roll-in occur?
`15· · · · A.· ·I don't know the exact date.
`16· · · · Q.· ·Why were they combined?
`17· · · · A.· ·Because an accountant told us to combine them.
`18· · · · Q.· ·Did one of these companies operate under the name
`19· ·Crimson Talon?
`20· · · · A.· ·No.
`21· · · · Q.· ·What is the term -- is Crimson Talon one of the
`22· ·products that one of those companies told?
`23· · · · A.· ·Crimson Talon was the broadhead -- excuse me -- was
`24· ·the broadhead line, the line of broadheads.
`25· · · · Q.· ·And who is -- who sold that line of broadheads?
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`Page 20
`·1· ·inventor.· There wasn't -- there weren't any co-inventors.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Did Scott Mackie do any inventing as well?
`·3· · · · A.· ·None.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Were there any other owners brought in to either
`·5· ·Mid-Atlantic or 2XJ from 2002 to 2012 other than you and Scott
`·6· ·Mackie?
`·7· · · · A.· ·There wasn't.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·And according to your declaration, it says that you
`·9· ·founded and operated them until 2012.· What happened in 2012?
`10· · · · A.· ·We had a -- Mr. Mackie and myself had a falling out
`11· ·over the operation of the financials of the company, and I
`12· ·left the company and -- and I left the company.
`13· · · · Q.· ·What happened to your ownership share?
`14· · · · A.· ·I assume it was dissolved.
`15· · · · Q.· ·So, Scott Mackie never bought you out?
`16· · · · A.· ·No.· The company went bankrupt.· And all the assets
`17· ·were assumed by the bank.
`18· · · · Q.· ·When did the company go bankrupt?
`19· · · · A.· ·I want to say in 2013 or so.
`20· · · · Q.· ·After you left?
`21· · · · A.· ·After I left.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Are there still Crimson Talon broadheads being sold
`23· ·on the market?
`24· · · · A.· ·I think somebody sells -- I think another company
`25· ·usurped the name and is manufacturing them and selling them.
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`Page 19
`·1· · · · A.· ·2XJ, initially.· And then after the two companies
`·2· ·were rolled together, Mid-Atlantic Archery.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Did you --· We'll discuss it later, but you
`·4· ·indicated that you developed 19 -- or invented subject matter
`·5· ·that became -- ultimately became 19 issued patents.· Did you
`·6· ·own all 19 of those patents individually?
`·7· · · · A.· ·I was the named inventor, and then the broadhead
`·8· ·patents were assigned to 2XJ or Mid-Atlantic; I don't remember
`·9· ·which one of the two.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Were you compensated for those assignments?
`11· · · · A.· ·You mean was I paid extra money, or ... I don't
`12· ·understand your question.
`13· · · · Q.· ·Did 2XJ have to purchase the patents from you?
`14· · · · A.· ·No.· I -- I assigned them.
`15· · · · Q.· ·Were you working for 2XJ when you invented these --
`16· ·the technology that ultimately had become these patents?
`17· · · · A.· ·I wasn't --· The first patent, as best of my
`18· ·recollection, was when 2XJ was incorporated, but I didn't
`19· ·assign it after it was issued.· I didn't assign it for some
`20· ·time after.· And I don't know the years.
`21· · · · Q.· ·So just to clarify, the issuance on at least some of
`22· ·these broadhead patents went to you directly and then later
`23· ·you assigned them to 2XJ?
`24· · · · A.· ·They all went to me, and then a -- and then I issued
`25· ·them as far as -- as far as I can remember.· I was the named
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`Page 21
`·1· ·I saw them -- a folding table booth at one of the ATA shows --
`·2· ·Archery Trade Association shows several years after the
`·3· ·company dissolved.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·To your knowledge, they are not related to the 2XJ
`·5· ·Enterprises?
`·6· · · · A.· ·My understanding is they're -- they were --· This is
`·7· ·my understanding:· Is that it was a couple guys that knew that
`·8· ·the company went under and that they were fans of the
`·9· ·broadheads, and they decided that they were going to start
`10· ·manufacturing and try to sell them.
`11· · · · Q.· ·So, did they --· To your knowledge, did they
`12· ·manufacture this -- the product using the intellectual
`13· ·property that you developed?
`14· · · · A.· ·It's a --· They were direct copies of the Crimson
`15· ·Talon broadhead that I designed.
`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was your Crimson Talon broadhead protected by
`17· ·any of the patents that you owned?
`18· · · · A.· ·It was.
`19· · · · Q.· ·So, who owned the patents at that time and after
`20· ·2013?
`21· · · · A.· ·Well, 2XJ or Mid-Atlantic.· 2XJ or Mid-Atlantic.
`22· · · · Q.· ·And then what happened at the bankruptcy?· Who
`23· ·owned the --
`24· · · · A.· ·I was trying --· I was trying to think if the -- if
`25· ·the bank took possession of the intellectual property which I
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`Page 22
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`·1· ·don't know.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if those patents are still active or
`·3· ·not?
`·4· · · · A.· ·No, I don't.· I think they've expired.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Did you receive any royalties for any sales of
`·6· ·products after 2012?
`·7· · · · A.· ·No.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever receive royalties for sales on products
`·9· ·prior to 2012?
`10· · · · A.· ·Royalties?· No.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Did you just share in the profits of the company
`12· ·with Mr. Mackie?
`13· · · · A.· ·I did.
`14· · · · Q.· ·Were there profits?
`15· · · · A.· ·That's arguable.· That's what led to the 2012
`16· ·departure.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Did you have any other paid income from 2005 to
`18· ·2012?
`19· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I do instruction manuals for the hunting
`20· ·industry.· Mostly tree stand manufacturers.
`21· · · · Q.· ·And do you do that through a company or just through
`22· ·you individually?
`23· · · · A.· ·Myself, individually.
`24· · · · Q.· ·And you said that's for tree stands?
`25· · · · A.· ·Yes.· The majority of.
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`Page 24
`·1· · · · Q.· ·And then what did you do --· So, that puts you
`·2· ·around 2014.· What did you do then?
`·3· · · · A.· ·2014?· I guess I was semi-retired.· I still did
`·4· ·consulting work for instruction manuals.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·So, since 2014 other than the instruction manuals,
`·6· ·did you receive any other paid income?
`·7· · · · A.· ·Since 2014?
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Correct.
`·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Subsequently, I moved to Florida in 2017 and
`10· ·started as editor of Game & Fish Magazine from 2017 to 2023,
`11· ·full-time.
`12· · · · Q.· ·And what was the magazine?
`13· · · · A.· ·Game, G-a-m-e, & -- ampersand -- Fish.
`14· · · · Q.· ·So, you were only semi-retired for three years then?
`15· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
`16· · · · Q.· ·And then in 2023 did you leave that job?
`17· · · · A.· ·I did.
`18· · · · Q.· ·And are you now fully retired, or what are you doing
`19· ·now?
`20· · · · A.· ·I'm still doing some consulting work, outdoor
`21· ·consulting work.
`22· · · · Q.· ·On the instruction manuals?
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`24· · · · Q.· ·How did you get into bowhunting?
`25· · · · A.· ·When I --· You want the long version?
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`Page 23
`·1· · · · Q.· ·Do you make any instruction manuals for broadheads
`·2· ·or bowhunting?
`·3· · · · A.· ·I've done instruction manuals for crossbows for
`·4· ·safety harnesses that are ancillary to tree stand use.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Would it matter in your instruction manuals --
`·6· ·Regarding crossbows, would it matter if there was a broadhead
`·7· ·or, like, a fixed blade or mechanical insert?· Would that have
`·8· ·any bearing on your instruction manual on the crossbow?
`·9· · · · A.· ·No, because it was an instruction use manual for the
`10· ·crossbow.· It wouldn't include broadheads.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Were you in Maryland, then, through 2012?
`12· · · · A.· ·I was.
`13· · · · Q.· ·And then where did you live after 2012?
`14· · · · A.· ·Mississippi.
`15· · · · Q.· ·What did you do in Mississippi?
`16· · · · A.· ·I worked at the Stennis, S-t-e-n-n-i-s, Space Center
`17· ·and at the Michoud, M-i-c-h-o-u-d.· It's in Louisiana.· It's
`18· ·another NASA center.
`19· · · · Q.· ·And what did you do at those locations?
`20· · · · A.· ·I was the safety manager.
`21· · · · Q.· ·And how long did you work in Mississippi at those
`22· ·jobs approximately?
`23· · · · A.· ·A year and a half or two.
`24· · · · Q.· ·For each or total?
`25· · · · A.· ·Total.
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`Page 25
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·Medium version.
`·2· · · · A.· ·When I was probably four or five, my brother got a
`·3· ·plastic bow and arrow set for his birthday, and I used it more
`·4· ·than he did.· And then when I turned five or six, I got -- I
`·5· ·was -- I was given a Fred Bear Osage orange long bow and some
`·6· ·arrows, and I started shooting things around the house,
`·7· ·animals.· And from there, just kept pursuing it.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·That was 1960s?· 1970s?· When would that be?
`·9· · · · A.· ·1965, '66.
`10· · · · Q.· ·When did you start hunting deer or other animals,
`11· ·bowhunting?
`12· · · · A.· ·1990.· You said white-tail, right?
`13· · · · Q.· ·When did you start shooting animals with a
`14· ·broadhead?
`15· · · · A.· ·Probably 1970.
`16· · · · Q.· ·And what were you shooting in 1970?
`17· · · · A.· ·Coons.
`18· · · · Q.· ·Would it be fair to say that you've been using bow
`19· ·and arrow and using a broadhead since roughly continuously
`20· ·since 1970, or were there spurts where you would go in and out
`21· ·of the hobby?
`22· · · · A.· ·Oh, I think like any adolescent or teenager there
`23· ·were times when I did it more and sometimes where I did it
`24· ·less, depending on the opportunities, depending on what my
`25· ·friends were doing, our interests at the time.
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`Page 26
`·1· · · · Q.· ·And then as a young adult when you were playing
`·2· ·baseball, did you still go bowhunting?
`·3· · · · A.· ·I did.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·And is that where Scott Mackie -- did you introduce
`·5· ·it to Scott Mackie at that time?
`·6· · · · A.· ·We were the Cleveland Indians, and he mentioned that
`·7· ·he bow hunted, and that was kind of our introduction to each
`·8· ·other.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·What type of arrows did you use, you know, in the
`10· ·1970s and 1980s?
`11· · · · A.· ·For the most part, wooden.· Some fiberglass.
`12· · · · Q.· ·What about the arrowhead?
`13· · · · A.· ·Mostly an --· My next-door neighbor in my
`14· ·neighborhood gave me the -- the heads that I used.· He had
`15· ·them in a fishing tackle box, and I -- they were metal
`16· ·broadheads.· I don't know the brand or the --
`17· · · · Q.· ·Were they fixed blade?
`18· · · · A.· ·They were.
`19· · · · Q.· ·When did you start to try to design your own
`20· ·broadhead?
`21· · · · A.· ·Probably 1990 or '91.
`22· · · · Q.· ·And why did you do that?
`23· · · · A.· ·I was hunting white-tail and the performance of the
`24· ·ones that I had were not good, so I thought I could build a
`25· ·better design.
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`Page 27
`·1· · · · Q.· ·What type of broadhead were you using at that time?
`·2· · · · A.· ·Various ones, but a Muzzy for the most part.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Were you using mechanical broadheads?
`·4· · · · A.· ·Fixed blade.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·You said the performance was not good.· What were
`·6· ·you trying to improve on?
`·7· · · · A.· ·Their flight.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Trying to make the arrow go faster?
`·9· · · · A.· ·No.· Trying to make it shoot straighter.
`10· · · · Q.· ·At this time were you using a compound bow or the
`11· ·traditional bow?
`12· · · · A.· ·A combination of longbows or a compound.
`13· · · · Q.· ·Is it accurate to say a compound bow gets more
`14· ·velocity