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`· · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT & TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL & APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · PGR2017-00003
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`·4
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`·5· · · · BESTWAY (USA), INC.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·7· · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · · INTEX MARKETING LTD.,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·9· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · ·)
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`· · · · · · · The deposition upon oral examination of
`12· · · · BERNHARD KUCHEL, a witness produced and sworn
`· · · · · before me, Linda C. Callahan, a Court Reporter and
`13· · · · Notary Public in and for the County of Hamilton,
`· · · · · State of Indiana, taken on behalf of the
`14· · · · Petitioner in the offices of Faegre Baker Daniels,
`· · · · · 300 N. Meridian Street, Suite 2700, Indianapolis,
`15· · · · Marion County, Indiana, on the 28th day of June,
`· · · · · 2018, commencing at 9:30 a.m., pursuant to the
`16· · · · Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and by Notice
`· · · · · and Agreement of the parties as to time and place
`17· · · · thereof.
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`24· ·Job No. 28301
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0001
`PGR2017-00003
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`· · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT & TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL & APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · PGR2017-00003
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`·4
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`·5· · · · BESTWAY (USA), INC.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·7· · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · · INTEX MARKETING LTD.,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·9· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · ·)
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`10
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`· · · · · · · The deposition upon oral examination of
`12· · · · BERNHARD KUCHEL, a witness produced and sworn
`· · · · · before me, Linda C. Callahan, a Court Reporter and
`13· · · · Notary Public in and for the County of Hamilton,
`· · · · · State of Indiana, taken on behalf of the
`14· · · · Petitioner in the offices of Faegre Baker Daniels,
`· · · · · 300 N. Meridian Street, Suite 2700, Indianapolis,
`15· · · · Marion County, Indiana, on the 28th day of June,
`· · · · · 2018, commencing at 9:30 a.m., pursuant to the
`16· · · · Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and by Notice
`· · · · · and Agreement of the parties as to time and place
`17· · · · thereof.
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`24· ·Job No. 28301
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0001
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · · · A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S
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`·2
`· · ·FOR THE PETITIONER:
`·3· ·McDERMOTT WILL & EMERY
`· · ·BY:· BRIAN A. JONES, ESQ.
`·4· · · · · · and
`· · ·THOMAS DaMARIO, ESQ.
`·5· ·444 W. Lake Street
`· · ·Suite 4000
`·6· ·Chicago, IL· 60606-0029
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`·7
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`·8· ·FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`· · ·FAEGRE BAKER DANIELS LLP
`·9· ·BY:· REID E. DODGE, ESQ.
`· · ·300 North Meridian Street
`10· ·Suite 2700
`· · ·Indianapolis, IN 46204
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`· · ·ALSO PRESENT:
`13· ·JOSHUA DEAMICIS, Intern
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`14
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`· · · · · ·I-N-D-E-X· ·O-F· ·E-X-A-M-I-N-A-T-I-O-N
`16
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`17
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`18· ·BY MR. JONES:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·3
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0002
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`·1
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`Job 28301
`Page 3
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`·2
`· · · · · · · · · I-N-D-E-X· ·O-F· ·E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
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`·4· · · ·REFERRED TO, PREVIOUSLY MARKED (NOT ATTACHED)
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`·5
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`·7· · · ·Bestway Exhibit 1001-0001
`· · · · · · ·240 Patent
`·8
`· · · · ·Bestway Exhibit 1004-0001
`·9· · · · · ·Guan 797 patent
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`10· · · ·Intex Exhibit 2001
`· · · · · · ·Kuchel first declaration
`11
`· · · · ·Intex Exhibit 2034
`12· · · · · ·Excerpts, Formulas for Stress, Strain
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`13· · · ·Bestway Exhibit 1005-0001
`· · · · · · ·Wang 615 patent
`14
`· · · · ·Bestway Exhibit 1011-0001
`15· · · · · ·Expert declaration of Dr. Sadegh
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`16
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`17· ·(Exhibits retained by Counsel)
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0003
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · BERNHARD KUCHEL,
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`·2· ·the witness herein, having been first duly sworn
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`·3· ·to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
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`·4· ·but the truth relating to said matter, was
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`·5· ·examined and testified as follows:
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`·6
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`·7· ·DIRECT EXAMINATION,
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`·8· · · ·QUESTIONS BY MR. BRIAN A. JONES:
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`·9· · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· Good morning, Mr.
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`10· ·Kuchel.· My name is Brian Jones of McDermott,
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`11· ·Will & Emery.· I represent Petitioner, Bestway,
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`12· ·in this case.· With me is Tom DaMario.· Do you
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`13· ·want to identify yourself for the record?
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`14· · · · · · · · MR. DODGE:· Reid Dodge for Patent
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`15· ·Owner Intex Marketing Limited, and with me is my
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`16· ·colleague, Josh Deamicis.
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`17· · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· Thank you for your time
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`18· ·again today.· We've previously met, and I deposed
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`19· ·you on round one of your declaration that you
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`20· ·submitted in this PGR proceeding.· Do you recall
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`21· ·that deposition?
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`22· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I do.
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`23· · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· And as with that
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`24· ·deposition, today, I ask that if you don't
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`25· ·understand one of my questions, that you would
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0004
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 5
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`·1· · · · ask for clarification; do you think you can do
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`·2· · · · that?
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Absolutely.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· And if you answer my
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`·5· · · · questions, I'll assume that you understood my
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`·6· · · · question.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's fine -- fair.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· And for the court
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`·9· · · · reporter's benefit, I ask that you wait until I
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`10· · · · finish my question and your counsel's objection
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`11· · · · before responding so that she can clearly
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`12· · · · articulate everything on the record.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I understand.
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`14· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· And I ask that you
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`15· · · · provide a verbal response to my questions so that
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`16· · · · they can be recorded.
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`17· · · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yep.
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`18· ·Q.· ·All right.· So in front of you, I have placed
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`19· · · · your declaration that you submitted in this case,
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`20· · · · Exhibit -- it's been marked as Exhibit 2001.· Do
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`21· · · · you recognize Exhibit 2001 to be the first
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`22· · · · declaration that you submitted in PGR2017-0003?
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`23· ·A.· ·I do.
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`24· ·Q.· ·Sir, as I have mentioned, I'd like to start with
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`25· · · · round two of your declaration which begins around
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0005
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 6
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`·1· · · · paragraph 184, so it may be helpful for you to
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`·2· · · · turn there.· And just let me know once you've
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`·3· · · · found paragraph 184.
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`·4· ·A.· ·I'm there.
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`·5· ·Q.· ·With respect to ground 2, you understand that Dr.
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`·6· · · · Sadegh's analysis was presented in two separate
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`·7· · · · grounds under ground 2?
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`·8· ·A.· ·I'm not sure I did understand that.· Maybe you
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`·9· · · · could clarity that?
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`10· ·Q.· ·Sure.· Under note 16 there, you say that Dr.
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`11· · · · Sadegh appears to include two separate grounds.
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`12· · · · Do you see that?
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`13· ·A.· ·Ah, yes.
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`14· ·Q.· ·And he interchanges Peterson and Guan 797 for
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`15· · · · various limitations; is that right?
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`16· ·A.· ·That's correct.
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`17· ·Q.· ·Correct?· And so you understand that ground 2 was
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`18· · · · presented as two separate grounds; correct?
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`19· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`20· ·A.· ·I was very confused, as think I tried to
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`21· · · · articulate here in my footnote 16, as to if there
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`22· · · · were two separate combinations or if there was a
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`23· · · · single combination of three, to some degree, so I
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`24· · · · recall that Dr. Sadegh said that Peterson and
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`25· · · · Guan were interchangeable, so it was a little
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0006
`PGR2017-00003
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`YVer1f
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`·1· · · · confusing to me.
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`Job 28301
`Page 7
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`·2· ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you understand that Dr. Sadegh used
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`·3· · · · Guan 797 as an alternative reference for
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`·4· · · · Peterson; correct?
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`·6· ·A.· ·Well, again, it appears that's what he's doing,
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`·7· · · · but I was still a bit confused as to -- what I
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`·8· · · · did in my report is addressed it as Dr. Sadegh
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`·9· · · · presented it, but as my footnote sort
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`10· · · · of indicates, or I tried to indicate, it is a bit
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`11· · · · confusing if there's a triple combination here or
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`12· · · · two single combinations.
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`13· ·Q.· ·Fair enough.
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`14· ·A.· ·Double combinations, I should say.
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`15· ·Q.· ·Fair enough.· But you understand that Dr. Sadegh
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`16· · · · uses Guan 797 in ground 2 as an alternative
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`17· · · · reference for Peterson; correct?
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`18· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`19· ·A.· ·He does use it that way, yes.
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`20· ·Q.· ·You agree -- I think you just mentioned that
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`21· · · · Peterson and Guan 797 are interchangeable?
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`22· ·A.· ·I said that Dr. Sadegh made that statement, to my
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`23· · · · recollection.· They do seem to overlap
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`24· · · · considerably.
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`25· ·Q.· ·And you agree that both Peterson and Guan 797
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0007
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 8
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`·1· · · · disclosed inflatable spas; right?
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`·2· ·A.· ·I would agree to that, yes.
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`·3· ·Q.· ·And both of those references disclose inflatable
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`·4· · · · spas with internal tensioning structures?
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`·5· ·A.· ·I would agree with that, also.
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`·6· ·Q.· ·And the real difference between Peterson and Guan
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`·7· · · · 797 is the shape of the top and the bottom walls;
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`·8· · · · right?
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`·9· ·A.· ·That's one difference.· Peterson also discloses
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`10· · · · additional features that Guan does not, for
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`11· · · · instance, the external reinforcing, we'll call it
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`12· · · · cover, so -- but, yes, at least that is a
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`13· · · · difference.
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`14· ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, maybe we can turn to the
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`15· · · · cross-section that you provide at paragraph 188.
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`16· · · · Do you see that?
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`17· ·A.· ·I do.
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`18· ·Q.· ·And there, you provide a cross-section of
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`19· · · · Peterson and a cross-section of Guan 797; is that
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`20· · · · right?
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`21· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`22· ·Q.· ·And so the Peterson cross-section there discloses
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`23· · · · sort of a rounded top and bottom wall, and Guan
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`24· · · · discloses more of a flat top and bottom wall;
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`25· · · · right?
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0008
`PGR2017-00003
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`YVer1f
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 9
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`·2· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·3· ·Q.· ·And Peterson has a seam, 22, in the middle of the
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`·4· · · · top wall, and Guan 797 doesn't have that seam in
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`·5· · · · the middle of the wall; right?
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`·6· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·7· ·Q.· ·And so when you described Guan 797, you mentioned
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`·8· · · · that it helps beautify the shape of the pools'
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`·9· · · · walls?
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`10· ·A.· ·Well, I believe that was Guan's language.
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`11· ·Q.· ·If you'd turn to paragraph 180 of your
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`12· · · · declaration; do you see that?
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`13· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`14· ·Q.· ·And sort of midway down, you describe Guan
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`15· · · · disclosing an inflatable swimming pool, and you
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`16· · · · said, which permits a greater wall height and
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`17· · · · helps to "beautify the shape" of the wall;
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`18· · · · correct?
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`19· ·A.· ·Well, again, I believe the beautify the shape in
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`20· · · · quotes came out of Guan, but that's -- that's
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`21· · · · been a long time since we've talked about this
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`22· · · · subject, but I believe that's a quote out of the
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`23· · · · patent specification.
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`24· ·Q.· ·And you agree with that quote?
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`25· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0009
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 10
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`·1· ·Q.· ·And you agree that Guan 797 beautifies the shape
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`·2· · · · of the wall?
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`·4· ·A.· ·I believe -- that's what Guan described it as,
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`·5· · · · and I guess personal opinion, I think it probably
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`·6· · · · does look better.
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`·7· ·Q.· ·So returning to paragraph 188 with the
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`·8· · · · side-by-side comparison of Peterson and Guan, you
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`·9· · · · agree that both Peterson and Guan disclose a gap
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`10· · · · between the top of the tensioning structure and
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`11· · · · the top wall; correct?
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`12· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`13· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`14· ·Q.· ·And you agree that Peterson and Guan 797 disclose
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`15· · · · a gap between the bottom of the tensioning
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`16· · · · structure and the bottom wall; correct?
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`17· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`18· ·A.· ·Yes, again.
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`19· ·Q.· ·And the purpose of those gaps are to allow air to
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`20· · · · communicate through the gaps and around the
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`21· · · · tensioning structure; correct?
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`22· ·A.· ·That's probably the main reason, yes.
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`23· ·Q.· ·Is there a difference between the shape of the
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`24· · · · gap in Peterson and the shape of the gap in Guan?
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`25· ·A.· ·Well, based on these basic drawings, I guess I'll
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0010
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 11
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`·1· · · · call them, I mean, they both appear to be arc
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`·2· · · · shaped but probably of a different curvature.
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`·3· ·Q.· ·And they extend the full length of the top edge
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`·4· · · · and the bottom edge of the tensioning structures;
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`·5· · · · correct?
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`·6· ·A.· ·That would appear to be the case, yes.
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`·7· ·Q.· ·And regardless of the shape, whether it's deeper
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`·8· · · · or wider, it would still allow air to flow around
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`·9· · · · the gap; correct?
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`10· ·A.· ·Yes, it would.
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`11· ·Q.· ·So I want to talk about claim 18 of the 240
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`12· · · · patent, and I have and put in front of you
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`13· · · · Exhibit 1001.· Do you recognize Exhibit 1001 to
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`14· · · · be the 240 patent at issue in this case?
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`15· ·A.· ·I do.
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`16· ·Q.· ·And feel free to reference that whenever you
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`17· · · · want, I just wanted to make sure you had a copy,
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`18· · · · because I'd like to talk about claim 18 of the
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`19· · · · 240 patent.· Do you see claim 18 of the 240
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`20· · · · patent?
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`21· ·A.· ·I do.
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`22· ·Q.· ·And that depends from claim 17 of the 240 patent,
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`23· · · · correct?
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`24· ·A.· ·Yes, it does.
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`25· ·Q.· ·And claim 18 adds the limitation wherein the
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0011
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 12
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`·1· · · · first wall comprises an inner wall of the
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`·2· · · · inflatable product and the second wall comprises
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`·3· · · · an outer wall of the inflatable product, further
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`·4· · · · comprising a top wall and a bottom wall
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`·5· · · · cooperating with the inner and outer walls to
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`·6· · · · define the inflatable air chamber.· Each
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`·7· · · · tensioning structure in the top and bottom walls
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`·8· · · · cooperate to define gaps that are between; is
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`·9· · · · that right?
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`10· ·A.· ·Yes, it is.
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`11· ·Q.· ·And you agree that that additional limitation of
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`12· · · · claim 18 is disclosed by Peterson; correct?
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`14· ·A.· ·Well, I mean, I did not address this in my -- my
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`15· · · · declaration or my report here because I -- I did
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`16· · · · not have any substantive differences with Dr. --
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`17· · · · how do you say his name Sadey, Soddig?
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`18· ·Q.· ·Soddig (phonetic).
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`19· ·A.· ·Soddig, okay.· So I guess by default or
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`20· · · · implicitly, I'm agreeing, but claim 18 was meet
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`21· · · · by Peterson.
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`22· ·Q.· ·And do you also agree that claim 18 is met by
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`23· · · · Guan 797?
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`24· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`25· ·A.· ·I would agree with that, also.
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0012
`PGR2017-00003
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 13
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`·1· ·Q.· ·And that's because Peterson discloses a top wall,
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`·2· · · · bottom wall, inner wall, outer wall, and gaps at
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`·3· · · · the top and bottom; correct?
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`·4· ·A.· ·As -- as to how Dr. Sadegh -- I'm sorry, I'm just
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`·5· · · · going to call him Sadey because I've been saying
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`·6· · · · Sadey for a year now.
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`·7· ·Q.· ·I'll understand what you mean.
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`·8· ·A.· ·Okay.· The way Dr. Sadegh defined the walls in
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`·9· · · · his declaration, I did not dispute.
`
`10· ·Q.· ·And with respect to the Guan 797, it also
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`11· · · · discloses a top wall, bottom wall, inner wall,
`
`12· · · · outer wall, and gaps at the top and bottom of the
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`13· · · · tensioning structure?
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`14· ·A.· ·Yes, it does.
`
`15· ·Q.· ·And so assuming that PTAB agrees with Dr. Sadegh
`
`16· · · · regarding claims 1 through 7 and 17, you agree
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`17· · · · that claim 18 is also obvious over Peterson and
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`18· · · · Fireman?
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`19· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
`
`20· ·A.· ·Again, I did not address claim 18 in my report,
`
`21· · · · so I -- I'm reluctant to pass judgment that it
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`22· · · · was obvious.· I just did not find, I guess, an
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`23· · · · argument there that -- that was at least at that
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`24· · · · point worth taking up.
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`25· ·Q.· ·Well, so beyond what you identified with respect
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 14
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`·1· · · · to ground 1, you didn't provide any additional
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`·2· · · · reasons why claim 18 would have limitations that
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`·3· · · · are missing from Peterson and Fireman;.
`
`·4· · · · Correct?
`
`·5· ·A.· ·That is correct.
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`·6· ·Q.· ·And you point to no additional limitations of
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`·7· · · · claim 18 that would be missing from the
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`·8· · · · combination of Peterson, Fireman, and Guan 797;
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`·9· · · · correct?
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`10· ·A.· ·Relative to claim 18?
`
`11· ·Q.· ·Correct.
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`12· ·A.· ·Correct.
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`13· ·Q.· ·In this section, you also -- in this footnote 16,
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`14· · · · you also suggest that Dr. Sadegh failed to
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`15· · · · provide an adequate reason why a POSA would have
`
`16· · · · combined Peterson, Fireman, and Guan; correct?
`
`17· ·A.· ·Yes, I do say that.
`
`18· ·Q.· ·And you refer to paragraph 218 in this footnote
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`19· · · · as a cross-reference?
`
`20· ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`21· ·Q.· ·And if you look at paragraph 218 later in your
`
`22· · · · declaration, I think it was really supposed to
`
`23· · · · refer to paragraph 219; is that right?
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`24· ·A.· ·I believe you are correct.· It looks like a typo.
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`25· ·Q.· ·Because 218 discusses the motivation to combine;
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`·1· · · · correct?
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`·2· ·A.· ·Correct.
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`Job 28301
`Page 15
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`·3· ·Q.· ·So in 219, then, you refer back to your analysis
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`·4· · · · in section XII.A.iv above; correct?
`
`·5· ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`·6· ·Q.· ·And that's your criticisms of Dr. Sadegh's
`
`·7· · · · motivations with respect to ground 1; correct?
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`·8· ·A.· ·Motivations, yes, yes.
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`·9· ·Q.· ·The motivations to combine under ground 1;
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`10· · · · correct?
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`11· ·A.· ·That's true.
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`12· ·Q.· ·So if we then go back to ground 2, claim 19,
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`13· · · · starting at around paragraph 86, I want to
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`14· · · · discuss that claim.
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`15· ·A.· ·186, I think you mean?
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`16· ·Q.· ·Correct, 186.
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`17· ·A.· ·Okay, I'm there.
`
`18· ·Q.· ·Now, claims starting with 19 through 22, each of
`
`19· · · · these claims require a notch or a notch-defining
`
`20· · · · portion; correct?
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`21· ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· ·Q.· ·And because claim 19 states -- or adds the
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`23· · · · additional limitation that wherein each
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`24· · · · tensioning structure includes a plurality of
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`25· · · · notches cooperating with the top and bottom walls
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0015
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 16
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`·1· · · · to define the gaps; correct?
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`·2· ·A.· ·Correct.
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`·3· ·Q.· ·And notch or notches is one of the terms that you
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`·4· · · · provided the a construction for; correct?
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`·5· ·A.· ·Yes, it is.
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`·6· ·Q.· ·And you disagree with Dr. Sadegh's construction
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`·7· · · · of notch; correct?
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`·8· ·A.· ·Yes, I do disagree with him.
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`·9· ·Q.· ·And then for your reference, so I can direct you
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`10· · · · to the sections on claim construction, you
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`11· · · · discuss notch claim construction at paragraphs 96
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`12· · · · through 103, so if we could just talk about that
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`13· · · · section for a minute; just let me know when you
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`14· · · · find that section.
`
`15· ·A.· ·Okay, I'm there.
`
`16· ·Q.· ·So you first agree that a notch is a type of
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`17· · · · indentation; correct?
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`19· ·A.· ·Yes, it's a type of indentation.
`
`20· ·Q.· ·And in paragraph 98, you say every notch is a
`
`21· · · · type of indentation; correct?
`
`22· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`23· ·Q.· ·And your definition, though, of notches requires
`
`24· · · · a geometric discontinuity or interruption;
`
`25· · · · correct?
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 17
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`·1· ·A.· ·Yes, in a edger surface.
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`·2· ·Q.· ·Within an edger surface?
`
`·3· ·A.· ·Within an edger surface.
`
`·4· ·Q.· ·Right.· So I just want to talk about the
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`·5· · · · discontinuity or interruption.· There's no
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`·6· · · · difference between a geometric discontinuity and
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`·7· · · · an indentation, is there?
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
`
`·9· ·A.· ·Well, yes, there is.· I think that's the whole
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`10· · · · point of my construction here and the summation
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`11· · · · we just talked about here at the end of paragraph
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`12· · · · 98.· Maybe I didn't understand the question.
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`13· ·Q.· ·Well, I understand your argument that the
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`14· · · · discontinuity or interruption has to be within
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`15· · · · the edge of the tensioning structure, it can't
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`16· · · · take up the entire edge.
`
`17· ·A.· ·Right.
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`18· ·Q.· ·I just want to understand if there's a
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`19· · · · significant difference between an indentation and
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`20· · · · a discontinuity.
`
`21· ·A.· ·Well, a discontinuity is a type of indentation.
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`22· ·Q.· ·And it's an indentation that doesn't take up the
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`23· · · · whole edge; right?
`
`24· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`25· ·Q.· ·So an indentation that doesn't take up the whole
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
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`Job 28301
`Page 18
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`·1· · · · edge would be a discontinuity; correct?
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`·3· ·A.· ·I believe so.
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`·4· ·Q.· ·And then an indentation that doesn't take up the
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`·5· · · · entire edge would still be an interruption, as
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`·6· · · · you've defined it here in the construction for
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`·7· · · · notches?
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`·8· ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·9· ·Q.· ·And so the real difference between you and Dr.
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`10· · · · Sadegh is that he contends that the term notch
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`11· · · · can be any indentation, but you contend that the
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`12· · · · notch must be within only a portion of the edge
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`13· · · · or surface?
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`14· ·A.· ·I believe that's the root of the disagreement,
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`15· · · · yes.
`
`16· ·Q.· ·And so you agree that an indentation within part
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`17· · · · of an edge would be a discontinuity or
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`18· · · · interruption within an edge?
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`19· ·A.· ·Please ask that again.
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`20· ·Q.· ·You agree that an indentation within part of an
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`21· · · · edge would be a discontinuity or interruption
`
`22· · · · within an edge.
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`23· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`24· ·A.· ·I guess I would agree with that, yes.
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`25· ·Q.· ·So your understanding of notches means that notch
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0018
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
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`Job 28301
`Page 19
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`·1· · · · is limited to having an indented part of an edge,
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`·2· · · · whereas Dr. Sadegh says it could be the entire
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`·3· · · · edge; correct?
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`·4· ·A.· ·I think you already asked me that, but yes.
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`·5· ·Q.· ·And regardless as to whether Dr. Sadegh's
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`·6· · · · definition is applied or your definition is
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`·7· · · · applied, both of those structures would allow air
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`·8· · · · to flow through the notch or indentation that's
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`·9· · · · created in the edge of the tensioning structure
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`10· · · · correct?
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`11· ·A.· ·Correct.
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`12· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`13· ·A.· ·Sorry.· Correct.
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`14· ·Q.· ·As long as there is some sort of gap in the
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`15· · · · tensioning structure, whatever its shape, air
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`16· · · · will be allowed to flow through the gap and
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`17· · · · around the tensioning structure; correct?
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`18· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`19· ·A.· ·Correct.
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`20· ·Q.· ·And that allows the air to communicate from one
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`21· · · · side of the tensioning structure to the other;
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`22· · · · correct?
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`23· ·A.· ·Obviously.
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`24· ·Q.· ·And the 240 patent doesn't describe any function
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`25· · · · or benefit of a gap between the tensioning
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0019
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 20
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`·1· · · · structure and the wall, does it?
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`·3· ·A.· ·The wall?· I don't believe it addresses any kind
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`·4· · · · of gap between the tensioning structure and the
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`·5· · · · wall.
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`·6· ·Q.· ·Let me ask again, then.· The 240 patent doesn't
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`·7· · · · describe any function or benefit of the gap
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`·8· · · · between the top of the tensioning structure and
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`·9· · · · the top wall; correct?
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`11· ·A.· ·I don't recall.· I'd have to go back in the
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`12· · · · specification to see if they define that.· If you
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`13· · · · know where that is or isn't in the patent I
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`14· · · · guess, but --
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`15· ·Q.· ·But you --
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`16· ·A.· ·The claim -- the claim language does not dictate
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`17· · · · the function.
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`18· ·Q.· ·Okay.· I understand.· But you don't identify any
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`19· · · · portion of the 240 patent in your declaration
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`20· · · · where the 240 patent describes some function or
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`21· · · · benefit of that gap?
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`22· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`23· ·A.· ·Not to my recollection, no.
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`24· ·Q.· ·And other than air flow, you're not aware of any
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`25· · · · other benefit associated with the gap in the 240
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
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`·1· · · · patent; correct?
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`·2· ·A.· ·I'm not.
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`Job 28301
`Page 21
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`·3· ·Q.· ·And then, for example, in paragraph 101, you
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`·4· · · · describe a couple of dictionaries and other
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`·5· · · · sources, and you have some picture here at the
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`·6· · · · end of paragraph 101 from Exhibit 2034; do you
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`·7· · · · see that?
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`·8· ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`·9· ·Q.· ·And this -- these pictures in paragraph 101 come
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`10· · · · from Formulas for Stress and Strain and
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`11· · · · Structural Matrices; correct?
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`12· ·A.· ·Yes, one was for Stress, Strain, and Structural
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`13· · · · Matrices.
`
`14· ·Q.· ·So I'm handing you what's been marked as
`
`15· · · · Exhibit 2034.· Do you recognize Exhibit 2034 to
`
`16· · · · be Formulas for Stress and Strain and Structural
`
`17· · · · Matrices that you reference in your declaration?
`
`18· ·A.· ·It appears to be, yes.
`
`19· ·Q.· ·And this is a book from 2005; correct?
`
`20· ·A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`21· ·Q.· ·And the -- all the pictures that you site in
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`22· · · · paragraph 101, all of those notches are different
`
`23· · · · shapes for notches that satisfy your definition
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`24· · · · of notch as used in the 240 patent; correct?
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`25· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
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`Job 28301
`Page 22
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`·1· ·A.· ·All of them satisfy what I believe a POSA would
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`·2· · · · understand a notch to be based on the patent
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`·3· · · · language, yes.
`
`·4· ·Q.· ·And a POSA would have understood that air would
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`·5· · · · be allowed to flow through any of those gaps;
`
`·6· · · · correct?
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`·7· ·A.· ·Yes, they would.
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`·8· ·Q.· ·And there's no advantage to one type of structure
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`·9· · · · over the other for air flow purposes; correct?
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`10· ·A.· ·Not in this type of application, no.
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`11· ·Q.· ·And so for any of the notches shown in your
`
`12· · · · figures of paragraph 101 that you cite from
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`13· · · · Formulas for Stress and Strain, at the time, a
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`14· · · · POSA would have known that any of those notches
`
`15· · · · could serve the same function of allowing air to
`
`16· · · · flow around a tensioning structure; correct?
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`18· ·A.· ·Yes, they would understand that.
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`19· ·Q.· ·So let's talk about claim 19, and just for your
`
`20· · · · reference, that's back around paragraph 187.
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`21· ·A.· ·I'm there.
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`22· ·Q.· ·And it's your opinion that the tensioning
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`23· · · · structure of Peterson does not disclose the
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`24· · · · claims notch under your construction; correct?
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`25· ·A.· ·That is correct.
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0022
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 23
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`·1· ·Q.· ·Peterson discloses an indentation that spans the
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`·2· · · · entire top of the tensioning structure; correct?
`
`·3· ·A.· ·Correct.
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`·4· ·Q.· ·And so for that reason, it doesn't meet your
`
`·5· · · · definition of notch; correct?
`
`·6· ·A.· ·That is correct.
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`·7· ·Q.· ·And the same thing with respect to Guan 797, it's
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`·8· · · · your opinion that Guan 797 does not disclose the
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`·9· · · · claimed notch; correct?
`
`10· ·A.· ·That is correct.
`
`11· ·Q.· ·And that's because it, Guan 797, discloses an
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`12· · · · indentation that spans the entire top edge of the
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`13· · · · tensioning structure?
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`14· ·A.· ·Yes, because in both cases, Peterson and Guan,
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`15· · · · the arc is the edge, so that indentation, as you
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`16· · · · call it, is the edge of the tensioning structure,
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`17· · · · so there is no notch in either display.
`
`18· ·Q.· ·Correct, and that's under your claim
`
`19· · · · construction?
`
`20· ·A.· ·Absolutely.
`
`21· ·Q.· ·And if the PTAB adopts Dr. Sadegh's claim
`
`22· · · · construction, you agree that Peterson does
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`23· · · · disclose the notch of claim 19 under his
`
`24· · · · construction?
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`25· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 24
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`·1· ·A.· ·Yes, I believe that would be the case.
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`·2· ·Q.· ·So I'm handing you what's been marked as
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`·3· · · · Exhibit 1005.· Do you understand that to be the
`
`·4· · · · Wang 615 patent that you refer to in your report?
`
`·5· ·A.· ·It appears to be, yes.
`
`·6· ·Q.· ·And you agree that the Wang 615 patent discloses
`
`·7· · · · tensioning structures with a notch under your
`
`·8· · · · construction; correct?
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
`
`10· ·A.· ·Well, this -- I thought we were talking about
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`11· · · · claim 19, but -- are we not?
`
`12· ·Q.· ·We are.
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`13· ·A.· ·Wang was not part of this combination.
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`14· ·Q.· ·Well, Wang 19 -- or sorry; claim 19 requires a
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`15· · · · notch; right?
`
`16· ·A.· ·Yes, it does.
`
`17· ·Q.· ·And I'm just asking whether you agree that Wang
`
`18· · · · 615 discloses a tensioning structure with a notch
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`19· · · · that satisfies your claim construction.
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`20· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
`
`21· ·A.· ·It would appear to be that is the case, yes.
`
`22· ·Q.· ·I'm handing you what's marked as Exhibit 1011,
`
`23· · · · the expert declaration of Dr. Sadegh.· Do you
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`24· · · · recognize Exhibit 1011 to be the declaration of
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`25· · · · Dr. Sadegh that you reviewed in this case?
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0024
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`Bestway USA vs Intex Marketing
`Bernhard Kuchel on June 28, 2018
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`Job 28301
`Page 25
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`·1· ·A.· ·It appears to be that, yes.
`
`·2· ·Q.· ·And I want to draw your attention to Dr. Sadegh's
`
`·3· · · · analysis of figure 2 of the Wang 615 in his
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`·4· · · · paragraph 189.· Do you see that?
`
`·5· ·A.· ·I'm not there yet.
`
`·6· ·Q.· ·Just let me know when you've had a chance to
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`·7· · · · review 189.
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`·8· ·A.· ·Okay, I have reviewed it.
`
`·9· ·Q.· ·And you see there in the figure 2 of Wang 615,
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`10· · · · that Dr. Sadegh annotates with the interlinking
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`11· · · · portion; do you see that?
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`12· ·A.· ·I do.
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`13· ·Q.· ·And he's labeled the notch in the Wang 615 patent
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`14· · · · as the interlinking portion; correct?
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
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`16· ·A.· ·That would appear -- appear to be the case, yes.
`
`17· ·Q.· ·And you agree that the interlinking portion of
`
`18· · · · Wang 615 that Dr. Sadegh has marked in red there
`
`19· · · · satisfies the notch as required by claim 19 under
`
`20· · · · your construction?
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · ·MR. DODGE:· Objection, form.
`
`22· ·A.· ·I'd agree with that.
`
`23· ·Q.· ·So I'd like to turn back -- you can set that to
`
`24· · · · the side for the moment.· I want to turn back to
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`25· · · · your declaration regarding claim 20, and that
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`EcoScribe Solutions· · 888.651.0505
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`BESTWAY EXHIBIT 1027-0025
`PGR2017-00003
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