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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`_________________________________________
`IRONSOURCE LTD.,
`Petitioner,
`vs. Case No. PGR2021-00096
`Patent No. 10,782,951
`DIGITAL TURBINE, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`____________________________________________
`
`REMOTE EXPERT DEPOSITION OF
`ZHUOQING MORLEY MAO, Ph.D.
`Thursday, September 1, 2022
`
`Reported by: Robin LaFemina, RPR, CLR
`Job No. 5418204
`
`ironSource Exh. 1027
`ironSource Ltd. v. Digital Turbine Inc.
`PTAB PGR2021-00096
`
`212-267-6868
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`_________________________________________
`IRONSOURCE LTD.,
`Petitioner,
`vs. Case No. PGR2021-00096
`Patent No. 10,782,951
`DIGITAL TURBINE, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`____________________________________________
`
`REMOTE EXPERT DEPOSITION OF
`ZHUOQING MORLEY MAO, Ph.D.
`Thursday, September 1, 2022
`
`Reported by: Robin LaFemina, RPR, CLR
`Job No. 5418204
`
`ironSource Exh. 1027
`ironSource Ltd. v. Digital Turbine Inc.
`PTAB PGR2021-00096
`
`212-267-6868
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`www.veritext.com
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` September 1, 2022
` 3:03 p.m. Eastern Time
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION of ZHUOQING
`MORLEY MAO, Ph.D., called as an Expert
`Witness herein, taken via Zoom on behalf of
`Petitioner ironSource, before Robin LaFemina,
`a Registered Professional Reporter,
`Certified LiveNote Reporter and Notary
`Public.
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`For Petitioner ironSource Ltd.:
`HUNTON ANDREWS KURTH LLP
`BY: PAUL ACKERMAN, ESQ. (Via Zoom)
`BY: GARY A. ABELEV, ESQ. (Via Zoom)
` 200 Park Avenue
` New York, New York 10166
` (212) 309-1000
` paul@acknowledgeip.com
` garyabelev@huntonak.com
`
`For Patent Owner Digital Turbine, Inc.:
`FENWICK & WEST
`BY: JENNIFER R. BUSH, ESQ. (Via Zoom)
` 555 California Street, 12th Floor
` San Francisco, California 94104
` (415) 875-2300
` jbush@fenwick.com
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`ZHUOQING MORLEY MAO, Ph.D.,
` having been first duly sworn, was
` examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION BY
`MR. ACKERMAN:
` Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Mao. It's
`good to see you again. I know we had a
`deposition not too long ago, but just as a
`reminder, you know, the court reporter needs
`to record everything we say and knowing that
`we have Zoom lag with a virtual session, you
`know, please give me a moment to finish
`answering my questions -- asking my
`questions before you answer them, and I'll
`try to give you the same courtesy so that we
`only have one person talking at a time.
` Is that all right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if you don't understand a
`question that I ask, please ask for
`clarification. I'll be happy to try to ask
`a better question if that works for you.
` A. Of course.
` Q. And if you answer, I'm just
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`going to assume that you did understand the
`question. If later you have doubts and you
`want to clarify it, please let me know on
`the record.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And, most importantly, if at any
`time you need a break, just ask, we'll
`probably stop about every hour anyway, but
`if you need to take a break sooner, that
`will be fine. The only thing I'll ask is
`that if there's a question pending, that we
`answer that question first and maybe any
`small follow-up, but we'll get you a break
`as soon as practical.
` A. Yeah, I'm hoping to not finish
`too late.
` Q. Me, too.
` All right. So the first exhibit
`I'd like to look at has been previously
`marked as Exhibit 2013, and do you recognize
`Exhibit 2013 as your Supplemental Declaration
`in this proceeding?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And do you have a copy of that
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`in front of you or should I share it on my
`screen?
` A. Yes, I have a copy.
` Q. Okay.
` Paragraph 3 in Section III
`indicates Documents and Materials Reviewed.
`Does that paragraph accurately reflect the
`material you reviewed in providing your
`opinions in the Supplemental Declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Are there any additional
`documents that you reviewed that are not
`listed here that were important to forming
`your opinions?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. I also reviewed -- let me see --
`this is the Preliminary Guidance Patent
`Owner's Motion to Amend.
` Q. Mm-hmm.
` A. But that is just some
`information that I was able to get access to
`from the counsel.
` Q. Okay.
` A. My opinions are formed based on,
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`yeah, what I stated in my Supplemental
`Declaration.
` Q. So is it, among the documents
`that you reviewed listed here are Patent
`Owner's Reply in Support of the Contingent
`Motion to Amend; is that correct? That's
`listed on page 3 in that paragraph?
` A. Patent Owner's Contingent Motion
`to Amend. Yes, I reviewed that one.
` Q. And Patent Owner's Reply in
`Support of the Contingent Motion to Amend?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And you also reviewed Patent
`Owner's Surreply?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, in paragraph 1, if I'm
`understanding your Declaration correctly,
`you're submitting this Declaration in
`connection with Patent Owner's Surreply and
`Reply to the Opposition to Patent Owner's
`Contingent Motion to Amend; is that correct?
` A. Yes, I believe that's correct.
` Q. And the two documents that
`you're submitting the Declaration in
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`connection with are also documents that you
`reviewed in forming your opinions; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Can you rephrase that question?
`I didn't fully understand.
` Q. Sure.
` In paragraph 3, among the
`documents you reviewed were the Patent
`Owner's Surreply document; correct? We saw
`that in paragraph 3. And that's the same
`document that's referenced in paragraph 1 is
`the only thing I'm trying to establish here.
` A. In paragraph 1, exactly which
`sentence are you referring to? The
`surreply?
` Q. Your very first sentence that
`indicates you're submitting this Declaration
`in connection with Digital Turbine's
`Surreply and Reply to ironSource Opposition
`to Patent Owner's Contingent Motion to
`Amend.
` A. Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm seeing it now.
` Q. And both of those documents are
`referenced in Figure -- in paragraph 3 as
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`documents that you reviewed in forming your
`opinions; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. I'm actually not sure what
`exactly you are asking. What I state in the
`Supplemental Declaration is that I'm
`submitting this Declaration, yeah, in
`connection, right, to these documents, which
`is the Surreply and the Reply to the
`Opposition to Patent Owner's Contingent
`Motion to Amend.
` Q. And in forming your opinions,
`you actually reviewed those two documents;
`correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Yeah, I read those documents;
`correct.
` Q. I would like to jump ahead to
`paragraphs 14 and 15 of your Declaration
`where -- it's Section V, substitute claims
`are not obvious over Pasha in view of Wyatt
`and/or Farm, and I believe that's on page 7
`of Exhibit 2013.
` A. Mm-hmm.
`
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` Q. Actually we'll go right to
`paragraph 15 on page 8.
` Am I correctly understanding
`that it is your position that a person of
`skill in the art would not combine Farm with
`Wyatt and Pasha given what your
`understanding is of the default use of HTTPS
`in Farm?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Given the default use? Can you
`clarify what you mean by that, the default
`use of HTTPS or HTTP? I'd like to ask you
`please rephrase the question, if possible.
` Q. Okay. Sure.
` And paragraph 15 is a very big
`paragraph.
` A. Mm-hmm.
` Q. So if we look later in paragraph
`15, you indicate that such communication is
`already conducted over secure communication
`channels using HTTPS, as it is a well-known
`best practice to use secure network
`protocols such as HTTPS to prevent man in
`the middle attacks using an end-to-end
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`secure network protocol. And then you
`continue to indicate that HTTPS is becoming
`the default network protocol for
`communication with web servers. So when I
`indicated that HTTPS was becoming the
`default protocol, I was using your language.
` A. Okay. Yes. That's right.
`That's what I wrote here.
` Q. So going back to my question, am
`I understanding your opinion correctly that
`a POSITA or person of ordinary skill in the
`art would not combine Farm with Wyatt and
`Pasha given that it is your understanding
`that there is a default use of HTTPS
`protocol in Farm?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. There are many reasons why I do
`not believe these Wyatt, Farm and Pasha
`should be combined, which I stated in
`Section V. Whether -- with respect to HTTPS
`being the default protocol, that's -- that
`aspect of the reasoning is that because
`HTTPS is the default communication protocol
`between web servers and web clients.
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`Therefore, it's practically prevents man in
`the middle attacks, which is a topic that
`Wyatt attempts to address.
` Q. How does HTTPS, in your opinion,
`prevent man in the middle attacks?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Well, HTTPS, I'm just giving you
`the explanation of the definition of the
`protocol from someone who is -- has the
`understanding of the computer science basic
`knowledge, it is a protocol that uses secure
`sockets layer, which is what S stands for,
`so with the secure sockets layer protocol,
`what happens is that packets exchanged
`between the two end points are encrypted,
`and man in the middle attacks means that
`someone in the middle of the network
`attempts to compromise the connection. So
`because of the end-to-end encryption, it
`practically prevents man in the middle
`attacks.
` Q. In establishing a network
`session between a device and a network
`server with HTTPS, does the device receive
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`information on the server's certificate?
` MS. BUSH: Objection to form.
` A. So can you refer me to --
` Q. Yes.
` A. -- what you are talking about
`this? I think you are asking a question
`that I'm not sure is something that is
`directly related to what I wrote here in the
`Declaration.
` Q. Okay.
` Well, in your understanding of
`the use of the HTTPS protocol, when a device
`establishes communications with a server
`using that protocol, is the server's
`identity authenticated with a certificate?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Well, by definition, HTTPS uses
`certificates. That's part of the definition
`of the protocol.
` Q. So the user's device would
`contact the server and receive certificate
`information back and check to see if that
`certificate is valid before continuing
`communications?
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` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. What I stated before, I just
`want to repeat what I said, HTTPS uses
`certificates in order to establish
`authenticity of the server. Exactly how
`it's done, it depends on implementation.
` Q. But that authentication is a
`default in HTTPS?
` A. That's -- that's correct.
`Authentication using certificates is part of
`the HTTPS protocol.
` Q. So in your Declaration in
`paragraph 15, you state that Farm is on a
`subject of connecting data associated with
`mobile web browsing activities (of trusted
`applications that users willingly interact
`with) and the data associated with native
`mobile device application activities for the
`purpose of tracking user -- activities of
`users.
` You then continue and state that
`such communication is already conducted over
`secure communication channels using HTTPS as
`it is a well-known best practice to use
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`secure network protocols such as HTTPS to
`prevent man in the middle attacks using an
`end-to-end secure network protocol.
` There's no citation for that
`opinion of yours. What is your basis for
`that opinion?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. So you actually just I guess
`recited what I wrote here, so which part are
`you talking about? It's just all the
`sentences you just recited?
` Q. Okay. Well, let's break it down.
` What is the basis --
` A. Okay.
` Q. What is the basis of your
`position that Farm's communications are
`based on trusted applications?
` A. Okay. So this is -- this is my
`interpretation as a person of ordinary skill
`in the art.
` Q. And what is the basis of your
`opinion that this form of communication
`would be conducted over secure communication
`channels using HTTPS?
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` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. So if you look at Farm -- let me
`see where I talk about Farm -- so Farm is
`about -- so the purpose of this
`communication that is describing Farm is to
`track user activities, so such information
`is clearly very sensitive, private
`information, I think anyone who -- any
`person of ordinary skill in the art would
`agree this tracking information is privacy
`sensitive, so given that a POSITA would use
`secure communication, and this is what I
`stated.
` Q. Is it your opinion that Farm's
`communications are exclusively conducted
`over the HTTPS protocol?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Can you clarify your question?
`When you say exclusive, what types of
`communication are you talking about besides
`the tracking activities?
` Q. Sure.
` Even with the tracking
`activities, would the tracking activities be
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`exclusively communicated using the HTTPS
`protocol?
` A. As a POSITA, I interpret --
`well, with Farm, I interpret that such
`information described in Farm related to
`tracking activities of users is considered
`sensitive information. This is something,
`it's very clear, it's private information
`related to user, it's behavior on the
`network, on the internet, so, therefore, as
`a POSITA, I concluded that it is -- Farm
`discusses tracking activities, therefore, it
`needs to be protected in some way, and in
`order to protect such communication on the
`web, on the internet today, HTTPS is
`becoming the default network protocol for
`communication with web servers, and you can
`look at the reference I cite here dated
`January 1998.
` Q. Okay. We'll get to that in a
`moment.
` All right.
` Are you aware of anything in the
`actual disclosure of Farm that limits its
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`communications to the HTTPS protocol?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. I think I'm just going to repeat
`what I said. Because Farm is using -- is
`talking about tracking activities of users,
`so a person of ordinary skill in the art
`will interpret as this communication is for
`sensitive information, and because the
`citation I included here, communication over
`the web for sensitive information data
`exchange is the best common -- well-known
`best practice to use secure network
`protocols such as HTTPS.
` Q. We will get into your 1998 draft
`in a moment, but are you aware of any
`disclosure at all in Farm referencing the
`use of HTTPS protocol?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. You can search in Farm to see if
`it refers to HTTPS. This is something you
`can check.
` Q. I did, but I'm not the witness,
`so I was wondering if you did that same
`check?
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` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Well, I just said when I read
`Farm, the interpretation is such that it
`needs to use HTTPS. It's not relevant
`whether it explicitly says it uses HTTPS or
`not.
` Q. Would it surprise you if Farm
`had multiple citations to the use of HTTP
`protocol, but not a single counsel reference
`to the HTTPS protocol?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. It does not surprise me because
`it is something I also read in Farm.
`However, HTTPS is a -- is a form of --
`basically if you look at the two terms, HTTP
`and HTTPS, the difference is that there is
`an S. S is just additional configuration of
`HTTP protocol, and by default, today, all
`these HTTP servers enables the secure option
`of the protocol, that is the well-known
`common practice which is stated here in the
`application.
` Q. Okay.
` You are stating that that's the
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`default today, that you have the option, so
`if you have the option, then communications
`could proceed either by HTTP or HTTPS; is
`that correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. I think you are misinterpreting
`my -- the term option. I think the option
`is not a choice, it is a configuration
`option. It is enabled by default for the
`best common practice. So anyone who
`understands that this is sensitive
`information, then that is communicated over
`the network, will enable H -- will use HTTP,
`will have is enabled in the HTTP protocol.
` Q. Now, it is your opinion and
`you've stated repeatedly that HTTPS is the
`default protocol today. What evidence are
`you relying on that HTTPS was a default
`protocol in 2018 at the filing date of
`Farm -- I'm sorry -- at the filing date of
`the '951 patent?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Could you repeat your question?
`I -- I think I lost --
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` Q. Sure.
` A. -- track of what you were asking.
` Q. What is the basis of your
`opinion that in 2018 as of the filing date
`of the '951 patent, HTTPS was the default
`protocol for network communications?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Well, I think I believe I
`already answered this question earlier.
`Basically HTTPS is becoming the default
`network communication protocol with web
`servers which I include a citation here.
` Q. Okay.
` So the citation that you're
`referring to is that parenthetical, the
`datatracker.ietf.org document dated January
`1998?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And am I correct that that's not
`an exhibit you actually provided, that's
`just a citation; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` Q. Well, regardless, my
`understanding of that document is that is a
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`draft document introducing a discussion of
`the HTTP protocol using TLS. Would that be
`accurate?
` A. That's right.
` Q. And the HTTP protocol with TLS
`as it got adopted later is commonly now
`referred to as HTTPS; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Now, this 1998 draft, is there
`anything in this document that you could
`point to that would say that in 2018, HTTPS
`has become a default standard for
`communicating with network servers?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Well, I formed my opinion as a
`person of ordinary skill in the art about
`this is becoming a -- HTTPS is becoming the
`default network communication protocol with
`web servers, and the citation I included
`here shows the drafts of the IETF protocol
`specification of HTTP over TLS, yeah, which
`is a newer version of SSL, earlier I
`mentioned SSL, basically TLS is a newer
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`version of SSL protocol, so -- and this
`draft is 1998. Right? So essentially this
`has already been established as a protocol
`that is expected to be the secure version of
`network communication for communicating with
`the web servers.
` Q. I don't --
` A. And it's 1998, so, therefore, it
`is -- we know there are newer versions of
`this specification as well.
` Q. But you don't cite to any
`evidence to support your opinion that in
`2018, HTTPS had gained enough adoption to be
`considered a default protocol; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Anyone who is -- has -- is
`ordinary skill in the art would accept this
`as a fact because it is a -- if you look
`at -- so let me ask you a question, counsel.
`You visit your banking website? What is the
`protocol that that banking website uses? I
`can answer for you. It is HTTPS. No
`surprise there because it's sensitive
`information is exchanged when you do online
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`banking transactions. So it is just a
`default, it is an accepted fact.
` Q. As of 2018, did HTTPS completely
`replace the HTTP protocol?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. This is not a question that's --
`that's -- the question you just asked is not
`relevant. Whether it's completely replaced
`or not is not the question that we -- it's
`not of concern because there are always
`compromised host on internet who does bad
`things. However, someone who's -- who is
`ordinary skill in the art would understand,
`this is sensitive information just like
`anyone who sets up an online banking website
`would understand they have to use HTTPS, and
`this precedes the filing date of the '951
`patent in question here.
` Q. So in the '951 patent, is it
`your opinion that all communications are
`also conducted using the HTTPS protocol?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Again, you are asking a very
`misleading question. You just asked all
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`communications. Right? What I said here is
`communication relates to sensitive
`information in that particular context. The
`sensitive information we're talking about
`here in Farm relates to user tracking
`information, which is clearly sensitive.
`I'm not saying all communication. I'm
`saying communication with sensitive data
`exchange with web servers.
` Q. So presumably the inventors in
`Farm would be presumed to be skilled in the
`art of their own invention; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. I believe you're asking a very
`rhetorical question. Someone who writes the
`patents would be obviously knowledgeable
`about the material that they're writing
`patent on.
` Q. And if the inventors of Farm did
`not suggest the use of the HTTPS protocol,
`why would a person of ordinary skill in the
`art other than those inventors believe that
`that's what they intended?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
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` A. The inventors of Farm wrote HTTP
`even though it didn't say HTTPS, but HTTPS
`is basically the default configuration for
`HTTP for exchanging sensitive information.
` Q. Do you believe that the
`communications in Pasha are limited to the
`HTTPS protocol?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Can you refer me to where in my
`Supplemental Declaration this question is
`based on? I don't really know this is
`something I wrote about in my Supplemental
`Declaration.
` Q. In paragraph 16 of your
`Declaration, you indicate that the
`application installation system of Pasha by
`design involves interaction with a trusted
`server, e.g., Google Play store server,
`Apple's App Store with well-known
`certificates which are pre-installed with a
`mobile operating system without requiring
`users to install any new CAs.
` In this statement, are you
`assuming that communications in Pasha are
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`taking place using the HTTPS protocol as
`well?
` MS. BUSH: Objection to form.
` A. Well, as I stated here, this is
`about application installation, which is
`described in Pasha, so in order to install
`application as I wrote here, it involves
`communication with a trusted server because
`otherwise user using an untrusted server
`could potentially download malware, which is
`very undesirable, so, therefore, it involves
`communicating with a trusted server as
`stated here.
` Q. Or using other methods to
`establish trust; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection to form.
` A. Sorry, I'm not sure I understood
`your question. You said other methods?
`What other methods are you referring to?
` Q. Let me ask a different question,
`slightly different question.
` In the '951 patent, is the
`downloading of software conducted over a
`secure network using the HTTPS protocol?
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` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Downloading of the software, are
`you referring to Pasha?
` Q. No. I'm referring to the '951
`patent.
` A. Okay. Can you repeat the
`question? In '951, what's the question
`again?
` Q. Would the network communications
`involved in downloading and installing
`software in the '951 patent also require
`trusted servers?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Well, in the '951 patent, the
`goal is to download applications without
`interrupting user's interaction with, that's
`one of the goals, interaction with the
`current application user's interfacing with,
`so generally speaking, downloading
`application requires interaction with a
`trusted server. So by definition, trusted
`servers will use HTTPS in order to prevent
`man in the middle attacks.
` Q. So, in your opinion, the
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`communications used in the 951 patent would
`take place with a trusted server using
`HTTPS, which would preclude a man in the
`middle attack; is that correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. What I said was the part of the
`communication involving downloading the
`application to allow it to be installed on
`the mobile device in '951 is about --
`involves talking to a trusted server, so
`that trusted server uses HTTPS, so that
`particular communication is using HTTPS to
`prevent security problems such as man in the
`middle attacks.
` Q. So assuming that HTTPS is used
`and the network connection in the '951
`patent is inherently secure, why is it
`required in the '951 patent to use SSL
`pinning to authenticate the link prior to
`communicating with that server?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Could you repeat the question?
`I'm -- I don't -- didn't fully understood
`the -- understand the question.
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` Q. Sure.
` You've testified that in your
`opinion the communications involved in
`downloading software with the '951 patent
`would take place with a trusted server using
`HTTPS protocol, which would already preclude
`the vulnerability for man in the middle
`attacks; correct?
` A. Yes. HTTPS would help prevent
`man in the middle attacks.
` Q. And despite that, the '951
`patent suggests using SSL pinning to also
`prevent man in the middle attacks; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. I recall it did mention
`certificate pinning. Let me go to that.
` (Witness reviewing document.)
` A. Well, it says browser
`authentication denoted SSL Pinning prevents
`man in the middle attacks for server calls.
`So yes, that's what it says. It uses SSL
`pinning to prevent man in the middle attacks.
` Q. And it suggests using this even
`with the HTTPS protocol; correct?
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` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. It just suggests using SSL
`pinning. That's what it says. Whether
`it's -- it is also a -- it also says
`actually the server is configured using
`HTTPS and also the server has SSL installed
`on it, so yes, that's right. It discusses
`using HTTPS as well as SSL pinning according
`to what's written here in the patent.
` Q. And what this is describing, and
`this is in column 14, lines 53 to 63, is
`that, as you noted, the server is configured
`to use HTTPS protocol and has an SSL
`certificate installed on it, then the
`installation client has a record of the
`server's digital certificate --
` A. Sorry to interrupt. Which
`patent are you reading right now?
` Q. I'm reading the '951 patent.
` A. Okay. Okay.
` Q. The installation client, which
`is part of the '951 patent, has a record of
`the server's digital certificate, and on
`every call to the server, the installation
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`client first validates that the server's
`certificate matches the one that exists on
`the installation client and only on success
`continues the communication; correct?
` MS. BUSH: Objection. Form.
` A. Well, you're just reading what's
`in the patent. I'm not sure whether yo
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