UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`) )
`
`) )
`
` PTAB Case No:
`) PGR2021-00112
`)
`) Patent No. 11,029,903
`)
`
`) )
`
`)
`
` ROKU, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` FLEXIWORLD
` TECHNOLOGIES, INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`ZOOM REALTIME VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D., a Witness, taken on behalf
` of the Petitioner before Peggy E. Corbett, CSR,
` CCR, RDR, pursuant to Notice on the 18th day of
` August, 2022, at the offices of the witness in
` Fort Wayne, Indiana.
`
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`ROKU 1013
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`) )
`
`) )
`
` PTAB Case No:
`) PGR2021-00112
`)
`) Patent No. 11,029,903
`)
`
`) )
`
`)
`
` ROKU, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` FLEXIWORLD
` TECHNOLOGIES, INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`ZOOM REALTIME VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D., a Witness, taken on behalf
` of the Petitioner before Peggy E. Corbett, CSR,
` CCR, RDR, pursuant to Notice on the 18th day of
` August, 2022, at the offices of the witness in
` Fort Wayne, Indiana.
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`ROKU 1013
`
`
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
` APPEARING FOR THE PETITIONER:
` Mr. Patrick McKeever
` PERKINS COIE LLP
` 11452 El Camino Real
` Suite 300
` San Diego, California 92130
` pmckeever@perkinscoie.com
`
` APPEARING FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` Mr. Nathan Levenson
` NELSON BUMGARDNER PC
` 15020 South Ravinia Avenue
` Suite 29
` Orland Park, IL 60462
` 708.675.1974
` nathan@nelbum.com
`
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Peter Hudson
`
` I N D E X
` WITNESS: PAGE
` TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D.
` EXAMINATION BY MR. MCKEEVER 4
` CERTIFICATE 186
`
` E X H I B I T S
` NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
` EXHIBIT 1001 '903 patent 6
` EXHIBIT 2002 '413 application 92
` EXHIBIT 2007 '541 patent 6
` EXHIBIT 2009 Declaration in 6
` Support of the Patent
` Owner Response
` EXHIBIT 2010 '257 Patent 7
` Reporter's Note: The original exhibits were
` submitted to the court reporter for copying and
` distribution with retention by Mr. McKeever
` thereafter.
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` (Deposition commenced at 10:30 a.m. Eastern)
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
`
` record at 10:33 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time on
`
` August 18th, 2022, beginning the remote video
`
` recorded deposition of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D. taken
`
` in the matter of Roku, Inc. vs. Flexiworld
`
` Technologies, Inc. before the U.S. Patent and
`
` Trademark Office Patent Trial and Appeal Board
`
` PTAB, Case Number PGR2021-00112.
`
` My name is Peter Hudson, the
`
` videographer, and the court reporter is Peggy
`
` Corbett, both representing Veritext San Diego.
`
` Counsel, will you please state your
`
` appearances.
`
` MR. MCKEEVER: Patrick McKeever
`
` with Perkins Coie on behalf of Petitioner, Roku,
`
` Inc.
`
` MR. LEVINSON: Nathan Levinson with
`
` Nelson Bumgardner Conroy on behalf of Patent
`
` Owner, Flexiworld Technologies, Inc.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. The
`
` court reporter will swear the witness and you may
`
` then proceed.
`
` TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D.,
`
` a Witness, being first duly sworn, testified
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` under oath as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. MCKEEVER:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Cooklev.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. You have been deposed before, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. About how many times have you been
`
` deposed before?
`
` A. Maybe 15 to 20.
`
` Q. And you have been deposed in IPR
`
` proceedings before?
`
` A. Yes, I have.
`
` Q. You've served as a technical expert for
`
` Flexiworld in a number of IPR proceedings, right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I don't know if you know the numbers off
`
` the top of your head, but I believe you were
`
` Flexiworld's expert in the '064, '066, and '144
`
` patent IPR proceedings; do you know if that's
`
` correct?
`
` A. I believe three IPRs, yes, I don't
`
` remember the numbers clearly, but three IPRs,
`
` generally I remember that.
`
` Q. And you've also served as an expert for
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` Flexiworld in connection with an ex-parte
`
` reexamination proceeding on the '114 patent; is
`
` that right?
`
` A. I believe that's correct.
`
` Q. So you know, since you have been deposed
`
` a number of times I'm not going to spend too much
`
` time sort of going over the basics, but certainly
`
` if you don't understand any of my questions at
`
` any point during the deposition, please feel free
`
` to let me know and I will make an attempt to ask
`
` a better question if I can; is that fair?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you understand you're not supposed to
`
` consult with counsel for Flexiworld about your
`
` testimony during the course of the deposition?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Great. Is there any reason you can't
`
` provide complete and accurate testimony today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. And Dr. Cooklev, I think before
`
` we went on the record, it sounds like you were
`
` able to log into Exhibit Share; is that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Are you able to access the Marked
`
` Exhibits folder for today's deposition?
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` A. Yes, I believe so.
`
` Q. And do you see some documents already in
`
` that folder right now?
`
` A. Yes, I do.
`
` (Exhibit 1001 was marked by the
`
` reporter for identification.)
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Okay. And so I may
`
` add additional documents during the course of the
`
` deposition, but I've gone ahead and sort of
`
` pre-introduced a few exhibits that are already
`
` exhibits in the PGR proceeding. Just for the
`
` record, the ones that I have already put in the
`
` folder include Exhibit 1001 which is the '903
`
` patent. Do you see that one in the folder?
`
` A. I do.
`
` (Exhibit 2007 was marked by the
`
` reporter for identification.)
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Exhibit 2007, which
`
` is the '541 patent, do you see that one in the
`
` folder?
`
` A. I do.
`
` (Exhibit 2009 was marked by the
`
` reporter for identification.)
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Exhibit 2009 which is
`
` your Declaration in Support of the Patent Owner
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` Response, do you see that document in the folder?
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` A. I do.
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` (Exhibit 2010 was marked by the
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` reporter for identification.)
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` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) And Exhibit 2010,
`
` which is the '257 patent; do you see that
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` document in the folder?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. Great. Why don't you go ahead and open
`
` Exhibit 2009, which is your Declaration.
`
` A. What I did is I downloaded. I assume I
`
` had the permission to download all four exhibits.
`
` Q. Yes, that's fine, yeah.
`
` A. And so I downloaded them. You said
`
` Exhibit 2009.
`
` Q. Right, Exhibit 2009.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Can you confirm that Exhibit 2009 is the
`
` Declaration you prepared in support of
`
` Flexiworld's Patent Owner response in this '903
`
` PGR matter?
`
` A. Yes, I can.
`
` Q. I just want to sort of get ourselves
`
` oriented a little bit about the '903 patent, and
`
` kind of ease ourselves into it. So can you look
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` at Paragraph 116 of your Declaration which is on
`
` Page 62.
`
` A. Yes, I'm looking at it.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. And just, Counsel, just to let you know,
`
` I also have with me -- that's the only thing I
`
` have with me is a clean unmarked copy of this
`
` same Declaration, I have a hard copy, which I
`
` assume that I have your permission.
`
` Q. Yes.
`
` A. So I will be referring to both the
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` electronic copy. It's a little bit easier
`
` sometimes to use the hard copy.
`
` Q. Yeah, I don't have any problem with
`
` that. I have a hard copy in front of me, as
`
` well, so if it's more convenient for you to look
`
` at the hard copy, that's totally fine. The
`
` versions of these exhibits just for the record
`
` that I'm introducing I just pulled off of the,
`
` you know, the PTAB E2E website, so these are all
`
` the same versions that have been filed in the
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` proceeding, so yeah, please feel free to use your
`
` own copy.
`
` A. I'm just giving an explanation, so if
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` you see me looking to the side of me, what I'm
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` looking at, what I will be looking at is the hard
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` copy of my Declaration that I have.
`
` Q. Got it. I appreciate that. That's
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` totally fine. All right, so can you -- and
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` obviously with any of my questions asking you
`
` about the documents, feel free to read the
`
` document and, you know, look at the document to
`
` the extent you need to, to answer my question,
`
` but my first question is can you just tell me,
`
` you know, at a high level what you're talking --
`
` what you're discussing in Paragraph 116 of your
`
` Declaration.
`
` A. I believe I can answer your question.
`
` Starting with Paragraph 116 I'm just, if you
`
` will, giving a high level description of what the
`
` '903 patent is about.
`
` Q. Okay. And specifically in Paragraph 116
`
` in the first sentence you talk about solutions to
`
` shortcomings in the prior art, right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And so what are the shortcomings in the
`
` prior art that you discussed in Paragraph 116?
`
` A. Well, one shortcoming in the prior art
`
` is the need for the user to preinstall
`
` device-specific drivers or other software for
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` each output device.
`
` Q. Okay. Sorry, I didn't know you
`
` weren't -- please continue.
`
` A. Yes. And so this is one shortcoming in
`
` the prior art, and the '903 patent seeks to
`
` address this shortcoming.
`
` Q. Just give me a moment here. I just
`
` realized I never pulled up the realtime and I'm
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` going to try to do that if I can really quick.
`
` So can you explain why there was this
`
` need to preinstall device-specific drivers or
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` other software for each output device?
`
` MR. LEVINSON: Objection to form.
`
` A. Oh, that's, I think, that the state of
`
` the prior art, the art at the time of the
`
` invention in all the four devices to be able to
`
` output data to output devices, users have to
`
` install a device-specific driver.
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Okay.
`
` A. And it could be, in some cases there
`
` could be other software associated with a
`
` specific output device.
`
` Q. Okay. So if a user has a computing
`
` device and they want to output data to a specific
`
` output device the state of the art when the '903
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` patent applications were filed was that the user
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` would have to install a device-specific driver or
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` device-specific software in order to output to
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` that device; is that right?
`
` A. I mean that's -- again, at a high level
`
` description. I think that the '903 patent
`
` specifically recognizes that that was the status,
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` that was the issue at the time of the invention.
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` Q. And based on your knowledge of the art,
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` let's say the 2000, 2001 timeframe, do you think
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` that's an accurate characterization of the
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` state-of-the-art?
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` MR. LEVINSON: Objection,
`
` foundation.
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` A. I do. I believe that the patent, the
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` patent's specification adequately characterizes
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` the problems in the state of the art at the time
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` of the invention.
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) And when you say
`
` adequately characterizes the problems, would it
`
` be fair to say that you think the patent
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` adequately characterizes the problems in the
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` state of the art at the time of the invention?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And so why would a user need to install
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` a device-specific driver or device-specific
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` software to output data to a particular output
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` device?
`
` A. Well, the user has to install a
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` device-specific driver, in order for devices to
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` be able to output data to output devices.
`
` Q. But why? I mean devices can send data
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` to one another over a network, right? I mean,
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` you know, I could FTP a file from one machine to
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` another machine, right?
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` A. Well, first, just regarding your
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` example, FTP, regarding the FTP, I don't think I
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` could, or at least to the best of my memory here
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` since, just to make it clear, I don't remember
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` the contents of my entire Declaration, but I
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` don't think I have given an opinion about FTP.
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` Now I vaguely remember a -- now vaguely
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` remember, and I'm not sure at what time, but I
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` vaguely remember FTP capability but I think your
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` example, your FTP example is -- I mean that's
`
` just that, I just vaguely remember it, the FTP
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` capability, but why did users have to install
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` device-specific drivers? Again, to be able to
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` output data to output devices, that is why.
`
` Q. What is the device-specific driver
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` doing? Why does the device-specific driver
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` enable users to provide data to output devices?
`
` A. Well, I think at least the way I
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` understood why, understood your question, why did
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` users have to install a device-specific driver, I
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` mean again, the answer is to be able to output
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` data to output devices, otherwise you could not,
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` at the time of the invention, output data to
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` output devices.
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` Q. So at the time of the '903 invention, in
`
` order to output data from a user device to output
`
` devices, you had to install a device-specific
`
` driver for the output device; is that right?
`
` A. Generally, yes.
`
` Q. You said generally yes. Is there an
`
` exception you're thinking of, or is there some
`
` reason you're qualifying your answer there?
`
` A. I'm qualifying the answer because I
`
` think we are just talking at -- describing the
`
` state of the art at the high level, if you will.
`
` Q. Okay, and I think I asked this question
`
` before, and I'm not sure you really answered it,
`
` that's why I'm going to ask it again. Can you
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` tell me how the device-specific driver enables
`
` outputting data to a particular output device?
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` Like what does it do that's enabling the
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` user to output data to a particular output
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` device?
`
` MR. LEVINSON: Objection to form.
`
` A. That's -- I don't think I was asked to
`
` investigate this question and form an opinion
`
` what were device-specific drivers at the time
`
` exactly doing to enable outputting data to output
`
` devices. I have not analyzed this in more detail
`
` to be able to give you a better answer.
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) So at this time
`
` you're not able to tell me how a device-specific
`
` driver enabled devices to output data to output
`
` devices at the time of the invention; is that
`
` fair?
`
` A. I think that that's, I wasn't asked to
`
` just investigate what exactly were
`
` device-specific drivers doing at the time of the
`
` invention. Unless this is somewhere in my
`
` Declaration, I would say I can't give you a
`
` better answer.
`
` Q. Okay. Can you look at Paragraph 117 of
`
` your Declaration, Dr. Cooklev.
`
` A. Yes, I'm there.
`
` Q. And so again, with some of these initial
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` questions I'm just really trying to get us
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` oriented, so can you tell us what you're talking
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` about generally in Paragraph 117?
`
` A. So in Paragraph 117, I describe that the
`
` '903 patent discloses several solutions to
`
` address problems, to address the problems that
`
` existed at the time of the invention, such as the
`
` need to install device-specific drivers.
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` So the patent describes a process that
`
` unlike conventional output or printing does not
`
` require the installation of a device driver or
`
` special software to provide device-specific
`
` output data.
`
` So the patent discloses pervasive output
`
` operations that they may be executed completely
`
` or partially in a remote application server, and
`
` which reduces the workload of the information
`
` apparatus, and realizes device-independent
`
` pervasive output, and in particular, the patent
`
` teaches that this is advantageous for providing
`
` output capability to small and lower cost mobile
`
` devices, for example, which have limited memory
`
` and limited processing capability.
`
` Q. And so this solution that you discuss in
`
` Paragraph 117, that solution involves running a
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` device driver or application on a remote
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` application server instead of the user's
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` information apparatus; is that right?
`
` A. Well, as the patent itself describes, so
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` just to make sure, we are not here talking about
`
` the claims of the patent, or any of the claims,
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` but yes, the patent describes what I am talking
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` about in Paragraph 117.
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` Q. And so I mean just at a high level, do
`
` you have an opinion as to whether this solution
`
` that you talk about in Paragraph 117 is
`
` incorporated into the claims of the '903 patent?
`
` MR. LEVINSON: Objection to form.
`
` A. Well, first, again based on my
`
` understanding it could be legal principles, it's
`
` generally not proper to import just parts of the
`
` specification into the claims, so I don't want to
`
` do something like this.
`
` If you have in mind a specific paragraph
`
` of my Declaration where I discuss some -- the
`
` claims of the '903 patent, then maybe I can look
`
` at that.
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Yeah, I'm not asking,
`
` you know, in relation to some specific paragraph,
`
` but I was just curious whether you had a, you
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` know, you had an opinion one way or the other as
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` to whether the claims of the patent incorporate
`
` this solution that you describe in Paragraph 117.
`
` A. I don't think I have exactly formed an
`
` opinion about this.
`
` Q. That's fine. Let's look at the next
`
` paragraph, Paragraph 118. Can you take a look at
`
` that paragraph, Dr. Cooklev.
`
` A. Yes, I can.
`
` Q. And so again, just kind of a broad
`
` question, but can you tell me generally what
`
` you're discussing in Paragraph 118?
`
` A. Well, Paragraph 118 is about the output
`
` controller. So the patent discloses a novel
`
` output controller, and methods of using the
`
` output controller to eliminate the need to
`
` install a plurality of device-dependent dedicated
`
` drivers or applications in the information
`
` apparatus in order to output to a plurality of
`
` output devices.
`
` So further the patent discloses an
`
` output controller that may include processing
`
` components and operations to further process
`
` output data, including by converting the output
`
` data into a form that is more acceptable, more
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` compatible to an associated output device.
`
` Q. And so can you explain it a little bit
`
` further. I mean how would an output controller
`
` enable a user to output content to an output
`
` device without having to install a
`
` device-specific driver? How does it work?
`
` A. The patent teaches that an output
`
` controller includes components to process
`
` intermediate output data, and the information
`
` apparatus can output content to different output
`
` devices or output systems that include the output
`
` controller, even when those output devices are of
`
` different brand, different model, and with a
`
` different output engine and input data
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` requirements.
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` And so this is how it's working, and
`
` therefore, a user doesn't need to preinstall in
`
` the information apparatus, multiple dedicated
`
` device-dependent drivers.
`
` Q. Okay. And so this solution in Paragraph
`
` 118 that involves this, what you call the novel
`
` output controller, how does this solution relate
`
` to the solution you discuss in Paragraph 117
`
` where you used the application server?
`
` A. And I was just looking at the paper copy
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` of my report and so the question, I believe that
`
` the pending question is how does the output
`
` controller, the novel output controller that's
`
` disclosed by the '903 patent, and that I describe
`
` in Paragraph 118, how does it relate to the
`
` application server that is referenced in
`
` Paragraph 117?
`
` Q. Pretty close. Let me sort of maybe
`
` simplify it a little bit. So we talked about,
`
` you know, one solution in paragraph that you
`
` discussed in Paragraph 117 that involves using an
`
` application server, then in Paragraph 118 you
`
` talk about how a novel output controller can help
`
` to avoid the need to install device-specific
`
` drivers.
`
` My question is essentially, you know, is
`
` there a relationship between these two solutions?
`
` Are these solutions that are used together or are
`
` they different solutions? Does that make sense?
`
` A. I think the question does make sense,
`
` and so as you said, what is the relationship
`
` between them, and I went to Figure 1 of the
`
` patent which includes an output controller,
`
` that's the Figure 1, and it also includes an
`
` application server.
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` So and Figure 1 shows an output system,
`
` so it is one diagram of a pervasive output
`
` system, and so that's the relationship between an
`
` output controller and an application server.
`
` Q. So does the solution that you discuss in
`
` Paragraph 117 require using an output controller?
`
` A. Well, you said the solution in Paragraph
`
` 117. Paragraph 117 is not meant to completely
`
` illustrate a solution here, although the language
`
` about several solutions is in Paragraph 117.
`
` So Paragraph 117 is intended just to
`
` begin introducing the patent and what the patent
`
` is about. So in this sentence I think the
`
` question is a little bit misleading, that it's
`
` not a complete -- the intention of Paragraph 117
`
` is not to complete -- to illustrate one complete
`
` solution.
`
` Q. And that's fine. I'm not trying to
`
` suggest that it is. My question is simply, you
`
` know, if you want to use the solution that's in
`
` Paragraph 117, do you need to use an output
`
` controller?
`
` A. And I think the -- if one wants to -- we
`
` can look at the claim, and if the claim cites an
`
` output controller, then that claim would require
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` an output controller.
`
` Q. And if the claim doesn't require an
`
` output controller, then would the claim not
`
` require an output controller?
`
` MR. LEVINSON: Objection to form.
`
` A. I mean it --
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Sorry, let me
`
` withdraw the question. Looking at the realtime,
`
` it was a bad question. If the claim doesn't
`
` recite an output controller, would that mean the
`
` claim doesn't require an output controller?
`
` A. And I think because the question is not
`
` tied to a particular claim, just more generally,
`
` so that's how I would answer the question, and so
`
` in, just in general, if you will, if a claim
`
` doesn't cite the particular element, it seems to
`
` me that -- I mean it's -- one would need to look
`
` at how a person skilled would understand the
`
` claim.
`
` So that would be -- so even then I can't
`
` just agree that: "Oh, well, it's not really
`
` necessary." Maybe a person skilled reading the
`
` claim would understand that the claim still
`
` requires an output controller.
`
` So yeah, it depends on how a person
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` skilled reading the claim would understand it.
`
` Q. Okay. So I think we can circle back to
`
` that later in the context of the particular
`
` claim. So you reference Figure 1, and again sort
`
` of sticking with this, again this solution that
`
` you reference in Paragraph 117, you know, the
`
` solution at least in part involves, you know,
`
` executing device-specific drivers or applications
`
` in a remote application server, right? That's in
`
` the language you quote in Paragraph 117.
`
` A. Yeah, that's the language that I quote
`
` in Paragraph 117.
`
` Q. Okay. So I guess just, you know, in
`
` your reference in Figure 1, I mean just looking
`
` at Figure 1, if your application server has the
`
` driver on it, and processes, you know, the
`
` content into the format for the output device,
`
` what processing would be left for the output
`
` controller to do? Do you have any opinion about
`
` that?
`
` MR. LEVINSON: Objection, form.
`
` A. I don't think I have formed an opinion.
`
` It doesn't seem something that I was asked to
`
` look at.
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Okay. So in the
`
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` language you quote in Paragraph 117, a few lines
`
` up from the end of the paragraph, do you see it
`
` talks about, you know, using this solution and
`
` realizing device-independent pervasive output.
`
` Do you see that phrase "device-independent
`
` pervasive output"?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What does device-independent pervasive
`
` output mean?
`
` A. It's output that is device-independent.
`
` Q. I'm sorry, I still don't really get it.
`
` So what is device-independent about the output?
`
` A. Well, I think at first the question was:
`
` What does device-independent pervasive output
`
` mean?
`
` Q. Right.
`
` A. And I think to -- and I think it means
`
` output that is device-independent.
`
` Q. So it seems like you're kind of
`
` rearranging the words of the phrase, so that's
`
` why I'm not really getting it. What does it mean
`
` for output to be device-independent?
`
` I apologize if I am being obtuse. I
`
` just want to make sure I understand, as you
`
` understand this language.
`
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` A. Well, it's -- output is
`
` device-independent, which is different from,
`
` notably different from being device-specific, so
`
` the main characteristic in this context of the
`
` output is that it becomes device-independent, as
`
` opposed to device-specific.
`
` Q. And what's the difference? I just don't
`
` understand. What's the different between output
`
` that's device-independent and output that's
`
` device-specific?
`
` A. Well, first I -- it was not my task to
`
` analyze in more detail the characteristics of
`
` output, and just to point to specific, with more
`
` specificity, what makes a device-independent
`
` versus device-specific. So if that's your
`
` question, I am not sure that I have -- first, I
`
` don't think I was asked to investigate this, and
`
` I'm not sure I have formed an opinion here to be
`
` able to give you a better answer.
`
` But a device-independent output is
`
` output which because it's device-independent, it
`
` could be used by more than one device.
`
` Q. I don't know if this will help or not,
`
` but so this, you know, this is, obviously, kind
`
` of a compound phrase here, device-independent
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` pervasive output. I'm just wondering if we break
`
` it down a little bit. What does pervasive output
`
` mean?
`
` A. Well, I think here the specification,
`
` and I understand you want to break it down, but I
`
` think let me begin with the entire phrase.
`
` Device-independent pervasive output, as I said,
`
` it is output that is device-independent and for
`
` this reason it is pervasive, so maybe this helps
`
` with the understanding of the word pervasive.
`
` Q. So and I'm not trying to put words in
`
` your mouth. I'm just going to tell you how I
`
` understand this language, and I'm curious whether
`
` you agree or disagree with me.
`
` I understand this language as suggesting
`
` that this solution enables a user to pervasively
`
` output content to any type of output device, and
`
` because it works with any kind of output device,
`
` it's device-independent. Would you agree with
`
` that or do you think that I'm not interpreting
`
` this correctly?
`
` A. Well, almost, but now there could be
`
` some limitations, so I don't want to say that
`
` this works with any kind of device, but as long
`
` as it's for more than one device then this output
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` would be device-independent in the sense that is
`
` used here.
`
` Q. And I mean this seems like common sense
`
` to me, but you know, let me know if you disagree.
`
` I mean if this solution, you know, the one that
`
` you're referencing in Paragraph 117 relies on,
`
` you know, device-specific drivers or applications
`
` on the application server, whether or not this
`
` solution is going to enable you to output your
`
` particular device is going to depend on whether
`
` or not the driver for that device is on the
`
` application server, right?
`
` MR. LEVINSON: Objection to form.
`
` A. I don't think I agree with that.
`
` Q. (BY MR. MCKEEVER) Why not?
`
` A. First you are, I think you're asking me
`
` a question of something that I just wasn't, I
`
` believe wasn't asked to investigate, and I have
`
` not in detail, I have not analyzed it in my
`
` Declaration, so you are asking me right now to
`
` essentially give you an opinion right now whether
`
` the ability to output to a device depends on that
`
` driver, the driver for that device being executed
`
` in a remote application server.
`
` It seems to me the answer is no, to your
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` question, but, you know, it's to really support
`
` that, and give you -- I can't right now form an
`
` informed opinion why not, you
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