`ESTTA680530
`ESTTA Tracking number:
`06/29/2015
`
`Filing date:
`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`92058000
`Defendant
`Ahold Licensing Sarl
`HARVEY FREEDENBERG
`MCNEES WALLACE & NURICK LLC
`100 PINE ST, PO BOX 1166
`HARRISBURG, PA 17108-1166
`UNITED STATES
`trademarks@mwn.com, bgregg@mwn.com, hfreeden@mwn.com
`Testimony For Defendant
`Brian P. Gregg
`trademarks@mwn.com, bgregg@mwn.com, hfreeden@mwn.com
`/Brian P. Gregg/
`06/29/2015
`A4529838.PDF(269833 bytes )
`A4555486.PDF(5698162 bytes )
`
`Proceeding
`Party
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`Correspondence
`Address
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`Submission
`Filer's Name
`Filer's e-mail
`Signature
`Date
`Attachments
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`Page 1
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` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`NASH-FINCH COMPANY,
` Petitioner Cancellation No. 92058000
`
` v.
` Registration No. 4,283,988
`AHOLD LICENSING SARL, Mark: OUR FAMILY
` Registrant FOUNDATION & DESIGN
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - /
`
` Trial
` Deposition of: TRACY PAWELSKI
`
` Taken by: Petitioner
`
` Date: May 19, 2015, 9:27 a.m.
`
` Place: 100 Pine Street
` Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
`
` Reporter: Vicki L. Fox
` Registered Merit Reporter
` Notary Public
` and
` Drew Halton, Videographer
` Key Legal Video
`
` APPEARANCES:
`
` MERCHANT & GOULD
` By: HEATHER J. KLIEBENSTEIN, ESQUIRE
` Appearing on behalf of the Petitioner
`
` McNEES WALLACE & NURICK, LLC
` By: HARVEY FREEDENBERG, ESQUIRE
` AHOLD USA
` By: LISA A. SZALAJI, ESQUIRE
` Appearing on behalf of the Registrant
`
`Henderson Kashmere Wetmore, LLC
`(717)214-1182
`
`48c05fa0-d39d-401b-b334-912aaeab6737
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`
`
` INDEX TO WITNESS
`
`TRACY PAWELSKI Direct Cross Redirect Recross
`
`By Mr. Freedenberg 5 -- 78 --
`By Ms. Kliebenstein -- 33 -- --
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`Page 2
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` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`Pawelski Exhibits Page
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`1. Printout of the information from the records 12
` of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office,
` two pages.
`
`2. Our Family Foundation 2014 Charitable Vendor 17
` Partnership literature, AHOLD-00066 through
` AHOLD-00089.
`
`3. Summer 2012 Our Family Foundation Newsletter, 20
` four pages.
`4. Triple Winner Game Ticket for The Jimmy 24
` Fund.
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`5. Triple Winner Game 2015 Ticket for Memorial 24
` Sloan Kettering Cancer Center.
`6. Our Family Foundation Profit & Loss Statement, 29
` January through December 2012, AHOLD-00001
` and AHOLD-0002.
`7. Our Family Foundation Profit & Loss Statement, 29
` January through December 2013, AHOLD-00003
` and AHOLD-00004.
`8. Photograph of Our Family Foundation bags, 40
` Mug and Cooling Towel, AHOLD-00229.
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`9. Welcome to your Playspace, AHOLD-00245. 42
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` INDEX TO EXHIBITS (continued)
`Pawelski Exhibits Page
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`Page 3
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`10. Thank You! To our 2013 Founding Partners, 43
` AHOLD-00253.
`11. A series of signs affiliated with the 44
` Bridgeport, Connecticut playground,
` AHOLD-00247 through AHOLD-00252.
`12. Giant/Childrens Cancer/Johns Hopkins, 46
` Giant Foods Triple Winner Game Abbreviated
` Official Rules, AHOLD-00246.
`13. Stop & Shop Triple Winner Game - Complete 46
` Official Rules, AHOLD-00243 and AHOLD-00244.
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`14. Trade Secret Commercially Sensitive - 47
` Advertising Expenses for Our Family
` Foundation, AHOLD-00292.
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`15. Placeholder for AHOLD-00293 - AHOLD-00295. 52
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`16. Gittlen Insert, AHOLD-00256 through 58
` AHOLD-00271.
`17. Gittlen Insert, AHOLD-00272 through 60
` AHOLD-00287.
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`18. Placeholder for AHOLD-00296. 62
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`19. Examples of pages of the circulars with the 71
` thank you listed, AHOLD-00344 through
` AHOLD-00347.
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`20. Placeholder for AHOLD-00297, Penetration 74
` By Fiscal Year Physical and Phantom HHs
` By Division, 2014 data through 9/20/14.
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`21. Placeholder for AHOLD-00396. 75
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`Page 4
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the record.
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`Today's date is May 19, 2015. The time is 9:27 a.m.
`
`This begins the deposition of Tracy Pawelski in the
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`matter of Nash-Finch Company, Petitioner v. Ahold
`
`Licensing, Respondent in the United States Patent and
`
`Trademark Office before the Trademark Trial and
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`Appeal Board, Cancellation Number: 92058000.
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` This deposition is being taken at the
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`offices of McNees Wallace and Nurick, LLC, 100 Pine
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`Street, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania on behalf of the
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`Defendant.
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` The videographer today is Drew Halton of Key
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`Legal Video located at 308 Glendale Street, Carlisle,
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`Pennsylvania. The court reporter is Vicki Fox of HKW
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`Court Reporters located at 764 Corporate Circle,
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`Suite, 200, New Cumberland, Pennsylvania 17070.
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` Will counsel identify themselves and state
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`whom they represent?
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` MR. FREEDENBERG: Harvey Freedenberg, I
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`represent Ahold Licensing, the Respondent in this
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`proceeding.
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` MS. KLIEBENSTEIN: Heather Kliebenstein, I
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`represent Nash-Finch Company, the Petitioner in this
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`proceeding.
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` MS. SZALAJI: Lisa Szalaji, I am inhouse
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`Tracy Pawelski - Direct Examination
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`counsel with Ahold USA representing its affiliate
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`Ahold Licensing, Sarl.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
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`please swear in the witness?
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`Page 5
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` TRACY PAWELSKI,
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` called as a witness, being duly sworn,
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` testified as follows:
`
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
`
` Q Good morning, Ms. Pawelski.
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` A Good morning.
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` Q Will you state your full name and address,
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`please?
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` A My full name is Tracy, middle initial is U.
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`My last name is Pawelski. My address is 517 Cobbler
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`Court, Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania 17050.
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` Q Where are you employed?
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` A Well, until Friday I was employed at Ahold
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`USA, 1149 Harrisburg Pike, Carlisle.
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` Q So as of Friday you --
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` A Friday was my last day.
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` Q -- no longer work for that company. When
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`you last worked for Ahold USA, what was your
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`position?
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`Tracy Pawelski - Direct Examination
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`Page 6
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` A My position was Vice-President External
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`Communications and Community Relations for Ahold USA.
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` Q How long had you held that position before
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`you left the company?
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` A I've been with the company for 10 years,
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`five years in that most recent position.
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` Q Could you briefly describe what your duties
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`were in that position?
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` A I had responsibilities and oversight for all
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`press relations, external communications, crisis
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`communications, reputation management, working with
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`the divisions, which is the way that we are
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`organized, our retail divisions, and Peapod in press
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`communications and also helping them from a community
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`relations perspective.
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` I also helped to manage Our Family
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`Foundation on behalf of the Board of Directors.
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` Q How long had you had the responsibility for
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`managing Our Family Foundation?
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` A For approximately five years since I took
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`the position of Vice-President External
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`Communications.
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` Q Did you have any assistance in your duties
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`in managing Our Family Foundation?
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` A I do. I have predominantly a manager who
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`Page 7
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`helps to manage the day-to-day.
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` Q What is her name?
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` A Her name is Debbie Hill.
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` Q Could you describe generally what her duties
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`are in that position?
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` A Debbie is responsible for things like the
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`minutes and the recordkeeping, working closely with
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`the folks at AFS -- which stands for Ahold Financial
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`Services -- who manage our books. Some of the
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`programs and the events that are managed through Our
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`Family Foundation, Debbie would take the lead on as
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`well.
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` Q Has your replacement been named?
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` A We have an interim. His name is Chris
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`Brand. He has assumed at least on a temporary basis,
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`potentially a permanent basis, my responsibilities.
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` Q Will you please describe generally the
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`business of Ahold USA?
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` A Ahold USA is largely the support
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`organization that supports grocery retail divisions
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`that stretch from Massachusetts down to Virginia. We
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`also have Peapod, which is the nation's leading
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`grocery delivery service based out of Chicago as part
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`of our family of brands.
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` Q How many divisions operate under the
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`Page 8
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`umbrella of Ahold USA?
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` A Four divisions, plus Peapod.
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` Q Would you identify those divisions?
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` A Sure. Stop & Shop New England, Stop & Shop
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`New York Metro, Giant Landover and Giant Carlisle.
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` Q The geographic territory of the Stop & Shop
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`retail divisions seems apparent from their names.
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`What is the geographic territory of Giant Landover?
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` A Giant Landover operates in Maryland,
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`Washington, D.C., Delaware and Virginia.
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` Q And Giant Carlisle?
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` A Giant Carlisle operates in Pennsylvania,
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`West Virginia, Maryland and Virginia.
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` Q Is there another banner that is associated
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`with the Giant Carlisle Division?
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` A Yes, it is called Martin's Food Markets.
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` Q Where does Martin's operates?
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` A Martin's operates any of the stores south of
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`the Mason Dixon Line, plus a couple of the stores in
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`the western part of Pennsylvania, and I believe in
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`the western part of Maryland and West Virginia.
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` Q During your time with Ahold, were there
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`other retail divisions that the company once owned or
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`operated that it no longer owns?
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` A Well, we've had other companies associated
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`Tracy Pawelski - Direct Examination
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`with us prior to our reorganization to this division
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`structure. Bi-Lo would be an example over time.
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`Page 9
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`Tops would be an example.
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` Q Was there also a --
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` A They weren't part of a division structure
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`though. That came after they were divested.
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` Q But they were chains of grocery stores that
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`were operated -- or owned by Ahold?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Was there also one called Bruno's?
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` A Bruno's is another.
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` Q Was the geographic territory of the company
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`larger at one time --
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` A It was.
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` Q -- than it currently is? How far did the
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`geography of Ahold stretch at one time?
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` A I am not familiar with how far south, but
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`Bruno's and Bi-Lo was further south. And Tops was
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`largely in northeast Ohio and western New York.
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` Q What is Our Family Foundation?
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` A Our Family Foundation is a vehicle for us to
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`support charitable organizations within our market
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`footprint. It is largely funded through vendor
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`funds. And when we rebuilt the business in 2009,
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`2010, we had a lot of different programs that we
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`Page 10
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`wanted to put together under one umbrella. These
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`were largely vendor supported programs.
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` So instead of asking the vendors many, many
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`times to support individual fundraisers, we brought
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`everything -- aggregated everything under the
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`auspices of Our Family Foundation. So we asked them
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`once. And instead of individual fundraisers, we have
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`assets of participation.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record.
`
` (Discussion held off the record.)
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
`
` Q When was Our Family Foundation created?
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` A Our Family Foundation was created when we
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`put the two -- we had two foundations previously.
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`The Stop & Shop Giant Landover Family Foundation and
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`the Our Kids Foundation, which were merged under Our
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`Family Foundation. The work was done in late 2011
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`for a launch in the very beginning of 2012.
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` Q So Our Family Foundation has been engaged in
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`fundraising activities for almost three and a half
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`years at this point; correct?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Where did the name Our Family Foundation
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`come from?
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` A As mentioned, we had two foundations in our
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`Page 11
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`family of companies, including the Stop & Shop Giant
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`Landover Family Foundation and the Our Kids
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`Foundation, which was attached to the Giant Carlisle
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`Division. So in trying to protect or acknowledge the
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`legacy of both of those foundations with the merger,
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`we called it Our Family Foundation.
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` Q Did the choice of that name have anything to
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`do with a private label brand called Our Family owned
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`by Nash-Finch Company?
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` A It did not.
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` Q Did you know anything about that brand when
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`the name was chosen?
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` A I did not.
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` Q I guess my question assumed that you were
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`involved in helping to choose the name for Our Family
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`Foundation.
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Did the Nash-Finch brand Our Family come up
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`in any discussions regarding selection of the name?
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` A It did not.
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` Q Do you know anything about a foundation
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`operated by Nash-Finch called the NFC Foundation?
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` A I do not.
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` Q In the context of the work of Our Family
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`Foundation, has there ever been any discussion about
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`Tracy Pawelski - Direct Examination
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`the activities of the NFC Foundation?
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` A No, there has not.
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` Q Has there ever been any discussion about any
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`of the charitable fundraising activities of the
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`Page 12
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`Nash-Finch Company?
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` A No, not to my knowledge.
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` Q Does Ahold have a federal trademark
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`registration for the mark Our Family Foundation?
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` A Yes, we do.
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` (Ahold Exhibit 1 was produced and marked for
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`identification.)
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
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` Q I am showing you a document that we have
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`marked as Ahold Exhibit 1. This is a printout of the
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`information from the records of the U.S. Patent and
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`Trademark Office.
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` Would you take a moment to look at that
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`document, please?
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` A (Witness complies.)
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` MS. KLIEBENSTEIN: Harvey, is it the test
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`printout?
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` MR. FREEDENBERG: Yes.
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` MS. KLIEBENSTEIN: Okay.
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` A Okay.
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
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`Tracy Pawelski - Direct Examination
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`Page 13
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` Q Can you identify the trademark that is
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`depicted on this document Ahold Exhibit 1?
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` A Yes. It is the Our Family Foundation name
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`and logo.
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` Q And you used the word logo in answering that
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`question. So there is a logo or a design associated
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`with this mark?
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` A Yes, there is.
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` Q Were you involved in developing that design?
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` A Yes, I was.
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` Q Would you explain to us, please, your role
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`in developing the design.
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` A We have an inhouse Advertising and Graphic
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`Design Department. And when we gave them the name,
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`we gave them a few sort of thoughts on how to -- what
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`we were trying to depict was kids and community and
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`some of the work that we do in our communities with
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`our beneficiaries.
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` We had a couple of drafts. This is the one
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`that the Board chose which depicts three houses with
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`a heart in the middle.
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` Q Did you review the design of any trademarks
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`owned by Nash-Finch Company for its mark Our Family
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`in connection with developing this design?
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` A We did not.
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` Q What are the services that are covered by
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`this registration? I direct your attention to
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`directly under Design, there is an item that says
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`goods and services.
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` A Charitable fundraising services.
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` Q Has Ahold ever registered or sought to
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`register this mark for anything other than charitable
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`fundraising services?
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` A We have not.
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` Q Would that include for any types of products
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`that are sold in grocery stores?
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` A No.
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` Q Has Ahold ever used or sought to use the
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`mark apart from any registration for anything other
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`than charitable fundraising services?
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` A No.
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` Q And that would include use for products sold
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`in grocery stores?
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` A Correct.
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` Q You can put that exhibit aside.
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` A Okay.
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` Q Would you describe generally the types of
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`charities that Our Family Foundation supports?
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` A Our giving is based on local efforts that
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`fight hunger, improve the quality of life for
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`Page 15
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`children and help to build healthy communities. In
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`terms of fighting hunger, we work with our regional
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`Food Bank partners predominantly on programs that
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`feed more kids.
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` Improving the quality of life for children,
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`we typically think of that in terms of our work with
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`children's hospitals and the fight and funding for
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`pediatric cancer research and care. We have a couple
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`of other beneficiaries that are also related to
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`children's health and nutrition in the form of YMCA's
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`and Boys and Girls Clubs.
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` We have a small grant that goes to Newton
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`Wellesley for children's mental health services, and
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`we also have a beneficiary named the Gittlen Cancer
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`Research Institute, which conducts cancer research at
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`Penn State Hershey Medical Center.
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` Q You anticipated my next question which is
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`who are some of the specific beneficiaries by name of
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`Our Family Foundation's major charitable giving?
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` A So some of the major beneficiaries under the
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`area of pediatric cancer research include Dana
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`Farber.
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` Q And that's located where?
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` A In Boston. Memorial Sloan Kettering in New
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`York, the Children's Cancer Foundation located in
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`Page 16
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`Maryland and the Johns Hopkins Sidney Kimmel Cancer
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`Institute also located in Maryland.
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` Q Does Our Family Foundation donate funds to
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`something called the Jimmy Fund?
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` A The Jimmy Fund is affiliated with the Dana
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`Farber Cancer Institute, yes.
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` Q Does Our Family Foundation ever donate
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`products to any of these organizations such as food
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`products, grocery products rather than money?
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` A No.
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` Q Could you explain how Our Family Foundation
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`raises the money that it gives to these various
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`organizations that you have just identified?
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` A Largely, we work with our vendor partners to
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`REDACTED
`raise money.
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`REDACTED
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` The folks in our business who
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`have a relationship with key vendors -- so if you
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`want to think about the main manufacturers, Unilever,
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`Kraft, General Mills -- the person who has that
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`relationship in the business is responsible for
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`raising money and brokering that relationship.
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` We also have vendors who supply to us
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`various services like legal services, not for resale
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`services. So those associates who have those
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`relationships also raise those monies.
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` We have a little bit of money coming through
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`Our Family Foundation that is customer raised;
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`although, it is raised for the purposes of the
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`individual beneficiaries such as the Children's
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`Miracle Network.
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` MR. FREEDENBERG: Heather, our next exhibit
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`is the 2014 Charitable Vendor Partnership Document.
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`We are going to mark that as Ahold Exhibit 2.
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` (Ahold Exhibit 2 was produced and marked for
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`identification.)
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
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` Q Ms. Pawelski, I have placed before you an
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`exhibit that we have marked as Ahold Exhibit 2. If
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`you would take a minute just to briefly examine the
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`document, go through the pages just to make sure you
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`are familiar with what is there, then I have a few
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`questions for you about it.
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` A (Witness complies.) I'm ready.
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` Q First of all, describe generally what this
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`document is.
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` A This is the Our Family Foundation 2014
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`Charitable Vendor Partnership. This would be
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`distributed to vendors in late 2013 encouraging their
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`support for our 2014 efforts. It gives a little bit
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`of a recap, both in terms of photos as well as a
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`Tracy Pawelski - Direct Examination
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`letter from our Chief Operating Officer on what we
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`gave to the year before, and a little bit more on the
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`types of programs that are supported by Our Family
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`Page 18
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`Foundation.
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` The second half of the brochure is dedicated
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`to the benefits of partnership at various levels. We
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`RE
`start with our highest level of Founding Partners
`DA
` and what they get in terms of recognition,
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`REDACTED
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`special events and other benefits. And then it goes
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`down through to lower levels and ala carte.
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` Q If you would, look at Page 7, please.
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` A (Witness complies.)
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` Q The heading on that page is Create Miracles.
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`Does that identify various medical institutions that
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`are supported by the fundraising activities of Our
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`Family Foundation?
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` A That's correct. These are Children's
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`Miracle Network Hospitals that we support.
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` Q If you would, take a look at Page 14.
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` A (Witness complies.)
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` Q I think you alluded to this in your
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`testimony a moment ago, but does this page and the
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`several following pages identify various categories
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`of sponsorship or partnership as a part of the Our
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`Family Foundation charitable vendor partnership?
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`Page 19
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` A Yes, it does.
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`REDACT
` Q It starts at the highest level
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` all the way down to something that is called
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`REDACTED
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`Ala Carte. And the Ala Carte, would that allow
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`vendors to pick and choose among different
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`fundraising options?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q You said this document is sent out late in
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`the year preceding the date on the document. So this
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`2014 document would have been sent out in late 2013?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Who is responsible for follow-up after the
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`initial mailing of the document?
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` A Typically, our category managers. Again,
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`those associates who have a relationship with each of
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`the individual company representatives with whom we
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`work.
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` Q In your experience, do the vendors who are
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`asked to contribute to this program carefully
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`consider whether or not they are going to
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`participate?
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` A Absolutely.
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` MS. KLIEBENSTEIN: Objection, foundation.
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`Calls for speculation.
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
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`Page 20
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` Q If you would turn to -- actually, we will do
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`that with another document. One final question on
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`this Charitable Vendor Partnership document. Is
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`there any attempt in this fundraising to associate
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`the activities of Our Family Foundation with any
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`charitable fundraising activities of the Nash-Finch
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`Company?
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` A There is not.
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` Q Or the NFC Foundation?
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` A No.
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` MR. FREEDENBERG: Before we move onto the
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`next exhibit, I want to substitute this copy. I
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`think somehow you got a lesser quality copy of this.
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`This is a better copy.
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
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` Q Does Our Family Foundation periodically
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`communicate with its donors and beneficiaries?
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` A We do.
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` Q And what are the mechanisms for that
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`communication?
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` A Our main vehicle for communications is a
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`quarterly newsletter.
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` MR. FREEDENBERG: We are going to mark this
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`next document as Ahold Exhibit 3. This is the Summer
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`2012 Newsletter.
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` (Ahold Exhibit 3 was produced and marked for
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`Page 21
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`identification.)
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
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` Q Ms. Pawelski, you have in front of you an
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`exhibit that we have marked as Ahold Exhibit 3. Can
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`you identify this document?
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` A Yes, this is the Summer 2012 Edition of Our
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`Family Foundation Newsletter.
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` Q How often do those newsletters come out?
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` A Quarterly.
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` Q Is this representative of the type of
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`information that is included in these newsletters?
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` A It is.
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` Q If you would turn to the third page of the
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`newsletter, on the right-hand side of the page, there
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`is a heading 2012 Charitable Vendor Partners, and
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`then there are various companies that are listed
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`under the heading Founding Partners, Platinum
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`Partners. And then if you continue onto Page 4, you
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`see Silver Partners and then Supporting Partners?
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` A Right.
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` Q Explain how this listing ties into -- if it
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`does -- the Charitable Vendor Partnership document we
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`identified as Exhibit 2?
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` A Yes. So these are the 2012 partners at
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`Page 22
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`various levels. You can see their logos. It is one
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`more way that we give them a little bit of visibility
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`and our thanks.
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` We have a lot of Gold Partners as well.
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`They are not identified in this newsletter, but in
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`the next one because they take up a whole page.
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` Q And the group of companies that are listed
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`under the heading Founding Partners, those are ones
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`REDACTED
`who gave at least
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` each to the Foundation; is
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`that correct?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q And the Platinum Partners, what was the
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`level of their contribution?
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`REDACTED
` A
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` Q And you said the Gold Partners are not
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`listed. What level is that?
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`REDACTED
` A They are
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` Q Silver Partners who are on Page 4?
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`REDACTED
` A
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` Q And then Supporting Partners?
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`REDACTED
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` Q Are the Ala Carte donors recognized in some
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`fashion in these newsletters?
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` A They are not recognized in this one. They
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`are a fairly long list so they don't get the same
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`Page 23
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`kind of logo recognition.
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` Q Who receives this newsletter?
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` A This newsletter is sent out to our vendor
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`partners through the vendor data base. It's also
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`sent out internally to our associates, as well as to
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`our charitable partners, a discreet list of our
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`beneficiaries as well.
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` Q Is this document distributed to the general
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`public? For example, would it be available to a
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`customer coming into the store to pick it up?
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` A It is not. In fact, it is only distributed
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`in an electronic format.
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` Q Is it distributed to the news media as you
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`would a press release, for example?
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` A It is not.
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` Q We've talked about the fundraising
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`activities of Our Family Foundation as they're
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`directed to vendors and suppliers. Does the
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`Foundation direct any of its fundraising efforts to
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`what I will call retail consumers?
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` A The Foundation, there is some passthrough
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`from a couple of customer campaigns that come back
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`through Our Family Foundation.
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` Q Identify those campaigns by name if you can.
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` A So the two front end what we would call
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`Page 24
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`solicitation campaigns in the Giant Carlisle Division
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`are associated with the Children's Miracle Network
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`Hospital fundraising. They are a paper balloon
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`campaign and a paper candle campaign where we invite
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`the customers to donate a dollar at the checkout.
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` The Triple Winner Program is run in the Stop
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`& Shop and Giant Landover Division. It is
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`administered by Our Family Foundation, but again, the
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`relationship is between the brand and Dana Farber,
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`Memorial Sloan Kettering, the Children's Cancer
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`Foundation and Johns Hopkins.
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` Q So the Children's Miracle Network
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`fundraising you said takes place in the Giant
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`Carlisle stores. Is there any indication that that
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`money is being raised for Our Family Foundation?
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` A There is not.
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` (Ahold Exhibits 4 and 5 were produced and
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`marked for identification.)
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`BY MR. FREEDENBERG:
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` Q I am showing you two what I will call
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`lottery tickets or raffle tickets that we have marked
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`as Ahold Exhibits 4 and 5. And for the record,
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`Exhibit 4 is a Stop & Shop ticket with the logo of
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`the Jimmy Fund. Exhibit 5 is also a Stop & Shop
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`Triple Winner game ticket with the logo of Memorial
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`Page 25
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`Sloan Kettering Cancer Center.
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` Take a moment to look at those both front
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`and back.
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` A (Witness complies.) One clearly says 2015.
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`The other one does not. I'm just trying to make sure
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`I understood -- if I knew which year they were. It
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`is so small I can't figure out which way to look at
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`it.
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` Q Need glasses?
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` A Really. Got it. Okay.
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` Q Looking at those two tickets, can you
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`describe what they are?
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` A So these are the tickets that when a
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`customer makes a donation, we give them a ticket to
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`win a prize which they scratch off. And this one is
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`$2 in cash, for example, that they won.
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` Q That would be Exhibit 4 that you just held
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`up?
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` A Exhibit Number 4, that's right. An