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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - -
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`PARROT S A and PARROT, INC , ) Case IPR2014-00730
`)
` Petitioners, ) Patents 7,584,071
`) 8,106,748
`)
`
` vs
` )
`DRONE TECHNOLOGIES, INC , )
`)
` Patent Owner )
`
`- - -
`
` Deposition of DR RAFFAELLO D'ANDREA
`
` Thursday, January 8, 2015
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`- - -
`
` The deposition of DR RAFFAELLO D'ANDREA, called
`as a witness by the Patent Owner, pursuant to notice
`and Rules 26 and 30 of the Federal Rules of Civil
`Procedure, and 37 C F R 42 53, pertaining to the
`taking of depositions, taken before me, the
`undersigned, Melissa L Fenster, a Notary Public in
`and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, at the
`Offices of Beck & Thomas, P C , 1575 McFarland Road,
`Suite 100, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15216, commencing
`at 8:22 o'clock a m , the day and date above set
`forth
`
`- - -
` COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION BY
` MORSE, GANTVERG & HODGE, INC
` PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA
`412-281-018
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`APPEARANCES:
` On behalf of the Petitioners:
` Osha Liang:
` James Hopenfeld, Esquire
` 2200 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
` Fourth Floor
` Washington, D.C. 20037
` Osha Liang:
` Han-Mei Tso, Esquire
` Two Houston Center, Suite 3500
` 909 Fannin Street
` Houston, Texas 77010
` On behalf of the Patent Owner:
` Beck & Thomas, P.C.:
` Gene Tabachnick, Esquire
` James G. Dilmore, Esquire
` 1575 McFarland Road, Suite 100
` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15216
`- - -
`INDEX
`- - -
`EXAMINATION:
`BY MR. TABACHNICK
`BY MR. HOPENFELD
`
`PAGE:
`6
`322
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`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
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`PAGE:
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`2001 Declaration Signature Page, '071 72
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`2002 Appendix A, Materials Considered by 103
` Dr. Raffaello D'Andrea
`112
`2003 Smith Patent
`125
`2004 Potiron Patent, French
`2005 Translation Certification 125
`2006 Declaration, '071
`176
`2007 Lee Patent, '071
`186
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`EXHIBITS (CONT )
`200
`2008 Bathiche Patent
`286
`2009 Declaration, '748
`2010 Parrot Exhibits 1011 and 1010 287
`2011 Lee Patent, '748
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`OBJECTIONS:
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`PARROT EXHIBIT 1015
`Parrot, Inc. v. Drone
`Technologies, Inc.
`IPR2014-00732
`
`1 (Pages 1 to 4)
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` DR. RAFFAELLO D'ANDREA
`called as a witness by the Patent Owner, having been
`first duly sworn, as hereinafter certified, was
`deposed and said as follows:
`EXAMINATION
`BY MR. TABACHNICK:
` Q Good morning, Dr. D'Andrea. Am I
`pronouncing your name correctly?
` A Close enough.
` Q How do you pronounce it?
` A D'Andrea is the Italian way, but D'Andrea
`is fine.
` Q When you introduce yourself, do you say
`D'Andrea or --
` A I introduce myself as Raff usually, so.
` Q All right. I wouldn't be comfortable
`calling you Raff in a --
` A Whatever you're more comfortable with.
` Q So forgive me if I --
` A That's fine.
` Q -- go with Dr. D'Andrea. Welcome to
`Pittsburgh.
` A Thank you.
` Q My name is Gene Tabachnick. I'm one of the
`lawyers representing Drone Technologies, Inc. in the
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`proceedings that we have against Parrot. Are you
`familiar with those proceedings?
` A I am.
` Q And we invited you here today so that we
`could take your deposition in connection specifically
`with the IPR Proceedings. Are you aware of that?
` A I am.
` Q When was the first time you offered a
`formal opinion regarding the validity of a patent?
` A When was the first time I offered a formal
`opinion about the validity of a patent? In these
`proceedings.
` Q So this is the first time. You're a
`novice.
` A I'm a novice.
` Q How did you come to be involved in Parrot's
`validity challenge?
` A They contacted me in February of 2014.
` Q Who contacted you, sir?
` A I'm trying to remember exactly who it was.
`I actually think it was --
` It might have been you, James.
` MR. HOPENFELD: It might have been.
` A Yeah.
` Q And he called you or --
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` A He sent me an email.
` Q And you were in Zurich at the time?
` A No. I was in Sochi at the Olympics.
` Q What did the email say, do you recall?
` A The exact details, of course, I don't
`recall, but it was along the lines of if was available
`to participate in a patent litigation case involving
`Parrot.
` Q Okay. And had you ever participated in a
`patent litigation case before?
` A Not in a patent litigation case, but let's
`say -- when was that -- maybe 15 years ago when I was
`at Cornell University I was retained by Covington &
`Burling to go over some patents.
` Q To do a technical review?
` A Yeah. A technical review, yeah.
` Q Did either Mr. Hopenfeld or anybody from
`Parrot explain why they wanted you to help them with
`the patent litigation case?
` A They asked me if was -- if I could help
`them determine the validity of some patents.
` Q My question was a little different. I'm
`going to have the court reporter read it back.
` A Sure.
` (Last question read back.)
`
`2 (Pages 5 to 8)
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` A Why me in particular, is that --
` Q Yes.
` A -- how I can read that question?
` Q Yes.
` A They felt that I was an expert in the area.
` Q Did you feel that you were an expert in the
`area?
` A Absolutely.
` Q Which area are we talking about, sir?
` A Control systems, and specifically how they
`relate to flying things.
` Q To flying things did you say?
` A Yeah.
` Q Now, when you refer to flying things, what
`sort of flying things are you talking about?
` A Things that fly. I mean, I don't know what
`more detail you want me to --
` Q Okay. Well, we're not talking about birds,
`right?
` A No, no.
` Q We're not talking about frisbies?
` A No.
` Q Okay. So we're talking about mechanical
`devices or electrical devices?
` A Yeah, electromechanical devices.
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`within the realm of controlling dynamic systems?
` A In the realm of control systems.
` Q Of control systems. Did I miss hear you?
`Did you say dynamic systems or --
` A Control, control of dynamic systems, it's
`very difficult for me to pinpoint the area of what I
`do.
` Q Okay. So let me just tell you you're way
`smarter than I am about this stuff so if --
` MR. HOPENFELD: No objection.
` Q So if I take a little longer to understand
`what you're saying, please bare with me. The other
`thing is if I don't use the right terminology -- and I
`will try, but if I'm not using thing right
`terminology, then please let me know.
` A Sure, sure.
` Q If I ask a question and you don't
`understand it, please --
` A Absolutely.
` Q -- tell me.
` A Absolutely.
` Q And I'll ask it the right way.
` Also, you have to wait until I finish
`speaking before you answer so that the court reporter
`can get down everything that's said.
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` Q So airplanes or drones in this case?
` A Right.
` Q Or helicopters?
` A Right.
` Q Is that where your particular expertise
`lies?
` A My expertise is in controlling dynamical
`systems.
` Q Dynamical did you say?
` A Yeah, controlling dynamical systems.
` Q And is that different than controlling
`flying things?
` A Controlling flying things is one aspect of
`controlling things.
` Q So when they asked you if you could help
`them with a patent litigation, how did you respond?
` A I responded that I may be able to do it and
`that it would depend on -- I would have to look at the
`patents in question.
` Q And why did you want to look at the patents
`in question?
` A To make sure that I would be able to offer
`an expert opinion. If it was outside of my area of
`expertise, I would have said no.
` Q So you just wanted to make sure it was
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` MR. HOPENFELD: And so I can object, if
` necessary.
` Q But if I ask a question and you answer it,
`I'm going to assume that you understood the question.
`Fair enough?
` A Yeah.
` Q All right. So you wanted to look at the
`patents. How many patents were there?
` A Two.
` Q And was that the next thing you did? You
`looked at the patents?
` A I recall that to be the case.
` Q Okay. Mr. Hopenfeld or somebody from
`Parrot sent them to you?
` A Yes, correct.
` Q And do you remember what the patents were?
` A Yes.
` Q They were the two Lee patents?
` A That is correct.
` Q So patent lawyers tend to refer to patents
`by the last three digits.
` A Right.
` Q So one is '071 and one is '748.
` A Exactly.
` Q We're talking about the same patents?
`
`3 (Pages 9 to 12)
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` A Exactly.
` Q Okay. And what did you do when you
`reviewed the patents?
` A I looked them over to determine if it was
`within my area of expertise.
` Q How long did that take?
` A Maybe two hours.
` Q Okay. And what did you determine?
` A That it was within my realm of expertise.
` Q Meaning that the '071 and '748 patents are
`related to controlling dynamic systems?
` A That is correct.
` Q Are they also related to controlling
`dynamic systems, and specifically how they relate to
`flying things, such as airplanes and drones?
` A I would say that they are.
` Q So did you report back that it was within
`the realm of your expertise?
` A That is correct.
` Q Who did you report that to?
` A I believe it was probably James again.
` Q Okay. Have all your interactions in this
`matter been with Mr. Hopenfeld, or have you interacted
`with other folks of the firm Parrot or on Parrot's
`behalf?
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`period? Over the next month I have 40 hours? Over
`the next 6 months I have 40 hours?
` A What I remember it to be was roughly over
`the next two or three months.
` Q And did you spend those 40 hours?
` A I believe that I did.
` Q And did you get paid for the 40 hours?
` A I did.
` Q And what did you spend the 40 hours doing?
` A I spent the 40 hours creating the
`declaration.
` Q Okay. You actually have two declarations,
`right?
` A Right.
` Q And there's some overlaps? I'm not
`imagining it was 20 hours for one declaration and
`20 hours for the other?
` A That is correct.
` Q What else did you do other than creating
`the declarations?
` A Well, everything related to creating the
`declarations, so perhaps, you're asking what did
`creating the declarations involve?
` Q Sure.
` A Okay. Creating the declarations involved
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` A The only folks I have interacted with are
`James, Tammy Terry, also a lawyer at the firm, and
`some administrative folks for travel-related things.
` Q Okay. What about any of the technical
`folks at Parrot?
` A No.
` Q You have never interacted with any of them?
` A No.
` Q What about the business folks at Parrot,
`have you ever interacted with any of those?
` A No.
` Q So after you reported back to Mr. Hopenfeld
`that the '071 and '748 patents were within the realm
`of your expertise, what happened next?
` A I then told them that I was very busy and
`that I would only be able to do it if certain
`conditions were met, like, an estimate of the amount
`of time it would take and the timeframe in which all
`of this would take place.
` Q Okay. Do you recall what you told them in
`terms of estimated amount of time it would take, how
`much you had available?
` A Yeah. I think I had said something along
`the lines of about 40 hours.
` Q And was that within a particular time
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`going over the two patents very carefully,
`understanding exactly what they said to the best of my
`knowledge and to review prior art, and that would be
`the bulk of it. That's what I used to create the
`declaration.
` Q How long do you think you spent going over
`the two patents very carefully?
` A Probably if I were to estimate, four to
`eight hours each.
` Q And how long do you think you spent
`reviewing prior art?
` A Probably maybe 10 to 20 hours.
` Q Total or each?
` A Total.
` Q And then did also you spend time actually
`putting fingers to keyboard or pen to paper?
` A And creating the declaration.
` Q That's all the part of the -- or was that
`an additional effort?
` A That was an additional effort.
` Q Okay. How long do you think you spent
`putting the declaration together, actually drafting
`it?
` A Creating the declaration took I would say
`between 10 and 20 hours, and there's overlap amongst
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`4 (Pages 13 to 16)
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`all those things of course.
` Q Of course. And did you draft the
`declaration yourself?
` A I did not do the typing.
` Q Okay. Who did the typing?
` A Tammy Terry.
` Q Was she with you doing it?
` A Yes.
` Q In Zurich?
` A In Zurich yes.
` Q Is she a better typist than you are?
` A Yeah.
` Q Do you recall how long she was with you in
`Zurich?
` A Yes. 20 hours.
` Q And was all of that spent doing the typing
`for the declarations?
` A Was the 20 hours spent doing the typing?
` Q Yes.
` A Amongst other things.
` Q Okay. What other things?
` A We also created the claim charts.
` Q Anything else?
` A Not to my recollection.
` Q So you and Ms. Terry together -- or at
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` A Sure.
` Q How much time did you spend identifying
`prior art that you would review?
` A I understand your question now. Most of
`the prior art was given to me.
` Q By whom?
` A By James.
` Q Mr. Hopenfeld?
` A Correct.
` Q And when did he give you the prior art?
` A I don't remember.
` Q Was it before Ms. --
` A Yes.
` Q -- Terry came to Zurich?
` A Clearly, yes.
` Q Did you have an opportunity to review the
`prior art before Ms. Terry came to Zurich?
` A Yes.
` Q Did you have any issues with any of the
`prior art that Parrot's lawyers provided to you?
` A What do you mean by "issues"?
` Q I don't think this is relevant. Isn't this
`the same as something else? Do I really need to look
`at all of this? I have a better idea. Any of that?
` A No, not to my recollection.
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`least she was doing the manual --
` A Right.
` Q -- effort of typing. You were giving her
`the input I presume?
` A Yeah. We were discussing the input,
`correct.
` Q And I'm assuming she was giving you
`guidance on format and things like that?
` A Well, she was taking care of the format.
` Q So there was typing the declarations and
`the claim charts. Anything else that you and
`Ms. Terry did together?
` A No. I don't recall.
` Q How much time did you spend doing research
`to identify the prior art that you needed for your
`analysis?
` A I would have included that in the 20 hours
`that I did overall.
` Q Okay. So how much time did you spend doing
`the research?
` A I don't remember. I remember the total was
`about 20 hours. I don't remember the -- it's hard for
`me to say --
` Maybe ask your question again.
` Q Okay. I apologize.
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` Q Okay. Were you satisfied that the prior
`art provided to you by Parrot's lawyers was sufficient
`for you to perform your analysis?
` A Yes.
` Q And you didn't feel the need to do any
`independent research?
` A Define independent research.
` Q Research independent of what Parrot's
`lawyers provided to you?
` A I had my textbooks that I made references
`to.
` Q Which textbooks?
` A Textbooks in my office.
` Q Can you recall any of those?
` A I have many textbooks. I don't recall the
`specific one.
` Q If my recollection is correct, you included
`in your declarations a list of references reviewed or
`something like that. Did you include the textbooks in
`that list, do you recall?
` A I don't recall. I can certainly have a
`look at the declarations.
` Q All right. But if you had relied on the
`textbooks, you would have included them so that we
`would know what you looked at?
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`5 (Pages 17 to 20)
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` A Right.
` Q Anything else that you reviewed independent
`of what Parrot's lawyers provided to you prior
`art-wise?
` A Not to my recollection.
` Q When Parrot's lawyers provided you with the
`prior art, did they give you any direction or any
`sense of their view of the prior art?
` A I'm not sure I understand what you're
`asking me.
` Q Well, let me try again.
` A Yeah.
` Q I can imagine two scenarios. One is,
`Dr. D'Andrea, here is a stack of prior art references
`that we think are pertinent. Please take a look at
`them and let us know what you think. Or, Raff, here's
`the analysis we did. If you look at this reference,
`you'll see that it's got these things. If you look at
`this reference, it's got the missing stuff.
` Do you understand the distinction I'm
`drawing?
` A I see what you're saying, yeah. I would
`say it was more of the former.
` Q And so you independently reviewed the prior
`art provided by Parrot's lawyers and came up with your
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`incorporated into the declarations?
` A No. Their opinions were made known to me
`so that I could have all the information available so
`that the declaration could be created.
` Q And then did that ultimately make it into
`the declaration?
` A I don't --
` MR. HOPENFELD: Objection. Vague and
` ambiguous. You can answer the question.
` Q You can answer. Do you want to hear it
`again?
` A Yes, please.
` (Last question read back.)
` A All I can say is that opinions were made
`known to me, and I took their opinions and parsed them
`with my knowledge, and that is how the declaration was
`created. Whether their opinions -- whether what they
`said made it into the declaration or not, I can't
`actually recall because ultimately the declaration was
`created by me synthesizing all the information that I
`had available to me.
` Q If you had to estimate, how much of the
`declarations do you think are Dr. D'Andrea's analysis
`and how much of it do you think is input you received
`from Parrot's lawyers?
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`analysis?
` A That is correct.
` Q And then did you provide your analysis to
`Parrot's lawyers as a preliminary matter, or did you
`just go straight to preparing the declarations?
` A I don't recall the exact sequence, but I'm
`trying to infer what -- what I probably would have
`done is probably would have told them my initial
`reaction to my findings.
` Q To the prior art --
` A That is correct.
` Q -- that they gave you?
` A Yes.
` Q But you don't recall doing that?
` A No.
` Q All right. So Parrot's lawyers were
`content to have you prepare your analysis based on the
`prior art they gave you without walking you through
`what they thought of the prior art; is that right?
` A Without walking me through what they
`thought of the prior art? I think in the process of
`us when we were creating the declaration, I think
`that -- I'm sure that their opinions would have come
`out at that time.
` Q Okay. And then their opinions were
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` A That's very difficult for me to tell you
`that.
` Q Is it 50/50? Is it 75/25? Is it --
` A It is difficult for me to tell you that.
` Q You can't do that?
` A No. I would feel uncomfortable making up a
`number.
` Q Okay. So it's as unlikely to be 25 percent
`yours, 75 Parrot's lawyers as it would be 25 percent
`Parrot's lawyer's, 75 percent yours?
` MR. HOPENFELD: I'm going to object to this
` line of questioning as also being vague and
` ambiguous and also lacking foundation, but you
` can answer to the best of your ability.
` A What I can say is that what is in the
`declaration is my analysis, and in order to create my
`analysis, I used various input, including the comments
`and thoughts of James and Tammy when they were there,
`and yeah. That's what I can say.
` Q Well, if I understand you correctly, you
`used the prior art provided by Parrot's lawyers,
`right?
` A That is correct.
` Q And you used the analysis and thoughts
`provided by Parrot's lawyers?
`
`6 (Pages 21 to 24)
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` A I used the analysis --
` MR. HOPENFELD: Objection. Lacks
` foundation.
` A Your second question was I used the
`analysis and thoughts. I listened to what they had to
`say just as I would listen to anybody that would say
`anything that was relevant to the matter at hand.
` Q Okay. And that was all ultimately
`incorporated in your declarations?
` MR. HOPENFELD: Objection. Vague and
` ambiguous.
` A So I will repeat what I said earlier. When
`I created my declaration, I took all the information
`that I had available to me that I synthesized through
`various means.
` Q And incorporated it into the declarations?
` A I created the declaration using information
`that I synthesized by various means.
` Q And the various means includes the prior
`art provided by Parrot's lawyers?
` A Correct.
` Q And the thoughts and analysis shared with
`you by Parrot's lawyers?
` A And comments provided to me by the folks at
`Parrot's lawyers.
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` Q No. I was asking you what your
`understanding was based on?
` A I see what you're saying. What my
`understanding was based on, it was based on what the
`lawyers for Parrot explained to me.
` Q Okay. Did you conduct any independent
`research or perform any due diligence regarding the
`meaning of the term "anticipation"?
` A I did.
` Q Okay. What did you do?
` A I looked it up on Google.
` Q Google?
` A Yeah.
` Q And do you remember which --
` A No.
` Q -- links you --
` A No.
` Q -- looked on?
` A No.
` Q So it may have been a Wikipedia sort of
`reference?
` A It may have been.
` Q All right. So what is your understanding
`of the term "anticipation"?
` A My understanding of anticipation, what I
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` Q And comments provided to you by Parrot's
`lawyers?
` A Yeah. For example, as you can see in the
`declaration, there are various sections about the
`legal aspects of providing a declaration. I was not
`aware of them, so, clearly, I had to rely on them to
`explain to me those things.
` Q Okay. Now, before you were retained by
`Parrot, did you have an understanding of the meaning
`of the term "anticipation"?
` A Before?
` Q Yes.
` A No.
` Q Okay. Did you have an understanding of the
`meaning of the term "anticipation" on April 30, 2014?
` A On April 30, 2014, I can't remember.
`What's so special about that date?
` Q That was the date of your signature on the
`declaration.
` A Then I would have.
` Q Okay. I apologize for that.
` What was your understanding based on?
` A The question was what was my -- what is my
`understanding of anticipation, is that what you're
`asking me?
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`recall -- and I could look at my declaration to make
`sure. It has been a while -- is that when it's a sole
`other patent that can -- that teaches art in a claim,
`when it's a single patent.
` Q Okay. I'm sorry. Are you done?
` A I believe so. If you want an exact answer,
`I could look at my declaration and I could read that
`back to you.
` Q Okay. If your understanding is incorrect,
`that could call into question the accuracy of your
`opinions, right?
` MR. HOPENFELD: Objection. Lacks
` foundation. You can answer to the best of your
` ability.
` A Repeat your question, please.
` Q She'll read it back.
` (Last question read back.)
` A I don't know if it would call into
`question. I cannot make that conclusion.
` Q Was it important to your opinions for you
`to have a correct understanding of what anticipation
`is in the patent context?
` A I would assume that it would be, yes.
` Q So if your understanding is incorrect, you
`don't think that it would be a concern?
`
`7 (Pages 25 to 28)
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` A I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a
`concern. I'm not -- you asked a slightly different
`question. You said would it call into question. I
`don't know if it would call into question.
` Q I actually asked if it could call into
`question.
` A Right.
` Q We can agree that it could call into
`question the accuracy of your opinions, right?
` A No. I don't -- I don't follow that logical
`conclusion as you are doing.
` Q Okay. One of your opinions is that there's
`certain prior art that anticipates certain claims
`of --
` A That is correct.
` Q Of the patents, right?
` A Correct.
` Q And you have an understanding of what
`anticipation means based on what you were told by
`Parrot's lawyers?
` A At the time that I created the declaration,
`I had an understanding of everything that is in that
`declaration. It has been a while, and if I don't have
`the exact legal term remembered, you must excuse me
`for that.
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` A That is correct.
` Q Is that fair?
` A That is fair.
` Q All right. So what I'm really trying to
`get at is your understanding independent of how it was
`written by Parrot's lawyers?
` A So as I mentioned to you earlier, the
`Parrot lawyers explained to me the terms, and I'm a
`curious person. I looked things up independently in
`Google to make sure that I really understood what --
`basically, getting a second, third, fourth source of
`information, and when I was comfortable with that, I
`proceeded.
` Q Were there any sort of legal terms -- and
`I'm just using that generically. Any sort of legal
`terms that you went back to Parrot's lawyers and said
`I'm really not clear. I looked something up on Google
`and i