·1· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR 2015-00698
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent 8,092,345
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`·5· ·UNDER ARMOUR, INC.
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`·6· · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`·7· ·vs.
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`·8· ·ADIDAS AG,
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`·9· · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`10· ·__________________________________/
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`11
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`12· · · · · · ·The oral deposition of JOSEPH PARADISO,
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`13· ·PH.D., was held on Tuesday, November 10, 2015,
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`14· ·commencing at 9:13 a.m., at the law offices of
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`15· ·Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP, 607 Fourteenth
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`16· ·Street, Northwest, Suite 900, Washington, D.C.,
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`17· ·before Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR, Notary Public
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`25· ·REPORTED BY:· Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR
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`Patent Owner adidas AG
`Exhibit 2004 - Page 1 of 27
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
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`Page 2
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`·2· · · · ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER AND THE WITNESS:
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`·3· · · · W. SUTTON ANSLEY, ESQUIRE
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`·4· · · · · ·Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
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`·5· · · · · ·1300 Eye Street, Northwest
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`·6· · · · · ·Suite 900
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`·7· · · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20005-3314
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`·8
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`·9· · · · ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`10· · · · MATIAS FERRARIO, ESQUIRE
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`11· · · · · ·Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP
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`12· · · · · ·1001 West Fourth Street
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`13· · · · · ·Winston-Salem, North Carolina· 27101
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`14· · · · · ·(336) 607-7309
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`15· · · · · · · ·-· and -
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`16· · · · JONATHAN D. OLINGER, ESQUIRE
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`17· · · · · ·Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP
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`18· · · · · ·1100 Peachtree Street, Northeast
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`19· · · · · ·Suite 2800
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`20· · · · · ·Atlanta, Georgia· 30309
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`21· · · · · ·(404) 815-6381
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX
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`·2· · · · · ·Deposition of JOSEPH PARADISO, PH.D.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · November 10, 2015
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`Page 3
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`·5· ·Examination By:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
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`·6· ·Mr. Olinger· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 4
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`·7· ·Mr. Ansley· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 39
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`·8
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`·9· ·Exhibit No.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Presented
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`10· ·Exhibit 1003· Declaration of
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`11· · · · · · · · ·Joseph A. Paradiso, Ph.D.· · · · · · 6
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`12· ·Exhibit 1004· U.S. Patent 6,513,532· · · · · · · ·27
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`13· ·Exhibit 1005· U.S. Patent 6,321,158· · · · · · · ·34
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`·1· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
`·2· ·Whereupon,
`·3· · · · · · · · ·JOSEPH PARADISO, PH.D.,
`·4· ·the Witness, called for examination, having been
`·5· ·first duly sworn according to law, was examined and
`·6· ·testified as follows:
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`·8· ·BY MR. OLINGER:
`·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So good morning, Dr. Paradiso.
`10· · · · A.· ·Good morning.
`11· · · · Q.· ·How are you today?
`12· · · · A.· ·I'm not bad.· How are you?
`13· · · · Q.· ·Good.· Thank you.
`14· · · · · · ·Can you go on and state and spell your
`15· ·name for the record, please.
`16· · · · A.· ·Sure, P-a-r-a-d-i-s-o.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Excellent.
`18· · · · · · ·And have you ever been deposed before?
`19· · · · A.· ·No.
`20· · · · Q.· ·You've not.· Have you ever served as an
`21· ·expert witness before?
`22· · · · A.· ·I've written declarations.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How many times?
`24· · · · A.· ·It's in my CV or the documents I sent you.
`25· · · · · · ·On the order of probably four times, five
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`Page 5
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`·1· ·times.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you never testified about any
`·3· ·of the statements written in those declarations?
`·4· · · · A.· ·No, never.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I'm going to give you a few
`·6· ·instructions about the deposition today, just so
`·7· ·that we can all be on the same page.
`·8· · · · · · ·And since this is your first time, I'll go
`·9· ·through them in a bit more detail --
`10· · · · A.· ·Thank you.
`11· · · · Q.· ·-- than I otherwise would.
`12· · · · · · ·The basic setup is that I will ask you a
`13· ·question and you must provide an answer, unless
`14· ·instructed by your attorney not to do so.
`15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`16· · · · Q.· ·I will assume you understand my questions,
`17· ·unless you ask for clarification.
`18· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`19· · · · Q.· ·So if there is something about my question
`20· ·that you don't understand, please let me know.
`21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· ·So the court reporter can provide an
`23· ·accurate transcript, please answer audibly.· Don't
`24· ·shake or nod your head.
`25· · · · A.· ·Sure.
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`Patent Owner adidas AG
`Exhibit 2004 - Page 2 of 27
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`Page 6
`·1· · · · Q.· ·Also, please let me finish my questions
`·2· ·before you answer.
`·3· · · · · · ·And I will also give you the same courtesy
`·4· ·of allowing you to finish your answer before I ask
`·5· ·the next question.
`·6· · · · · · ·That way the court reporter can get a
`·7· ·clean transcript.
`·8· · · · A.· ·Thank you.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Does that all sound acceptable to you?
`10· · · · A.· ·That certainly does.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Excellent.
`12· · · · · · ·So we are here this morning to discuss
`13· ·IPR 201500698, which relates to U.S. Patent
`14· ·8,092,345.
`15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`16· · · · Q.· ·And you have offered an opinion on the
`17· ·validity of the '345 patent.· Correct?
`18· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have.
`19· · · · · · · · · MR. OLINGER:· Okay.· And we can go
`20· ·and I'll hand you your declaration, which has
`21· ·previously been marked as UA 1003.
`22· · · · · · · · · Since it's already marked, we're not
`23· ·going to give it a new exhibit number for this
`24· ·matter.
`25· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, UA Exhibit 1003 was presented
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`Page 8
`·1· · · · · · ·A lot of the concentration of my work has
`·2· ·been around wearable wireless sensing and sensor
`·3· ·networks.
`·4· · · · · · ·We've done lots of systems for dancers,
`·5· ·for athletes, lots of wearable user interfaces.
`·6· · · · · · ·And our work now is concentrating about
`·7· ·how people connect to the electronic nervous system
`·8· ·that surrounds them, much of which use is also
`·9· ·wearable electronics.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when you say "wearable wireless
`11· ·sensing," what do you mean by "sensing"?
`12· · · · A.· ·"Sensing" means you transduce some
`13· ·physical parameter.
`14· · · · · · ·So it could be an accelerometer, for
`15· ·example, that measures motion of the human in
`16· ·different ways.
`17· · · · · · ·It could be a microphone to either
`18· ·digitized audio or plug-audio features.
`19· · · · · · ·It could be a photo sensor to look at
`20· ·light -- light qualities, light characteristics.
`21· · · · · · ·It could be a proximity sensor to measure
`22· ·how close something is.
`23· · · · · · ·Or it could be a biometric sensor to
`24· ·measure, you know, heart rate, GSR, things of that
`25· ·sort.
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`Page 7
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`·1· ·to the witness.)
`·2· · · · Q.· ·And this is the report -- or the
`·3· ·declaration you have submitted in which you opine on
`·4· ·the validity of the '345 patent.· Correct?
`·5· · · · · · · · · MR. OLINGER:· Did you get his answer?
`·6· · · · · · · · · COURT REPORTER:· He said, "Hmmpf."
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Just as a reminder, please make
`·8· ·sure you give an audible response.
`·9· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· It was just a grunt.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Understood.
`11· · · · A.· ·I'll take a quick look.
`12· · · · Q.· ·Understood.
`13· · · · A.· ·You actually transcribed that.
`14· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`15· · · · A.· ·Yeah, it appears to be.
`16· · · · Q.· ·Excellent.· What is your place of current
`17· ·employment?
`18· · · · A.· ·I'm at the MIT Media Lab.
`19· · · · Q.· ·How long have you been employed at MIT
`20· ·Media Lab?
`21· · · · A.· ·I have been there since 1994.· And I was a
`22· ·visitor in 1993.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what does your work at the
`24· ·media lab involve?
`25· · · · A.· ·It's involved many things.
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`Page 9
`·1· · · · · · ·It could be a camera to pull features out
`·2· ·from images.
`·3· · · · · · ·There are many, many kinds of sensors --
`·4· ·many kinds that we've used.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you've stated that your work at
`·6· ·the media lab is primarily focused on this wearable
`·7· ·wireless sensing technology?
`·8· · · · A.· ·That's the enabling technology that we
`·9· ·use, one of the major enabling -- we use many
`10· ·technologies, but my work is known for that --
`11· · · · · · · · · COURT REPORTER:· Pardon me, sir.· But
`12· ·you have to slow down so I understand what you're
`13· ·saying.
`14· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sorry.· Sometimes I
`15· ·don't realize how fast I speak.
`16· · · · A.· ·It's one of the enabling technologies that
`17· ·we use to push into a myriad of different
`18· ·applications, from sports monitoring....
`19· · · · · · ·We did a project with the Boston Red Sox,
`20· ·actually -- it went on for many years -- to monitor
`21· ·athletic performance and extract biometric
`22· ·parameters from pitchers and batters; dancers with
`23· ·sensors on their shoes to control music; wearable
`24· ·gait analysis.
`25· · · · · · ·We did the first real wireless sensor
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`Patent Owner adidas AG
`Exhibit 2004 - Page 3 of 27
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`·1· ·node, as far as I know, for wearable gait analysis.
`·2· · · · · · ·One of them worked for IEEE MV for that.
`·3· · · · · · ·We do a lot of work now with lighting
`·4· ·control, building systems, wearables, to regulate
`·5· ·temperature.· So we can look at the sensor comfort.
`·6· · · · · · ·And this is all, you know, sensing -- on
`·7· ·the body, sensing the infrastructure -- both.
`·8· · · · · · ·And then you combine that in different
`·9· ·ways through processing.· And you actuate or you
`10· ·analyze the data.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with the global
`12· ·positioning system?
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.
`14· · · · Q.· ·And do you know when that was first
`15· ·invented?
`16· · · · A.· ·That's a good question.
`17· · · · · · ·It was invented, oh, decades ago --
`18· ·probably '80s or '70s -- I don't know exactly
`19· ·when -- and then implemented over the next years.
`20· · · · Q.· ·And do you know who invented the GPS
`21· ·system?
`22· · · · A.· ·I couldn't tell you.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you describe to me how GPS
`24· ·works?
`25· · · · A.· ·The GPS satellites emit a radio signal.
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`·1· ·And they know their time.· They all have atomic
`·2· ·clocks.
`·3· · · · · · ·And you look at the differential -- time
`·4· ·of arrival of the sequencing differential phase
`·5· ·coming in at the receiver.
`·6· · · · · · ·And then knowing the positions of the
`·7· ·satellites, you can work out where you are.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Prior to February 2001, had you developed
`·9· ·or worked on any systems that use GPS technologies?
`10· · · · A.· ·When I was at Draper Lab --
`11· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; relevance.
`12· · · · · · · · · Go ahead.
`13· · · · A.· ·When I was at Draper Lab, I worked on the
`14· ·intelligence -- sonobuoy, which is a system where we
`15· ·had GPS on -- imaging sonobuoy that would be
`16· ·floating out in the ocean to image things that would
`17· ·go by it.· So GPS is how we tracked it.
`18· · · · · · ·I was working in a group then.· It was
`19· ·actually very well known for GPS, really pushing the
`20· ·fringe of GPS.· It was the Draper's sensors group.
`21· · · · · · ·When I was at the media lab, a lot of our
`22· ·sponsors were using GPS.· Trimble, for example,
`23· ·sponsored it -- that many of us worked with.
`24· · · · · · ·So we were quite aware of the capabilities
`25· ·of GPS and how it was -- increasingly, it would be
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`·1· ·embedded into different kinds of applications.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·So you said that you did some work at the
`·3· ·Draper Lab?
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·When did you work at the Draper Lab?
`·6· · · · · · ·And can you tell me what the Draper Lab
`·7· ·is?
`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; form.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me what the Draper Lab is?
`10· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Draper Lab is a spinoff of MIT.· It
`11· ·used to be the MIT's Instrumentation Lab.
`12· · · · · · ·And they're probably the laboratory most
`13· ·famous in the world for inertial guidance systems.
`14· · · · · · ·It was started by Dr. Draper himself --
`15· ·legend and inertia guy.· And he's the guy who flew
`16· ·blindfolded from -- you know, it was Boston to L.A.
`17· ·-- you know, showing that you really can use
`18· ·navigation systems, inertial navigation systems.
`19· · · · · · ·And we developed, essentially, the
`20· ·inertial navigation system for every major U.S.
`21· ·strategic missile -- not local strategic missile --
`22· ·for the West.
`23· · · · · · ·And the most famous part of Draper
`24· ·probably is Apollo.· We did the guidance for Apollo.
`25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when you say "we," is that you
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`·1· ·directly or is that the work of the Draper Lab?
`·2· · · · A.· ·I did not do the guidance for Apollo.· I'm
`·3· ·not old enough -- maybe I touch the edge.
`·4· · · · · · ·I did a lot of work, though, on spacecraft
`·5· ·control for the shuttle and for space station.
`·6· · · · · · ·I was their momentum management expert for
`·7· ·a while, looking at controlling altitude in
`·8· ·spacecraft.
`·9· · · · · · ·And then I went to work with the sensors
`10· ·group.· We did a lot of sonar and things of that
`11· ·sort.
`12· · · · Q.· ·And when did you work for the Draper Lab?
`13· · · · A.· ·I was there as a student.· That's where I
`14· ·learned a lot of programming, actually.
`15· · · · · · ·I went there as a systems programmer in
`16· ·1974.· And then I finished -- when I went to grad
`17· ·school at MIT -- in '77.
`18· · · · · · ·They brought me back as a consultant in
`19· ·'78 for a lot of realtime software I developed from
`20· ·the MX guiding system for testing it.
`21· · · · · · ·And then I went back to join the NASA
`22· ·group in -- oh, that was 1983, I believe.· And I
`23· ·stayed until I went to the media lab in '94.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And through your work with the
`25· ·Draper Lab, did you personally work on any GPS
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`Patent Owner adidas AG
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`·1· ·technologies?
`·2· · · · A.· ·It depends on what you mean by "GPS
`·3· ·technologies."
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you use or implement any GPS
`·5· ·receivers?
`·6· · · · A.· ·I did not directly implement GPS
`·7· ·receivers.
`·8· · · · · · ·I worked on devices that did use them.· So
`·9· ·I was aware of their capability.
`10· · · · · · ·But I did not design the GPS receiver or
`11· ·integrate the GPS receiver at that time.
`12· · · · Q.· ·And did you do so while you were employed
`13· ·with the MIT Media Lab?
`14· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; relevance.
`15· · · · A.· ·At the MIT Media Lab, we have been around
`16· ·GPS a lot with -- in the early days, with Trimble,
`17· ·as I mentioned, and companies that were there.
`18· · · · · · ·I've worked a lot with phone companies too
`19· ·that have looked in treating situation awareness --
`20· ·or situational awareness, GPS locational
`21· ·awareness -- into their devices.
`22· · · · · · ·I've worked a lot with Nokia, consulted
`23· ·with them, spent time at their labs.· And they were
`24· ·very involved with the capabilities of GPS in their
`25· ·devices.
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`·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·In this paragraph you state that it is
`·3· ·your opinion a person of ordinary skill in the art
`·4· ·would have through training or experience an
`·5· ·understanding of basic analog and digital circuits,
`·6· ·microcontrollers, signaling, sensing, and embedded
`·7· ·software.
`·8· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by "embedded software"?
`10· · · · A.· ·"Embedded software" is software that runs
`11· ·typically on a microcontroller or a computer away
`12· ·from something like a mainframe or a personal
`13· ·computer or a server, any of these things.
`14· · · · · · ·It runs physically in a device.
`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you also state in paragraph 11
`16· ·that a person would have at least a bachelor's
`17· ·degree in electrical engineering, computer
`18· ·engineering, or computer science, and three or more
`19· ·years of practical experience with sensing,
`20· ·signaling, and embedded and/or mobile systems or the
`21· ·equivalent.· Correct?
`22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Now, in paragraph 12 you say:· A person of
`24· ·ordinary skill would have a bachelor's degree in
`25· ·electrical engineering or computer science and at
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`·1· · · · · · ·Also, Microsoft -- I've served on advisory
`·2· ·boards for mobility for them.· And part of what we
`·3· ·discussed was the applications you could build on
`·4· ·top of GPS in these systems.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever directly worked on a device
`·6· ·that integrated a GPS receiver?
`·7· · · · A.· ·In my lab now, there is a device that we
`·8· ·have.
`·9· · · · · · ·It's the beginning of what we call
`10· ·"wearable sensory prosthetic."
`11· · · · Q.· ·Let me rephrase my question.
`12· · · · · · ·Prior to 2001 had you ever worked on a
`13· ·device that directly implemented a GPS receiver?
`14· · · · A.· ·Not myself.
`15· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; relevance.
`16· · · · Q.· ·So if you wouldn't mind turning to pages 5
`17· ·and 6 of your report.
`18· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`19· · · · Q.· ·And across paragraphs 10, 11, and 12 of
`20· ·your report, you provide opinions about the person
`21· ·of ordinary skill of a relevant field, of a relevant
`22· ·time frame.· Correct?
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`24· · · · Q.· ·So first I'd like to turn you to paragraph
`25· ·11.
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`·1· ·least two years' industry experience or the
`·2· ·equivalent.
`·3· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Why, from paragraph 11 to 12, have you
`·5· ·dropped the experience in -- or the degree in
`·6· ·computer engineering here?
`·7· · · · A.· ·Let me read.
`·8· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`·9· · · · A.· ·Are you commenting on the word "at least"
`10· ·on paragraph 11, because I do mention the degree.
`11· · · · Q.· ·But I'm --
`12· · · · A.· ·So it is included by "at least."
`13· · · · · · ·I don't think I've dropped the degree --
`14· ·have I?
`15· · · · Q.· ·Well, in paragraph 11 you say:· A person
`16· ·of ordinary skill would have at least a bachelor's
`17· ·degree in electrical engineering, computer
`18· ·engineering, or computer science.
`19· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`20· · · · Q.· ·Yet in paragraph 12, you now say that a
`21· ·person would have a bachelor's degree in electrical
`22· ·engineering or computer science, but not computer
`23· ·engineering.
`24· · · · · · ·I'm not sure I understand the discrepancy
`25· ·between those two paragraphs.
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`Patent Owner adidas AG
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`·1· · · · A.· ·There was a typo -- where the first
`·2· ·sentence, actually, in paragraph 12 is not supposed
`·3· ·to be there.
`·4· · · · · · ·In principle, computer engineering and
`·5· ·computer science are fairly similar, especially if
`·6· ·you include electrical engineering.
`·7· · · · · · ·I'd say the overlap of electrical
`·8· ·engineering and computer science is computer
`·9· ·engineering.
`10· · · · · · ·I just gave the distinguished lecture at
`11· ·University of Michigan's computer engineering
`12· ·department Friday.· So I'm aware of this.
`13· · · · Q.· ·So just to make sure that the record's
`14· ·clear, you're stating that the first full sentence
`15· ·of paragraph 12 is a typo?
`16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`17· · · · Q.· ·And that's not supposed to be included
`18· ·with your report?
`19· · · · A.· ·I think it's clear if that's struck.
`20· ·That's true.
`21· · · · Q.· ·What's clear if it's struck?
`22· · · · A.· ·This apparent -- what you call a
`23· ·contradiction.
`24· · · · · · ·I don't think it is exactly a
`25· ·contradiction.· But it's confusing, I would agree.
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`·1· · · · · · ·So the first sentence is a typo.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So it's necessary to -- for
`·3· ·instance, that first sentence also includes that a
`·4· ·person would have at least two years' industry
`·5· ·experience --
`·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·-- whereas in paragraph 11 you say --
`·8· · · · A.· ·Three more years.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·-- three years?
`10· · · · A.· ·Yeah, they're consistent, because it says
`11· ·"at least."
`12· · · · · · ·But, yeah, three more years -- was always
`13· ·better.
`14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In providing the opinions in this
`15· ·declaration, did you use the person of ordinary
`16· ·skill as defined in paragraph 11 or the person of
`17· ·ordinary skill as defined in paragraph 12?
`18· · · · A.· ·Paragraph 11.
`19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
`20· · · · · · ·Also in paragraph 12, you state that you
`21· ·have a good understanding of the capabilities of a
`22· ·person of ordinary skill in a relevant field.
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`24· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that statement, that
`25· ·you have a good understanding?
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`·1· · · · A.· ·Oh, I think the following statement shows
`·2· ·that at the MIT Media Lab I've had -- and my CV --
`·3· ·you've got some 30, 40, 50 students.
`·4· · · · · · ·These students are hired by companies that
`·5· ·do these kinds of things.· So I know the kind of
`·6· ·people that work there.
`·7· · · · · · ·Plus, the Media Lab is managed and
`·8· ·supported by industrial sponsors.
`·9· · · · · · ·So the companies I've mentioned, including
`10· ·many others to play in these spaces, are at the lab.
`11· ·I have frequent contact with them, and I know their
`12· ·employees.
`13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In paragraph 10, the second full
`14· ·sentence reads:· I have been informed the level of
`15· ·skill in the art is evidenced by the prior art.
`16· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Did you only look to the prior art to
`18· ·determine the level of ordinary skill with respect
`19· ·to the '345 patent?
`20· · · · A.· ·Well, let me think of what you mean there
`21· ·for a minute....
`22· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`23· · · · A.· ·I looked at the level of skill that people
`24· ·would have to realize what's physically in that
`25· ·patent to try to make it, and also all the prior art
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`·1· ·that we talked about.
`·2· · · · · · ·I am heavily connected with the wearable
`·3· ·community as well.· So, you know, I know people that
`·4· ·work in fields that physically realize these things.
`·5· · · · · · ·So the prior art that I've cited, the
`·6· ·stuff I know about -- people do this kind of work,
`·7· ·that all informs my opinion -- and the patent
`·8· ·itself, of course.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·And by "the patent," you mean the '345
`10· ·patent?
`11· · · · A.· ·Yeah, '345.· Yes.
`12· · · · Q.· ·And when you say you know about people
`13· ·that do this kind of work and that informs your
`14· ·opinion, what do you mean by that?
`15· · · · A.· ·I know people that work at companies that
`16· ·make things like this, that were sponsors of the
`17· ·media lab.
`18· · · · · · ·The wearable computing community was very
`19· ·much about things like this.
`20· · · · · · ·Electronic journaling of the kind that the
`21· ·'345 patent talks about is very similar to work that
`22· ·happened in Chris Mann's group, for example, at the
`23· ·media lab -- Rosalind Picard's group at the media
`24· ·lab, Sandy Pentland's group at the media lab.
`25· · · · · · ·I knew the people that were developing
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`·1· ·this technology in the late '90s.
`·2· · · · · · ·You know, I'm not bringing up particular
`·3· ·examples.
`·4· · · · · · ·There are other examples here from Mault
`·5· ·and the cited art that use journaling directly.
`·6· · · · · · ·But if you want to paint a picture of the
`·7· ·time, I was very much a part of the community and
`·8· ·knew people that were developing these technologies.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Were you developing any of these
`10· ·technologies at the time -- specified?
`11· · · · A.· ·I was certainly -- wearable sensing, my
`12· ·group, didn't do much with journaling.· But
`13· ·distributed cameras, input devices -- we were doing
`14· ·stuff like that.
`15· · · · · · ·My very good friend Steven Mann, for
`16· ·example, was doing things very much in this vein.
`17· · · · Q.· ·And in paragraph 9, you provide an
`18· ·overview of the materials you've considered in this
`19· ·case?
`20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`21· · · · Q.· ·In describing the work that was done by
`22· ·some of your colleagues in the media lab, did you
`23· ·expressly consider that work as a part of forming
`24· ·your opinions in this patent?
`25· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; form.
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`·1· · · · A.· ·Well, Ari T. Adler is a student of mine in
`·2· ·my group.· So in this case, yes, that's true.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Did you --
`·4· · · · A.· ·Go ahead.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry.· Go ahead.
`·6· · · · A.· ·No.· I'm done.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you consider work by any of your other
`·8· ·colleagues as a part of the materials considered in
`·9· ·forming your opinions in this case?
`10· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; form.
`11· · · · A.· ·Not in this disclosure.
`12· · · · · · ·It informs, of course, my knowledge.
`13· · · · · · ·But this disclosure, what we consider is
`14· ·this.
`15· · · · Q.· ·When you say "this disclosure," do you
`16· ·mean the full contents of your declaration?
`17· · · · A.· ·Yes, except where I may otherwise mention
`18· ·things.
`19· · · · · · ·I think in the introduction -- I would
`20· ·have to read....
`21· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`22· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I don't think I say much in the
`23· ·introduction or preamble to this about the other
`24· ·work at the time.
`25· · · · · · ·So in this disclosure, I don't bring it
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`·1· ·up.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·So when you're describing other work at
`·3· ·the time, did you consider other work at the time in
`·4· ·forming your opinions in this declaration?
`·5· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; form.
`·6· · · · A.· ·As an active practitioner in areas that
`·7· ·read heavily on all the Ellis disclosure, but not
`·8· ·'345 by itself.
`·9· · · · · · ·Of course my opinions are informed because
`10· ·I was part of the community that was doing work and
`11· ·developing these things.
`12· · · · · · ·In terms of what we used as our argument,
`13· ·what is here is here.
`14· · · · Q.· ·Did you perform any research regarding the
`15· ·'345 patent that's not -- and uncover any documents
`16· ·that are not listed in the materials considered
`17· ·portion of your declaration?
`18· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; form.
`19· · · · A.· ·Of course.
`20· · · · · · ·I mean, in researching '345, you know,
`21· ·there are things in the declaration, things that I
`22· ·found -- various source -- things that I knew about.
`23· · · · · · ·There are other -- I mean, the Ellis
`24· ·disclosures describe work that we all knew.
`25· · · · · · ·It's no surprise to us.· We were doing
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`·1· ·that.
`·2· · · · Q.· ·So what kind of other research did you
`·3· ·perform?
`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; form.
`·5· · · · A.· ·What do you mean by "research"?
`·6· · · · Q.· ·So I've just asked you if you performed
`·7· ·any additional research in forming your opinions
`·8· ·regarding the '345 patent.· And you said of course.
`·9· · · · · · ·And I just want to try and understand
`10· ·exactly what research you performed.
`11· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· I caution the witness
`12· ·not to reveal any attorney work product.
`13· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`14· · · · A.· ·It's related to work with the attorneys.
`15· · · · · · ·And I don't think I have to answer that
`16· ·particular question.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Well, my question is:· Did you perform
`18· ·research that you considered in rendering your
`19· ·opinion regarding the validity of the '345 patent in
`20· ·this declaration?
`21· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Objection; form, asked
`22· ·and answered.
`23· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.
`24· · · · Q.· ·I think that's the first time I've asked
`25· ·the question.· So I just want to make sure I
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`·1· ·understand your answer.
`·2· · · · A.· ·In the course of coming up with these
`·3· ·opinions before I wrote the document, yeah, I would
`·4· ·look at many things.
`·5· · · · · · ·But this is privileged to discussions with
`·6· ·my attorney -- or our attorney, or the attorney.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·So the only documents that you considered
`·8· ·in rendering your opinion on the '345 patent are
`·9· ·identified in paragraph 9 of your report?
`10· · · · A.· ·For this disclosure, yes.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Are you familiar with U.S. Patent No.
`12· ·5,864,870 to Guck?
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.
`14· · · · Q.· ·Did you consider the disclosures of Guck
`15· ·in rendering your opinion on the '345 patent?
`16· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`17· · · · A.· ·Okay.· I do not -- I wanted to make
`18· ·sure -- and of course, I haven't read the entire
`19· ·thing here to refresh my memory -- but I do not
`20· ·believe I called attention to Guck here.
`21· · · · · · ·So I did not use it.
`22· · · · Q.· ·In your report you provided some opinions
`23· ·regarding the construction of certain claim terms.
`24· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
`25· · · · Q.· ·What is the standard you used in
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`·1· ·identifying those constructions?
`·2· · · · A.· ·I believe it's here, in this section here.
`·3· · · · · · ·And we used their broadest reasonable
`·4· ·interpretation, in general, to a person of ordinary
`·5· ·skill in the art at the time of the invention -- and
`·6· ·plain and ordinary meaning, where possible.
`·7· · · · · · ·And I believe the P Tab was later -- so
`·8· ·it's not in this report -- came back with some
`·9· ·clarification of advertisement.
`10· · · · · · ·But for this report, it's -- unless we
`11· ·otherwise cite it in the report itself, it's the
`12· ·broadest reasonable interpretation, plain and
`13· ·ordinary meaning, a person of typical skill.
`14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I'm going to hand what you's
`15· ·already been marked Exhibit 1004.
`16· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`17· · · · Q.· ·-- in this matter.
`18· · · · · · ·It's U.S. Patent No. 6,513,532 to Mault
`19· ·and referred to in your declaration as Mault.
`20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`21· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, UA Exhibit 1004 was presented
`22· ·to the witness.)
`23· · · · Q.· ·In paragraph 26 of your report --
`24· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.
`25· · · · Q.· ·-- the second sentence there states that:
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`·1· ·For example, the monitoring device may be a PDA that
`·2· ·includes or communicates with a body activity
`·3· ·monitor.
`·4· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·And you cite there to Column 18, line 7 to
`·6· ·14.
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Aside from this column, from Column 18
`·9· ·lines 7 to 19, do you cite to any other portions of
`10· ·Mault that describe a PDA embodiment in which the
`11· ·PDA includes or communicates with a body activity
`12· ·monitor?
`13· · · · A.· ·I would have to go through the report and
`14· ·find them all.
`15· · · · · · ·There are many references to PDA in Mault.
`16· · · · · · ·In terms of where I use and cite it, I'd
`17· ·have to refresh my memory and go through.
`18· · · · Q.· ·I mean, we can go through the paragraphs
`19· ·of your report describing Mault.
`20· · · · · · ·But as you sit here today, do you know if
`21· ·there are any other sections aside from that portion
`22· ·in Column 18 --
`23· · · · A.· ·I don't recall.
`24· · · · Q.· ·-- that refer to a PDA embodiment?
`25· · · · A.· ·I would have to go through and see --
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`·1· ·certainly, Mault embraces a PDA.
`·2· · · · · · ·It's very much here.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
`·4· · · · A.· ·And I'm not sure that's the only place I
`·5· ·said that.
`·6· · · · Q.· ·In looking at paragraph 26 of your report,
`·7· ·do you cite to anything about this PDA embodiment,
`·8· ·other than in Column 18, lines 7 to 14, 14 to 18, or
`·9· ·18 to 19?
`10· · · · A.· ·Let me take a look here.
`11· · · · · · ·So paragraph 26, specifically, you're
`12· ·talking about?
`13· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
`14· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`15· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`16· · · · A.· ·Yes, it does appear in that paragraph.
`17· ·Those are the cites to Mault.
`18· · · · Q.· ·And if we want to review -- you can take
`19· ·your time to review paragraphs 21 to --
`20· · · · A.· ·In my report?
`21· · · · Q.· ·Yes, in your report.
`22· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Paragraphs 21 to 28 I believe is where you
`24· ·describe or provide an overview of Mault.
`25· · · · A.· ·Sure.
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·And I just want to confirm that nowhere
`·2· ·else in those paragraphs do you identify disclosures
`·3· ·of Mault relating to this PDA embodiment.
`·4· · · · A.· ·Okay.· So relating to the PDA,
`·5· ·specifically?
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Correct.
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes -- is it okay if I mark things?
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Go ahead.
`·9· · · · A.· ·It's my first deposition.
`10· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`11· · · · · · · · · MR. ANSLEY:· Can we go off the record
`12· ·for a quick sec?
`13· · · · · · · ·(Discussion off the record.)
`14· · · · A.· ·What's the paragraph I should finish
`15· ·reading at -- can you remind me?
`16· · · · Q.· ·28.
`17· · · · A.· ·Okay.· There are cites to Mault's use of
`18· ·PDA -- or mention of PDA in 26 and, potentially, 27.
`19· · · · Q.· ·And what language are you specifically
`20· ·referring to in paragraph 27?
`21· · · · A.· ·(Reading:)· The term local computer and
`22· ·PDAs as used by Mault include