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`U N I T E D S T A T E S P A T E N T A N D T R A D E M A R K O F F I C E
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`B E F O R E T H E P A T E N T T R I A L A N D A P P E A L B O A R D
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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`J U N I P E R N E T W O R K S , I N C .
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`P e t i t i o n e r ,
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`v .
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`I M P L I C I T , L L C
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`P a t e n t O w n e r .
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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`C a s e N o . I P R 2 0 2 0 - 0 0 5 8 5
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`U . S . P a t e n t 8 , 6 9 4 , 6 8 3
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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`T E L E P H O N I C H E A R I N G
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`B E F O R E T H E P A T E N T T R I A L A N D A P P E A L S B O A R D
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`T h u r s d a y , M a y 2 1 , 2 0 2 0
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`R E P O R T E D B Y : L Y N N E M . L E D A N O I S , C . S . R . 6 8 1 1
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`J o b N o . 4 1 2 0 9 8 2
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` R E M O T E A P P E A R A N C E S
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`P a t e n t T r i a l a n d A p p e a l s B o a r d J u d g e s
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`F o r t h e P e t i t i o n e r :
`
` I R E L L & M A N E L L A L L P
`
` B Y : J O N A T H A N M . L I N D S A Y
`
` B Y : D A V I D M c P H I E
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` A t t o r n e y s a t L a w
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` 8 4 0 N e w p o r t C e n t e r D r i v e
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` S u i t e 4 0 0
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` N e w p o r t B e a c h , C a l i f o r n i a 9 2 6 6 0
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` ( 9 4 9 ) 7 6 0 - 0 9 9 1
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` j l i n d s a y @ i r e l l . c o m
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` d m c p h i e @ i r e l l . c o m
`
`F o r t h e P a t e n t O w n e r :
`
` T H E D A V I S F I R M , P C
`
` B Y : C H R I S T I A N J . H U R T
`
` A t t o r n e y s a t L a w
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` 2 1 3 N o r t h F r e d o n i a S t r e e t
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` S u i t e 2 3 0
`
` L o n g v i e w , T e x a s 7 5 6 0 1
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` ( 9 0 3 ) 2 3 0 - 9 0 9 0
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` c h u r t @ d a v i s f i r m . c o m
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` Thursday, May 21, 2020
`
` 8:02 a.m.
`
`_______________________________________________
`
` PTAB JUDGE: We are here today
`
` regarding IPR 2020-585, 586, 587, 590, 591 08:00
`
` and 592.
`
` The parties are Petitioner Juniper
`
` Networks, Incorporated and Patent Owner
`
` Implicit, LLC.
`
` Judges Gianetti, McShane and Kahn are 08:00
`
` also on the line with me.
`
` Who's representing petitioner today?
`
` MR. LINDSAY: This is Jonathan Lindsay
`
` for petitioner.
`
` MR. McPHIE: And I'm on the call as 08:01
`
` well, David McPhie for petitioner.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: And for patent owner?
`
` MR. HURT: Yes, Your Honor. This is
`
` Christian Hurt from the Davis Firm here on
`
` behalf of Implicit, LLC. 08:01
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Do we have a court
`
` reporter on the line?
`
` THE REPORTER: Good morning. We do.
`
` This is Lynne Ledanois.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Who arranged for the 08:01
`
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` court reporter? 08:01
`
` MR. LINDSAY: That would be
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` petitioner, Your Honor.
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` PTAB JUDGE: Will petitioner file a
`
` transcript of the call as an exhibit? 08:01
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Yes, of course.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Thank you.
`
` So, starting the call today,
`
` petitioner sent an email requesting leave to
`
` file a reply, nowhere in the seven pages, to 08:02
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` patent owner's preliminary response.
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` The subject matter is limited to the
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` rebuttal of patent owner's 325(b) argument.
`
` The email indicated that patent owner
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` opposes petitioner's request. 08:02
`
` Let's start with the petitioner. Is
`
` the summary I just gave of your request
`
` correct?
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Yes, Your Honor, that's
`
` correct. 08:02
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Is the petitioner opposed
`
` to patent owner having a sur-reply that's
`
` the same length as the petitioner's reply?
`
` MR. LINDSAY: We are. We're not
`
` opposed to a sur-reply, but we think it 08:02
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` should be materially shorter. And I can 08:02
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` tell you a reason if you would like.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Yes. We have the record,
`
` just to let you know, so we're familiar with
`
` the record. So maybe that will save you 08:03
`
` some time.
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Okay. One of the
`
` reasons why we think there's cause to file a
`
` reply is the Advanced Bionics' decision
`
` being made precedential. 08:03
`
` And in that case, which is, for the
`
` record, IPR 2019-01469, Paper 6, that was
`
` made --
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Just to assist, yes, we
`
` are familiar with the case and the record, 08:03
`
` so if that's helpful.
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Yes, of course.
`
` So the decision was made precedential
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` more than two months before patent owner
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` filed its preliminary response. 08:03
`
` So they had an opportunity to address
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` it, but chose not to for whatever reason,
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` where, of course, it was made precedential
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` after the petitions were filed.
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` A second reason is that they addressed 08:04
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` the issues in the technical details of the 08:04
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` checkpoint reference in particular, albeit
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` incorrectly, and with far more pages than we
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` have or than we really expected to need to.
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` So we think that the Board has already 08:04
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` heard from the patent owner on the topic to
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` a much greater extent than it has with
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` respect to petitioner and that the relative
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` length of the sur-reply should reflect that.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Thank you, counsel. 08:04
`
` We'll give the patent owner a chance to
`
` respond.
`
` MR. HURT: Yes, Your Honor. On the
`
` initial issue on the opposition, both sides
`
` had the ability to address this question. 08:04
`
` Juniper did the Checkpoint reference
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` that Mr. Lindsay referred to is based on a
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` inter partes re-examination that Juniper
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` itself filed.
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` So this was not a new fact that they 08:05
`
` could not have been aware of at the time of
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` their petition.
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` And on the Advanced Bionics issue, you
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` know, our view is we joined issue with how
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` the petitioner briefed the petition. 08:05
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` My understanding of Advanced Bionics 08:05
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` is it takes the Becton Dickinson factors and
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` rephrased them in a two-part test. But it
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` still addresses the six factors as part of
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` that two-part test. 08:05
`
` So our position is, given that the
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` petitioner could have addressed this, and in
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` fact did address, 325(d), that the Court
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` would be reviewing the same record.
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` I don't believe there's going to be 08:05
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` any evidence in the reply because they are
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` talking about the same record. That's the
`
` reason we oppose the reply.
`
` But if there is a reply to address
`
` these limited issues, such as Advanced 08:06
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` Bionics or other things, we believe that our
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` sur-reply should be of the same length.
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` And that's consistent with some of the
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` Board decisions that I have seen. And we
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` proposed five pages each, so a limited 08:06
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` amount of briefing to address that narrow
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` issue given that both sides will be
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` addressing the case filings.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Okay.
`
` MR. HURT: So that's our position. 08:06
`
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` PTAB JUDGE: That's helpful. 08:06
`
` Thank you to both parties for sharing
`
` some more details regarding the request in
`
` the opposition.
`
` We would like to ask a question. It 08:06
`
` was also mentioned about an update regarding
`
` the parallel litigation.
`
` It seems like the petition mentions,
`
` particularly in the 585 case, the Eastern
`
` District of Texas litigation, has there ever 08:06
`
` been an update to any of the mandatory
`
` notices regarding -- is there now a second
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` litigation?
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Yes, there is an update,
`
` Your Honor. This the petitioner. We 08:07
`
` identified pending litigation in the Eastern
`
` District of Texas with a trial date of July
`
` 6. That's no longer correct.
`
` After the petitions were filed,
`
` Juniper, the petitioner, filed a transfer 08:07
`
` motion and a stay motion in the litigation.
`
` The stay motion was granted on February 19th
`
` and the transfer motion was granted on April
`
` 22nd.
`
` The patent owners filed a short motion 08:07
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` for reconsideration and that's currently 08:07
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` being briefed. But the case remains stayed
`
` and there is no substantive litigation
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` activity taking place. There is no current
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` case schedule, no trial date. 08:07
`
` And the transfer motion, I should have
`
` mentioned, was to the District of Delaware.
`
` And no judge has been assigned to the case
`
` in Delaware yet.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Okay. Thank you. 08:08
`
` Does patent owner agree with the
`
` petitioner's summary of the case?
`
` MR. HURT: Yes, Your Honor, that's
`
` generally correct. I think the only finer
`
` point I would add is, as petitioner 08:08
`
` mentioned, there is a motion for
`
` reconsideration pending.
`
` I believe the Eastern District of
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` Texas Court has not actually formally
`
` transferred the case over to Delaware yet. 08:08
`
` The motion was granted but
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` administratively the case has not moved over
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` to that district.
`
` But petitioner's summary was accurate.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Thank you. 08:08
`
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` Also, petitioner/patent owner have 08:08
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` identified counsel as back up that do not
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` have a registration number.
`
` Taking a quick look, it seems as
`
` though the pro hoc vice motions have not 08:08
`
` been filed yet in all the cases.
`
` I just want to check with the parties.
`
` Are you planning to file those motions soon?
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Yes, this is John
`
` Lindsay for petitioner. And, yes, we will 08:09
`
` file those very soon.
`
` MR. HURT: Yes, Your Honor. This is
`
` Christian Hurt for patent owner. We plan to
`
` file the pro hoc vice.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Thank you. 08:09
`
` Do the parties have anything else that
`
` you would like to discuss today?
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Your Honor, just one
`
` small housekeeping item. The day after we
`
` filed the petitions, we noticed that the CV 08:09
`
` for Dr. Nielson, Exhibit 1011 across all
`
` IPRs, had been inadvertently omitted. And
`
` we've served that document, the corrected
`
` exhibit, with the CV on patent owner and
`
` contacted the Board. 08:10
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` We were instructed that we should wait 08:10
`
` until a panel had been assigned because we
`
` were seeking permission to replace the
`
` incorrect exhibit with the corrected exhibit
`
` with, again, the only correction being the 08:10
`
` attached Exhibit A was a CV.
`
` And so we would ask that we be able to
`
` do that now at this point.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Does patent owner oppose?
`
` MR. HURT: No, Your Honor. 08:10
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Okay. Petitioner, you're
`
` authorized to file the CV.
`
` Anything else?
`
` MR. LINDSAY: Not for petitioner.
`
` MR. HURT: Nothing else from the 08:11
`
` patent owner either.
`
` PTAB JUDGE: Thank you to both
`
` parties. I'll follow up with an order. We
`
` are adjourned.
`
` (Proceedings concluded at 8:13 a.m.) 08:12
`
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` I, LYNNE M. LEDANOIS, a Certified
`
` Shorthand Reporter of the State of
`
` California, do hereby certify:
`
` That the foregoing proceedings were
`
` taken before me at the time and place herein set
`
` forth; that a record of the proceedings was made
`
` by me using machine shorthand which was
`
` thereafter transcribed under my direction; that
`
` the foregoing transcript is a true record of the
`
` proceedings.
`
` I further certify I am neither
`
` financially interested in the action nor a
`
` relative or employee of any attorney or party
`
` to this action.
`
` IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have this date
`
` subscribed my name.
`
` Dated: this 22 day of May, 2020.
`
` <%6954,Signature%>
`
` LYNNE MARIE LEDANOIS
`
` CSR No. 6811
`
`Page 12
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`[& - dr]
`
`&
`
`& 2:6
`
`1
`1011 10:21
`19th 8:22
`2
`2019-01469 5:12
`2020 1:16 3:1
`12:18
`2020-585 3:5
`21 1:16 3:1
`213 2:21
`22 12:18
`22nd 8:24
`230 2:22
`230-9090 2:24
`3
`325 4:13 7:8
`4
`400 2:11
`4120982 1:25
`5
`
`585 8:9
`586 3:5
`587 3:5
`590 3:5
`591 3:5
`592 3:6
`
`6
`6 5:12 8:18
`6811 1:24 12:25
`6954 12:23
`7
`75601 2:23
`760-0991 2:13
`
`8
`8,694,683 1:10
`840 2:10
`8:02 3:2
`8:13 11:20
`9
`903 2:24
`92660 2:12
`949 2:13
`a
`a.m. 3:2 11:20
`ability 6:15
`able 11:7
`accurate 9:24
`action 12:12,14
`activity 9:4
`add 9:15
`address 5:21 6:15
`7:8,14,21
`addressed 5:25
`7:7
`addresses 7:4
`addressing 7:23
`adjourned 11:19
`administratively
`9:22
`advanced 5:9 6:23
`7:1,15
`agree 9:11
`albeit 6:2
`amount 7:21
`appeal 1:2
`appeals 1:15 2:3
`appearances 2:1
`april 8:23
`argument 4:13
`arranged 3:25
`assigned 9:8 11:2
`assist 5:14
`
`attached 11:6
`attorney 12:13
`attorneys 2:9,20
`authorized 11:12
`aware 6:21
`b
`
`b 4:13
`back 10:2
`based 6:17
`beach 2:12
`becton 7:2
`behalf 3:20
`believe 7:10,16
`9:18
`bionics 5:9 6:23
`7:1,16
`board 1:2,15 2:3
`6:5 7:19 10:25
`briefed 6:25 9:2
`briefing 7:21
`c
`c.s.r. 1:24
`california 2:12
`12:3
`call 3:15 4:5,8
`case 1:10 5:11,15
`7:23 8:9 9:2,5,8
`9:12,20,22
`cases 10:6
`cause 5:8
`center 2:10
`certified 12:1
`certify 12:3,11
`chance 6:11
`check 10:7
`checkpoint 6:2,16
`chose 5:22
`christian 2:19
`3:19 10:13
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-826-0277
`
`churt 2:25
`concluded 11:20
`consistent 7:18
`contacted 10:25
`correct 4:18,20
`8:18 9:14
`corrected 10:23
`11:4
`correction 11:5
`counsel 6:10 10:2
`course 4:6 5:17,23
`court 3:21 4:1 7:8
`9:19
`csr 12:25
`current 9:4
`currently 9:1
`cv 10:20,24 11:6
`11:12
`
`d
`
`d 7:8
`date 8:17 9:5
`12:15
`dated 12:18
`david 2:8 3:16
`davis 2:18 3:19
`davisfirm.com
`2:25
`day 10:19 12:18
`decision 5:9,18
`decisions 7:19
`delaware 9:7,9,20
`details 6:1 8:3
`dickinson 7:2
`direction 12:8
`discuss 10:17
`district 8:10,17
`9:7,18,23
`dmcphie 2:15
`document 10:23
`dr 10:21
`
`Page 1
`
`Juniper Ex. 1058-p. 13
`Juniper v Implicit
`IPR2020-00590
`
`

`

`[drive - number]
`
`drive 2:10
`e
`eastern 8:9,16
`9:18
`either 11:16
`email 4:9,14
`employee 12:13
`evidence 7:11
`examination 6:18
`exhibit 4:5 10:21
`10:24 11:4,4,6
`expected 6:4
`extent 6:7
`f
`fact 6:20 7:8
`factors 7:2,4
`familiar 5:4,15
`far 6:3
`february 8:22
`file 4:4,10 5:8 10:8
`10:11,14 11:12
`filed 5:20,24 6:19
`8:19,20,25 10:6,20
`filings 7:23
`financially 12:12
`finer 9:14
`firm 2:18 3:19
`five 7:20
`follow 11:18
`foregoing 12:4,9
`formally 9:19
`forth 12:6
`fredonia 2:21
`further 12:11
`g
`generally 9:14
`gianetti 3:10
`give 6:11
`given 7:6,22
`
`going 7:10
`good 3:23
`granted 8:22,23
`9:21
`greater 6:7
`h
`heard 6:6
`hearing 1:14
`helpful 5:16 8:1
`hoc 10:5,14
`honor 3:18 4:3,19
`6:13 8:15 9:13
`10:12,18 11:10
`housekeeping
`10:19
`hurt 2:19 3:18,19
`6:13 7:25 9:13
`10:12,13 11:10,15
`i
`identified 8:16
`10:2
`implicit 1:7 3:9,20
`inadvertently
`10:22
`incorporated 3:8
`incorrect 11:4
`incorrectly 6:3
`indicated 4:14
`initial 6:14
`instructed 11:1
`inter 6:18
`interested 12:12
`ipr 3:5 5:12
`ipr2020-00585
`1:10
`iprs 10:22
`irell 2:6
`irell.com 2:14,15
`issue 6:14,23,24
`7:22
`
`issues 6:1 7:15
`item 10:19
`j
`
`j 2:19
`jlindsay 2:14
`job 1:25
`john 10:9
`joined 6:24
`jonathan 2:7 3:13
`judge 3:4,17,21,25
`4:4,7,21 5:3,14
`6:10 7:24 8:1 9:8
`9:10,25 10:15
`11:9,11,17
`judges 2:3 3:10
`july 8:17
`juniper 1:4 3:7
`6:16,18 8:20
`k
`kahn 3:10
`know 5:4 6:24
`l
`law 2:9,20
`leave 4:9
`ledanois 1:24 3:24
`12:1,24
`length 4:23 6:9
`7:17
`limited 4:12 7:15
`7:20
`lindsay 2:7 3:13
`3:13 4:2,6,19,24
`5:7,17 6:17 8:14
`10:9,10,18 11:14
`line 3:11,22
`litigation 8:7,10
`8:13,16,21 9:3
`llc 1:7 3:9,20
`llp 2:6
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-826-0277
`
`longer 8:18
`longview 2:23
`look 10:4
`lynne 1:24 3:24
`12:1,24
`m
`m 1:24 2:7 12:1
`machine 12:7
`mandatory 8:11
`manella 2:6
`marie 12:24
`materially 5:1
`matter 4:12
`mcphie 2:8 3:15
`3:16
`mcshane 3:10
`mentioned 8:6 9:7
`9:16
`mentions 8:8
`months 5:19
`morning 3:23
`motion 8:21,21,22
`8:23,25 9:6,16,21
`motions 10:5,8
`moved 9:22
`n
`name 12:16
`narrow 7:21
`need 6:4
`neither 12:11
`networks 1:4 3:8
`new 6:20
`newport 2:10,12
`nielson 10:21
`north 2:21
`noticed 10:20
`notices 8:12
`number 10:3
`
`Page 2
`
`Juniper Ex. 1058-p. 14
`Juniper v Implicit
`IPR2020-00590
`
`

`

`[office - today]
`
`o
`office 1:1
`okay 5:7 7:24 9:10
`11:11
`omitted 10:22
`opportunity 5:21
`oppose 7:13 11:9
`opposed 4:21,25
`opposes 4:15
`opposition 6:14
`8:4
`order 11:18
`owner 1:8 2:17 3:8
`3:17 4:14,22 5:19
`6:6,11 9:11 10:1
`10:13,24 11:9,16
`owner's 4:11,13
`owners 8:25
`p
`pages 4:10 6:3
`7:20
`panel 11:2
`paper 5:12
`parallel 8:7
`part 7:3,4,5
`partes 6:18
`particular 6:2
`particularly 8:9
`parties 3:7 8:2
`10:7,16 11:18
`party 12:13
`patent 1:1,2,8,10
`1:15 2:3,17 3:8,17
`4:11,13,14,22 5:19
`6:6,11 8:25 9:11
`10:1,13,24 11:9,16
`pc 2:18
`pending 8:16 9:17
`permission 11:3
`
`petition 6:22,25
`8:8
`petitioner 1:5 2:5
`3:7,12,14,16 4:3,4
`4:9,16,21 6:8,25
`7:7 8:15,20 9:15
`10:1,10 11:11,14
`petitioner's 4:15
`4:23 9:12,24
`petitions 5:24 8:19
`10:20
`place 9:4 12:5
`plan 10:13
`planning 10:8
`point 9:15 11:8
`position 7:6,25
`precedential 5:10
`5:18,23
`preliminary 4:11
`5:20
`pro 10:5,14
`proceedings 11:20
`12:4,6,10
`proposed 7:20
`ptab 3:4,17,21,25
`4:4,7,21 5:3,14
`6:10 7:24 8:1 9:10
`9:25 10:15 11:9
`11:11,17
`q
`question 6:15 8:5
`quick 10:4
`r
`really 6:4
`reason 5:2,22,25
`7:13
`reasons 5:8
`rebuttal 4:13
`reconsideration
`9:1,17
`
`record 5:3,5,12,15
`7:9,12 12:6,9
`reference 6:2,16
`referred 6:17
`reflect 6:9
`regarding 3:5 8:3
`8:6,12
`registration 10:3
`relative 6:8 12:13
`remains 9:2
`remote 2:1
`rephrased 7:3
`replace 11:3
`reply 4:10,22,23
`4:25 5:9 6:9 7:11
`7:13,14,17
`reported 1:24
`reporter 3:22,23
`4:1 12:2
`representing 3:12
`request 4:15,17
`8:3
`requesting 4:9
`respect 6:8
`respond 6:12
`response 4:11 5:20
`reviewing 7:9
`s
`
`save 5:5
`schedule 9:5
`second 5:25 8:12
`seeking 11:3
`seen 7:19
`sent 4:9
`served 10:23
`set 12:5
`seven 4:10
`sharing 8:2
`short 8:25
`shorter 5:1
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-826-0277
`
`shorthand 12:2,7
`sides 6:14 7:22
`signature 12:23
`six 7:4
`small 10:19
`soon 10:8,11
`start 4:16
`starting 4:8
`state 12:2
`states 1:1
`stay 8:21,22
`stayed 9:2
`street 2:21
`subject 4:12
`subscribed 12:16
`substantive 9:3
`suite 2:11,22
`summary 4:17
`9:12,24
`sur 4:22,25 6:9
`7:17
`
`t
`taken 12:5
`takes 7:2
`talking 7:12
`technical 6:1
`telephonic 1:14
`tell 5:2
`test 7:3,5
`texas 2:23 8:10,17
`9:19
`thank 4:7 6:10 8:2
`9:10,25 10:15
`11:17
`things 7:16
`think 4:25 5:8 6:5
`9:14
`thursday 1:16 3:1
`time 5:6 6:21 12:5
`today 3:4,12 4:8
`10:17
`
`Page 3
`
`Juniper Ex. 1058-p. 15
`Juniper v Implicit
`IPR2020-00590
`
`

`

`[topic - witness]
`
`topic 6:6
`trademark 1:1
`transcribed 12:8
`transcript 4:5
`12:9
`transfer 8:20,23
`9:6
`transferred 9:20
`trial 1:2,15 2:3
`8:17 9:5
`true 12:9
`two 5:19 7:3,5
`u
`u.s. 1:10
`understanding 7:1
`united 1:1
`update 8:6,11,14
`v
`
`v 1:6
`vice 10:5,14
`view 6:24
`w
`wait 11:1
`want 10:7
`we've 10:23
`whereof 12:15
`witness 12:15
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-826-0277
`
`Page 4
`
`Juniper Ex. 1058-p. 16
`Juniper v Implicit
`IPR2020-00590
`
`